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Supreme Court dismisses Pledge of Allegiance case

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DarienA

The black man everyone at Activision can agree on
teepo said:
the under god part has always pissed me off. maybe because of the fact of being a muslim when i was a kid to turning athiest during my middle school years.

I still don't get that... God is a pretty generic term... why as a child didn't you simply associate God with the word Allah? Allah is God, God is Allah. Simply because the pledge uses the word God instead of Allah? (I hope we don't start another thread on people thinking these are two different beings...)

By the way someone mentioned in passing "unless the plddge is considered praying"... I'd like to explore that.

To pray as defined by the Websters dictionary is:

1 a (1) : an address (as a petition) to God or a god in word or thought <said a prayer for the success of the voyage> (2) : a set order of words used in praying b : an earnest request or wish

You don't petition or request anything of the flag.

To pledge as defined by Websters is:

6 a: a binding promise or agreement to do or forbear b (1) : a promise to join a fraternity, sorority, or secret society (2) : a person who has so promised

Discuss.
 
"I still don't get that... God is a pretty generic term... why as a child didn't you simply associate God with the word Allah?"


Even though it doesn't specify, I think we all know it really says "one nation under the one true Christian God". It was written with that in mind, and they didn't leave it vague to allow for other faiths, as much as we would like to think other faiths can "pretend" that it is inclusive. It's not.
 

darscot

Member
Ok let me get this straight.

In th US kids still do this weird ritual?

Second you must stand during it? Or can you sit if you want but it's rude.

You in no way have to take part in it?

I fail to see the problem with it or am I missing something? I don't understand why this is in court or what the courts would have anything to do with it. Unless off course you actually force a child to say it or stand during it. If that's the case that's pretty messed up as how the hell can you consider yoruselves free but force a kid do something like this?
 

Phoenix

Member
Matt said:
Excuse me, I meant school-run prayer. My bad.

Well there is one last case that I wanted to bring up which somewhat hilights a key issue. Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe. In this case a student was leading a prayer in the school ( not a government employee ) and this was struck down by the supreme court. So essentially this is where I go back to my whole slippery slope on prayer in public schools. While the courts don't really have any rulings that say specifically that you cannot pray in public school - even if you are a student and want to pray with other like minded students (especially if they are the majority) you won't be able to.

This is one of those things that I'm on the border about. I'm all for saying that you should be able to force someone else to pray, but when you get to the point where you're saying that others around you shouldn't even know you're praying because they'd feel left out (and this being non sponsored by the state but happening on public property) I have issues with that.
 

DarienA

The black man everyone at Activision can agree on
Mega Man's Electric Sheep said:
"I still don't get that... God is a pretty generic term... why as a child didn't you simply associate God with the word Allah?"


Even though it doesn't specify, I think we all know it really says "one nation under the one true Christian God". It was written with that in mind, and they didn't leave it vague to allow for other faiths, as much as we would like to think other faiths can "pretend" that it is inclusive. It's not.

Ok but we know that we don't live in a Christian only country... especially if you yourself don't practice the Christian religion AND live in this country. This country SUPPOSEDLY accepts all religions, races, creeds, etc.... so I don't see the problem. You (the person saying the pledge), know which "form of God" you represent in this nation.

Then why did they leave it vague?

As a slight aside.. the fact that this other matter had to go to a lawsuit where even the Justice Department joined the side suing... is ridiculous.
 
How would you have liked them to make it more specific? "One nation under God, the real God, not all those fake ones, you dig? The Big Guy, Jesus' Old Man, and we allow for no substitutions" :)

It's only vague because people want to pretend it's inclusive to argue against any complaints that it is not. It's not that vague to me.
 

Matt

Member
Phoenix said:
Well there is one last case that I wanted to bring up which somewhat hilights a key issue. Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe. In this case a student was leading a prayer in the school ( not a government employee ) and this was struck down by the supreme court. So essentially this is where I go back to my whole slippery slope on prayer in public schools. While the courts don't really have any rulings that say specifically that you cannot pray in public school - even if you are a student and want to pray with other like minded students (especially if they are the majority) you won't be able to.

This is one of those things that I'm on the border about. I'm all for saying that you should be able to force someone else to pray, but when you get to the point where you're saying that others around you shouldn't even know you're praying because they'd feel left out (and this being non sponsored by the state but happening on public property) I have issues with that.
Man, I brought that up many posts back, and like Clausen, you have it a little wrong. In SFISD v. Doe, students voted on who they wanted the school to find for them to speak before their football games. The kids always voted for priests, who always spoke on religious matters. This violated the establishment clause in the same way Lee v. Weisman did. That case just proved that the school can’t have a had in preforming any religious speaking in school or for school functions.
 

IJoel

Member
Mega Man's Electric Sheep said:
How would you have liked them to make it more specific? "One nation under God, the real God, not all those fake ones, you dig? The Big Guy, Jesus' Old Man, and we allow for no substitutions" :)

It's only vague because people want to pretend it's inclusive to argue against any complaints that it is not. It's not that vague to me.

hahaha... this is so very true. The hypocrisy of it all.
 

Dilbert

Member
DarienA said:
I still don't get that... God is a pretty generic term...
"God" is not a generic term, as long as it's capitalized -- that indicates a proper noun. If you want to make it lowercase, then I'll believe that it's generic.

However, it still wouldn't get around the fact that in order to pledge allegiance to the country, you ALSO have to acknowledge that you believe in a god, singular. If you believe in gods, plural, or no gods at all, you're still assed out.
 

NLB2

Banned
I guess I'm the only one who gets pissed off more at the "pledge allegiance" than the "under god" part.

Allegiance is the obligation of a vasal to a lord. What the fuck? This isn't 13th century europe. I don't pledge allegiance to anyone or anything.
 

FightyF

Banned
Allah is the Arabic word for the God who created Adam and Eve. It refers to what Christians refer to as the Heavenly father.

It's essentially the same God believed by Muslims, Jews and Christians. That God created the Universe, created Adam and Eve, sent them to Earth, etc. They differ on other beliefs dealing with the importance of a few people. With that in mind, there wouldn't be much debate as far as that goes (though I do expect the unknowledgable portions of the population to debate that since they don't know anything about other faiths.

But what if you don't believe in that God? What if you don't believe in any God? I think if you focus on switching the "God" with "Allah", "Heavenly Father" or another name for God, is diverting ourselves from the real issue here.
 

Matt

Member
-jinx- said:
"God" is not a generic term, as long as it's capitalized -- that indicates a proper noun. If you want to make it lowercase, then I'll believe that it's generic.

However, it still wouldn't get around the fact that in order to pledge allegiance to the country, you ALSO have to acknowledge that you believe in a god, singular. If you believe in gods, plural, or no gods at all, you're still assed out.
I already stated that:

The legal reason why “Under God” can be defended in the Pledge is that “God” is stated to be a very broad term, so therefore it can mean anything that is of upmost importance to an individual. For example, if I don’t believe in a god-like entity (like Allah,) and instead I worship liberty, then liberty itself is my God.

Now, it's crap, but the law none the less.
 

Dilbert

Member
NLB2 said:
What if we define god as that which nothing greater can be concieved. This really is not a negation as it is equivilent to that which is the greatest thing that can be concieved. This would give attributes to god such as omnipotence, which is the ability to do all that is possible (there is no negation here), and omniscience, which is knowing all that is the case (once again there is no negation). You write that god is not limited in his knowledge. I write that god knows all that is the case. They say the same thing, do they not? What's the difference? Why is saying that god knows all that is the case ill-formed?
Comparing this to a shirt that is "not blue" is wrong. We should instead compare this to a shirt that is "not any color other than blue." That is a more similar statement.

sorry for rambling.

Anyway, from the definition of god you can say that god exists. It is greater to exist in actuality than the mind alone and, since god is the greatest possible being (and it is possible for god to exist) god must exist in both the mind and actuality.
Congratulations -- you're just reinvented St. Anselm's argument. In fact, since you're using terms like "greater," I suspect that you've been whacked over the head with some scholastic philosophy before. :)

Among the many possible responses to that line of reasoning:

1) You define "God" as "that which nothing greater can be conceived." Since we (and our minds) are limited, how can you conclude that "greater than we can conceive" is the same thing as "the greatest possible idea?" We do not have a clear idea of what "infinite" is. We define it as "something which is unbounded." We can conceive of something bounded, and have very many experiences of such things. But we have no direct experience of anything being unbounded -- we are extrapolating from our known experiences to imagine what "NOT bounded" must be like.

2) You have chosen to DEFINE God in a certain way, but there is nothing in the definition which makes it logically necessary for "God" to exist. Writing a definition does not cause something to exist.

3) At even more of a root level: On what grounds can having existence be said to be "greater" than not existing? For that matter, what is meant when you use the term "greater?"
 

SD-Ness

Member
I guess I'm the only one who gets pissed off more at the "pledge allegiance" than the "under god" part.

Allegiance is the obligation of a vasal to a lord. What the fuck? This isn't 13th century europe. I don't pledge allegiance to anyone or anything.
You should be loyal to your country and be faithful towards it.

One can break allegiance though.
 

NLB2

Banned
-jinx- said:
Congratulations -- you're just reinvented St. Anselm's argument. In fact, since you're using terms like "greater," I suspect that you've been whacked over the head with some scholastic philosophy before. :)

Should I have given credit to Anselm? I thought most would recognize this as his ontological argument.

-jinx- said:
Among the many possible responses to that line of reasoning:

1) You define "God" as "that which nothing greater can be conceived." Since we (and our minds) are limited, how can you conclude that "greater than we can conceive" is the same thing as "the greatest possible idea?" We do not have a clear idea of what "infinite" is. We define it as "something which is unbounded." We can conceive of something bounded, and have very many experiences of such things. But we have no direct experience of anything being unbounded -- we are extrapolating from our known experiences to imagine what "NOT bounded" must be like.

Ok, then let's define god as that which nothing greater is possible. :)
I don't understand what any of the stuff about infinite is for. From that we finite humans cannot experience something infinite it does not follow that an infinte being cannot exist nor does it mean we cannot have knowledge of an infinite being, after all, not all knowledge comes from experience.

-jinx- said:
2) You have chosen to DEFINE God in a certain way, but there is nothing in the definition which makes it logically necessary for "God" to exist.
umm... where's the formal fallacy in Anselm's argument? Or, better yet, the modal version of it? The argument seems very much to be valid.
-jinx- said:
Writing a definition does not cause something to exist.
Why not? Kant?

-jinx- said:
3) At even more of a root level: On what grounds can having existence be said to be "greater" than not existing? For that matter, what is meant when you use the term "greater?"
Now here's a good question. And I'll attempt to answer it as best as I can. Let's take an example of rocks. There are two rocks of the same type and density. They are exactly the same except that rock a is two kg and rock b is only one kg. Certainly rock a is greater than rock b. Now, lets say all of the energy from rock a is converted into energy - certainly now rock b is greater than rock a because rock a has ceased existing. Rock a's become purely energy and is no longer a rock. Something that exists is greater than something that does not exist. I'm not sure if this is sufficient, but its the best I can come up with at the present.
 

maharg

idspispopd
NLB2 said:
Now here's a good question. And I'll attempt to answer it as best as I can. Let's take an example of rocks. There are two rocks of the same type and density. They are exactly the same except that rock a is two kg and rock b is only one kg. Certainly rock a is greater than rock b. Now, lets say all of the energy from rock a is converted into energy - certainly now rock b is greater than rock a because rock a has ceased existing. Rock a's become purely energy and is no longer a rock. Something that exists is greater than something that does not exist. I'm not sure if this is sufficient, but its the best I can come up with at the present.

Wouldn't converting the rock entirely to energy basically result in an explosion sufficient to vaporize the other rock? ;)
 

DarienA

The black man everyone at Activision can agree on
-jinx- said:
"God" is not a generic term, as long as it's capitalized -- that indicates a proper noun. If you want to make it lowercase, then I'll believe that it's generic.

However, it still wouldn't get around the fact that in order to pledge allegiance to the country, you ALSO have to acknowledge that you believe in a god, singular. If you believe in gods, plural, or no gods at all, you're still assed out.

Sorry God generic in being that whether you are Christian, Muslim etc you believe in God. Enlightened folks in those different religions will also tell you it is the same God. They simply have different belief systems surrounding how they commune with God. Hence my previous statement Allah is God, God is Allah.
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
The lot of you should know better and realize that trying to convince Gunther otherwise is like trying to get a wall to stop standing by simply speaking to it in a stern tone.

Here's some food for thought, half-literally:

At my alma mater, the dining halls were controlled by whatever tentacle of the Marriott empire scrapes up what food they don't sell in the hotels, and sells it to educational institutions at what I'd assume to be a rate that insures a hefty profit margin.

Now, During my sophomore year, a new policy was put in place for all french fries, whether they be waffle, crinkle-cut, steak, shoestring, or my personal favorite: the tater tot. That policy was to salt all of the fries before putting them out in the buffets of the various dining halls. If you'd like unsalted fries, you have to ask for a special batch to be made just for you, or option B was to skip the fries entirely.

There was an uproar, to say the least. You have to understand that my school was filled with very logical people, having a rather heavy slant towards engineering will do that. You couldn't go a day with at least one comment card being dropped in the suggestion boxes saying that the new policy defied all reason; that it simply made more sense to offer the fries plain, and let anyone who'd like salted fries to add their own. The standard response - the only response - was that the policy was clear: Fries were to be salted, and anyone who objected could order a special batch, or not eat them at all.

There was simply no negotiation on the issue.

The debate on the Pledge of Allegiance is the exact same dilemma, the original wording, by the way, written by a Baptist Minister. It was written without the phrasing "under God" which created a quite secular, neutral oath of loyalty to the country. Then, in a fit of Communist hysteria, "under God" was added in the mid 1950s, forcing anyone who didn't believe in the God that's implied, or athiests/agnostics, to simply relegate themselves to saying nothing if they felt it was their spiritual obligation to do so. The proper argument that should be made is that the addition alienates people; it forces them to recognize a religious undertone to the country that they may not necessarily want to acknowledge for whatever reason, with the only alternative not being able to pledge allegiance at all. Whereas the original let everyone play in the figurative reindeer games.

Unfortunately, it seems that there are those in this country who are hell bent on making sure Christianity, its denominations, and politics do sleep together whenever possible; they don't seem to recognize that this country has a few more religions in it these days, as well as people who don't subscribe to any one religion at all.

And those people can't tell the line cook to fry up a new batch.
 
It was the right decision by the courts, and not because Newdow is an atheist who feels he is being victimized, but because he was trying to use the highest court to settle a familial dispute. Now if it were possible that a kid felt victimized by saying that the pledge goes against his beliefs there could be an argument made, however that just opens up an entirely new can of worms that I'm pretty sure nobody wants to deal with at the moment.

Oh, and here's an exciting article about politics and religion:

UNITED STATES

Lexington

Belief and the ballot box

Jun 3rd 2004
From The Economist print edition








Religion affects politics in subtler ways than you may think

FOR years, the dominant story about religion in American politics concerned the religious right. White evangelical Protestants aligned themselves with the Republican Party and formed a large part, maybe a fifth or a sixth, of the Republican coalition. Evangelicals thought of themselves as outside the mainstream, alternatively disgusted by it and called upon to change it. So when religious concerns emerged in the public sphere, they seemed to present a clash between evangelicals and the rest of America, all mediated by intra-Republican-Party politics.

This view is looking more and more dubious. Increasingly, the defining political-cum-religious conflict in America is between aggressive Republican evangelicals on the one hand and an equally aggressive Democratic group of secularists on the other. Yet at the same time, the manner in which people worship, and their attitudes towards their faith, are becoming more important in determining people's politics than their denomination alone (whether they are evangelical, or Catholic, or what-not). In politics, these trends are pulling in opposite directions.



United States

Religion

US Election 2004

Click to buy from Amazon.com: “The Two Americas”, by Stan Greenberg (Amazon.co.uk).

ReligionLink posts a guide to religion in the 2004 elections. See also the campaign websites of George Bush and John Kerry.





The evangelicals' support for Republicans has not changed. Indeed, it has grown, as evangelicals come to recognise George Bush (formally a member of the mainline Protestant Methodists) as one of their own. According to a new survey of voting intentions by John Green of the University of Akron, 77% of evangelicals say they will vote for Mr Bush, easily the highest level of support for the president among any large group of voters.

At the same time, an almost precisely corresponding group of voters is emerging on the Democratic side. This is the secular left: people who say they are not affiliated with any church and who never, or hardly ever, set foot in one. Three-quarters of those who describe themselves as atheists or agnostics back John Kerry. This looks much like the 2000 election campaign, when the number of times you went to church was the single best predictor of which candidate you would vote for.

In his recent book, “The Two Americas” (St Martin's), Stan Greenberg, Bill Clinton's old poll-sifter, describes secular voters as “the true loyalists” of the Democratic Party. They are second only to blacks in their party affiliation and on social issues, such as health care, taxes and education. On cultural issues—gun-control, immigration—they are more reliably Democratic than blacks. They account, according to Mr Greenberg, for about 15% of the Democratic base, a fraction below the share of white Protestants in the Republican base.

The close association of secular voters with the Democrats is actually a problem for the party. Over 90% of Americans say they believe in God and two-thirds claim to be members of a church. Secularists are a minority, albeit a growing one. Moreover, while religious intolerance has more or less disappeared from American politics, there is one exception. Voters do not like atheists: 41% say they would never vote for one, far more than say they would not vote for an evangelical, Catholic or Jew. No wonder the Catholic Mr Kerry has been loudly proclaiming his faith, even though he would be banned from communion in the diocese of Colorado Springs for supporting abortion choice.

Traditionalists, centrists, modernists
If you look at the extremes of the political spectrum, therefore, you see a clash of evangelicals against secularists, of religion against irreligion. That is worrying for Democrats. But if you look across the whole spectrum you see a different pattern, one with chances for Democrats and some risks for Republicans.

The University of Akron's survey divides up religion in America not just by denomination but according to adherents' attitudes to doctrine and belief. All evangelicals, for example, emphasise personal salvation, Biblical literalism and spreading the word of God. But not all do so to the same degree. Those who express the firmest confidence in their doctrine, and who go to church most frequently, are labelled “traditionalists”. Those who express the most doubts or who go to church infrequently are “modernists”. In between is a group of “centrists”. The same divisions are made for Catholics and mainstream Protestant denominations, such as Methodists and Lutherans.

The new study shows a striking alignment between religious attitudes and politics. In the ranking of support for President Bush, evangelicals do not come first followed by mainstream Protestants and Catholics (traditionally part of the Democratic base). Rather, all the traditionalists come first, then all the centrists, and lastly the modernists. Traditionalists of different denominations have more in common with one another than with members of the same denomination. And the same holds true for centrists and modernists.

Thus if you take Mr Bush's net job approval (those who say he is doing an “excellent” or “good” job minus the “poor” and “very poor” ratings), you find the range among evangelicals is wide, 57 points. Among mainstream believers it is even wider, 68 points. But between the various traditionalists it is only 23 points, between the centrists 22 and, among the modernists, just 16. In politics, it seems, religious attitude trumps denomination.

And that contains good news for Democrats. In the middle of the spectrum you find the swing voters of faith, the religious equivalent to purple states. Centrist mainstream Protestants support Mr Bush by a few points. Centrist Catholics and modernist evangelicals support Mr Kerry by the same narrow margin. In all, these are nearly a fifth of all voters.

If Democrats become the party of secularists, they are doomed to a minority existence and Republicans will become, by default, a majority party based on religion. But that is not inevitable. The new battleground of American politics is about religious attitudes as much as affiliation. And here Democrats can be as competitive as Republicans.
 

DarienA

The black man everyone at Activision can agree on
I'm curious has anyone ever seen any figures to breakdown estimates on how many Atheists there are in the US vs. those who practice religion?
 
The REAL question is: why is it so important to YOU that other people say "under God"?

Nothing prevents you from adding it in, either quietly or volubly. Or perhaps you're like the atheists and the less-evangelistic: afraid of being singled out for your beliefs? We're all Americans, so I can understand the Pledge itself, but not everyone is a devout orthodox Christian.

That said, while I'm hoping that the phrase will be pulled from the Pledge, this was NOT the appropriate case to do so.
 
Drinky Crow said:
The REAL question is: why is it so important to YOU that other people say "under God"?

No, the REAL question is: why do people even say the Pledge at all? Perhaps the wisest thing for the courts to do is to strike it from the law. Therefore, no one has to say it.

I'm glad that you don't have to say it in high school or college, but it is silly to make elementary school kids say it. However, if my kid wants to say it, by all means say it.
 

Phoenix

Member
xsarien said:
It was written without the phrasing "under God" which created a quite secular, neutral oath of loyalty to the country.

Correction, it wasn't written as an oath of loyalty to the country. The original wording pledged allegience to 'my flag' and was intended to be entirely generic and not specifically for this country. The pledge of allegience wasn't even a national thing until 1942 (and guess what was going on at that time) and had just as much nationalism around its acceptance then as the changes which occurred 12 years later.
 

Phoenix

Member
Evolution VIII said:
No, the REAL question is: why do people even say the Pledge at all? Perhaps the wisest thing for the courts to do is to strike it from the law. Therefore, no one has to say it.

That's easy, its not IN the law to begin with and no one HAS to say it to start off with.
 

Dilbert

Member
Phoenix said:
That's easy, its not IN the law to begin with and no one HAS to say it to start off with.
Yes, but what about the oath of citizenship which naturalized citizens MUST swear to?
"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the armed forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."
There is that pesky "God" word popping up again. It's a much bigger issue than the (non-mandatory) Pledge of Allegiance. The term "God" is all over the place...hell, it's even on our MONEY.
 

Dilbert

Member
DarienA said:
Sorry God generic in being that whether you are Christian, Muslim etc you believe in God. Enlightened folks in those different religions will also tell you it is the same God. They simply have different belief systems surrounding how they commune with God. Hence my previous statement Allah is God, God is Allah.
Actually, that statement (namely, that all "gods" are the same, just under different names) is a separate kind of belief which isn't contained in any of the religious doctrines that I'm familiar with. Consider the Nicene Creed that Catholics say in Mass every Sunday: "We believe in one God, the Father Almighty"...bunch of other stuff...and then this statement of ontology: "God from God, light from light, true God from true God." That statement pretty clearly implies that not everyone's god is a "true" god.

But the core problem still remains: "God" with a capital G still refers to a SPECIFIC god, not a general one, and I don't care how the f?cking courts want to spin their interpretation. A proper noun is a proper noun -- I've been reading English all my life. Further, not every god maps neatly to a monotheistic concept. It may be convenient that there are a lot of similarities between God, Allah, and Yahweh...but you're not going to map other kinds of religious beliefs into that single entity.
 

DarienA

The black man everyone at Activision can agree on
-jinx- said:
Actually, that statement (namely, that all "gods" are the same, just under different names) is a separate kind of belief which isn't contained in any of the religious doctrines that I'm familiar with. Consider the Nicene Creed that Catholics say in Mass every Sunday: "We believe in one God, the Father Almighty"...bunch of other stuff...and then this statement of ontology: "God from God, light from light, true God from true God." That statement pretty clearly implies that not everyone's god is a "true" god.

But the core problem still remains: "God" with a capital G still refers to a SPECIFIC god, not a general one, and I don't care how the f?cking courts want to spin their interpretation. A proper noun is a proper noun -- I've been reading English all my life. Further, not every god maps neatly to a monotheistic concept. It may be convenient that there are a lot of similarities between God, Allah, and Yahweh...but you're not going to map other kinds of religious beliefs into that single entity.

If you were to speak to most Reverands, Pastors, (insert appropriate title) today as well as theocratical scholars and would(let's get specific) ask them if Allah and God were one and the same... you'd generally get the answer that use they are. Religious Doctines on a whole generally tend to skirt the issue of acknowledging other religions let alone speaking about the relationships between different religions.
 

Dilbert

Member
DarienA said:
If you were to speak to most Reverands, Pastors, (insert appropriate title) today as well as theocratical scholars and would(let's get specific) ask them if Allah and God were one and the same... you'd generally get the answer that use they are. Religious Doctines on a whole generally tend to skirt the issue of acknowledging other religions let alone speaking about the relationships between different religions.
But what about Brahman? There are an AWFUL lot of gods/avatars in Hinduism. What about polytheistic religions such as some of those practiced by Native Americans? Heck, even the Catholic conception of its god as 3-in-1 is WAY different than the truly monotheistic views of Islam and Judaism.
 

TAJ

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
>>>There is that pesky "God" word popping up again. It's a much bigger issue than the (non-mandatory) Pledge of Allegiance. The term "God" is all over the place...hell, it's even on our MONEY.<<<

Money IS God.
 

FightyF

Banned
-jinx- said:
Actually, that statement (namely, that all "gods" are the same, just under different names) is a separate kind of belief which isn't contained in any of the religious doctrines that I'm familiar with. Consider the Nicene Creed that Catholics say in Mass every Sunday: "We believe in one God, the Father Almighty"...bunch of other stuff...and then this statement of ontology: "God from God, light from light, true God from true God." That statement pretty clearly implies that not everyone's god is a "true" god.

But the core problem still remains: "God" with a capital G still refers to a SPECIFIC god, not a general one, and I don't care how the f?cking courts want to spin their interpretation. A proper noun is a proper noun -- I've been reading English all my life. Further, not every god maps neatly to a monotheistic concept. It may be convenient that there are a lot of similarities between God, Allah, and Yahweh...but you're not going to map other kinds of religious beliefs into that single entity.

Consider a few things:

1) These similarities go further than certain features or qualities, but certain actions have been credited to the same entity, though different names are used. If I talk about a Bill Shatner who not only looks a certain way, but has accomplished and is credited for acting in a television show called Star Trek acting as Captian Kirk, you know exactly who I'm talking about, though we are using different names. What we agree upon, is what he has accomplished, and thus we agree that despite the different names we know it is one and the same entity/person.

2) Allah, Yahweh, etc. are NAMES, referring to an entity. The fact that people of the Christian faith use ALL of these terms to describe their God, the fact that people of the Muslim faith use 2 of those terms to describe God, is very indicitive that their beliefs understand that these are simply different names referring to the same God. If it was the case that Christians did not use the term "Allah" to describe God, if it was the case the Muslims refused to say "God" to refer to Allah, I'd be inclined to agree with you -jinx-, but clearly that isn't the case.

Addition: After reading your post again, you did not imply that the 3 Abrahamic religions believed in different Gods, but rather that this cannot be applied to all of the world's religions. I agree, I misread your post. Sorry about that. Funny that I'm apologizing to someone known for misreading so many other posts :)

Anyways, I see this as a diversion from the real concern here. Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, and Athiests don't believe in the same God. They may not believe in one, they may believe in many. The phrase "one nation under God" is COMPLETELY unapplicable and alien to many.
 

DarienA

The black man everyone at Activision can agree on
-jinx- said:
But what about Brahman? There are an AWFUL lot of gods/avatars in Hinduism. What about polytheistic religions such as some of those practiced by Native Americans? Heck, even the Catholic conception of its god as 3-in-1 is WAY different than the truly monotheistic views of Islam and Judaism.

Lord Vishnu having multiple avatars doesn't really distract they are all simple multiple aspects of Vishnu's manfestation... Vishnu is still one god. In the Hindu religion is not Vishnu considered the creator? I'm not familiar enough with Brahman to comment. Even religions with multiple gods generally have one god acknowledge as being above the others. From what I've seen/read/heard.

Don't get me wrong in the end I think the statement needs to be removed from the pledge as well...just not through this case. I'm simply interested in exploring this avenue of thought.
 

FightyF

Banned
That is true DarienA. Also, from what I've learned from speaking with Native Americans is that there is a belief that everything comes down to 1 God, though it may seem polytheistic at first.

The thing is, we can't account for every religion in this manner. Plus, the same religions are differently interpreted by different people. Compare Coptics to Catholics, or Shi'ites to Sunnis...there is this widespread gradient of beleifs and I'm sure there are many that don't believe in strictly one God, even though it started out that way.
 

Mumbles

Member
DarienA said:
I'm curious has anyone ever seen any figures to breakdown estimates on how many Atheists there are in the US vs. those who practice religion?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/wtwtgod/3518375.stm

DarienA said:
If you were to speak to most Reverands, Pastors, (insert appropriate title) today as well as theocratical scholars and would(let's get specific) ask them if Allah and God were one and the same... you'd generally get the answer that use they are. Religious Doctines on a whole generally tend to skirt the issue of acknowledging other religions let alone speaking about the relationships between different religions.

Keep in mind, Darien, that the issue isn't what theologians think about God, but whether or not the pledge endorses a particular religion. The people who came up with the "Under God" part weren't thinking about being inclusive beyond other christians, and maybe Judaism.

(And to be blunt, I'd consider the "all gods are one" idea as primarily an attempt to put an end to the endless religious warts that have plagued mankind, but whatever...)

GuntherBait said:
Not flamming to turn this into a religious debate (as I too am a Christian...) but I hate to break it to the Atheists, but there is no pure/true atheist since if they denounce God, then they believe He exists to denounce, therefore, how can the pledge "distance" those who don't believe in Him simply because they say His name?

As has already been said, atheists don't believe in your god, or any other gods. It's your beliefs and religion that atheists may (or may not) denounce.

One more time - when I say "the conservative christian god is an evil tyrant", I mean it in the same sense as "Skeletor is a power-hungry incompetent". I don't believe in Skeletor or your god, I'm simply discussing the characters as described by the stories they are featured in.

NLB2 said:
Now here's a good question. And I'll attempt to answer it as best as I can. Let's take an example of rocks. There are two rocks of the same type and density. They are exactly the same except that rock a is two kg and rock b is only one kg. Certainly rock a is greater than rock b. Now, lets say all of the energy from rock a is converted into energy - certainly now rock b is greater than rock a because rock a has ceased existing. Rock a's become purely energy and is no longer a rock. Something that exists is greater than something that does not exist. I'm not sure if this is sufficient, but its the best I can come up with at the present.

Or we could say that rock a has transcended physical realm while retaining it's rocky essence or some such BS, and thus proclaim it "greater" than rock B. But the simple fact is, this is just begging the question. You've defined "god" to mean" greatest thing imaginable" , and "greatest thing imaginable" to mean "necessarily existing".

And there's also your jump from theoretical to actual existence. You're saying that "God is the greatest being that we can conceive of" contradicts "God does not exist". But we can call, say, Utopia as "the greatest place we can think of", but it clearly does not exist. In other words, if you want to establish that something exists, you're going to have to do so by examining what exists, not by examining the definition.

As to the ruling - I held out no real hope that the SC would uphold the lower court's ruling, so I'm neither surprised nor disappointed. Well, okay, I'm a bit dissapointed...
 

NLB2

Banned
Mumbles said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/wtwtgod/3518375.stm
Or we could say that rock a has transcended physical realm while retaining it's rocky essence or some such BS, and thus proclaim it "greater" than rock B. But the simple fact is, this is just begging the question. You've defined "god" to mean" greatest thing imaginable" , and "greatest thing imaginable" to mean "necessarily existing".

And there's also your jump from theoretical to actual existence. You're saying that "God is the greatest being that we can conceive of" contradicts "God does not exist". But we can call, say, Utopia as "the greatest place we can think of", but it clearly does not exist. In other words, if you want to establish that something exists, you're going to have to do so by examining what exists, not by examining the definition.

As to the ruling - I held out no real hope that the SC would uphold the lower court's ruling, so I'm neither surprised nor disappointed. Well, okay, I'm a bit dissapointed...
Hi Gaunilo,

Begging the question? Isn't it just a syllogism?
God is that which nothing greater than is possible.
Something that exists in actuality is greater than something that exists in the mind alone.
God exists in actuality.
And even if it is question begging, why does this matter? Sure you're defining something into existence but so what? This proof, if it is sound, doesn't really tell you much other than something that is perfect must exist in order to fulfill its place as being perfect. It doesn't really have any implications, religious or otherwise.

Also the utopian argument doesn't really work. The definition of god is greatest possible [i[thing[/i]. Your utopia still can have things greater than it because it is only the greatest place.
 

Phoenix

Member
Matt said:
Man, I brought that up many posts back, and like Clausen, you have it a little wrong. In SFISD v. Doe, students voted on who they wanted the school to find for them to speak before their football games. The kids always voted for priests, who always spoke on religious matters. This violated the establishment clause in the same way Lee v. Weisman did. That case just proved that the school can’t have a had in preforming any religious speaking in school or for school functions.

Nah, gotta catch you on this one so we're on the same page. I'll just quote from the finds of fact from the supreme court ruling.

Second, and of greatest significance to this case, for an undisclosed period of time leading up to and including the 1992-93 and 1993-94 school years, SFISD allowed students to read overtly Christian prayers from the stage at graduation ceremonies and over the public address system at home football games.3 The prayers were delivered as "invocations" or "benedictions" for these events, and typically were given by officers of the student council.

....

In the following month, acting in response to the Does' motion for a temporary restraining order regarding the imminent 1995 graduation ceremonies, the district court ruled that, consistent with SFISD's October Policy and our decision in Clear Creek II, student-selected, student-given, nonsectarian, nonproselytizing invocations and benedictions would be permitted, and that such invocations and benedictions could take the form of a "nondenominational prayer." Although cautioning that SFISD should play no role in selecting the students or scrutinizing and approving the content of the invocations and benedictions, the district court went on to note gratuitously that "generic prayers to the `Almighty', or to `God', or to `Our Heavenly Father (or Mother)', or the like, will of course be permitted. Reference to any particular deity, by name, such as Mohammed, Jesus, Buddha, or the like, will likewise be permitted, as long as the general thrust of the prayer is non-proselytizing, as required by [Clear Creek II]."

The election process came AFTER it was brought to the courts as a measure to resolve the issue.
 

Phoenix

Member
Evolution VIII said:
But I thought the Pledge was officially signed into law by Congress?

No, and it cannot be signed into law because it is not a law. In 1942 it was put into the US Flag Code - which is not a law. That code states:

Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 4

Sec. 4. - Pledge of allegiance to the flag; manner of delivery

The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag: ''I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.'', should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove any non-religious headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag, and render the military salute.

Additionally its important to note that the president is the one who changes the code


Sec. 10. - Modification of rules and customs by President

Any rule or custom pertaining to the display of the flag of the United States of America, set forth herein, may be altered, modified, or repealed, or additional rules with respect thereto may be prescribed, by the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States, whenever he deems it to be appropriate or desirable; and any such alteration or additional rule shall be set forth in a proclamation

This of the code as a dictionary which defines the basis of how laws are 'narrowed'. For example. The code already defines marriage:

Title 1, Chapter 1, Section 7
Sec. 7. - Definition of ''marriage'' and ''spouse''

In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, or of any ruling, regulation, or interpretation of the various administrative bureaus and agencies of the United States, the word ''marriage'' means only a legal union between one man and one woman as husband and wife, and the word ''spouse'' refers only to a person of the opposite sex who is a husband or a wife

This however doesn't mean that it is a law.
 

Mumbles

Member
NLB2 said:
Hi Gaunilo,

Begging the question? Isn't it just a syllogism?
God is that which nothing greater than is possible.
Something that exists in actuality is greater than something that exists in the mind alone.
God exists in actuality.
And even if it is question begging, why does this matter? Sure you're defining something into existence but so what? This proof, if it is sound, doesn't really tell you much other than something that is perfect must exist in order to fulfill its place as being perfect. It doesn't really have any implications, religious or otherwise.

Also the utopian argument doesn't really work. The definition of god is greatest possible [i[thing[/i]. Your utopia still can have things greater than it because it is only the greatest place.

Well, no, I'm disagreeing with your premise that God is "the greatest being that can be conceived of". Actually, I'd say that most descriptions of God I've heard aren't even coherent (eg. he's desperate for you to love him but doesn't want to contact you, he's "outside the universe" or "above logic", he loves people but will condemn them to eternal torment, and so forth), so I'm accusing you (well, Anselm) of playing with words in order to get the conclusion he wants.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
DarienA said:
Sorry God generic in being that whether you are Christian, Muslim etc you believe in God. Enlightened folks in those different religions will also tell you it is the same God. They simply have different belief systems surrounding how they commune with God. Hence my previous statement Allah is God, God is Allah.
And thus Buddhists get the shaft. :p

Phoenix said:
3) The whole secular diesm thing is not accurate. There were a large number of protestants involved in the founding of the country. In fact many of them came here to escape religious persecution. In reality the founding fathers WERE religious as the opened up the first congress with a prayer and one of the acts that was performed at the first congress was to establish christian missions on indian lands (funded by the country BTW).
While a great deal of the people involved at the time were protestant(even ignoring that religious fervor was relatively low in the late 1700s), the key figure were predominantly Deists or Unitarian, the latter being more common..

But this whole argument of the framers personal beliefs is really a red herring in the discussion of how "Christian" America is. Where is the evidence that anything was actually influenced by Christianity. The base concepts, models, and ideas in the Constitution are antithetical to those set forth in the Bible. The fingerprints of Classic literature, Enlightenment philosophy, and British common law, on the other hand, smother each page.

I'm not going to say that the influence is zero, but I'm sick of people who simply put forth the claim that American government and law were based on Christianity without a single bit of substantive support, and to which I ask, "Just what part?"
 

Mumbles

Member
And actually, there were people who attempted to get christianity inserted into the US constitution, both when it was written and soon after. Their major concern, of course, was that God would be pissed about the slight, and would quickly destroy the US. Instead, they addressed religion only twice in the constitution/BoR that address religion - Article 6, which explicitly bans religious tests for any government office in the US, and the first amendment, which forbids congress from, at the very least, establishing a national church - and God only once ("In the year of our Lord" referring to the date).
 

Dilbert

Member
NLB2 said:
Hi Gaunilo,

Begging the question? Isn't it just a syllogism?
God is that which nothing greater than is possible.
Something that exists in actuality is greater than something that exists in the mind alone.
God exists in actuality.
And even if it is question begging, why does this matter? Sure you're defining something into existence but so what? This proof, if it is sound, doesn't really tell you much other than something that is perfect must exist in order to fulfill its place as being perfect. It doesn't really have any implications, religious or otherwise.

Also the utopian argument doesn't really work. The definition of god is greatest possible [i[thing[/i]. Your utopia still can have things greater than it because it is only the greatest place.
OK, I'm done with NLB2.

Look, it's clear that you've studied philosophy. The "big two" objections to Anselm's ontological argument are Gaunilo's "perfect island" argument, and Kant's "not a predicate" argument. You've name-dropped BOTH of them in this thread. So, I'm concluding that you know your philosophy, and you're doing nothing but rehashing a discussion hundreds of years old. If you want to believe that Anselm's argument stands against those objections, that's your business. But I refuse to get into the philosophical equivalent of "rock, scissors, paper" with someone: "Anselm beats Gaunilo! Kant beats Anselm!" If you have something TRULY NEW to add to the philosophy books on this issue, go for it. But as long as you're just quoting Anselm -- I mean, you STILL haven't attempted to justify WHY one of your premises ("Something that exists in actuality is greater than something that exists in the mind alone") is true, even after repeated attempts by people to question it -- I have nothing further to say.
 
Hitokage said:
But this whole argument of the framers personal beliefs is really a red herring in the discussion of how "Christian" America is. Where is the evidence that anything was actually influenced by Christianity. The base concepts, models, and ideas in the Constitution are antithetical to those set forth in the Bible. The fingerprints of Classic literature, Enlightenment philosophy, and British common law, on the other hand, smother each page.

I'm not going to say that the influence is zero, but I'm sick of people who simply put forth the claim that American government and law were based on Christianity without a single bit of substantive support, and to which I ask, "Just what part?"

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Your answer depends on your point of view.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
What the fuck does the chicken and egg question have to do with anything I said?

...because I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and not assuming you just mean that it's a completely subjective matter, on orders from the Global Zionist Conspiracy.
 
Hitokage said:
What the fuck does the chicken and egg question have to do with anything I said?

Was the American government based on Christian teachings or not? You say that it was, and maybe all the evidence does point to that fact, but unless you've actually spoken with one of the forefathers about it, then you would never really know.

Sorry to reduce to simplistic terms, seeing as how you guys want to complicate the matter so.
 
Hitokage said:
You're missing the point. If the framers did indeed convery a christian influence, where is it expressed?

Does it really matter whether or not that it was expressed by the framers? Perhaps they thought that the best form of government is one that does not impose its will upon its citizens (which, of course is impossible), and they chose to keep their beliefs out. Besides, the fact of the matter is that the US began and evolved into a primarily Christian state, which is dominant today. But you knew that already so no need to keep repeating that info.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
You're still missing the point, and brought up the completely irrelevant fact that the majority of America's citizens are christian... but whatever...

If an influence isn't expressed, it isn't influence.
 
Hitokage said:
You're still missing the point, and brought up the completely irrelevant fact that the majority of America's citizens are christian... but whatever...

If an influence isn't expressed, it isn't influence.

Well, generally, since America isn't really a separate entity, but is rather represented by its citizens, then I would say that is very relevant.

And with that I'll concede, because I think this argument is completely fruitless and will last for generations.
 
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