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Surface |OT|

Alx

Member
The browser is even better than the one running on the Xbox 360. What more could you want?
KuGsj.gif

There are a few features of Opera mini that I would welcome on Surface, like shortcuts to fast scroll to the end/beginning of a page, or the startup page with my favourite sites as big squares.
Also, I already mentioned that Neogaf looks bad in portrait mode. Other browsers might do it better.
 
There are a few features of Opera mini that I would welcome on Surface, like shortcuts to fast scroll to the end/beginning of a page, or the startup page with my favourite sites as big squares.
Also, I already mentioned that Neogaf looks bad in portrait mode. Other browsers might do it better.

Everything looks awful in a 9:16 aspect ratio. ;-)

But yeah, the best thing you can hope for on Windows RT, is a better skin with nicer features. The rendering engine will be the same.
 
Wait really? I thought the number of rows was automatically set based on the screen resolution and size?

I'm sorry for the confusion.

The number of rows is still dependent on the resolution and the switch for the extra row only shows up on my 1920 x 1200 monitor, but not on my other two 1280x1024 screens.

dRmtT.png
Ved0J.png


You can try two manipulate the numbers of rows with the registry, though.

a simple registry hack allows you to control the maximum number of rows that will be displayed on the Start Screen. In order to set a maximum limit for the number of tile rows, navigate to the following registry key.

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\ImmersiveShell\Grid

Right click in the main window, select New, and create a new DWORD (32-bit) Value. Now, rename it to Layout_MaximumRowCount. and then open the key to set the custom maximum number of rows. You can restart or log off your computer to implement the changes.

I didn't try it, so don't blame me if your display explodes after changing the setting.
 

eastmen

Banned
Looping a video doesn't give real world battery life...how about doing a test with web surfing or playing games? engadget's battery tests are simply the worst, on every device all they do is loop a video.

They tested Asus Transformer Infinity with 9+ hours, giving it the longest battery of any android tablet, in reality it just about 5 to 6 hours, even worse when playing games...they looped a video.

Looping video will tell me one important aspect of the hardware. Which is watching videos. On trips I will tend to watch multuple videos on a plane.

Gaming will only tell me what it doea in that game. Web surfing should get better battery life then. Watching a movie
 

popeutlal

Member
Looping video will tell me one important aspect of the hardware. Which is watching videos. On trips I will tend to watch multuple videos on a plane.

Gaming will only tell me what it doea in that game. Web surfing should get better battery life then. Watching a movie
When watching a video, mostly the gpu is used. When playing a game both cpu and gpu are used. When surfing the web mostly cpu is used.

A video only battery test is not balanced. The cpu will generally use more battery then the gpu, so no battery life will not be better for web surfing compared to watching a video.
 

eastmen

Banned
When watching a video, mostly the gpu is used. When playing a game both cpu and gpu are used. When surfing the web mostly cpu is used.

A video only battery test is not balanced. The cpu will generally use more battery then the gpu, so no battery life will not be better for web surfing compared to watching a video.
You know this isnt true. Web surfing is some of the lightest loads you can put on a computer while videos are more demanding
 

popeutlal

Member
You know this isnt true. Web surfing is some of the lightest loads you can put on a computer while videos are more demanding
If the video is hardware accelerated, as most videos are, then the task isn't demanding at all. If you believe web surfing is 'some of the lightest loads' on the computer, then obviously you are only going to text only websites.
 
Seriously considering heading down to Staples later tonight and grabbing a Surface. They say they have it, though I'm a little dubious for whatever reason...
 
Decided to wait for the Pro model from the very beginning, but I finally got to fiddle with one at Best Buy today and loved it. It was hard for me to leave there without one. The Touch cover feels a lot better than I thought it would and, aside from misclicking Caps Lock instead of shift with my pinky, typing was surprisingly smooth.

Super excited for January now.
 
People may not have "adjusted" to the Surface RT Metro interface, but from what I've seen it's a more appealing way to use a tablet than the icon only view of iOS. Obviously just my own personal opinion.
 
I'm sorry for the confusion.

The number of rows is still dependent on the resolution and the switch for the extra row only shows up on my 1920 x 1200 monitor, but not on my other two 1280x1024 screens.

dRmtT.png
Ved0J.png


You can try two manipulate the numbers of rows with the registry, though.



I didn't try it, so don't blame me if your display explodes after changing the setting.

Interesting. I'll look into it.

Hi from a surface!
 

Xian

Neo Member
Has there been any news if MS is going to sell the Surface through retail channels in Europe?

There are no MS stores here and I'd love to test it out before buying.
 

frontieruk

Member
Has there been any news if MS is going to sell the Surface through retail channels in Europe?

There are no MS stores here and I'd love to test it out before buying.

John Lewis is carrying it in the UK so I'd imagine it'll spread through retailers around euroland
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
People may not have "adjusted" to the Surface RT Metro interface, but from what I've seen it's a more appealing way to use a tablet than the icon only view of iOS. Obviously just my own personal opinion.

I had a revelation of sorts the day before yesterday. I watched one or two tutorials on the gestures and hotkeys and I went from being slightly bemused, to hugely proficient in less than a half hour. Now not only did I improve as a "Surface User" I was now able to do things that are either difficult or impossible on other tablets - especially as it relates to files, desktop and metro portability.

But my realization was this:

We want an OS that is powerful and flexible and intuitive, but are so used to simplicity and intuition being given precedence over functionality that we have become extraordinarily lazy. Oh, pressing it once doesn't work? MUST BE BROKEN.

Windows 8 RT comes under tremendous scrutiny for its mixed approach, but the reality of using it is that it not only does everything I want it to, but it does it elegantly and beautifully ONCE you spend a bare few minutes learning its curve.

I think iOS in particular has trained me to be lazy and furthermore, inured me to a huge lack of incredibly basic functionality (you know, like actual files you can use and move around).

My Surface RT lets me do closed system tablet stuff, but instantly and seamlessly revert to a work-friendly and normalized environment that allows open system flexibility, at last as it relates to my stuff.

In short tablets have taught us to be lazy and expect less functionality.
 

Alx

Member
There are ads everywhere in the street here, and they all mention "exclusively on Microsoft.fr". It doesn't look like they're planning to use regular shops any time soon.
 
Okay, been using one of these for about 24 hours, and it is seriously impressive. Very slick, fast, Windows 8/RT on touch is amazing, and the screen is great.

I used to think Pro or bust, but I would fully recommend the RT version now.

Were the performance issues all fixed for people through the updates, and now performance is good cause performance of the device has been great for me.
 

clav

Member
Feels like Microsoft is taking a Xbox 360 approach to the Surface and perhaps Windows 8 overall.

The 360 showed that Microsoft can release a feature incomplete product (e.g. no background downloads) and add features/optimizations later.
 
Feels like Microsoft is taking a Xbox 360 approach to the Surface and perhaps Windows 8 overall.

The 360 showed that Microsoft can release a feature incomplete product (e.g. no background downloads) and add features/optimizations later.

Yeah I think that is certainly something they are moving towards doing more. Making their software very capable of adding regular updates, and then improving and adding over time. Hell Windows itself is going to be moving to yearly updates with "Windows Blue" in the middle of next year.


^^Cut the Rope review: I haven't played any games on it yet.
 

Windu

never heard about the cat, apparently
Feels like Microsoft is taking a Xbox 360 approach to the Surface and perhaps Windows 8 overall.

The 360 showed that Microsoft can release a feature incomplete product (e.g. no background downloads) and add features/optimizations later.
that is nothing new for microsoft, they have always done that.
 

Alx

Member
that is nothing new for microsoft, they have always done that.

it's also one of the big reasons of their success. and also something that any high tech company has to do to avoid failure. waiting for your product to be feature complete before releasing it on the market means releasing it late. by that time, the competition will have occupied the market, and when your product releases some of its features will already be outdated. Technology moves too fast to allow for extreme perfectionism.
 
it's also one of the big reasons of their success. and also something that any high tech company has to do to avoid failure. waiting for your product to be feature complete before releasing it on the market means releasing it late. by that time, the competition will have occupied the market, and when your product releases some of its features will already be outdated. Technology moves too fast to allow for extreme perfectionism.
It's a good strategy and worked well for Apple, but doesn't help, when your product is still very late to the market. Windows Phone should've been released in 2008 and not 2010. Even then, Apollo should've been their 2010 release or at the very least Mango.

The same goes for the surface. It doesn't matter if the concept of Windows 8 was there in 2009, a year before the iPad was released. No one cares, if you let the competitor own the market. What they have now is a compelling, but imcomplete product with issues and an empty App Store.
 

eastmen

Banned
People do care. I know people who have left iphones and androids because windows phone does what they want better. I know people who are leaving other tablets and moving to the surface or pro tablets because they do things better.


The app stores continue to grow with windows phone 8 over a 120 thousand apps and windows 8 over 20 thousand apps.

At what point do the number of apps no longer matter ? Or will it be the last thing users of these old os's hold onto ?

Oh ios has 1.2 billion apps but windows phone only has 1billion who would ever buy something with no apps !
 
People do care. I know people who have left iphones and androids because windows phone does what they want better. I know people who are leaving other tablets and moving to the surface or pro tablets because they do things better.


The app stores continue to grow with windows phone 8 over a 120 thousand apps and windows 8 over 20 thousand apps.

At what point do the number of apps no longer matter ? Or will it be the last thing users of these old os's hold onto ?

Oh ios has 1.2 billion apps but windows phone only has 1billion who would ever buy something with no apps !

I never said that no one cares about the Surface or Windows Phone in general. It was more of a jab at Microsoft, who specifially pointed out few times that they've been working on this before the iPad was released. Also, your anecdotal evidence doesn't seem to reflect the majority of users, since Windows Phone is still without any success.

App Store numbers are completely meaningless, if there's good quality software offered for the platform. That can't be said for Windows 8 (or Windows Phone). You could say that huge numbers will attract the good developers, but they didn't show up to the "100,000 apps on Windows Phone" party. Microsoft still has to code their own Facebook and Twitter app for that phone. So yes, at what point to the numbers of apps no longer matter? I can't tell you that, because 100,000 or 120,000 apps still don't seem to be enough.
 

eastmen

Banned
Does it matter who codes the app as long as it works well ? The facebook app for windows phone was far and away better than it was on either of the other platforms until facebook started to fix them. For android it just happened last week . I have a galaxy note 2 and a htc arrive. My arrive would load facebook faster , transition faster between various pages on facebook and all the while not drain the battery of my phone like the android one did. Now finally we got a real update to the facebook app on android for the first time since I got my original Samsung moment 3 and a half years ago and it finally fixes those problems .


Windows 8/ RT doesn't need the majority of apps that exist on the market place because it actualy delievers a real online experience.

I don't need a pintrest app on my surface because it displays the web site properly unlike my asus transformer or ipad 2 . The list goes on.

With windows 8 proper I have acess to more apps than you can count. About 25 years worth of them. I'm able to play all my old dos games all the way up to cod bops 2 .


THe other app you bring up is twitter. Does anyone actually use the official twitter app ? I use carbon on my windows phone its really good better than any I've found on android. I currently use tweetcaster instead of twitter.

And I've found a good 50 + applications that replace twitter on android. I'm sure its the same ios also. So it seems even when the first party shows up to write an app they still have limited functionality. On Win 8 / RT I simply use the real site . On windows phone I still have options of good apps even if MS wrote them themselves. Sometimes its even better than what the other phones have acess too.
 
This thing (Surface RT) is pretty awesome, particularly in usability and productivity.

Other than games/app selection, and the resolution (although that depends on what you are doing, Clear Type is no joke), this is a much better tablet by far. The fact that I can simply connect to my homegroup/network and drag files over (or, even better, just stream them through whatever app 90% of the time) without using a special app or program or iTunes gives it an immediate leg up.

It's not perfect. I don't know how the app selection will play out over time, for one. The OS and built in apps like Office eat up a lot of space - I had around 16GB free to start. Touch cover takes some getting used to. For the next iteration, they need to etch a white line in the space bar - it's a little hard to see on the black cover, and the line would help. I'd also like there to be a true split screen option for apps (although the current 75/25 screen split is useful with some apps). Dunno if there are underlying reasons for not having a 50/50 split as an option, but it would be nice. Most everything I have quibbles with can be fixed in updates. iPad 1 was bare-bones (no multitask, etc) before they updated the OS, so I'm sure Surface will continue to improve on that front.

I like the iPad and Android tablets fine. I've owned an iPad 1, iPad 3, and currently own a Nexus 7. I intend to get an iPad Mini in the future. As pure consumption devices they're great, and both top the Surface in a lot of ways on that front.

My biggest problem with the iPad was that everything took several steps, or in some cases separate apps, to get done. For instance, something simple like a comic reader. For most iPad readers, you have to transfer files into the app itself through iTunes. I finally found one, ComicGlass, which has a separate desktop server program you can download from their website which lets you transfer files directly. But you still have to download the files to the device before you can open them. Every single one of the Surface comic reader apps I have tried so far lets me draw files from the homegroup and I can either download them to the tablet or just stream them directly. Every single one. I didn't have to download a separate server app, or transfer them through an iTunes-like program. "It just works." This same thing applies to every video and music app I have tried, as well.

Another frustration was word processing. Every writing app on iPad or Android seems to use markdown or plain text as the main format. Plain text gives you dick for formatting options, and markdown just plain sucks assholes. Sure, a lot of them let you save in various formats including .doc, export to Dropbox/Box/iCloud/etc, but 9 times out of 10 whenever I would open the file in OpenOffice the formatting would be broken and I'd have to spend time correcting it. Then it would get broken again when I imported it back into the tablet app. Everything seemed to be a workaround for using the actual Office program, and was a pain in the ass to use. Google Drive/Docs worked the best out of all of them, but you had to be connected to the internet to edit. I heard Office RT sucked at launch, but I updated it (568MB!) and it works great, so I never experienced any shitty performance.

I'm not going to totally replace Android or Apple tablets with this. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. If you're someone who wants to actually get some work done while still being able to play with a tablet and your budget is $600 or less, though, this is pretty much the only one you should be looking at (of course the pro will be better, but that's $900 for the base model).

My one regret is spending $25 on that 32GB micro SD card, now that I know I can just stream things. It's a Class 4 card, too, so if I did the mounting trick it would probably just slow down the system :(

/wallotext
 

clav

Member
that is nothing new for microsoft, they have always done that.

Just seems more transparent recently. Look how many radical dash updates the Xbox 360 received over its lifespan. Blades -> Background downloads + iPod support-> NXE -> introduction of apps + indie market + USB flash drives + Download files when powered off -> Metro + IE

Windows 7 was essentially Vista SP3, and Microsoft discovered marketing when its competitors already discovered it tech eons ago.

With rumors of Windows Blue (or moar lik winblows amirite lolololol), Windows RT/8/WP8 will get the Xbox 360 treatment or at least appear to be.
 

Epcott

Member
Patiently waiting for Surface Pro.

But I wonder, how well will it run software like Photoshop, Painter, and Daz Studio? Cant wait to put Scrivener on it, but I moreso want it as an end all be all drawing tablet.
 
Does it matter who codes the app as long as it works well ? The facebook app for windows phone was far and away better than it was on either of the other platforms until facebook started to fix them. For android it just happened last week . I have a galaxy note 2 and a htc arrive. My arrive would load facebook faster , transition faster between various pages on facebook and all the while not drain the battery of my phone like the android one did. Now finally we got a real update to the facebook app on android for the first time since I got my original Samsung moment 3 and a half years ago and it finally fixes those problems .


Windows 8/ RT doesn't need the majority of apps that exist on the market place because it actualy delievers a real online experience.

I don't need a pintrest app on my surface because it displays the web site properly unlike my asus transformer or ipad 2 . The list goes on.

With windows 8 proper I have acess to more apps than you can count. About 25 years worth of them. I'm able to play all my old dos games all the way up to cod bops 2 .


THe other app you bring up is twitter. Does anyone actually use the official twitter app ? I use carbon on my windows phone its really good better than any I've found on android. I currently use tweetcaster instead of twitter.

And I've found a good 50 + applications that replace twitter on android. I'm sure its the same ios also. So it seems even when the first party shows up to write an app they still have limited functionality. On Win 8 / RT I simply use the real site . On windows phone I still have options of good apps even if MS wrote them themselves. Sometimes its even better than what the other phones have acess too.

I wish you were kidding. The Windows Phone Facebook app was trash for a long, long time. You couldn't even "like" comments and just as with other 3rd party apps, it always lagged behind when new features were introduced or API changes were made (that eventually broke the app). It took them a while to fix the laggy scrolling and even after Mango, it wasn't that good. Heck, they even had the rewrite of the Facebook app for WP8 as a bullet point during the Windows Phone 8 reveal. So please don't try to convince me that it was better than the official app on other platforms. I've used it for 18 months.

And yes, people use the official Twitter app. What a silly question is this? When Joe Doe taps on the marketplace tile and types in "Twitter", he wants to see an app called "Twitter" first and foremost. Not Carbon (which was abandoned by the developer, btw), Tweetro or whatever else is there.

I've already mentioned it, but of course it matters who codes the app. When Facebook or Twitter announce a new feature, it could take weeks for the implementation, if not longer. Same goes for the drastic API changes that Twitter sometimes does. They just kill the 3rd party apps with it for a while. Do they care? Of course not. How many times was a 3rd party Pandora or YouTube app killed for a while, because some undocumented API changes were made? In these cases it's always nice to have an official solution you can fall back to. Most of the time it the official app or mobile site, but even that wasn't an option pre-Mango on Windows Phone, because there was no HTML5 support or support for other browsers.

Using websites is nice, but they won't have live tiles or notifications (unless you use your e-mail inbox as universal notification system, which could get a bit messy). Most of them won't even have a good layout that is optimized for touch or that scales well. Scaling is pretty important, because web browsing sucks in 16:9 and is a total waste. Snapping apps in Windows 8 helps with that, though.

Still, whenever there's a longer article or editorial on the Verge, I immediately switch to Flipboard on my iPad. Because having your content formatted like this:

ib6LNq.png


beats any browser experience for me. It's just so much nicer to read.

Same goes for Google Reader and its terrible, terrible browser UI. But thankfully, there's already a good client on the Windows Store (something I've never dreamed off, looking back at the total lack of Google Reader clients for Windows).
 
will there be a surface pro OT, or will conversation about pro just migrate into this topic?

I am about 70% certain now that I'll buy a pro, if the european prices and launch date match the US!
 

railGUN

Banned
And the "normal" used area on a college rule sheet of line paper?

Again, what's the problem with working on a 10.6" screen for several hours?

I don't know, I'm just pointing out that a sheet of paper is measured differently than a screen. You can also write as big as you want on paper, but are at the will of a set tablet resolution most of the time.
 

eastmen

Banned
I wish you were kidding. The Windows Phone Facebook app was trash for a long, long time. You couldn't even "like" comments and just as with other 3rd party apps, it always lagged behind when new features were introduced or API changes were made (that eventually broke the app). It took them a while to fix the laggy scrolling and even after Mango, it wasn't that good. Heck, they even had the rewrite of the Facebook app for WP8 as a bullet point during the Windows Phone 8 reveal. So please don't try to convince me that it was better than the official app on other platforms. I've used it for 18 months.

I've never had a problem with liking contacts on my arrive. I've used facebook for android for 3 years and it would kill the battery life of any phone I used it on for 3 years. Don't deny there wasn't huge deal last week when android finally got a decent facebook app.

And yes, people use the official Twitter app. What a silly question is this? When Joe Doe taps on the marketplace tile and types in "Twitter", he wants to see an app called "Twitter" first and foremost. Not Carbon (which was abandoned by the developer, btw), Tweetro or whatever else is there.
And yet people continue to make those 3rd party apps and they continue to get downloaded and used . If the twitter app for android was actually good , people wouldn't need these alternatives.

I've already mentioned it, but of course it matters who codes the app. When Facebook or Twitter announce a new feature, it could take weeks for the implementation, if not longer. Same goes for the drastic API changes that Twitter sometimes does. They just kill the 3rd party apps with it for a while. Do they care? Of course not. How many times was a 3rd party Pandora or YouTube app killed for a while, because some undocumented API changes were made? In these cases it's always nice to have an official solution you can fall back to. Most of the time it the official app or mobile site, but even that wasn't an option pre-Mango on Windows Phone, because there was no HTML5 support or support for other browsers.

It can take weeks even when its a first party doing the apps. Like I said just look at the facebook app finally becoming decent on android

Using websites is nice, but they won't have live tiles or notifications (unless you use your e-mail inbox as universal notification system, which could get a bit messy). Most of them won't even have a good layout that is optimized for touch or that scales well. Scaling is pretty important, because web browsing sucks in 16:9 and is a total waste. Snapping apps in Windows 8 helps with that, though.

Web browsing sucks in 16:9 ? Are you serious ? I'm sorry this is the end of me responding to you. 90% of all monitors for desktops and laptops are 16:9 but yet web browsing sucks in this format. Yup that's why computers have adopted it . To bad I can't just turn my tablet on its side and change its aspect ratio

Still, whenever there's a longer article or editorial on the Verge, I immediately switch to Flipboard on my iPad. Because having your content formatted like this:

ib6LNq.png


beats any browser experience for me. It's just so much nicer to read.

Same goes for Google Reader and its terrible, terrible browser UI. But thankfully, there's already a good client on the Windows Store (something I've never dreamed off, looking back at the total lack of Google Reader clients for Windows).


I solved the verge problem by simply not visting the site. If I wanted to read pro apple crap 24/7 i'd go to apple.com .
 

ksdixon

Member
Parents have ancient Vista 3GB laptops. Was gonna get them SurfaceRTs when I could afford them, but noticed it only has 2GB.

Though I'm guessing that the SurfaceRT (2GB memory) uses RAM in a much different/better way than a 3GB Vista Laptop would?

Can anyone comment based on their SurfaceRT usage on it's performance?
 
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