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Survey Shows Germans Sceptical about Muslims and Islam + bonus euro bigotry

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Kabouter

Member
Hopefully not old to GAF.
Germans view Muslims and Islam more negatively than do many of their European neighbors, according to a new pan-European opinion survey; and the majority of Germans also entirely disagree with a recent statement by German President Christian Wulff that Islam "belongs in Germany."

The survey provides strong empirical evidence of a wide disconnect between ordinary German voters and Germany's political class over Muslim immigration and the role of Islam in the country. It also shows that scepticism about Muslims and Islam is not limited to the political fringe, as many proponents of multiculturalism assert, but is shared by voters across the political spectrum.


The survey, titled "Perception and Acceptance of Religious Diversity," was conducted by the sociology department of the University of Münster in northwestern Germany, in partnership with the prestigious TNS Emnid political polling firm. Researchers surveyed 1,000 people each in the former West and East Germany, Denmark, France, the Netherlands and Portugal; the survey's margin of error is plus or minus 3%.

The study, officially released in Berlin on December 2, shows that only 34% of West Germans and 26% of East Germans have a positive view of Muslims, compared to 55% of those surveyed in Denmark, 56% in the Netherlands and 62% in France.


Fewer than 5% of Germans think Islam is a tolerant religion, compared to roughly 20% for the Danes, the Dutch and the French. Only 30% of Germans say they approve of the building of mosques, while 50% of Danes and two-thirds of the French and Dutch respondents say they do. The number of Germans who approve of the building of minarets or of the introduction of Muslim holidays is even lower.


Only 8% of West Germans and 5% of East Germans say that Islam is peaceful. When asked what they associate with Islam, more than 80% of those surveyed in all five countries say discrimination of women, 70% say fanaticism, 60% say violence, and 50% say bigotry.


According to the survey, only 49% of respondents in West Germany and 53% in East Germany think that all religious groups should have equal rights, in contrast to 72% in Denmark, 82% in the Netherlands, 86% in France and 89% in Portugal. More than 40% of Germans believe that the practice of Islam should be vigorously restricted.


Only 20% of Germans, and 30% of French, believe that Islam is suitable for the Western world. Significantly, more than 80% of those surveyed in all five countries agree with the statement "that Muslims must adapt to our culture."

The study also reveals a more prevalent anti-Jewish undercurrent in Germany than in other western European countries. A little more than 28% of West Germans and 29% of East Germans have negative attitudes about Jews, the survey says. This compares to about 10% in the Netherlands, 12% in Denmark, and nearly 21% in France.

The director of the survey, a German sociologist named Detlef Pollack, is at a loss to explain why Germans are less tolerant of Muslims than their Western European neighbors. Pollack says one reason may be because Germans have less contact with Muslims. The survey shows that Germans on average have fewer personal encounters with Muslims than do other Europeans, especially the French. (On a country-by-country basis, Muslim residents currently represent about 8% of the population in France, 6% in Holland, 4% in Belgium and Germany, and 3% in Britain.) This leads Pollack to assert: "The more often you meet Muslims, the more you view them as generally positive."

Pollack says another reason why Germans hold negative views about Muslims may be because there have not been any major clashes between ethnic Germans and Muslim immigrants. In other European countries, confrontations – such as the cartoon controversy in Denmark, Muslim violence in French cities or the assassination of Islam critic Theo van Gogh in the Netherlands – have triggered intense debates about the role of Muslims in society. Pollack says that this sort of debate has yet to occur in Germany, and explains (according to Pollack) the sceptical views that Germans have about Muslims and Islam.

An arguably more plausible explanation may be that the Germans who participated in the survey are simply being more honest and open about their true feelings toward Muslims and Islam than are their European counterparts.

In any event, the new survey comes as Germany is fully immersed in a heated national debate over Muslim immigration -- a debate that has been fuelled by the publication in August of an explosive new book titled "Germany Does Away With Itself." The best-seller, authored by 65-year-old Thilo Sarrazin, a prominent German banker who is also a long-time member of the center-left Social Democratic Party (SPD), has broken Germany's long-standing taboo on discussing the impact of Muslim immigration by highlighting painful truths about the current state of affairs.

Since then, senior German politicians have seemed unsure over how to proceed. For example, German Chancellor Angela Merkel initially sought to distance herself from Sarrazin's views, and called for his dismissal from the German Central Bank. But after opinion polls showed that most Germans agree with Sarrazin, Merkel, in October, conceded that German multiculturalism has "failed utterly." Since then, she has called on Muslim immigrants to do more to learn the German language, laws and customs.

During a speech to mark the 20th anniversary of German reunification on October 3, German President Christian Wulff, a member of Merkel's center-right Christian Democratic Union (CDU), proclaimed that "Islam belongs in Germany" because of the four million Muslims who now live there; but two days later, Merkel said Germany's roots were Judeo-Christian. "Now we obviously have Muslims in Germany. But it is important in regard to Islam that the values represented by Islam must correspond with our constitution. What applies here is the constitution, not Sharia law," she said.

Meanwhile, Interior Minister Thomas de Maizière has rejected calls from some center-left Social Democrats and Greens for Islam to be recognized as a state religion along with Christianity and Judaism. Speaking on Deutschlandradio Kultur on October 7, he said: "If you now ask: Will Islam be put on the same level as the Judeo-Christian understanding of religion and culture that we have, then my answer is: not for the foreseeable future."

In mid-November, Merkel told the CDU annual conference in Karlsruhe that the debate about immigration "especially by those of the Muslim faith" was an opportunity for the ruling party to stand up confidently for its convictions. "We do not have too much Islam, we have too little Christianity. We have too few discussions about the Christian view of mankind." Germany, she continued, needs more public discussion "about the values that guide us and about our Judeo-Christian tradition. We have to stress this again with confidence. Then we will also be able to bring about cohesion in our society."

On November 16, the CDU passed a resolution stressing that Germany's cultural identity (Leitkultur) is based on the "Christian-Jewish tradition, ancient and Enlightenment philosophy and the nation's historical experience." The resolution also states: "Our country benefits from immigrants who live and work here. But Germany does not benefit from a minority that refuses to integrate, does not want to learn our language, and denies participation and advancement to their children. … We expect that those who come here respect and recognize our cultural identity."

In the meantime, Germany is bracing for possible terrorist attacks amid growing signs that Islamic extremists are preparing an assault somewhere in the country in the coming weeks or months. Says Pollack: "If there were a terrorist attack now in Germany, as is being feared, the majority of Germans would feel vindicated in their negative attitude toward Muslims."
http://www.hudson-ny.org/1726/germans-sceptical-muslims-islam
 

Azih

Member
The director of the survey, a German sociologist named Detlef Pollack, is at a loss to explain why Germans are less tolerant of Muslims than their Western European neighbors. Pollack says one reason may be because Germans have less contact with Muslims. The survey shows that Germans on average have fewer personal encounters with Muslims than do other Europeans, especially the French. (On a country-by-country basis, Muslim residents currently represent about 8% of the population in France, 6% in Holland, 4% in Belgium and Germany, and 3% in Britain.) This leads Pollack to assert: "The more often you meet Muslims, the more you view them as generally positive."
.
 
Yep, I dated a German girl for 2 years. She definitely did not like them for no apparent reason. She also didn't like Turkish people.... and Austrians... and people from India. Germans are pretty xenophobic.
 

Azih

Member
DennisK4 said:
What does this part of the thread title refer to? Or do you just take delight in portraying europeans as bigots?

The study also reveals a more prevalent anti-Jewish undercurrent in Germany than in other western European countries. A little more than 28% of West Germans and 29% of East Germans have negative attitudes about Jews, the survey says. This compares to about 10% in the Netherlands, 12% in Denmark, and nearly 21% in France.

I think.
 

Kabouter

Member
DennisK4 said:
What does this part of the thread title refer to? Or do you just take delight in portraying europeans as bigots?
My original thread title was identical to the one in the source.
Also, I'm a European myself, and do not consider myself or the average European a bigot.
 
European views of Muslims differ quite significantly to that of e.g. people in America. Unlike in the States, European Muslim immigrants tend to populate densely in small areas giving them a large presence in certain communities. This is perhaps why far-right groups across Europe have drawn in large support as they tie in fears of Islam along with their anti-immigration policies. It isn't unique to this region or these groups; whenever the social landscape is changing quickly, you tend to have flashpoints. Here in the UK, A YouGov/Migration watch poll has recently shown that 73% of British people conducted in their poll responded to being unhappy at the prospect of Britain becoming a white minority state by 2066 and immediately that sparked a lengthy debate on forums but I think the factor there isn't so much as race as fear of a massive culture shift to an Eastern-like society.
 

Azih

Member
Meus Renaissance said:
A YouGov/Migration watch poll has recently shown that 73% of British people conducted in their poll responded to being unhappy at the prospect of Britain becoming a white minority state by 2066
That's one crazy thing to be polled about.
 
Meus Renaissance said:
European views of Muslims differ quite significantly to that of e.g. people in America. Unlike in the States, European Muslim immigrants tend to populate densely in small areas giving them a large presence in certain communities. This is perhaps why far-right groups across Europe have drawn in large support as they tie in fears of Islam along with their anti-immigration policies. It isn't unique to this region or these groups; whenever the social landscape is changing quickly, you tend to have flashpoints. Here in the UK, A YouGov/Migration watch poll has recently shown that 73% of British people conducted in their poll responded to being unhappy at the prospect of Britain becoming a white minority state by 2066 and immediately that sparked a lengthy debate on forums but I think the factor there isn't so much as race as fear of a massive culture shift to an Eastern-like society.
well...to be fair, nobody wants their culture terraformed. sometimes, I'm sure that's what it feels like is happening.
 
Dreams-Visions said:
well...to be fair, nobody wants their culture terraformed. sometimes, I'm sure that's what it feels like is happening.

Completely agree. Can you imagine if the opposite was happening in Muslim countries? There'd be civil war!
 

Azih

Member
Meus Renaissance said:
The poll itself was based on economic migration.
Well sure, but if the poll is basically going

"Are you currently a part of the majority?"

Yes

"Would you be happy if in 56 years, you were NO LONGER a part of the majority?"

Then of course most people are going to respond in a negative fashion. It's a crappy leading question.
 
Those numbers seem completely made up to me. Especialy the ones where he compares with other countries.

Quick search found this:

In May 2006, a poll by Motivaction / GPD (1,200 Dutch adults +/- 3%) found that 63% of Dutch citizens felt that Islam is incompatible with modern European life.[19] A poll of June 2004 found that 68% felt threatened by "immigrant or Muslim young people", 53% feared a terrorist attack by Muslims in the Netherlands, and 47% feared that at some point, they would have to live according to Islamic rules in the Netherlands.[20]

Doesn't look to me that the average German is more anti islam then his European neighbors. Add on top the fact that Germany has no popular anti islamization party unlike some of its neighbors including the Netherlands.

So if you don't consider yourself a bigot then why do you open a bigoted Germany bash thread? Bit hypocritical isn't it?
 

Azih

Member
It doesn't seem like a good article seeing as it just dropped this shining piece of analysis in there for no good reason

An arguably more plausible explanation may be that the Germans who participated in the survey are simply being more honest and open about their true feelings toward Muslims and Islam than are their European counterparts
 
Azih said:
Well sure, but if the poll is basically going

"Are you currently a part of the majority?"

Yes

"Would you be happy if in 56 years, you were NO LONGER a part of the majority?"

Then of course most people are going to respond in a negative fashion. It's a crappy leading question.

Well I agree, I only evoked the study to show that people don't like significant social changes happening so quickly.
 

Azih

Member
Meus Renaissance said:
Well I agree, I don't think it can be interpreted as X country being racist - it's fairly obvious that many people would respond similar. But what it does show is that most identify the country in a particular [in this context it is colour]. I only evoked the study to show that people don't like significant social changes happening so quickly.
That's fair. I don't think that result shows anything either about the host country *or* how the minority in question is viewed.

But it also must be highlighted that the scenario the poll question raises is ridiculously implausible (edit: and frankly scaremongering):

http://www.newsweek.com/2009/07/10/why-fears-of-a-muslim-takeover-are-all-wrong.html
 

Chairman Yang

if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
It's good to be skeptical of Islam as an ideology, but let's face it, the majority of these people are basing their dislike of Islam on xenophobia, not rationality.
 

SHOCKIE

Member
Azih said:
Pollack says one reason may be because Germans have less contact with Muslims. The survey shows that Germans on average have fewer personal encounters with Muslims than do other Europeans, especially the French. (On a country-by-country basis, Muslim residents currently represent about 8% of the population in France, 6% in Holland, 4% in Belgium and Germany, and 3% in Britain

:lol :lol :lol :lol
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Chairman Yang said:
It's good to be skeptical of Islam as an ideology, but let's face it, the majority of these people are basing their dislike of Islam on xenophobia, not rationality.

Well, that's always troublesome with these kinds of surveys.

I mean, I like Jewish people. I reject racist stereotypes of them, I reject conspiracy theories about Jewish control, I reject shrill "apartheid wall" style claims against Israel even if they are not anti-Jewish. I love Jewish food. I recognize that Jewish social organizations have done a lot of good, and I recognize that Jews have been historically discriminated against in terrible ways.

On the other hand, I reject Kabbalah and all other Jewish mysticism, I live in a place where circumcision is highly uncommon and not practices by any notable amount of people, Jewish or otherwise. I think many positions held by even mainstream Conservative Jews are pretty offensive, and as a secular person I think many of the supernatural claims held by religious Jews are bogus (a position I'd apply to other religions as well).

But if I was surveyed, I'd rather be lumped into a group based on that positive paragraph than that negative paragraph and I assume most people who think like me would agree. Without drawing a full 100% equivalence, ditto for other religions as well. Since I think pretty much everyone knows how these things read, I'd say that most people who have a nuanced view of religious or cultural Judaism or Islam or Christianity probably come off as "positive" in these surveys. Wouldn't you agree?
 

Azih

Member
SHOCKIE said:
Pollack says one reason may be because Germans have less contact with Muslims. The survey shows that Germans on average have fewer personal encounters with Muslims than do other Europeans, especially the French. (On a country-by-country basis, Muslim residents currently represent about 8% of the population in France, 6% in Holland, 4% in Belgium and Germany, and 3% in Britain

Which isn't the same as personal encounters dude.
 
Dreams-Visions said:
well...to be fair, nobody wants their culture terraformed. sometimes, I'm sure that's what it feels like is happening.
pretty much this, there is a huge difference between Old County nations that have existed for over 1000 years compared to New World colonial nations that are less then 200 years old formed by outsiders
 

Forsete

Member
Yeah, it seems mostly the media and the politicians love the idea of [european style failed] multiculturalism, while it has little support amongst the population.

In Sweden, the biggest advocates don't actually live in the multicultural areas, not currently and often never have lived there.

Dutch-GAF. Any truth to this?
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...sun/comments/when_jews_again_must_flee_europe

Just days earlier, Dutch politician Frits Bolkestein stated that religious Jews have no future in the Netherlands due to anti-Semitism.

They should “emigrate to the U.S. or Israel,” he said. His comments were published in the book “The Decay: Jews in a Rudderless Netherlands” by Manfred Gerstenfeld.

The main cause of increasing hostility to Jews is “anti-Semitism among Dutchmen of Moroccan descent, whose numbers keep growing,” Bolkestein stated.

We have already seen this in the city of Malmö, Sweden.
http://www.thelocal.se/24632/20100127/

Threats and harassment are becoming increasingly commonplace for Jewish residents in Malmö in southern Sweden, leading many Jews to leave the city out of fear for their safety.

“Threats against Jews have increased steadily in Malmö in recent years and many young Jewish families are choosing to leave the city,” Fredrik Sieradzki of the Jewish Community of Malmö (Judiska Församlingen i Malmö) told The Local.

“Many feel that the community and local politicians have shown a lack of understanding for how the city’s Jewish residents have been marginalized.”

Last year there were 79 crimes against Jewish residents reported to the police in Malmö, roughly double the number reported in 2008, according to the Skånska Dagbladet newspaper.

[...]

Sieradzki admitted he is currently “pessimistic” about the future of the Jewish community in Malmö, saying that there needs to be a “complete change in attitude” among the city’s politicians if the situation is going to improve.

“These issues need to be taken seriously,” he said, arguing that there needs to be a dialogue involving politicians, Islamic groups, and the Jewish community.

“But right now many Jews in Malmö are really concerned about the situation here and don’t believe they have a future here.”

I wonder what the situation is like in Germany?
 

ghst

thanks for the laugh
i don't have a postitive view of islam, i don't believe it's suitable for the western world, i do believe it's intolerant and associate it with discrimination and violence, and believe those who strictly follow its teachings should reappraise their beliefs to reflect progressive western thought.

and by islam i mean christianity.
 

Fritz

Member
That's absolutely shocking. I have zero explanation for these results and they don't reflect my experiences in this country at all.
 
I think the major difference between Europe and the US when it comes to multiculturalism is that in Europe many of the immigrants were not held to a high standard of wealth/education before they were allowed in. So you get those "ethnic" neighborhoods and whatnot that resemble what the US has with black/hispanic people that creates segmentation between races because of class difference.
 

Chairman Yang

if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Stumpokapow said:
But if I was surveyed, I'd rather be lumped into a group based on that positive paragraph than that negative paragraph and I assume most people who think like me would agree. Without drawing a full 100% equivalence, ditto for other religions as well. Since I think pretty much everyone knows how these things read, I'd say that most people who have a nuanced view of religious or cultural Judaism or Islam or Christianity probably come off as "positive" in these surveys. Wouldn't you agree?
Yeah, although I think the poll questions allow a little bit of distinction to be drawn between the people with nuanced views and the ones who'll have kneejerk hate. Like a sizeable chunk of the 40% who want to "vigorously restrict" the practice of Islam are probably scary bigots, whereas there would obviously be a much higher percentage of reasonable people among those who don't consider Islam very tolerant or peaceful.
 
Forsete said:
Yeah, it seems mostly the media and the politicians love the idea of [european style failed] multiculturalism, while it has little support amongst the population.

In Sweden, the biggest advocates don't actually live in the multicultural areas, not currently and often never have lived there.

Dutch-GAF. Any truth to this?
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...sun/comments/when_jews_again_must_flee_europe



We have already seen this in the city of Malmö, Sweden.
http://www.thelocal.se/24632/20100127/



I wonder what the situation is like in Germany?

I don't want to sound insensitive, but wasn't WW2 enough for European Jews? They should have gotten out of that barbaric hellhole and moved to America long ago. Time to get a move on, friends.
 
samus i am said:
Yep, I dated a German girl for 2 years. She definitely did not like them for no apparent reason. She also didn't like Turkish people.... and Austrians... and people from India. Germans are pretty xenophobic.

Do you have historical fact to prove this?
 
I don't feel any kind of aminosity against Islam nor any other religions.

I'm atheist; that doesn't mean I see regilions as a thing of the past or something that should disapear.

However, there is something that I hold very dearly. The concept of laicity (NOT secularism). I also believe that the further the State is from religion, the better off it is.

So when I see this.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_onVdt24pCwM/S9JCTK7V91I/AAAAAAAAyT4/9IPTigKLyO4/burqa at the tower.jpg

It does tilt a nerve.
 

Deku

Banned
Again, the failure is to provide a nuanced view of this.

Muslims are not all incompatible or unwilling to integrate. Most are not terrorists. Islam as a relgion, was capable of great enlightened thinking.

But people like arguing over each other. The right, enjoying their newfound public support feel safe and make lame general arguments. The left, like always, enjoy sitting on their high horse and preach tolerance, citing historical facts about how Islam was a great religion. They are also very quick to use the race card in silencing critics, though these days, conservatives are less intimidated by it and it just tends to derail the discussion entirely into tit for tat accusations.

Both also tend to ignore the humiliation many practitioners of the religions has felt after the collapse of the Ottoman caliphate, and the very conservative yearning for a glorious past, that tends to taint, radicalize and further push some Muslims in some conservative countries further to fanaticism.

Both are wrong in their own way. The failure of the discussion to distinguish for example between different types of Muslim immigrants, country of origin etc. is troubling.

The ones that the Daily Mail crowd likes to rage on the most are economic immigrants from impoverished 3rd world Muslim countries with very conservative social views. The right is correct in painting these types of immigrants as unwilling to integrate. Because they really do not wish to do so.

The guardian crowd on the otherhand tend to point out the well to do immigrants from North Africa, well educated exiles from secular classes in Iran and Iraq or Muslims from moderate countries like Turkey as proof positive that Muslims integrate well. But the bar is so ridiculously low, when the right is making fallacious arguments that essentially amount to saying All As are Bs.

This is why discussions tend to go in circles.

To be quite honest, I think some of the politicians have the right idea. Restrict immigration from conservative Muslim countries, and include a disclaimer that immigration to a new land requires adhering to new laws, and social norms.

And that some assimilation is required to function in their adoptive society.
 

JGS

Banned
ghst said:
i don't have a postitive view of islam, i don't believe it's suitable for the western world, i do believe it's intolerant and associate it with discrimination and violence, and believe those who strictly follow its teachings should reappraise their beliefs to reflect progressive western thought.

and by islam i mean christianity.
That's deep.
 

leroidys

Member
That surprises me. Every German I've met save one have been so progressive, intelligent, and articulate that I'm not sure they weren't from the future. Are there particularly bigoted regions or cities in Germany?
 
OuterWorldVoice said:
That is a terrible list of things people probably don't believe about Islam.
Really now. The list is spot on. The facts might not seem surprising to you or me, but for general masses (and Teabaggers) these truths are fucking revelations.
 

Neo C.

Member
Forsete said:
Yeah, it seems mostly the media and the politicians love the idea of [european style failed] multiculturalism, while it has little support amongst the population.

In Sweden, the biggest advocates don't actually live in the multicultural areas, not currently and often never have lived there.
That's strange, because I always thought it's the opposite.

At least in Switzerland, the xenophobes live in rural area, while the people in the cities are significantly less xenophobic even though crimes by foreigners happen most in the cities.
 
OuterWorldVoice said:
That is a terrible list of things people probably don't believe about Islam.
Really? It's a veritable list of talking points for the hard right. Maybe not the veil thing, but everything else has been consistently referenced by the types of crazies that want to frame the debate around Islam versus the West.
 

Az

Member
Isn't half of Germany Turkish? Oh nvm that is just half of Berlin.

or that's what it seemed like when I lived there long time ago
 

besada

Banned
The numbers are really similar to those that came out in the Pew poll shortly after 9/11. Even then, Germany had some of the highest anti-Jewish and anti-Islamic numbers in all of Europe.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
RustyNails said:
Really now. The list is spot on. The facts might not seem surprising to you or me, but for general masses (and Teabaggers) these truths are fucking revelations.

Yes... because so many people think about whether or not the "founding fathers" would have approved of Muslims or not...

What?
 

Dennis

Banned
BananaBomb said:
I don't want to sound insensitive, but wasn't WW2 enough for European Jews? They should have gotten out of that barbaric hellhole and moved to America long ago. Time to get a move on, friends.
I don't want to sound insensitive but why would jews go to America? Americans are all fat and stupid and starting wars and shit.
 
DennisK4 said:
I don't want to sound insensitive but why would jews go to America? Americans are all fat and stupid and starting wars and shit.

America has a huge Jewish population comparable to that of Israel itself and Europe has shown itself to be less than trustworthy when it comes to not gassing millions of people. Also, America doesn't have a huge population of poor, uneducated muslims contributing to antisemitism. Most muslims in America are actually among the upper classes, I think.
 
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