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[Oppo]

anyone watch "Occupation"?

it certainly raised some interesting scenarios, especially w/r/t an isolationist US.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

yeah..

i wonder, how could you beat Russia in a real, all-out war? they have countless nukes.. you can't win against them, all they have to do is threaten to level out Stockholm, Helsinki, Tallinn and a few other European cities and then you'd either have to be crazy and suicidal enough to call their bluff, or just give up and let them win the war.

I was going to say something about NATO, but I've just seen that apparently Sweden are not part of NATO.

I mean, if Russia declared war you'd have to assume France, UK, Germany and so on would step up, even if Trump's US would sit that one out. That being said, I don't see Russia doing something like this any time soon.

 

[Xando]

For all intents and purposes, it seems Russia have outlined their geopolitical intentions in a book

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

This is quite a interesting read. The basically want 1939 borders with some annexations made by germany and russia in eastern europe and germany dominating western europe.

 

[El Topo]

For all intents and purposes, it seems Russia have outlined their geopolitical intentions in a book

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

It's also vague and has very unreasonable expectations. It's a fun piece of fiction for people that like to ignore the real world. Just look at their nonsensical plans for China.
If I look e.g. at the HIV infection rate in Russia I'd say they have other things to worry about than the US or Europe.

 

[Marow]

I honestly don't get why the Russian scare is still so prominent here in Sweden. It's weird. As for the thing about our military, my impression of it was it being partly a crowdpleaser and also to increase funding to a slowly economically disappearing force. Have barely heard of this particular thing.

 

[SolarPowered]

first off, please define "fuckboi" for me, i have no idea what that means.

Someone that talks up a good game only to be taken as a joke.

See: Red lines in Syria (not exactly furious that we didn't get involved in that one tbh)

secondly, the US military is preposterously large. like over 10x the size of everyone else put together. i think they could manage two fronts. it would be a nightmare of course. but logistically, yeah they can handle it.

Theoretically we can, but this undertaking will likely take a lot of bodies. The anti-war protests and riots would make Vietnam protests like small time. Nothing Obama or Trump says/does is going to make this transition "smooth" for half of a America at the very least.

 

[Easy_D]

That's... Very close to my doorstep.

It's right inside my doorstep. Fuck you Russia. Also fuck you Republicans.

Edit:

I honestly don't get why the Russian scare is still so prominent here in Sweden. It's weird. As for the thing about our military, my impression of it was it being partly a crowdpleaser and also to increase funding to a slowly economically disappearing force. Have barely heard of this particular thing.

You know, looking at our own newspapers I can't even find a mention of this thing. I read a couple months ago that they were planning to reintroduced forced conscription to bolster our defences after the whole Russian sub inside the archipelago dealio though. Perhaps this piece of news is just overly alarmist?

Re-Edit, nah seems it's actually true. Well then.

 

[Onlinehero]

It's right inside my doorstep. Fuck you Russia. Also fuck you Republicans.

Edit:


You know, looking at our own newspapers I can't even find a mention of this thing. I read a couple months ago that they were planning to reintroduced forced conscription to bolster our defences after the whole Russian sub inside the archipelago dealio though. Perhaps this piece of news is just overly alarmist?

Re-Edit, nah seems it's actually true. Well then.

It's overly alarmist. It's just bolstering preparations that should already be in place but are neglected due to priorities. It's municipal/kommun level. Do you think your local municipality has considered prioritizing a hypothetical Russian invasion in their budget lately? No, they leave that to Försvarsmakten.

 

[ahoyhoy]

I just...don't understand what Russia hopes to gain here

Like what is the motivation other than dick waving? Seizing economic hubs to boost Russia's GDP? Does Sweden have oil? What do they want?

I think sewing confusion is part of the point. They wave their dick at everyone and everything so that you don't quite know what their true objectives are.

 

[SpaceWolf]

If the Russians do fire their nukes....can Jon really stop them?

 

[NotLiquid]

Wonder if it's high time that I consider finding another country to live in. I want to assume this is just an obvious cautionary preamble rather than outright inevitability though.

 

[Easy_D]

It's overly alarmist. It's just bolstering preparations that should already be in place but are neglected due to priorities. It's municipal/kommun level. Do you think your local municipality has considered prioritizing a hypothetical Russian invasion in their budget lately? No, they leave that to Försvarsmakten.

True. Besides, if it came down to a Russian invasion, they'd probably settle with controlling Gotland, not fullscale invading, more of an occupation, if that.

Wonder if it's high time that I consider finding another country to live in. I want to assume this is just an obvious cautionary preamble rather than outright inevitability though.

Reading up on it a bit more it's more of a "Better safe than sorry". Probably meant to be a deterrent rather than it coming down to an actual invasion/war

 

[RoadHazard]

I mean, come January 20, tanks are free to start rolling. Not saying they will, but you have to doubt that Trump would honor US commitments, particularly with his hero involved.

Yeah, I don't actually expect it to happen, but my trust in the US standing by our side IF it were to happen has gone from basically 100% with Obama (or Clinton, had she won), to very close to 0% with Trump. I don't trust the US as an ally anymore with him at the helm, as I'm pretty sure he doesn't give a single fuck about us.

Russia could go to war against almost any European country and people elsewhere in Europe would cheer. Europe's attempt at eliminating nationalism undermines their ability to raise popular support against a nationalistic enemy, especially since Europeans in general are in fact still nationalists and against centrally-planned denationalization.

What the fuck am I reading?

 

[Helznicht]

I just...don't understand what Russia hopes to gain here

Like what is the motivation other than dick waving? Seizing economic hubs to boost Russia's GDP? Does Sweden have oil? What do they want?

Control over the Baltic Sea. With Crimea they have the Black Sea. That in a future expansion gives them a good basis to take and hold the stretch of land from Poland to Bulgaria. Pushing NATO borders much farther from Moscow then they are today.

 

[GelGel]

In the case of hypothetical conflict, considering the military power of the Swedish army, Russia would win definitely. I don't think that any reform would have change anything.

Here is a video a found about this topic (from a Swede):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8mnaPK6Bno

 

[RoadHazard]

Sweden has no resources, but simply keeping their own state in a "War" mode is going to bolster the economy, and avoid the fact they basically have no real industry. Their another country that's biggest export is oil and oil was getting closer to being on it's way out. This will delay it.

The one thing Reagan actually had right was that, they can't compete at all on the economical field.

This is... what? Sweden has quite a few resources, and is a pretty huge export nation (in relative terms at least), but oil is not one of them. We don't have any, that's Norway. And "war mode"?! Sweden is basically as far from that as you can possibly get without having no army at all. None of your post makes any sense at all.

 

[LegendofJoe]

If I was Sweden and Finland I would have started NATO discussions after Trump won.

They have, they sent representatives to NATO meetings for the first time this year. And this was before Trump was elected. The Baltic nations of Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia are also preparing their citizens for war.

 

[RustyNails]

Why the order to police? Does Sweden have an army?

 

[RoadHazard]

In the case of hypothetical conflict, considering the military power of the Swedish army, Russia would win definitely. I don't think that any reform would have change anything.

Here is a video a found about this topic (from a Swede):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8mnaPK6Bno

Obviously. On our own, we'd last an afternoon. So that's why we have allies. The US used to be one of the most important, and still is for another few weeks, but with Trump soon in power that's looking like a thing of the past. He's made it pretty clear he doesn't really give a fuck about anyone outside the US, and would much rather be best friends with Putin than stand up for some small European country.

Why the order to police? Does Sweden have an army?

Barely.

 

[DrM]

Sweden can carpet bomb Russian towns with that fermented fish cans, but I think that would be in category of chemical weapon usage.

 

[Lautaro]

Here is a video a found about this topic (from a Swede):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8mnaPK6Bno

I don't see how that video is relevant, its only a guy bitching about immigrants and PC culture in Sweden.

On topic: Sweden is not alone even if its not part of NATO, I like to think that Europe would not go to war for Ukraine but the line is drawn with Scandinavia. Start worrying if the Union keeps losing members though (aka Putin's master plan phase 3).

 

[Generalpsyduck]

Trump is gonna pull one of these.

 

[Kill Your Masters]

It's also vague and has very unreasonable expectations. It's a fun piece of fiction for people that like to ignore the real world. Just look at their nonsensical plans for China.
If I look e.g. at the HIV infection rate in Russia I'd say they have other things to worry about than the US or Europe.

Some of those bullet points are already happening.

 

[El Topo]

Some of those bullet points are already happening.

Many of them are so vague that it is pointless to discuss them. UK leaving EU for example has been on the table for decades and is not equal to 'cutting off UK from Europe'.
A Franco-German bloc? You mean something that has been in the making (more or less) since the 80s, but at least since the reunification?
Kaliningrad back to Germany? That is never going to happen and no one in Germany, barring small extreme factions, wants that or cares.

Russia can barely get its shit together internally. You guys are falling for a dumb propaganda trick.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

For all intents and purposes, it seems Russia have outlined their geopolitical intentions in a book

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

COUGH COUGH COUGH

Russia should use its special forces within the borders of the United States to fuel instability and separatism. For instance, provoke "Afro-American racists". Russia should "introduce geopolitical disorder into internal American activity, encouraging all kinds of separatism and ethnic, social and racial conflicts, actively supporting all dissident movements – extremist, racist, and sectarian groups, thus destabilizing internal political processes in the U.S. It would also make sense simultaneously to support isolationist tendencies in American politics."

Hey liberals, show this fucking book and outline to all your family and friends who don't think Russia is some type of threat or Russia doesn't have greater intentions.

 

[Easy_D]

In the case of hypothetical conflict, considering the military power of the Swedish army, Russia would win definitely. I don't think that any reform would have change anything.

Here is a video a found about this topic (from a Swede):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8mnaPK6Bno

That guy has proven himself to be extremely stupid on several occasions lol.

I don't see how that video is relevant, its only a guy bitching about immigrants and PC culture in Sweden.

On topic: Sweden is not alone even if its not part of NATO, I like to think that Europe would not go to war for Ukraine but the line is drawn with Scandinavia. Start worrying if the Union keeps losing members though (aka Putin's master plan phase 3).

Funny part is that he himself *is* an immigrant lol, complete lack of self awareness and empathy towards others.

Sweden can carpet bomb Russian towns with that fermented fish cans, but I think that would be in category of chemical weapon usage.

Using Surströmming in warfare would def be counted as a crime against humanity. Which raises the point, why *isn't* terrible smelling things used more in say, police situations? Like, it'd be hard to hold hostages if you're too busy puking your guts out

 

[KillerMan91]

Even here in Finland first time in decades we are planning to increase our wartime strenght from 230 000 troops to 280 000. Used to be something like 500 000 during cold war days but has shrunk gradually to 230 000.

 

[Liljagare]

Yeah, well, we really let it all go during the 90's early 10's. We used to have a pretty nice storage of everything, now if something happens, Sweden will be out of pretty much everything within a week.

Hardly anyone has a survival kit at home anymore either, let alone just some candles for light/heat.

 

[Onlinehero]

Here is a video a found about this topic (from a Swede):
really stupid shit

Great source!

Regards,
'A Swede'

Don't link YouTube on these issues unless you're a troll, otherwise you're just doing the job for them.

 

[Doikor]

I just...don't understand what Russia hopes to gain here

Like what is the motivation other than dick waving? Seizing economic hubs to boost Russia's GDP? Does Sweden have oil? What do they want?

For Putin to stay in power. As the economy isn't doing so well he needs a clear/easy target for PR purposes. And thus the conflict with the west started again (pretty much the moment the price of oil dropped).

With Russia it really is wrong to think what Russia wants. It is very much what the guy running the country at that moment wants. There has never been a functioning democracy in Russia and I doubt we will see one in a long time. Just going from one kind of a dictator to the next. And dictators will do whatever is needed to stay in power as getting ousted out of power usually means death or losing all assets and exile.

 

[Akuun]

Armed insurgency if they invade. Also consider that both the French and British can individually destroy Russia with nuclear retaliation if they chose to. An all out invasion is a major risk. Out right war is unlikely.

I agree. MAD ensures that even in the event of war, both sides may go all out with conventional warfare but neither side is likely to use nukes. Anyone sane knows that using nukes on a country that also has nukes results in both sides turning into smoking holes in the ground. That's why possessing nukes is important for many countries. Nukes aren't built to be used. They're built to sit there and act as a deterrent against people thinking about using nukes on them.

The only countries that may consider using nukes would be dictator-like people who are either crazy and/or stupid enough to act without understanding MAD... such as Trump, Duterte, and maybe Kim Jong Un...

Wow, the world is pretty fucked up these days.

 

[KillerMan91]

For Putin to stay in power. As the economy isn't doing so well he needs a clear/easy target for PR purposes. And thus the conflict with the west started again (pretty much the moment the price of oil dropped).

With Russia it really is wrong to think what Russia wants. It is very much what the guy running the country at that moment wants. There has never been a functioning democracy in Russia and I doubt we will see one in a long time. Just going from one kind of a dictator to the next.

Well and for that reason it stays only as a dick wawing. Real conflict with modern European state like Sweden or Finland will increase anti-russian sentiment huge amounts in western Europe (despite Russian propaganda) and it will also be a lot more expensive (in terms of money and human casualties) than skirmishes in Ukraine or Syria that barely can make any resistance.

 

[superdeluxe]

Invading Sweden means infringing on a sovereign European nation which means creating a Baltic corridor which means ipso facto, NATO is involved.

If they push into Sweden they will kick off European aggression in return which means NATO is involved. They are, effectively, a de facto NATO state.

But they are not. Which is why everyone is telling them to join

 

[superdeluxe]

wrt Putin it's better to be prepared. Wish we could our shit together and form an EU army, especially now with that twat getting inaugurated soon.

Especially if Trump decides to reduce USA commitment to NATO.

 

[Drazgul]

Even here in Finland first time in decades we are planning to increase our wartime strenght from 230 000 troops to 280 000. Used to be something like 500 000 during cold war days but has shrunk gradually to 230 000.

This time we'll just sit it out and let Sweden deal with the russians.

 

[superdeluxe]

I was going to say something about NATO, but I've just seen that apparently Sweden are not part of NATO.

I mean, if Russia declared war you'd have to assume France, UK, Germany and so on would step up, even if Trump's US would sit that one out. That being said, I don't see Russia doing something like this any time soon.

The US had drag some of their european allies kicking and screaming to keep sanctions on Russia, you think they are going to have boots on the ground to protect a country where they are under no obligation to?

 

[superdeluxe]

They have, they sent representatives to NATO meetings for the first time this year. And this was before Trump was elected. The Baltic nations of Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia are also preparing their citizens for war.

Nato representatives, participating in drills, allowing NATO access to use their bases in case of war doesn't get you in the club. Sweden and Finland could be fast tracked, mostly due to how their militaries are already set up to mesh with NATO forces.

 

[Yamauchi]

For all intents and purposes, it seems Russia have outlined their geopolitical intentions in a book

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

Dugin has, to some extent, fallen out of favor with Putin in recent years.

 

[Keasar]

Our hope is rather that other NATO countries would intervene on behalf of preserving our neutrality (which is neutrality BUT leaning very much one side towards the west).

But most likely they would intervene on the fact that we control the important bits of the Baltic sea.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

I just...don't understand what Russia hopes to gain here

Like what is the motivation other than dick waving? Seizing economic hubs to boost Russia's GDP? Does Sweden have oil? What do they want?

They want a weak Europe. And by Europe they mean Germany,France and the UK

 

[Jasup]

The US had drag some of their european allies kicking and screaming to keep sanctions on Russia, you think they are going to have boots on the ground to protect a country where they are under no obligation to?

The sanctions against Russia are a bit different matter as Russia was and still is an important trade partner with many European countries. Those sanctions meant a huge loss of trade revenue for many economies and led to diminished economic growth. There was also a very strong argument that instead of trying to force Russia to comply with a stick, Europe should use the carrot of better economic integration and opportunity if they were willing to steer themselves more towards Europe. Prior to what happened in Ukraine and the Crimean annexation, there was a strong minority in European politics that talked about the possibility of Russia eventually being an EU member - of course after all the member reguirements had been met. But the idea was that the incentive for Russia to steer that way would be strong. Of course, it was a minority position, but the sanctions were not a black and white thing at all.

The answer to the question is another question, do you think Russia would risk it?

At the current state the answer is, I believe, a resounding no. However, if the nationalistic movements across the Europe do get a stronger foothold and fracture European integration, eventually it could be possible. Small isolated countries are a hell of a lot easier targets to influence than huge political unions.

 

[Ardenyal]

United europe and european army, make it happen lol

 

[Sarek]

Prior to what happened in Ukraine and the Crimean annexation, there was a strong minority in European politics that talked about the possibility of Russia eventually being an EU member - of course after all the member reguirements had been met..

I've never seen anyone seriously suggest that Russia would an EU member one day. It definitely wasn't an issue that had the support of a "strong minority".

 

[Ragnar Blackmane]

The US had drag some of their european allies kicking and screaming to keep sanctions on Russia, you think they are going to have boots on the ground to protect a country where they are under no obligation to?

Putin invading Sweden (and likely Finnland as well for that matter) would pretty much trigger the same reaction that the German invasion of Belgium in '39 had for the UK. Sweden being attacked would trigger a "we're going to be next" feeling in every other Western European country even among the most pacifistic, especially in Poland, the UK, Germany and France. Even more so as Sweden is "neutral" per se and no threat to Russia to begin with. It would be the same thing as invading Switzerland. If Scandinavia gets attacked it will 100% trigger the NATO. Heck, there are already plenty joined NATO exercises in Scandinavia. There is a reason everyone in the NATO is trying to convince Sweden and Finnland to join, because that would make military coordination and defense much easier.

 

[LegendofJoe]

Even here in Finland first time in decades we are planning to increase our wartime strenght from 230 000 troops to 280 000. Used to be something like 500 000 during cold war days but has shrunk gradually to 230 000.

One my best friends from school is Finnish. If Russia ever dares to invade I will set her up in the US and send whatever resources I can to help the country. I'll be damned if I stand by while authoritarianism takes over Europe.

 

[HStallion]

yeah..

i wonder, how could you beat Russia in a real, all-out war? they have countless nukes.. you can't win against them, all they have to do is threaten to level out Stockholm, Helsinki, Tallinn and a few other European cities and then you'd either have to be crazy and suicidal enough to call their bluff, or just give up and let them win the war.

I'm not sure Russia would want to nuke a country so close to them. Fallout doesn't just occur right where the bomb drop. The winds would be carrying a lot of radiation all over including Russia.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I feel like we've been living a Clancy novel this year.

 

[Tacitus_]

The US had drag some of their european allies kicking and screaming to keep sanctions on Russia, you think they are going to have boots on the ground to protect a country where they are under no obligation to?

The EU has a mutual defence treaty, but it's somewhat vague. The other members would be obligated to help in some fashion, even if it's not directly with troops and materiel

 

[Forsete]

Swedish authorities in 2015 allocated an additional 6.2 billion Kronor (£533 million) to increase defence capabilities between 2016 and 2020, reportedly due to increasing concerns over Russia’s presence in the Baltic Sea

No where close to enough monies.

The armed forces are in fact still in a dismantling mode. ~97 Saab 39 Gripen fighters will become ~60.
They had to raid a museum to get RBS 15 ( long-range fire-and-forget surface-to-surface and air-to-surface, anti-ship missile) back in business.

Give them the monies they need.

 

[Nivash]

No where close to enough monies.

The armed forces are in fact still in a dismantling mode. ~97 Saab 39 Gripen fighters will become ~60.
They had to raid a museum to get RBS 15 ( long-range fire-and-forget surface-to-surface and air-to-surface, anti-ship missile) back in business.

Give them the monies they need.

No, no, can't do that. We need that for more important stuff. No idea what that stuff is, but it sure must be important!