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[Sniper McBlaze]

Wow, NeoGAF is such a bullshit place. If you have an polarizing opinion you get banned.

The truth is that immigrants in Sweden are heavily over-represented in crime and sexual assault statistics. Sweden has failed in integrating different cultures into the society and most of the reported sexual assaults were by immigrants. We've had the same problem at many other festivals.

So I think it's bullshit to blame swedish men when we have failed as a group. Everyone should be responsible.

 

[MadJackChurchill]

The truth is that immigrants in Sweden are heavily over-represented in crime and sexual assault statistics. Sweden has failed in integrating different cultures into the society and most of the reported sexual assaults were by immigrants. We've had the same problem at many other festivals. .

Immigrants are 2.5x more likely to be accused of crimes, but they're no more likely to be convicted. The report of sexual crimes reached a ten year low in 2014, only to increase back to the pre-2014 levels in 2015 and beyond. Now either Swedish men have learned to behave like total saints in the space of a year, or the increase in sexual violence is proportional with the number of refugees taken in.

 

[Sniper McBlaze]

Immigrants are 2.5x more likely to be accused of crimes, but they're no more likely to be convicted. The report of sexual crimes reached a ten year low in 2014, only to increase back to the pre-2014 levels in 2015 and beyond. Now either Swedish men have learned to behave like total saints in the space of a year, or the increase in sexual violence is proportional with the number of refugees taken in.

Ok, let me be more specific. Immigrants are over-represented in crimes like groping at festivals, group rapes and sexual assault (don't know the name, but it's when a stranger attacks and rape you).

 

[MadJackChurchill]

Ok, let me be more specific. Immigrants are over-represented in crimes like groping at festivals, group rapes and sexual assault (don't know the name, but it's when a stranger attacks and rape you).

Receipts please. Because the reports I'm looking at suggest it's (obviously) exceptionally harder to find the perpetrator at concerts.

 

[amanset]

You have to be some kind of wack ass dude to really be bothered by this.

It doesn't really bother me, I just don't think it will achieve much beyond getting the comedian's name in the press.

And yes, I live in Sweden and have been known to go to festivals, so this affects me more than 99% of the people in this thread.

 

[TSM]

I don't have any particular feelings on this proposed festival, but I do find it sad that decades of progressive movement in society could be so easily surrendered in the name of expediency. Then again these don't feel like very progressive times we live in at the moment.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I don't have any particular feelings on this proposed festival, but I do find it sad that decades of progressive movement in society could be so easily surrendered in the name of expediency. Then again these don't feel like very progressive times we live in at the moment.

We've had women's only music festivals for 40 years.

Nothing is being surrendered

 

[TSM]

We've had women's only music festivals for 40 years.

Nothing is being surrendered

After decades of fighting for inclusion having people feel nothing is being lost through exclusion is unfortunate. Also 40 years of anything happening is not in itself an argument for it's continuation.

 

[excelsiorlef]

After decades of fighting for inclusion having people feel nothing is being lost through exclusion is unfortunate. Also 40 years of anything happening is not in itself an argument for it's continuation.

You said it was a step back.

It's not new. It's not a step back.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

They did all of that, actually.

No they didn't. Did you read one of the articles? Read the digitalmusicnews article in tearsintherain's post. The bouncers didn't do shit. They actually contributed to it. You call that 'hiring better security'?

'Did everything they could do', my fucking ass.

 

[Krauser Kat]

And you can't agree that rape is unacceptable unless you agree to the measures taken here as well? Come on. People can be against rape culture and still think this is wrong.

Ehhhhhh. I dont think you can. Why is this event wrong?.
It creates a safe space for women.
It creates a conversation about men and their treatment of women.
It creates a finite consequence for men and their by in large ideas about rape and sexuality

All of those things promote the discussion and dissemination of rape culture to a wider group. Saying this event is wrong is a man telling women how they should protect, converse and interact with the music scene.

One of the largest factors of rape culture is this narrow view of what rape is and the severe lack of consequences for it.

 

[Skinpop]

Ehhhhhh. I dont think you can. Why is this event wrong?.
It creates a safe space for women.
It creates a conversation about men and their treatment of women.
It creates a finite consequence for men and their by in large ideas about rape and sexuality

It can clearly be seen as wrong on the grounds of exclusion and gross generalisation, how isn't that obvious?

All of those things promote the discussion and dissemination of rape culture to a wider group. Saying this event is wrong is a man telling women how they should protect, converse and interact with the music scene.

Well that depends on the argument: my racial and socio-economic identity doesn't invalidate my reasoning, experience and logic even though some people without acknowledging the bigotry in doing so are terrifyingly ardent in pushing that viewpoint. When people - at least some of us - say they are fed up with identity politics, it's not because they don't recognize or are ignorant about minority issues but because of the increasing prevalence of these kind suppression techniques.

As for man-free music festivals, I say go for it and see if the financials hold up - if it does then great, clearly there's a demand to be met. We had men's nights at a local bathhouse in my town here in Sweden where we'd bath naked and drink beer in the sauna so I fully appreciate that there are places and times where it's not harmful. Unfortunately those nights where shut down because some locals of superior moral fiber didn't like the idea of men-exclusive nude bathing once every two weeks.

 

[Krauser Kat]

It can clearly be seen as wrong on the grounds of exclusion and gross generalisation, how isn't that obvious?


Well that depends on the argument: my racial and socio-economic identity doesn't invalidate my reasoning, experience and logic even though some people without acknowledging the bigotry in doing so are terrifyingly ardent in pushing that viewpoint. When people - at least some of us - say they are fed up with identity politics, it's not because they don't recognize or are ignorant about minority issues but because of the increasing prevalence of these kind suppression techniques.

As for man-free music festivals, I say go for it and see if the financials hold up - if it does then great, clearly there's a demand to be met. We had men's nights at a local bathhouse in my town here in Sweden where we'd bath naked and drink beer in the sauna so I fully appreciate that there are places and times where it's not harmful. Unfortunately those nights where shut down because some locals of superior moral fiber didn't like the idea of men-exclusive nude bathing once every two weeks.

Fuck the bolded. There is no gross generalization. #NOTALL________ arguments are always straw men used by people to hold up the status quo and an idea of a world that is just not real. Men by far commit the most rape and sexual assaults. People who use this dont want to believe a world in where men are as terrible as the data shows. People who cant come to terms with this, you perpetuate rape culture and subjugation of the sexual independence of women.

When women say, we need to have safer public spaces and maybe making them women only will help. The response should never ever be "but not all men are terrible, you cant exclude us good men" the only response is "How do we, as men, help make this better". Any argument about gross generalization and exclusion places the lives of men and any judgement of their quality above trying to improve quality of life of for women.

 

[PSqueak]

I don't see how women only excludes non-nonbinary trans people

Their word choice sends the clear message that this is not a TERF event.

Imagine a trans woman showing up to a "women only" event and finding out it's held by TERFs that would instantly pile on her for daring to be herself.

 

[Beer Monkey]

There were similar events in the 70's.

There was a festival in Michigan until a couple of years ago. MichFest. Nobody was allowed with a penis..or who was born with a penis. Of any age, including infants. Not for stage/crew/roadies, etc.

I have a friend who went for years. We aren't really friends any more as she's a lesbian TERF, and fuck TERFs.

I hadn't been paying close enough to the fest to realize that it was exhibiting TERF policies aka "womyn born womyn".

EDIT: I searched the thread for MichFest before posting, now I see it; must have mispelled it.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

This is a pretty slippery fucking slope.

Pretty bogus for gay dudes too.

 

[Skinpop]

Fuck the bolded.

I didn't refer to "man-free festivals" when I said "suppression techniques", I meant the rhetoric where a persons identity is brought up to silence or dismiss/exclude their opinion/arguments.

The response should never ever be "but not all men are terrible, you cant exclude us good men" the only response is "How do we, as men, help make this better".

No you are wrong here, that's a legitimate concern and it's not like both things can't be discussed.

 

[Krauser Kat]

No you are wrong here, that's a legitimate concern and it's not like both things can't be discussed.

So you believe excluding men from events is as important as keeping women from being raped?

Bringing up the exclusions or generalizations and putting those issues as high as women getting harassed and assaulted diminishes the severity of the problem.

When you come into a conversation with that, it shifts the focus from the actual problem (women being harassed) onto how you dont wish to be perceived as an asshole.

Asking how we as men can help, works towards solving both problems without derailing the discussion on your fragility. Be more confident that you are a good person and fight for good.

I agree that people shouldn't police other based on identity but most men have nothing to add to conversations about rape and harassment other listening and asking how to help and educating ourselves on the experience of others. Men created the world and culture that started these problems, we need to work to fix them, not try and make ourselves feel better.

 

[Rentahamster]

If the assaults have gotten this bad, then the idea is worth a shot.

 

[BocoDragon]

I wonder if identity politics actually does correct for and eventually neutralize sexism and racism. I'm feeling pretty skeptical that it ultimately does.

 

[flintstryker]

Fuck the bolded. There is no gross generalization. #NOTALL________ arguments are always straw men used by people to hold up the status quo and an idea of a world that is just not real. Men by far commit the most rape and sexual assaults. People who use this dont want to believe a world in where men are as terrible as the data shows. People who cant come to terms with this, you perpetuate rape culture and subjugation of the sexual independence of women.

When women say, we need to have safer public spaces and maybe making them women only will help. The response should never ever be "but not all men are terrible, you cant exclude us good men" the only response is "How do we, as men, help make this better". Any argument about gross generalization and exclusion places the lives of men and any judgement of their quality above trying to improve quality of life of for women.

This sounds awfully a lot like some dumb shit people expecting Muslims to speak out against extremist each time they kill a bunch of people, guess what whether man or woman you're gonna have people who are cunts and I'm not gonna huddle together and try to fix the cuntishness of others that I so happen to share a characteristic with.

 

[Adam_Vania]

I wonder if identity politics actually does correct for and eventually neutralize sexism and racism. I'm feeling pretty skeptical that it ultimately does.

i dont know and i dont really think so. couldn't you have a person with male genitals that only has sex with women still identify as a non-man show up to this and demand entry? here is the flaw in you-and-you-alone-get-to-choose-your-identity crowd.

we have to admit that gender constructs, while arbitrary to some degree, are a real thing that has shaped the world for thousands of years. some identity politics these days is ahistorical and i feel throws out the baby with the bathwater.

 

[Skinpop]

So you believe excluding men from events is as important as keeping women from being raped?

I think the answer to that question isn't as obvious as you seem to think. As a niche thing, I see no problem with female-only events, women who don't want to share a space with men get to do so and that's not a problem. But as a general answer to the question of how events should be arranged I think exclusion would be a far worse crime.

Bringing up the exclusions or generalizations and putting those issues as high as women getting harassed and assaulted diminishes the severity of the problem.

How do you measure how "high" an issue should be ranked? 20000 excluded for the crimes of a few vs 20 cases of sexual harassment? How many instances of exclusion equals one instance of sexual harassment? It's obviously not unbounded since we allow men to roam our cities and public spaces even though we know that rape exists and will continue to exist for as long as humans are still around. Unless of course you do think that men should have limited access to public spaces. That's not to say I don't think it's a huge issue or that I take the suffering of victims lightly. The safety of attendants is clearly lacking and if any drastic measure are to be taken I'd rather shut it all down until organizers have figured out how to ensure sufficient security and I mean that for all events of this kind, not this once specific instance which again I won't protest if it goes women-only.

 

[Krauser Kat]

This sounds awfully a lot like some dumb shit people expecting Muslims to speak out against extremist each time they kill a bunch of people, guess what whether man or woman you're gonna have people who are cunts and I'm not gonna huddle together and try to fix the cuntishness of others that I so happen to share a characteristic with.

if you dont care about fixing a problem why even contribute to a conversation. I want to help try wherever i can. To me this is always listening asking how i can help change the current status quo.

But as a general answer to the question of how events should be arranged I think exclusion would be a far worse crime.

I just dont agree with this. Its not exclusion if its an event created for an by women because they believe they cannot be safe given the current set up of the event.

How do you measure how "high" an issue should be ranked? 20000 excluded for the crimes of a few vs 20 cases of sexual harassment? How many instances of exclusion equals one instance of sexual harassment? It's obviously not unbounded since we allow men to roam our cities and public spaces even though we know that rape exists and will continue to exist for as long as humans are still around. Unless of course you do think that men should have limited access to public spaces. That's not to say I don't think it's a huge issue or that I take the suffering of victims lightly. The safety of attendants is clearly lacking and if any drastic measure are to be taken I'd rather shut it all down until organizers have figured out how to ensure sufficient security and I mean that for all events of this kind, not this once specific instance which again I won't protest if it goes women-only.

less then 30% of all rapes and asssault are reported on average so the number of people assaulted was most likely in the 60s or 70s. Would you take the dice roll on being a woman and having a 1/142 (assuming 50% of the crowd is men and 70 people are still getting assaulted) chance of having your life changed forever.

Women already have a 1/6 to 1/5 chance of being sexually assaulted in their lifetime. Its pretty fucking dire. Which is why this more of an education battle about improving and fighting the culture that supports people who dont believe assaulting women is a big problem.

When people come into these threads and their first thought isnt "this is terrible, how can we help women not get raped" and is "how terrible is it that men are excluded" That action supports the culture that lets this happen in the first place. They might not even know, because they havent had a chance to learn about it.

 

[InterMusketeer]

When people come into these threads and their first thought isnt "this is terrible, how can we help women not get raped" and is "how terrible is it that men are excluded" That action supports the culture that lets this happen in the first place. They might not even know, because they havent had a chance to learn about it.

It's common sense that you'd want to help rape victims. Everyone in this thread does. There's no use repeating that everytime sexual abuse happens. It's obvious. The real question is: How do you help victims, and prevent abuse from happening? What is the right response, and when do you go too far?

That's why we're talking about the actual interesting subject here, which is how this Swedish comedian decided to respond to it and how that might not be the best idea, especially seeing the bad justification given.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

It's common sense that you'd want to help rape victims. Everyone in this thread does. There's no use repeating that everytime sexual abuse happens. It's obvious. The real question is: How do you help victims, and prevent abuse from happening? What is the right response, and when do you go too far?

In regard to your thoughts about going too far.
How exactly will this harm men? Could you please be as specific as possible with the potential ramifications?
You see I don't se any worth in discussions unless we talk will effects and real problems.

That's why we're talking about the actual interesting subject here, which is how this Swedish comedian decided to respond to it and how that might not be the best idea, especially seeing the bad justification given.

So again I would like to talk real problems and ramifications. How exactly is the safety of women not a good justification?
We have given examples of women only festivals in this very thread.

 

[KUON.0101]

Sure, let's also turn back refugee men who entered the country, due to Cologne and similar spikes in crime.

Oh wait, that would go against my rose tinted glasses that i have of the world. I do hope you know how looney some of you guys sound in regards to nearly any society on earth. For good reason as well.

Aaaaaan there we go again. In the end there are always people who turn towards the "other" (immigrants, refugees) as the problem.

FYI sexual harassment and violence against women isn't something that the immigrants brought. It was always there.

 

[Ryaaan14]

It's astounding how many men get away with sexual assault at music festivals. This is a good thing. And I'm normally against the idea of exclusionary events.

 

[Subpar Scrub]

40k attendees.

Assume half are men. 27 incidents. Assuming that they were commited by a different individual each...

99.99% of the attending men did not commit sexual assault.
0.1% did

"All men are rapists, therefore they're excluded"

Don't get me wrong, sexual assault is vile but if you were to profile a collective on 0.1% incidence rate, you'd be lambasted an rightfully so.

As a comparison, 2.7% african americans are in jail right now. Profiling african americans for a 2.7% incidence is a repulsive practice that regularly gets condemned (as it should) .

Post that basically covers what I was going to say.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

Post that basically covers what I was going to say.

And it is still BS.
We have used gender segregation for a long while. That is including festivals.
Please do inform us on what problems have effected men cause of gender segregation.

 

[excelsiorlef]

40k attendees.

Assume half are men. 27 incidents. Assuming that they were commited by a different individual each...

99.99% of the attending men did not commit sexual assault.
0.1% did

"All men are rapists, therefore they're excluded"

Don't get me wrong, sexual assault is vile but if you were to profile a collective on 0.1% incidence rate, you'd be lambasted an rightfully so.

As a comparison, 2.7% african americans are in jail right now. Profiling african americans for a 2.7% incidence is a repulsive practice that regularly gets condemned (as it should) .

You understand the significant difference between jail vs a women's music festival eh?

 

[pompidu]

Not sure how this stops sexual assault, women rape and assault other women too. So I'm not sure what the goal is here.

 

[KarneeKarnay]

Let them. What's the worst case scenario if this happens?

Women find out other women are just as predatory or perhaps there are less sexual assaults. If it's the latter, then it's shameful and Sweden is going to have to take a look at itself.

It's just one fest. Let them and see what happens.

 

[H.Protagonist]

Not sure how this stops sexual assault, women rape and assault other women too. So I'm not sure what the goal is here.

It's not meant to stop sexual assault as a whole. It's meant to give women an alternative where they feel safer given the rampant sexual assaults by men at the concert that has been canceled.

 

[Dynasty]

What qualifies as a women for this potential future concert?

Would a person with a penis who identifies as a women be allowed in? If yes, then I can imagine a lot of people trolling, how would they identify people who are faking it to be pricks and those being honest. If it is a straight no, then wouldnt that be a step back for the LGBT community?

What about gay people? I'd imagine they would have little reason to sexually assualt a women so should they suffer for the sins of all cis men? And again if gay people are allowed in, how would people catch the fakes who are trolling?

 

[Darth Ghandi]

What qualifies as a women for this potential future concert?

Would a person with a penis who identifies as a women be allowed in? If yes, then I can imagine a lot of people trolling, how would they identify people who are faking it to be pricks and those being honest. If it is a straight no, then wouldnt that be a step back for the LGBT community?

What about gay people? I'd imagine they would have little reason to sexually assualt a women so should they suffer for the sins of all cis men? And again if gay people are allowed in, how would people catch the fakes who are trolling?

Did you read the OP?

 

[Dynasty]

Did you read the OP?

I read it last night and so didnt bother reading it again

Read through the whole OP again, still doesnt explain how they will identify the trolls but I guess the extra effort men would have to make to get in would result in way less men.

 

[zoukka]

Let them. What's the worst case scenario if this happens?

Women find out other women are just as predatory or perhaps there are less sexual assaults. If it's the latter, then it's shameful and Sweden is going to have to take a look at itself.

It's just one fest. Let them and see what happens.

Of course it's going to happen.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

I read it last night and so didnt bother reading it again

Read through the whole OP again, still doesnt explain how they will identify the trolls but I guess the extra effort men would have to make to get in would result in way less men.

"Slate’s Christina Cauterucci wrote that ” ‘man-free’ offers Knyckare a bit more flexibility than ‘women-only’ ” because it is inclusive of people who are gender nonbinary or transgender."


Now I'm guessing that you mean "what about the dudes who want to upset and try and sabotage the event by claiming they are women.

First I have never seen this happen in other gender segregated situations. So I'm unsure of how wide spread it is, could you perhaps give us an example of this happening irl?

And if it does happen under the pretext of lulz then that would be a very strong argument to why it would be needed.

 

[jipewithin]

I think this is a great idea.

Problem is in toxic masculinity and objectifying women. I really don't think its fair that women have to suffer because some men can't behave. I have to say I expected more of Swedish men not to behave like total brutes. Just shameful... I guess the problems are pretty much all over the world and sometimes things like these just makes me ashamed of being a male.

 

[pompidu]

It's not meant to stop sexual assault as a whole. It's meant to give women an alternative where they feel safer given the rampant sexual assaults by men at the concert that has been canceled.

More security? Idk.

But if they believe this is a fix to their issue, then I support it.

 

[Transhuman]

Of course it's going to happen.

The article didn't mention whether the perpetrators in the rapes and sexual assaults were male, so we will never know.

 

[RoadHazard]

The issue is real and needs to be discussed and dealt with, but I personally don't think collectively blaming all men is the right way.

How about this: "Let's throw a festival for only non-Muslims until all Muslims learn how to behave!"

That's clearly not okay. We don't blame all Muslims and ban them from social events because a small minority of them like to blow themselves up and drive trucks into gatherings of people. Why is this different? The vast majority of men would never do this shit, but it's somehow on all of us to take responsibility for the few that do? It's dangerously close to the "all men are rapists" rethoric. Can't accept that.

 

[H.Protagonist]

More security? Idk.

But if they believe this is a fix to their issue, then I support it.

The festival that was cancelled has a history of sexual assaults and had to be axed because the number of those assaults just kept growing. The problem was known and either they did add more security and it was ineffective, or they just found further policing cut too far into their profits, so "more security" has not been the answer here. Given that people seem more passionate about being excluded than actually combating the root problem, it's easy to see why this seems like an appealing option for women. Nothing else is really being done, after all.

 

[excelsiorlef]

The article didn't mention whether the perpetrators in the rapes and sexual assaults were male, so we will never know.

Ummmm considering the whole story I think we do.

They'd have said that some were by women if some were by women.

 

[Transhuman]

How about this: "Let's throw a festival for only non-Muslims until all Muslims learn how to behave!"

That's clearly not okay. We don't blame all Muslims and ban them from social events because a small minority of them like to blow themselves up and drive trucks into gatherings of people. Why is this different?

It's not fashionable to be racist. That's the difference.

Ummmm considering the whole story I think we do.

They'd have said that some were by women if some were by women.

Sure sure.

 

[H.Protagonist]

The article didn't mention whether the perpetrators in the rapes and sexual assaults were male, so we will never know.

The event organizers specifically cited "certain men" as the reason for the cancellation.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

The issue is real and needs to be discussed and dealt with, but I personally don't think collectively blaming all men is the right way.

How about this: "Let's throw a festival for only non-Muslims until all Muslims learn how to behave!"

That's clearly not okay. We don't blame all Muslims and ban them from social events because a small minority of them like to blow themselves up and drive trucks into gatherings of people. Why is this different? The vast majority of men would never do this shit, but it's somehow on all of us to take responsibility for the few that do? It's dangerously close to the "all men are rapists" rethoric. Can't accept that.

Loool. Comparing men to Muslims.

Care to explain the exact intersectional discrimination, racism, and islamophobia between men and Muslims?

 

[Transhuman]

The event organizers specifically cited "certain men" as the reason for the cancellation.

That wording doesn't specifically indicate that 100% of the sexual assaults had male perpetrators.

To reiterate RoadHazard's point, lets say that all of the sexual assaults were committed by immigrants (i'm not saying this is the case, this is a hypothetical). Would banning immigrants from the festival be acceptable in your eyes? I don't see how that question gets answered without hypocrisy or racism.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

That wording doesn't specifically indicate that 100% of the sexual assaults had male perpetrators.

To reiterate RoadHazard's point, lets say that all of the sexual assaults were committed by immigrants (i'm not saying this is the case, this is a hypothetical). Would banning immigrants from the festival be acceptable in your eyes? I don't see how that question gets answered without hypocrisy or racism.

Well before answering I would like both you or RoadHazard to explain what exact institutionalized discriminatory behavior is faced by both Muslim and men.

Unless you can fins anything else I'm going to assume the assaults had men behind them.


Also again we are entering the real of FANTASY.
You are now making a FICTITIOUS scenario to make a point.
If you compare men with immigrants I would ask also you to explain the intersectional institutionalized discrimination between the groups.



Also we have posted many times in this thread that women only festivals are a real thing and have had zero impact on men.