A gender neutral concert will never solve the problem of sexual assault either. The only thing that can do that is shifts in laws and cultural thinking. Gee, I wonder why don't people ever browbeat "inclusive" functions for not saving the world.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Swedish Comedian organizing man-free music fest until they learn how to behave
- Thread starter Andrew Korenchkin
- Start date
A gender neutral concert will never solve the problem of sexual assault either. The only thing that can do that is shifts in laws and cultural thinking. Gee, I wonder why don't people ever browbeat "inclusive" functions for not saving the world.
Moff
Member
as far as I see, this is not an actual event but just a commentary from a comedian to provoke a discussion about assaults at festivals
edit: nevermind, apparently they are getting organization on motion
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Either way, you get the same results. Better security means nothing in these crowds and when friends cover or egg on friends. You also have a history of men not knowing what consent is and a bias of people thinking she wanted it because of her clothing. Heck, lots of thirsty dudes go to this cause they think a woman in a bikini will blow them. There's multiple layers to this that security and bigger highlighted policies won't fix, you know this.
Either way. Hypothetically, if they highlighted and increased security, shouldn't y'all be upset you've been labelled as a possible abuser? That is what they're their for. Your discomfort is quite selective it seems.
hydragonwarrior
Member
I'm fine with it. I'm fine with men only music festivals too (although no one would go to them)
Try to keep in mind that the festival didn't ban men, it got outright cancelled and this is a completely separate thing. You should probably direct your annoyances at the men who got the first one cancelled in the first place.
H.Protagonist
[-_-]/
You know, things really haven't changed much since the drink covering thread all those years ago. Guys are still more up in arms over a perceived slight than the actual reasons why women would want a lady-only festival. Maybe some of you aren't aware, but women self-exclude themselves from events and places all the time to avoid the bullshit. It's something we weigh when we go out. Must be nice to only have to get angry about the mere idea of an event that's only even being considered because of the rampant sexual assaults that HAVE happened.
You never had one, so why bother? Women are assaulted and raped and your issue is hypothetical event which excludes a group which never faced systemic opression. Lowest form of entitlement.
Read my post again maybe.
Funyarinpa
Member
Think about why such a drastic, discriminatory and unfair measure had to be taken. That's how I came to terms with it.
Ok one simple way of looking at this.
At other festivals, there is no doubt that women suffer more than men. Yes, men are violent to both men and women, but the sexual harassment obviously hurt women more.
This is a festival for only women. You might consider this a sort of "suffering" for innocent men. But the women suffering harassment (or much worse) are also innocent. So this festival slightly (just very slightly) balances things out.
This is if you want to talk about "fair", or about "men suffering from this". Another to look at it is to just say "huh a festival for women. Ok I wanna go to a festival too, I'll go to another festival!"
A final way to look at it is: "women only? Bah I wont be beat! Next up: MEN ONLY festival".
Go ahead!
At other festivals, there is no doubt that women suffer more than men. Yes, men are violent to both men and women, but the sexual harassment obviously hurt women more.
This is a festival for only women. You might consider this a sort of "suffering" for innocent men. But the women suffering harassment (or much worse) are also innocent. So this festival slightly (just very slightly) balances things out.
This is if you want to talk about "fair", or about "men suffering from this". Another to look at it is to just say "huh a festival for women. Ok I wanna go to a festival too, I'll go to another festival!"
A final way to look at it is: "women only? Bah I wont be beat! Next up: MEN ONLY festival".
Go ahead!
That is not a good argument. We had issues (including rape) with migrants in Germany. So you would be in favor of banning them all (back to the war; from public spaces; from activities), because you thought about why such a measure *had* to be taken. If you come to terms with such an inhumane conclusion, fine, but I will still oppose that heinous ideology you're backing with that.
And I for once thought that human decency and justice would be two of the pillarstones of progressives. Instead, I see people defending blatant sexism, just because it's from the "right" people. Instead of bringing those rapists to justice, focus on better security measures and better education, some people want to paint all persons who share similar physical traits indiscriminately as monsters. Does that sound familiar to you? Because you're sharing more with racists and sexists than you probably believe you would.
I was talking about the initiative, not the person who is behind it. You just pointed out the obvious, that's why I said it is a complex problem.
There is zero progress doing this, it is a clever way to completely ignore the problem.
Master of the obvious, but this is exclusive and not inclusive.
¯\_(ツ
_/¯Stop oppressing white men!
I am sarcastic, it's disappointing some can't get why women want space to themselves.
My use of inclusive was talking about the aforementioned "gender neutral concerts."
Minority-centric functions seem to always have these irrelevant appeals to altruism hoisted upon them as the criteria to exist by the people who weren't invited, when the fact is the people actually hosting and attending said events never actually positioned them as a long-term solution to the problem of oppression so much as they are a temporary reprieve from the oppression in the meantime until it gets fixed. They're the donuts to the flat tire that is a shitty world.
Concerts, exclusive or otherwise, need not necessarily hold any real philanthropic function to exist. You as a man not being hypothetically invited to one of them because women don't know you from Adam's housecat in a world where sexual assault by men is a very real possibility doesn't really mean anything towards this one idea in particular, unless for some odd reason you are willing to hold the ones you actually are invited to to the same irrelevant standard of "helping to solve the problem of sexual assault."
Funyarinpa
Member
Regarding the refugee analogy: The decision here is between the attendance of men to one (new) festival out of many and safety of numerous women.
With refugees, denying admittance involves a far bigger drawback- as you know. The stakes are incomparably higher. Which is why I'd be against such a measure against refugees.
As for your latter points, they really pain me too- but I've quickly lost hope in how efficient any educational/policy measures will be in today's sociopolitical climate. Today's society is too divided, and too much of it is marginalized and/or radicalized for humane measures to work. If we have to resort to sexist bullshit now to get things back in order... I don't know, all right? It pains me too to think about this, but it seems like humans are unable to get their shit in order. I see what you mean. I really do. It hurts to say that perhaps this drastic measure, which unjustly sees all of us men as potential rapists, is the one we need to decide upon. I've just given up on humanity achieving equality through unity, so I support radical and discriminatory measures that achieve it instead. The primary goal now, for me, is to stop inordinate suffering caused by preconceived notions and circumstances in society- not to unite people. Removing inequality is perhaps achieved through enmity and paranoia, instead- I haven't seen goodwill do any good so I've lost faith in it.
excelsiorlef
Member
Last time I checked this proposed music festival isn't sending men to die in a war torn country.
old
Member
We call those Rush concerts.
fabricated backlash
Member
It would create publicity but solve nothing other than getting some people mad and others to pat themselves on the back.
Are we likening men to refugees again to pretend men are the ones being opressed here?
excelsiorlef
Member
And be a probably fun event for women but sure....
Pretty much where I am on this. Well put.
fabricated backlash
Member
That might be more reliant on the actual Lineup.
Linkstrikesback
Member
And how do you propose I as a random male prevent others I would never have met before nor have any idea of there intentions from doing anything?
I assure you that the male gender have not been keeping any secret psychic powers hidden.
I imagine the majority of people don't spend money to go to concerts for acts they don't like or care about.
fabricated backlash
Member
Oh btw just to make it clear, I don't want them not to do a women only Event. Go ahead, have fun, but I do think it's pretty much useless as a teachable moment.
Good thing they're not advertising it as a teachable moment or we'd have a real problem on our hands.
More Lez Zeppelin, Vag Halen and AC/DShe and less Led Zeppelin, Van Halen and AC/DC
fabricated backlash
Member
From the words of the comedian one could get the wrong idea.
Temporary solution? This is by no means a solution AT ALL.
Opression its a very REAL problem and pretending it doesn't exist by creating an event that ignores every single hurdle that any other organizer have dealing with these problems it's as childish as it can be.
Are we going to segregate ALL muslims because they are main terrorist threat to the world nowadays and we don't have any way to deal with it yet? This uses the same logic and why it is perceived as wrong and the other is not?
This has nothing do to with being invited or not, in fact it does not affect me at all. What makes me awe is the apparent use of the current status quo to justify the existence of such non-sense.
It does not address the problem, does not identify the root cause, doesn't propose any kind of real solution (doesn't even try actually), it does nothing!
Sorry, this is common sense, basic logic, why are we still discussing it?
It's most likely been mentioned before but this is a separate event from the one that was canceled. The other thing that already has been said already is that most cases of sexual assault or harassment aren't reported. I've had female friends in the summer who have told me about unwanted glances and attention because they're wearing a tanktop and it's 90 degree's out.
Being a gay male certainly doesn't exempt from being a guy but it does give me a certain vantage point to address men with rather than a woman who are already very uncomfortable in a certain situation.
And as someone mentioned so many spaces and events are male oriented and there are never arguments for inclusiveness as strong as one where women, black women or other minorities organize. A private event like this isn't setting anything back nor will it lead to Sweden becoming a society of Amazons.
I can empathize because LGBTQ members of my community created Black and Brown Pride events and if white members of that community take issue with that then they need to address why their community is riddled with racism and why people don't feel included. There isn't an equivalent onus in that type of situation.
I wish that main event wasn't canceled and measures could be taken to ensure women's safety but private events like this, I can understand why a woman would want to feel safe.
Being a gay male certainly doesn't exempt from being a guy but it does give me a certain vantage point to address men with rather than a woman who are already very uncomfortable in a certain situation.
And as someone mentioned so many spaces and events are male oriented and there are never arguments for inclusiveness as strong as one where women, black women or other minorities organize. A private event like this isn't setting anything back nor will it lead to Sweden becoming a society of Amazons.
I can empathize because LGBTQ members of my community created Black and Brown Pride events and if white members of that community take issue with that then they need to address why their community is riddled with racism and why people don't feel included. There isn't an equivalent onus in that type of situation.
I wish that main event wasn't canceled and measures could be taken to ensure women's safety but private events like this, I can understand why a woman would want to feel safe.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
Wait so this guy is saying women can't feel safe cause it isn't a long term solution?
The goal isn't solving the problem and that is ok.
The thing we will get from a measure like this is women who aren't afraid.
We just want women not to be afraid for fucksake!
SkeptiMism
Member
I don't really have a problem with it.
I do wish that there was another way, hiring more security, having less people per square meter etc etc, but that can be pretty expensive. I also wish the government did more to combat these issues with long term education and such. But that's not imminent.
However, I can see why someone doesn't like the idea and I really wish attitudes like this weren't displayed:
But really, there's no need to be so hostile. Yeah I get it, it really sucks that sexual assaults towards women are so common, but someone not liking that you're banning tens of thousands of men because of the actions of few doesn't mean that they're not aware of the problems women face and it doesn't mean that they're against any measures targeting the problem. It also doesn't mean that they care more about their own privilege than about others.
---
Regardless, I'm not sure that's a good argument against the comparisons. Probably the most used comparison in the thread so far has been the Cologne case, and I don't think most of the victims there were immigrants.
Again though, I'll reiterate that I don't have a problem if they wanna have a women only festival, but there have been better arguments against the comparisons.
----
I do wish that there was another way, hiring more security, having less people per square meter etc etc, but that can be pretty expensive. I also wish the government did more to combat these issues with long term education and such. But that's not imminent.
However, I can see why someone doesn't like the idea and I really wish attitudes like this weren't displayed:
.. In a way, this seems very similar to how every time there's a social justice thread about some issue, there come in people who are acting like the people talking about it are clearly outraged no matter how civil people are while discussing the subject. As if people could not question things without being outraged and butthurt.
But really, there's no need to be so hostile. Yeah I get it, it really sucks that sexual assaults towards women are so common, but someone not liking that you're banning tens of thousands of men because of the actions of few doesn't mean that they're not aware of the problems women face and it doesn't mean that they're against any measures targeting the problem. It also doesn't mean that they care more about their own privilege than about others.
---
Does it really apply to all ethnic groups? Honest question. And does it apply also in Europe (and not just in America if it does there)?
Regardless, I'm not sure that's a good argument against the comparisons. Probably the most used comparison in the thread so far has been the Cologne case, and I don't think most of the victims there were immigrants.
This also doesn't seem very convincing. Having only Germans in Cologne would've decreased the chance of sexual assault for women too.
Again though, I'll reiterate that I don't have a problem if they wanna have a women only festival, but there have been better arguments against the comparisons.
----
If you're referring to this..
.. I don't think the person means that this event would be the one to teach that.
The fuck is this? Have you never been to a maiden concert?
Funyarinpa
Member
Can we please stop the "Men offended by this totally don't care about rape culture" argument please?
Maybe when men could understand it's more important to tell other men to keep their dicks in their pants than herp derp muh rights?
Not us individually, but us collectively.
You know, a bit of social pressure. We don't even have to do much, just show that we're not into all that creepy leering business. You know that sexual harrasment is partly showing other men how much of a man you are too, as well as self entitlement. Being a man is taking control, right?
Funyarinpa
Member
And you can't agree that rape is unacceptable unless you agree to the measures taken here as well? Come on. People can be against rape culture and still think this is wrong.
Again, this is the same "why are these Muslims not condemning terrorists" bullshit. The idea that "you shouldn't stand up for your rights, there's bigger issues" is likewise bullshit.
Teaching women they will be raped any time they go to a social situation that has men seems like it's teaching women to be afraid.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
First of you should tell us what intersections Muslims and men have regarding privilege?
Cause if you can't make a case that Muslims and men suffer from the same institutionalized racism then all your argument is a false equivalency.
This isn't about teaching women. It is about making them feel safe.
You can't dictate what tool they should use.
tearsintherain
Member
If the festival allows people in who identity as non gender.... wouldn't that let any man in who just says that? Confused by that.
I think in this instance the organizers were woefully inept. Some places are reporting that when women went up to the bouncers to report cases of sexual assault, they were ignored or asked if they had been drinking too much.
https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2017/07/03/bravalla-festival-rape-shut-down/
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article23106850.ab
Its a bit incredulous that after two years of having rape and assault issues at your festival you don't train your security folks better, and maybe tell them "hey! don't ignore women who ask for help, ok?" There are literally hundreds of other festivals around the world that go on every year with minimal assault and rape cases, unless there is something special about this location its almost certainly an organizational and security issue.
There are likely some behind the scene shenanigans going on as well, the organizers lost $9m last year and its almost certain they lost money this year as well, I wonder if there was severe money mismanagement going on and if shutting down the festival was a way to escape debts.
I'd say the police should investigate but it really sounds like the cops in that area are horrendously incompetent or understaffed, given that they investigated the rapes from last years festival and as far as google knows, made zero arrests.
I think in this instance the organizers were woefully inept. Some places are reporting that when women went up to the bouncers to report cases of sexual assault, they were ignored or asked if they had been drinking too much.
https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2017/07/03/bravalla-festival-rape-shut-down/
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article23106850.ab
Its a bit incredulous that after two years of having rape and assault issues at your festival you don't train your security folks better, and maybe tell them "hey! don't ignore women who ask for help, ok?" There are literally hundreds of other festivals around the world that go on every year with minimal assault and rape cases, unless there is something special about this location its almost certainly an organizational and security issue.
There are likely some behind the scene shenanigans going on as well, the organizers lost $9m last year and its almost certain they lost money this year as well, I wonder if there was severe money mismanagement going on and if shutting down the festival was a way to escape debts.
I'd say the police should investigate but it really sounds like the cops in that area are horrendously incompetent or understaffed, given that they investigated the rapes from last years festival and as far as google knows, made zero arrests.
Stallion Dan
Member
until all men have learned how to behave.
So never? All this is doing is basically "Fuck it, not my problem" and sending those men who assault to another festival. No attempt to do something to actually tackle the problem like hiring more security, better informing, telling bystanders to not ignore what they see etc.
Plus not all women are 'safe' to be around anyway.
So never? All this is doing is basically "Fuck it, not my problem" and sending those men who assault to another festival. No attempt to do something to actually tackle the problem like hiring more security, better informing, telling bystanders to not ignore what they see etc.
Plus not all women are 'safe' to be around anyway.
A Link to the Past
Banned
They can lie, yes, but that's a statistical minority.
Emperor_Uriel
Member
Depends. Are the guards going after guys who are breaking the rules, or guys who seem like they might break the rules?
This is the difference between profiling and policing, between acceptable and unacceptable. The moment anyone, man or woman, does something illegal or against the venue's rules, the guards/cops are 100% justified in going after them and nobody would complain. However, you simply don't have the right to target a person whom you believe might decide to break a rule.
They did all of that, actually.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
You have to be some kind of wack ass dude to really be bothered by this.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
The increased security is because they don't know who the rapists are. If they knew there'd be no security.
Again, you're being selective in your discomfort.