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[Moff]

Loool. Comparing men to Muslims.

Care to explain the exact intersectional discrimination, racism, and islamophobia between men and Muslims?

Based on this deflection I assume what you are saying is it is discrimination, but it's ok because men are not discriminated as much as others in our society. Is that right?
I dont even necessarily disagree, but it IS discrimination based on sex (sexism), right?

 

[Mahadev]

Loool. Comparing men to Muslims.

Care to explain the exact intersectional discrimination, racism, and islamophobia between men and Muslims?

Men don't face islamophobia or racism* so it's A-OK to discriminate against them. What a healthy mentality.

*Well, except muslim or minority men but let's ignore those to continue being unapologetically sexist

It's not fashionable to be racist. That's the difference.

Bingo

 

[Transhuman]

Well before answering I would like both you or RoadHazard to explain what exact institutionalized discriminatory behavior is faced by both Muslim and men

My example was immigrants, none in particular. If all the sexual assaults at the festival were committed by American men, would banning American men from the festival be acceptable in your eyes.

 

[SoCoRoBo]

Loool. Comparing men to Muslims.

Care to explain the exact intersectional discrimination, racism, and islamophobia between men and Muslims?

He doesn't have to though? He's making a perfectly valid point that collective blame isn't necessarily a good or effective tactic. The performative 'smdh so ashamed of my gender' stuff isn't a particularly useful or constructive way of dealing with this problem, given that the overwhelming majority of men would never do something like this and correctly think it's awful behaviour.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

Based on this deflection I assume what you are saying is it is discrimination, but it's ok because men are not discriminated as much as others in our society. Is that right?
I dont even necessarily disagree, but it IS discrimination based on sex (sexism), right?

I'm not going to argue that is isn't discrimination.
But as we have shown several time is this thread it it a tool that is used in certain situations.
The question should be if this discrimination will harmful or not towards men.
And seeing how we have had women only festivals before at zero impact for men, I personally am not worried.

Men don't face islamophobia or racism* so it's A-OK to discriminate against them. What a healthy mentality.

*Well, except muslim or minority men but let's ignore those to continue being unapologetically sexist




Bingo

Yep, this kind of discrimination will have zero impact on men.
You are welcome to prove me wrong.

My example was immigrants, none in particular. If all the sexual assaults at the festival were committed by American men, would banning American men from the festival be acceptable in your eyes.

Well the same stands for immigrants. lease explain how immigrants and men face similar challanges.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

He doesn't have to though? He's making a perfectly valid point that collective blame isn't necessarily a good or effective tactic. The performative 'smdh so ashamed of my gender' stuff isn't a particularly useful or constructive way of dealing with this problem, given that the overwhelming majority of men would never do something like this and correctly think it's awful behaviour.

Wel, yeah. He does. And he should.
If you are trying to make a point regarding how two groups should be interchangeable with each other it would strengthen the point by pointing to similarities.
Since neither you or he (or anyone fucking else in this thread for that matter) can prove those similarities I'm gonna call BS.

 

[Moff]

I'm not going to argue that is isn't discrimination.
But as we have shown several time is this thread it it a tool that is used in certain situations.
The question should be if this discrimination will harmful or not towards men.
And seeing how we have had women only festivals before at zero impact for men, I personally am not worried.

As I said, I don't necessarily disagree, it might be a necessary evil, such things exist. I just want to avoid hypocrisy when we talk about discrimination and sexism.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

As I said, I don't necessarily disagree, it might be a necessary evil, such things exist. I just want to avoid hypocrisy when we talk about discrimination and sexism.

Tbh, I value women feeling safe then a supposed hypocrisy that doesn't really have any effect on the real world.

 

[Mahadev]

Yep, this kind of discrimination will have zero impact on men.
You are welcome to prove me wrong.

No, you prove your outrageous claim that discrimination doesn't affect people. What the hell am I reading? Jesus Christ.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

No, you prove your outrageous claim that discrimination doesn't affect people. What the hell am I reading? Jesus Christ.

We have had women only festivals for 40 odd years.
Please explain how this has impacted men?
I'll wait.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I am not a fan of how this festival is being framed. The whole "until all men behave" comes of very hostile, although considering the circumstances I can't be all that bothered about it.

Technically it is discrimination. But we accept some forms of that, while we don't accept others, mostly when it is used to actively hurt a group. Maybe it is hypocrisy, but the issue also isn't that black and white.

I mean, technically I am being discriminated against for not getting the senior discount at a museum, because they give a benefit to someone based on age. But we all agree there are some underlying reasons there why we accept such differences.

 

[Mahadev]

We have had women only festivals for 40 odd years.
Please explain how this has impacted men?
I'll wait.

And we had men only clubs for hundreds of years. And whites only water fountains for dozens. I assume you support those too, aren't you?

Not to mention that this didn't start as a women only festival, the organizers wanted to make it one because they indiscriminately accused men of "not behaving" which in my book that kind of generalization is extremely obnoxious and sexist.

 

[pompidu]

And we had men only clubs for hundreds of years. And whites only water fountains for dozens. I assume you support those too, aren't you?

We get what you're saying, but what is happening here, with the context of why they're doing it, it is not a big deal to have a women's only event. It's for a concern of safety.

 

[excelsiorlef]

No, you prove your outrageous claim that discrimination doesn't affect people. What the hell am I reading? Jesus Christ.

A woman's music festival doesn't hurt anyone.

 

[Mahadev]

We get what you're saying, but what is happening here, with the context of why they're doing it, it is not a big deal to have a women's only event. It's for a concern of safety.

Funny, that the exact same argument Trumpers use against Muslims. "For our safety..."

A woman's music festival doesn't hurt anyone.

Neither a men only club.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

And we had men only clubs for hundreds of years. And whites only water fountains for dozens. I assume you support those too, aren't you?

Not to mention that this didn't start as a women only festival, the organizers wanted to make it one because they indiscriminately accused men of not behaving.

Indeed they did. Those are examples of how it hurt a marginalized group.
We have safe housing, help lines for women, and safe spaces for minorities.
Those are examples of helping a marginalized group with segregation as a tool.
Understand the difference?

If you read the thread you would have been informed about the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival.
It is a TERF festival so fuck them tbh.
But it shows that we have had a women only festival for over 40 years and the only people hurt by it are women who weren't born women.

 

[Mahadev]

Indeed they did. Those are examples of how it hurt a marginalized group.
We have safe housing, help lines for women, and safe spaces for minorities.
Those are examples of helping a marginalized group with segregation as a tool.
Understand the difference?

If you read the thread you would have been informed about the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival.
It is a TERF festival so fuck them tbh.
But it shows that we have had a women only festival for over 40 years and the only people hurt by it are women who weren't born women.

Are you seriously comparing penalizing all men for the actions of very few by banning them from festivals with women's shelters? OK I'm done, I've reached my limit for today again.

 

[superbeau]

Funny, that the exact same argument Trumpers use against Muslims. "For our safety..."

3 days later, the hot takes are still just as spicy

 

[Simplet]

Indeed they did. Those are examples of how it hurt a marginalized group.
We have safe housing, help lines for women, and safe spaces for minorities.
Those are examples of helping a marginalized group with segregation as a tool.
Understand the difference?

If you read the thread you would have been informed about the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival.
It is a TERF festival so fuck them tbh.
But it shows that we have had a women only festival for over 40 years and the only people hurt by it are women who weren't born women.

Well, that's some strange logic. How are transgender women hurt by this festival but men not? They're all barred from entering all the same.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Are you seriously comparing penalizing all men for the actions of very few by banning them from festivals with women's shelters? OK I'm done, I've reached my limit for today again.

I mean you compared the potential festival to white only water fountains so I wouldn't be getting all sanctimonious about analogies.

Well, that's some strange logic. How are transgender women hurt by this festival but men not? They're all barred from entering all the same.

Because it was saying that trans women aren't women. Which is one of the key attacks in the oppression of trans women.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

Are you seriously comparing penalizing all men for the actions of very few by banning them from festivals with women's shelters? OK I'm done, I've reached my limit for today again.

I'm arguing that segregation and discrimination are normal tool that we as a society use.
If used against an oppresed minority it is bad.
If used BY a oppressed group it has it's uses.



Listen mate. You obviously didn't bother reading the thread cause you would se all you arguments countered.
Please inform yourself and don't just parrot your hot take.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

Well, that's some strange logic. How are transgender women hurt by this festival but men not? They're all barred from entering all the same.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Womyn's_Music_Festival#Controversy_about_transgender_people

You can read all about it.

 

[Simplet]

Because it was saying that trans women aren't women. Which is one of the key attacks in the oppression of trans women.

So now we care about how an entire group is represented? Because this swedish festival is painting all men as predators.

I guess you're just going to answer that men can take it. I will then call that a bullshit excuse and so on so forth...

 

[Darth Ghandi]

So now we care about how an entire group is represented? Because this swedish festival is painting all men as predators.

I guess you're just going to answer that men can take it. I will then call that a bullshit excuse and so on so forth...

How the fuck are men and trans women a equal group that can totally be compared in regards to discrimination?

 

[excelsiorlef]

So now we care about how an entire group is represented? Because this swedish festival is painting all men as predators.

I guess you're just going to answer that men can take it. I will then call that a bullshit excuse and so on so forth...

Mich Fest literally said all trans women aren't women


This thing nor Mich Fest says/said all men are rapists.


You know given the level of assaults and rapes against women that triggered this idea it takes a certain level of gumption to try and paint men as the victims here.

Yet here we are.


On the topic of women only spaces. We've also women centres at universities for decades and men aren't hurt by it.

 

[pompidu]

Funny, that the exact same argument Trumpers use against Muslims. "For our safety..."




Neither a men only club.

Context is important, Muslims aren't dangerous, infact white males are most dangerous as they commit the most crimes and murders. In this case it is in the best interest of protecting the welfare of these women when there is a trend of assault happening at these concerts.

 

[RoadHazard]

We get what you're saying, but what is happening here, with the context of why they're doing it, it is not a big deal to have a women's only event. It's for a concern of safety.

You're saying that it's ok to ban everyone from group X because a small number of members of said group don't behave. I don't agree with that, just like I don't agree with banning all Muslims from attending concerts or sporting events because a few in that group might want to commit a massacre.

 

[RoadHazard]

Context is important, Muslims aren't dangerous, infact white males are most dangerous as they commit the most crimes and murders. In this case it is in the best interest of protecting the welfare of these women when there is a trend of assault happening at these concerts.

Context is important, men aren't dangerous, infact Muslims are most dangerous as they commit the most terrorist attacks. In this case it is in the best interest of protecting the welfare of these non-Muslims when there is a trend of terrorism happening at these concerts.

You say "males are dangerous" because a tiny minority of them are, I say "Muslims are dangerous" because a tiny minority of them are. Cool? No? Then stop it. I'm a white male, and I'm not fucking dangerous, and I won't accept being labeled as such based on nothing but the bad behavior of others who happen to share my gender.

 

[PerkeyMan]

Then stop it. I'm a white male, and I'm not fucking dangerous, and I won't accept being labeled as such based on nothing but the bad behavior of others who happen to share my gender.

Uff, the cringe of embarrassment when an ignorant white male - top of the societys 'foodchain' - is crying because his feelings are hurt being generelized. You are pathetic.

 

[Krauser Kat]

Context is important, men aren't dangerous, infact Muslims are most dangerous as they commit the most terrorist attacks. In this case it is in the best interest of protecting the welfare of these non-Muslims when there is a trend of terrorism happening at these concerts.

You say "males are dangerous" because a tiny minority of them are, I say "Muslims are dangerous" because a tiny minority of them are. Cool? No? Then stop it. I'm a white male, and I'm not fucking dangerous, and I won't accept being labeled as such based on nothing but the bad behavior of others who happen to share my gender.

"I am a non dangerous white male. I care more about being generalized than women being sexually assaulted". Most women are always on guard when in public, using transportation. This is their life for many many of them. The sooner you realize there are reasons women act this way and the start thinking and talking in ways that can minimize, the sooner these generalizations go away.

Also no one called you a rapist, or a predator. The facts are, it is more dangerous to be a women in the world right now. They have much higher chances of being assaulted and raped and murdered by men. This is a problem men have to fix with the help of women but you are too fucking belligerent about being labeled "more dangerous" then the reason you (we) are being labeled in the first place.

 

[Transhuman]

This is a problem men have to fix with the help of women but you are too fucking belligerent about being labeled "more dangerous" then the reason you (we) are being labeled in the first place.

"If you're not comfortable with open gender discrimination, then clearly you don't care about the reducing of sexual violence towards women"

 

[Moff]

"The facts are, it is more dangerous to be a women in the world right now. They have much higher chances of being assaulted and raped and murdered by men.

there are more women murdered than men? do you have numbers to back that up?

 

[Scrooged]

"I am a non dangerous white male. I care more about being generalized than women being sexually assaulted". Most women are always on guard when in public, using transportation. This is their life for many many of them. The sooner you realize there are reasons women act this way and the start thinking and talking in ways that can minimize, the sooner these generalizations go away.

Also no one called you a rapist, or a predator. The facts are, it is more dangerous to be a women in the world right now. They have much higher chances of being assaulted and raped and murdered by men. This is a problem men have to fix with the help of women but you are too fucking belligerent about being labeled "more dangerous" then the reason you (we) are being labeled in the first place.

You are demonstrably wrong about the rates of assault and murder. Men far outnumber women in those categories, at least in the US.

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf

Page 9

I'm not aware of the rates in Sweden, but I have a hard time believing the stats are worse for women.

 

[Krauser Kat]

"If you're not comfortable with open gender discrimination, then clearly you don't care about the reducing of sexual violence towards women"

If this is the case for you why are banging on a drum about this being "discrimination" and not lamenting the fact about 1.3% of all the women at the festival were sexually assaulted during it.

You have only come into this thread bitching about mens rights and being discriminated against without no regard to words to why its happening in first place. Women were sexually assaulted in the dozens at the fesitval. To you the real story is #notallmen. Thanks for your empathy the other 50% of the world laments your man tears.

20,300 sex offences reported to the police (2016)
1,160 conviction decisions in respect of sex offences (2015)
97 per cent of those suspected of sex offences are men (2016)
15 per cent of sex offences take place in the home of the victim or perpetrator (2014)
11 per cent = person-based clearance rate for rape (2016)
(https://www.bra.se/bra-in-english/home/crime-and-statistics/rape-and-sex-offences.html)

there are more women murdered than men? do you have numbers to back that up?

You are demonstrably wrong about the rates of assault and murder. Men far outnumber women in those categories, at least in the US.

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf

Page 9

I'm not aware of the rates in Sweden, but I have a hard time believing the stats are worse for women.

Sorry for the miscommunication. I should clarify i meant women are less likely to be killed by women then men.

 

[PerkeyMan]

Edit: Krauser explained it much better.

 

[Moff]

Sorry for the miscommunication. I should clarify i meant women are less likely to be killed by women then men.

the point you based your argument was, that it's more dangerous to be a woman in the world right now. I don't see how the sex of the killer matters in that question.

 

[Transhuman]

If this is the case for you why are banging on a drum about this being "discrimination" and not lamenting the fact about 1.3% of all the women at the festival were sexually assaulted during it.

Would love a source on that.

You have only come into this thread bitching about mens rights and being discriminated against without no regard to words to why its happening in first place. Women were sexually assaulted in the dozens at the fesitval. To you the real story is #notallmen. Thanks for your empathy the other 50% of the world laments your man tears.

I care about the cause of making festivals safer for women. I don't think it should involve discrimination. You are a lunatic.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

I care about the cause of making festivals safer for women. I don't think it should involve discrimination. You are a lunatic.

We have explained several times during the thread the discriminations is a useful tool.
The problem arises if it is used against a marginalized group.

 

[DoctorFling]

Given how many men had a shit-fit about a few women only screenings of a movie I wholeheartedly endorse this.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

It's annoying to see people who clearly don't give a fuck about racism either trying to compare a women-only festival to racial discrimination.

No one will take you seriously except other similarly clueless men.

 

[reckless]

We have explained several times during the thread the discriminations is a useful tool.
The problem arises if it is used against a marginalized group.

Even if everyone agreed thats the only time its a problem which they don't. Surprisingly enough the group of 'men' is comprised of a bunch of different groups including marginalized groups so...

 

[Nerazar]

It's annoying to see people who clearly don't give a fuck about racism either trying to compare a women-only festival to racial discrimination.

No one will take you seriously except other similarly clueless men.

The woman-only festival is not the issue. It's the sexist remarks from the woman organizing the event. Her arguments are hideous and she would have been better served with just organizing it without making it about collective punishment. If she would have just framed it as an event offering a safe space for women, noone would have to speak up.

But no, instead, she proclaims that all boys are bad. Which is sexist. Very much so. Just exchange "men" with any other group of people in her explanation and you see the hatred behind it.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

Even if everyone agreed thats the only time its a problem which they don't. Surprisingly enough the group of 'men' is comprised of a bunch of different groups including marginalized groups so...

Nah, the only ones who don't agree are privileged men who can't stand not to be the focus of anything.
Very good. The group men can be comprised of marginalized groups.
And so can women.

But I'm not sure what your point is.

The woman-only festival is not the issue. It's the sexist remarks from the woman organizing the event. Her arguments are hideous and she would have been better served with just organizing it without making it about collective punishment. If she would have just framed it as an event offering a safe space for women, noone would have to speak up.

But no, instead, she proclaims that all boys are bad. Which is sexist. Very much so. Just exchange "men" with any other group of people in her explanation and you see the hatred behind it.

Indeed. Fuck women for saying something that isn't nice and always remember to cosy up to the men.
But please explain how her harsh words are sexist, and I haven't seen anything about her saying says all boys are bad.

And again you end with a false equivalency trying to equate men with "other groups".

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

If she would have just framed it as an event offering a safe space for women, noone would have to speak up.

Now you know that's not true. And substituting another group in removes all context in place for the actual group, which is what makes that ploy useless.

 

[Nerazar]

Nah, the only ones who don't agree are privileged men who can't stand not to be the focus of anything.
Very good. The group men can be comprised of marginalized groups.
And so can women.

But I'm not sure what your point is.

I don't even see the point you want to make. So much arrogance in so little words. So toxic as well, it's as if you don't really want to have a conversation. You want to show off your supremacy, is that it? Feeling good about your "morals"?

Take a good look at what you write. "Discrimination is a tool" - that's something someone in totalitarian regimes or even 100 years ago in the US would have said verbatim. About women or people of color or any minority. Your mindset is not different from those you superficially want to oppose. And with the same mindset, you'll always get the same results.

 

[Simplet]

It's annoying to see people who clearly don't give a fuck about racism either trying to compare a women-only festival to racial discrimination.

No one will take you seriously except other similarly clueless men.

Great example of circular logic here:

You're not enthusiastic about bold-faced gender discrimination as a tool to protect women against sexual assault -> You are obviously sexist -> If you are sexist, it stands to reason that you also must be a racist -> Since you're a racist, you do not give a fuck about minorities -> Yet you still pretend to care about minorities being discriminated against -> You're a hypocrite.

Well done Sherlock.

 

[reckless]

Nah, the only ones who don't agree are privileged men who can't stand not to be the focus of anything.
Very good. The group men can be comprised of marginalized groups.
And so can women.

But I'm not sure what your point is.

Discrimination is bad if it effects marginalized groups -> Men contain plenty of marginalized groups and are going to be effected and be discriminated against -> Somehow this is good according to you...

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Great example of circular logic here:

You're not enthusiastic about bold-faced gender discrimination as a tool to protect women against sexual assault -> You are obviously sexist -> If you are sexist, it stands to reason that you also must be a racist -> Since you're a racist, you're do not give a fuck about minorities -> Yet you still pretend to care about minorities being discriminated against -> You're a hypocrite.

Well done Sherlock.

Lol

I'm talking about specific posters with well known tendencies but if you felt that applied to you too then so be it.

 

[Simplet]

Lol

I'm talking about specific posters with well known tendencies but if you felt that applied to you too then so be it.

How would I think that applied to me, I literally haven't posted in this thread since page 4, could you be a little less nonsensical with your inuendos?

And of course, the "known posters" with their "tendencies" that you won't name, because we all know who they are.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

I don't even see the point you want to make. So much arrogance in so little words. So toxic as well, it's as if you don't really want to have a conversation. You want to show off your supremacy, is that it? Feeling good about your "morals"?

Take a good look at what you write. "Discrimination is a tool" - that's something someone in totalitarian regimes or even 100 years ago in the US would have said verbatim. About women or people of color or any minority. Your mindset is not different from those you superficially want to oppose. And with the same mindset, you'll always get the same results.

Not my fault your side of the argument doesn't hold water and you can't se it cause of your privilege.

Now again, comparing and substituting groups for one and other will remove all the context behind the situation.
With out context you are left with a vacuum and things often don't happen in a vacuum.
You are just ignoring the context and running straight to "totalitarian regimes".
For someone so scared of "totalitarian regimes" you have yet to explain how the womens festival in Michigan has impacted males in any significant way.
So you are just making imaginary scenarios and not seeing the value in letting women hold their own festival.

Discrimination is bad if it effects marginalized groups -> Men contain plenty of marginalized groups and are going to be effected and be discriminated against -> Somehow this is good according to you...

Wait, what? Are you saying that all marginalized groups face the same challenges? Is the experience of being a women similar to being a PoC or gay?
You understand that different groups have intersecting privileges and institutionalized discrimination.
The thing that PoC in Sweden talk about among our selves aren't the same subjects women would discuss.
So why would I as a brown man want to go to a women festival?