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[Bobby Roberts]

I just draw the line at trying to scuttle a show that isn't even out yet.

of all the lines to draw, why are you drawing a line there?

Why is it you're valuing the speculated best-case-scenario potential of a television show over every other aspect being brought up?

Why is that the line for you? What is it about "scuttling a show that isn't out yet" that is more offensive to you as a worst case scenario than the opposing side's worst-case, which is yet another piece of popular entertainment that trades on (and feeds back into) a national habit of mollifying, coddling, and humanizing people whose entire goal was to utterly dehumanize others, not only for financial gain, but because it made them feel good to do so.

I'm not engaging with the criticism because again, like I said in my first post, "No one is going to be on the otherside of the argument the author is making there"

Then to be as blunt as possible what the fuck are you wasting everyone's time for.

Just be on your goddamn way then. Nobody needs to hear you speak even tangentially on a subject you've admitted you have no interest in pursuing honestly.

If you don't want to be on the other side of the argument then don't be there.

 

[Herr Schwarz]

Can you please summarize it for me then? Just the main points and what their reasoning is.

From the OT text? Ok, the author poo poo's HBO's decision making as a network to announce now with barely any information.

Author then went to characterize the history of how confederate history in america, despite being fucking evil, is still lauded in a lot of states?

Then went in on how contemporary media is still failing at accurate representation of confederate america still painting that turd in gold.

then it went on to talk about how the writers did rape scenes bad in Game of Thrones, ergo will be bad at writing a future sci fi dystopia where the confederates had won the war.

 

[East Lake]

There's already a sci fi version of the Underground Railroad where it's an actual Railroad being adapted by Barry Jenkins for a TV series for Amazon.

As I said on the last page that's partly why this article isn't convincing.

As TNC says

African Americans do not need science-fiction, or really any fiction, to tell them that that “history is still with us.” It’s right outside our door.

On those grounds Amazon's series is also "not needed." If we're going to bring up other analogous works we'd have to expand it to says movies shouldn't have a similar premise, which is also a kind of absurd argument if you think about it outside this context. Do I need another Spiderman, do I need 12 Years a Slave?

 

[lightskintwin]

As I said on the last page that's partly why this article isn't convincing.

As TNC says

On those grounds Amazon's series is also "not needed." If we're going to bring up other analogous works we'd have to expand it to says movies shouldn't have a similar premise, which is also a kind of absurd argument if you think about it outside this context. Do I need another Spiderman, do I need 12 Years a Slave?

Oh ok. I get you.

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

of all the lines to draw, why are you drawing a line there?

Why is it you're valuing the speculated best-case-scenario potential of a television show over every other aspect being brought up?

Why is that the line for you? What is it about "scuttling a show that isn't out yet" that is more offensive to you as a worst case scenario than the opposing side's worst-case, which is yet another piece of popular entertainment that trades on (and feeds back into) a national habit of mollifying, coddling, and humanizing people whose entire goal was to utterly dehumanize others, not only for financial gain, but because it made them feel good to do so.



Then to be as blunt as possible what the fuck are you wasting everyone's time for.

Just be on your goddamn way then. Nobody needs to hear you speak even tangentially on a subject you've admitted you have no interest in pursuing honestly.

If you don't want to be on the other side of the argument then don't be there.

 

[Herr Schwarz]

of all the lines to draw, why are you drawing a line there?

Why is it you're valuing the speculated best-case-scenario potential of a television show over every other aspect being brought up?

Why is that the line for you? What is it about "scuttling a show that isn't out yet" that is more offensive to you as a worst case scenario than the opposing side's worst-case, which is yet another piece of popular entertainment that trades on (and feeds back into) a national habit of mollifying, coddling, and humanizing people whose entire goal was to utterly dehumanize others, not only for financial gain, but because it made them feel good to do so.

Because I'd rather creatives try and make a sincere attempt at something, than giving up forever based on "other works in the past sucked, ergo this will suck"

Though if it turns out how you say it does, then yeah it'll get shat on and it'll sink. But if it's a step in the right direction, empowers black people, gives more black actors a chance at hollywood and representation etc, then other creatives will build on that template of success and create better works of media. it's called an iterative process, yeah?

how horrible, let's just give up instead.

 

[Veelk]

From the OT text? Ok, the author poo poo's HBO's decision making as a network to announce now with barely any information.

Author then went to characterize the history of how confederate history in america, despite being fucking evil, is still lauded in a lot of states?

Then went in on how contemporary media is still failing at accurate representation of confederate america still painting that turd in gold.

then it went on to talk about how the writers did rape scenes bad in Game of Thrones, ergo will be bad at writing a future sci fi dystopia where the confederates had won the war.

....Okay, I'm gonna go ahead and suggest you go back and reread it then.

You have some (not all) of the general ideas, but it seems you've missed the connective tissue of his argument of how all that comes together to make this show a bad idea.

There is a bad pattern to people who object to these kinds of articles/ideas not actually understanding the arguments being presented.

 

[sgjackson]

then it went on to talk about how the writers did rape scenes bad in Game of Thrones, ergo will be bad at writing a future sci fi dystopia where the confederates had won the war.

there are two things wrong with this statement
1. coates did not have a problem with the existence of rape in got, but the details of its depiction. this is far from unique critical analysis.
2. he does not say they will be bad at their jobs due to this, but asserts that they might lack the tact to handle this concept well, using the prevalence of rape among slaves to frame this against benioff and weiss's past history

 

[akira28]

not feelin it, nah
i'm not going to worry about "the creatives" 'feeling constrained' because they don't and they won't.

but the critical shade tree might grow tall enough to block out the sun. trade carefully, company of heroes.

 

[lightskintwin]

....Okay, I'm gonna go ahead and suggest you go back and reread it then.

You have some (not all) of the general ideas, but it seems you've missed the connective tissue of his argument of how all that connects to make this show a bad idea.

LOL @ giving him a pop quiz and then grading his post.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

But if it's a step in the right direction, empowers black people, gives more black actors a chance at hollywood and representation etc, then then other creatives will build on that template of success and create better works of media. it's called an iterative processes, yeah?

how horrible, let's just give up instead.

Not every idea is as worthwhile as every other idea. Some ideas are bad ones. Some people are bad at executing even good ideas. This is a process that happens all the time in a multitude of creative pursuits, and through the course of developing/analyzing these ideas, some of them are abandoned.

If you give a shit about black representation and the empowerment of black people why are you fighting against the black voices such as Mr. Coates', trying to explain to you as rationally and calmly as possible why they don't fucking want this?

 

[Sunster]

lol people itt will die defending this show. this is it, the hbo drama, confederate. this is where i make my final stand.

 

[LotusHD]

lol people itt will die defending this show. this is it, the hbo drama, confederate. this is where i make my final stand.

Of all the shows to cape for

 

[Herr Schwarz]

Not every idea is as worthwhile as every other idea. Some ideas are bad ones. Some people are bad at executing even good ideas. This is a process that happens all the time in a multitude of creative pursuits, and through the course of developing/analyzing these ideas, some of them are abandoned.

If you give a shit about black representation and the empowerment of black people why are you fighting against the black voices such as Mr. Coates', trying to explain to you as rationally and calmly as possible why they don't fucking want this?

Doesn't really matter what the idea is. You could have an initial premise of a walking talking dog turd, yeah it's a bad idea, but if the script is tight and right, it will work.

And you're right about development, and like I said before, you'd be able to gauge if it's a good idea when you have a script or a pilot to judge.

I'm sorry I didn't know Mr. Coates' was the president of all black people. You don't have to be black to see the dirty history of america the glorification of the confederacy and modern day racism as fucking horrible.

I mean in the show, they could have the confederate people all looking like baron harkonen all fucked up and shit after some bad gene splicing and mcdonalds. Show me the pilot!

 

[Veelk]

I mean in the show, they could have the confederate people all looking like baron harkonen all fucked up and shit after some bad gene splicing and mcdonalds. Show me the pilot!

So, just to be clear, as long as the show presents the confederacy as "da bad guyz", all is forgiven in your mind?

If you give a shit about black representation and the empowerment of black people why are you fighting against the black voices such as Mr. Coates', trying to explain to you as rationally and calmly as possible why they don't fucking want this?

Whats the racial equivalent of mansplaining?

Black person: "This show is racially problematic?"
White person: "Well, actually..."

 

[lightskintwin]

So, just to be clear, as long as the show presents the confederacy as "da bad guyz", all is forgiven in your mind?

I think his point is, regardless of the premise, the only thing that will matter is it's execution into the final product for it to be fairly judged, because there have been premises that sounded terrible in print but turned out to be good due to it's execution.

 

[Herr Schwarz]

So, just to be clear, as long as the show presents the confederacy as "da bad guyz", all is forgiven in your mind?

I mean if the shows core message is confederacy are disgusting people that need to be countered and shat on with a unified front of all reasonable people, whilst creating a decent sci fi atmospheric dystopia and empowering black people like jon connor but this time the machine is the confederacy. Then it could be a good idea. It depends on the script like I said.

I don't know what you mean about all being forgiven though.

Edit: I'm not going through peoples re-edited posts to re-reply to their re-edits.

 

[Veelk]

I think his point is, regardless of the premise, the only thing that will matter is it's execution into the final product for it to be fairly judged, because there have been premises that sounded terrible in print but turned out to be good due to it's execution.

I get that. I'm merely questioning his standards of what constitutes a 'good' execution of this supposedly good idea.

Also, generally speaking, while I can agree that seemingly bad ideas can be executed well, usually 'bad' refers to something being weird or atleast unconventional enough that it won't have mass appeal.

The idea of an alternative history where the confederacy won isn't bad in that sense, it's bad in that it has racial problems that aren't going to be avoided no matter how good the actual story is.

I mean if the shows core message is confederacy are disgusting people that need to be countered and shat on with a unified front of all reasonable people, whilst creating a decent sci fi atmospheric dystopia and empowering black people like jon connor but this time the machine is the confederacy. Then it could be a good idea. It depends on the script like I said.

So, basically, to answer the question....yes, you are.

Which I think is the real problem.

 

[A.J.]

So, just to be clear, as long as the show presents the confederacy as "da bad guyz", all is forgiven in your mind?



Whats the racial equivalent of mansplaining?

Black person: "This show is racially problematic?"
White person: "Well, actually..."

Whitesplaining

 

[Sunster]

So, just to be clear, as long as the show presents the confederacy as "da bad guyz", all is forgiven in your mind?



Whats the racial equivalent of mansplaining?

Black person: "This show is racially problematic?"
White person: "Well, actually..."

it's called whitesplaining here are some pics of it in action.

 

[Herr Schwarz]

You called us intellectually dishonest PC thugs and offered no actual points or arguments.

People seem to have got a bit bent out of shape by my useage of PC Thugs. By PC Thugs I mean the kind of people that shit on movies like Cloud Atlas using the argument of "yellow face" to justify their outrage.

 

[lightskintwin]

I get that. I'm merely questioning his standards of what constitutes a 'good' execution of this supposedly good idea.

Also, generally speaking, while I can agree that seemingly bad ideas can be executed well, usually 'bad' refers to something being weird or atleast unconventional enough that it won't have mass appeal.

The idea of an alternative history where the confederacy won isn't bad in that sense, it's bad in that it has racial problems that aren't going to be avoided no matter how good the actual story is.

So what if it's bad if it has racial problems would be my answer? It will rightly be criticized on that. The majority of media gets something wrong

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Doesn't really matter what the idea is

Yes. It does.

 

[The Kree]

PC thugs. LOL

Man, these guys are good at inventing new dogwhistles on the fly.

 

[Angelus Errare]

I just don't really see how the confederacy winning and slavery existing in 2017 will end up empowering black folks. I guess it'll be empowering in that "It could always be worse" sense. But then I'd argue that's not empowerment but a really sly way of saying "be thankful."

 

[dlauv]

The show promises to be exploitative and a patronizingly "could have" history that serves as a reminder of what's still being felt, and in some places glorified, today. Why this is unnecessary.

This article is about why it's a distasteful premise for a show, and why HBO's "Wait and See" demand has disagreeable subtext in that it deems to keep critics silenced.

It's not saying this show will be bad, or that it should be shut down, but it's saying the outrage surrounding the premise is understandable in very reasonable terms. Guilty until proven innocent at this point.

Obviously people on the other side of the pond aren't going care, but non-black liberals and moderates might.

 

[lightskintwin]

Yes. It does.

Yeah it definitely does. The NBC TV sitcom "Mail Order Bride" was canceled before it even started after backlash. Although the premise which was loosely based on the life of the show's writer and producer did sound like it could've been funny.

 

[Tonedeff]

Coates makes some damn good points as usual.


Nigga'll still be there day one if HBO has the balls to actually follow through.

 

[brianmcdoogle]

PC thugs. LOL

Man, these guys are good at inventing new dogwhistles on the fly.

"You black and white cookie cutter PC thug, you're just like the rest of these dudes safe moist as dudes." via this memorable thread.

 

[Veelk]

So what if it's bad if it has racial problems would be my answer? It will rightly be criticized on that. The majority of media gets something wrong

Well, that's whats happening here. Ta-Nehisi Coates is criticizing it for it's racial problems.

The issue is people's obtuseness toward understanding what those racial problems even are.

Like, okay, lets say that you are genuinely curious towards seeing the GoT people tackle this premise. Okay, that on it's own is fine. Really, it is. You just want to see a good story and that's okay.

BUT!

There are issues that plague the very conceptual premise of this idea alone that are well outlined in the article. They're not problems that can be solved away even if this is the best show HBO ever produces, because they're inherent in racial bias' within our culture that we live in now. The idea itself is inherent with it. It's what it's very DNA is built out of.

My point is this:

That if you just want to see a good show, that's cool, but in denying these issues surrounding the very inception of this show are racially problematic, you're engendering and even participating in the very idea of racial bias that you nominally hope the show will fight against by showing those dang dirty confederates for the horrible people they are.

You can't fight against the real problems of racism if you're going to try to silence black people talking about the racial issues that allow a show like this to exist in the first place.

 

[akira28]

I just don't really see how the confederacy winning and slavery existing in 2017 will end up empowering black folks. I guess it'll be empowering in that "It could always be worse" sense. But then I'd argue that's not empowerment but a really sly way of saying "be thankful."

be thankful for the paying job as slave extra #72, 3 months out of the year. the real job creators

 

[Herr Schwarz]

Coates makes some damn good points as usual.


Nigga'll still be there day one if HBO has the balls to actually follow through.

Yeah of course he will, everyone will, it's HBO. Though I thought it was going to be Sci Fi so my interest died a little bit.

 

[Yaphett Kotto]

First off, amazing article as always Atlantic that shows why this show is pointless and disingenuous as fuck.

Two, I didn't know about all what happened with the Haitian Revolution and now I hope someone does a "what if" series where the Haitian Revolution spreads to the rest of the Americas.

 

[lightskintwin]

Well, that's whats happening here. Ta-Nehisi Coates is criticizing it for it's racial problems.

The issue is people's obtuseness toward understanding what those racial problems even are.

Like, okay, lets say that you are genuinely curious towards seeing the GoT people tackle this premise. Okay, that on it's own is fine. Really, it is. You just want to see a good story and that's okay.

BUT!

There are issues that plague the very conceptual premise of this idea alone that are well outlined in the article. They're not problems that can be solved away even if this is the best show HBO ever produces, because they're inherent in racial bias' within our culture that we live in now. The idea itself is inherent with it. It's what it's very DNA is built out of.

My point is this:

That if you just want to see a good show, that's cool, but in denying these issues surrounding the very inception of this show are racially problematic, you're engendering the very idea of racial bias that you nominally hope the show will fight against by showing those dang dirty confederates for the horrible people they are.

I get all that and can agree to most of it and at the end of the day, it's just a show on one channel. I believe a lot of ya'll are giving this show more power and attention than it should be given.

 

[dlauv]

I get all that and can agree to most of it and at the end of the day, it's just a show on one channel. I believe a lot of ya'll are giving this show more power and attention than it should be given.

It's less about the show's power itself, and more about the power of those dismissing dissent as "unreasonable." It's also about sharing black experience, it seems.

 

[Brazil]

Preach. Great write-up by him, as always.

 

[Tonedeff]

Yeah of course he will, everyone will, it's HBO. Though I thought it was going to be Sci Fi so my interest died a little bit.

I was referring to myself actually, though you are right

 

[Jmanunknown]

lol people itt will die defending this show. this is it, the hbo drama, confederate. this is where i make my final stand.

People are still pulling this same bs with the many confederate flags especially the well known confederate battle flag, the confederacy, and the legacy it left behind. So it should not be a surprise that people would cape for a show where the traitors/slavers actually won.

 

[PhoncipleBone]

it's called whitesplaining here are some pics of it in action.

The Arthur one got me.

 

[lightskintwin]

It's less about the show's power itself, and more about the power of those dismissing dissent as "unreasonable."

There are far more voices against the show existing, than those saying critiquing a show without seeing anything is "unreasonable".

 

[BlazinSkatinAxel]

I just don't really see how the confederacy winning and slavery existing in 2017 will end up empowering black folks. I guess it'll be empowering in that "It could always be worse" sense. But then I'd argue that's not empowerment but a really sly way of saying "be thankful."

Mentally, the Confederates won since in 2017 there is still racism.

 

[lightskintwin]

Mentally, the Confederates won since in 2017 there is still racism.

Confederacy wasn't fighting over racism, but slavery, the Union still believed in White supremacy.

 

[exmachina64]

People seem to have got a bit bent out of shape by my useage of PC Thugs. By PC Thugs I mean the kind of people that shit on movies like Cloud Atlas using the argument of "yellow face" to justify their outrage.

Hi, I'm a PC thug. Yellowface isn't acceptable.

 

[Sunster]

People are still pulling this same bs with the many confederate flags especially the well known confederate battle flag, the confederacy, and the legacy it left behind. So it should not be a surprise that people would cape for a show where the traitors/slavers actually won.

and they pretty much did win. they got to keep all their power and lynching, terrorizing and withholding the rights of black people for another century. and be enshrined as American heroes forevermore. but now HBO wants to play pretend and tell us "but what if they really won?" nope. I'm good.

 

[lightskintwin]

Hi, I'm a PC thug. Yellowface isn't acceptable.

The context changes in Cloud Atlas, as actors of all races were playing different races as it fit within a theme of the movie. The problem with Cloud Atlas wasn't the idea of Yellow face but the execution of it. It looked fucking terrible and made the Asian incarnations of the actors look like aliens.

 

[Herr Schwarz]

Yep that's exactly what I mean about pc thuggery re cloud atlas.

And you can bet if tidbits about race dropped about cloud atlas before it came out (pretend the book didn't exist) the movie would of got shat on in a similar way.

 

[Sunster]

Yep that's exactly what I mean about pc thuggery re cloud atlas.

And you can bet if tidbits about race dropped about cloud atlas before it came out (pretend the book didn't exist) the movie would of got shat on in a similar way.

I'd say it sounds stupid. because it does and it was stupid. but the complete fantasy cloud atlas is not a racially loaded movie idea like confederate is. also i don't see how those tidbits could possibly be dropped organically. "btw this movie will have race bending lol"

 

[Angelus Errare]

People seem to have got a bit bent out of shape by my useage of PC Thugs. By PC Thugs I mean the kind of people that shit on movies like Cloud Atlas using the argument of "yellow face" to justify their outrage.

Yea I can't imagine why black folks would get bent out of shape of being called PC "thugs", not like thug in the last 8ish years has become the go to dog whistle for nigger or anything.

 

[Bronx-Man]

This thread took a strange yet completely expected turn.

 

[lightskintwin]

Yea I can't imagine why black folks would get bent out of shape of being called PC "thugs", not like thug in the last 8ish years has become the go to dog whistle for nigger or anything.

last 8ish years? Thug has been a euphemism for decades.