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Taylor Swift pulls music from Spotify because music shouldn't be free

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There are so many people defending Swift yet they still give Metallica shit for what they did. At least Spotify pays artists, Napster didn't. Nor does Spotify have stolen half finished songs.

Also listening to the radio is free and I doubt an artist gets any more money from radio play.
 

Stet

Banned
It basically is the same in most cases. The money you pay to spotify doesn't affect how much money the artist makes per play. And considering that an artist only earns a few dollars for thousand of plays, you might as well just pirate.

What a weird sentiment. I'd rather have a few dollars than nothing.
 

kiguel182

Member
It basically is the same in most cases. The money you pay to spotify doesn't affect how much money the artist makes per play. And considering that an artist only earns a few dollars for thousand of plays, you might as well just pirate.

So we went from "pirating is like stealing" to "paying 7 euros a month is like stealing"?

Does this end when we all magically get loads of money so we can buy all the albuns we listen to?

I'm paying money to listen to music. I don't have tons of money so this is the best choice of me as a consumer. A legal choice that still gives artists some money.

And then I'm compared to someone that pirates music. Great.

I guess I'm also a pirate when I buy an Humble Bundle or when I buy something really cheap.

I get that Spotify should pay more money to artists but saying putting the blame on people or are subscribing to this services is, frankly, bullshit.
 
The music industry has changed. People like Trent Reznor and Thom Yorke get it, Taylor Swift does not.

Did she forget Google Play exists? Her albums are still on there.
KuGsj.gif
 

collige

Banned
So we went from "pirating is like stealing" to "paying 7 euros a month is like stealing"?

Does this end when we all magically get loads of money so we can buy all the albuns we listen to?

I'm paying money to listen to music. I don't have tons of money so this is the best choice of me as a consumer. A legal choice that still gives artists some money.

And then I'm compared to someone that pirates music. Great.

I guess I'm also a pirate when I buy an Humble Bundle or when I buy something really cheap.

I get that Spotify should pay more money to artists but saying putting the blame on people or are subscribing to this services is, frankly, bullshit.

The difference is that when you buy a humble bundle, your money actually goes to the artist. The 7 euros you pay to spotify per month does not actually help the artists you listen to on the service in any meaningful way and users need to understand that.
 

kiguel182

Member
Google's royalties are way better than Spotify's. I need to try All Acess after my Spotify subscription subscribes to see how it stacks up.

Those extra 3 euros a month might be worth it if the service is better and artists earn more from it.

The difference is that when you buy a humble bundle, your money actually goes to the artist. The 7 euros you pay to spotify per month does not actually help the artists you listen to on the service in any meaningful way and users need to understand that.

I'm still not a pirate and I take offense in being accused of being one when I'm paying for the music I listen to, one way or another.

Those 7 euros are contributing for Spotify to exist which in turn contributes for artists to keep earning money from there. If the only thing you understand is simple money transactions than that's your problem.
 
Thom Yorke pulled his music from Spotify too.

Really? I don't use Spotify anymore so I wouldn't know.

And Trent had this to say about a week ago. I agree it's a complex problem and will be interesting how it's dealt with in the future.

Nine Inch Nails frontman Trent Reznor recently addressed the matter of music devaluation, a prominent topic within the music industry over the past years that only garnered additional attention since major artists began offering their work for free.

"It's something I spent a lot of time thinking about," Reznor told Billboard.

"I think that paying for music is a relic of an era gone by - and I'm saying that as somebody who hopes you pay for music. I've spent my life trying to make this thing that now everyone thinks should be free.

"U2, there [was] an incentive to get in front of as many eyes as possible. I can see what was appealing to them about that, and they're getting paid for it. There's the argument of, 'Did that help further devalue music?' Yes, I think it did.

"When you put your music on, or allow your music to be on, YouTube, which is free, is that [devaluing music]? There's a whole generation of kids that listen to music on YouTube, and they'll suffer through that ad if there is one. They're not going to pay a dollar for that song - why would you? It's a complex problem."

During the rest of the chat, which also touched on the matter of Reznor's "top-secret project" with Apple, the musician pointed out: "I am on the side of streaming music, and I think the right streaming service could solve everybody's problems."
 

Nivash

Member
The difference is that when you buy a humble bundle, your money actually goes to the artist. The 7 euros you pay to spotify per month does not actually help the artists you listen to on the service in any meaningful way and users need to understand that.

What exactly do you suggest the users do - stop using a service they feel give them value out of some kind of moral revulsion? We're not exactly talking about us unknowingly exploiting third world sweatshop workers when we buy Nike here. No-one forced the artists to be on Spotify in the first place. It's a business transaction. Spotify and the artists are providing users a deal that they want to pay for. If the deal doesn't make sense to the artists then they should opt out like Taylor Swift did (and probably some others previously have, only with less fanfare). I fully encourage them to do it. That's how business works.

Until that point I will continue paying for Spotify and assume that it's a win-win for both parties. This entire line of thought is absurd to me.
 
There are two points that utterly dismantle this argument:
1. Admitting that a lack of payment would severely impact the art form - why would we even entertain the notion that "art should be free" if we know as a fact that the outcome would be negative? People cannot dedicate their life to an art if they are not able to sustain themselves. What this is proposing is art as part time - nothing more than a hobby.
I don't know, would it? The cost of the tool required to actually make an album have decreased dramatically with the introduction of computers since the 1980's. Sitting here at my sub $1000 computer, I can produce any sound that's virtually equivalent to all the music Taylor Swift is complaining about. Large capital expenditures are no longer needed to produce music. What is still required is human capital... or is it? Unlike the costs of building machines, we do not have to place the costs of human capital solely upon capital markets. We have other ways of sufficiently compensating people (human capital) outside of money alone- you just have to be imaginative enough to visualize a societal condition where that is the case. We're heading there anyway, and the entertainment industry doesn't want to embrace it.

The entertainment industry (and first of all, the music industry) is feeling the brunt of this change because what it produces is purely information (that so happens to be entertaining). Music, movies, games, visual art, and so on... they're all information. Handling information is something computers tend to be particularly good at.

However, the entertainment industry is not alone in feeling these effects. Will anyone really think Adobe will still be around in its current form 30 years from now? They've been getting less and less relevant as tech consortiums and volunteer coders have begun to replace their high priced software with free products. Are Adobe's workers entitled to a job? More crucially, are their investors entitled to make money from something that can be acquired for free? I understand Adobe's situation is different because their products are tools, and not a pieces of entertainment. To the user however, the utility of both is the same. If I can acquire a solution to a need for less money, why should I pay for it?

Point is, as Adobe is experiencing, the decline in costs to produce valuable goods has made it more difficult to procure revenue from their traditional product suite (though they will for some time because of the vicegrip on teaching their products at colleges and universities). It will continue to get harder as time goes on.

2. Following the above - that art without payment would be reduced to a part-time hobby - and arguing that "art" is different from "traditional work" because people would elect to do the former for free and not the latter is patently false. Unless you despise your line of work, I would argue most everyone would gladly volunteer or take up their line of work intermittently for free - even assembly line workers (hard to imagine volunteering to assemble a car, but the concept of doing assembly line work for free exists in food banks as an example).
If you aren't making your art because you love to do it, (you would do it for free if you could) then I doubt I want any part of it.

I am not going to get into arguing whether "art is work" as that is a blatant deflection from "art should be free." Regardless of the argument, however, art is an outcome of work - and you cannot dedicate full-time to any work without being paid; and anyone that has worked a day in their lives would not even entertain the notion that work should go unpaid.

But I'm not done:


The purpose of incorporating concepts of "capitalism" is redundant since there is no permutation of society that would lead to art unrelated to the concept of monetary value. Not in a capitalist society, not in a communist society, not in anything in-between. Not in the present, or in the past.
This is completely false. I bolded some stuff to highlight the most wrong part, but every bit of this section is false.

Not that I believe there should be no monetary value for art that is sold (I think it should be much lower), but free art is produced all the time. My aforementioned college choir gave free concerts regularly... in fact, I can't remember one in which people paid to get in. We weren't a shitty choir, either. And that leads me to my larger point...

My college choir produced and still produces plenty of art for free. We could do this because the University pays our expenses for the sake of having art on campus (as I stated previously, we don't have a music program). The University "micro" society is organized in such a way that it is able to afford the costs of a choir (and band) program despite receiving little to no monetary value from it. This is not to say that the art my choir produces has no value- we produce value for the University all the time through goodwill, name recognition, and positive association. However, it is to say that the value the choir provides cannot be easily quantified.

We can do this at a national level as well. In fact, we already should be doing this. Had wages risen in proportion to productivity over the past 40 years, the United States would be wealthy enough to organize itself in such a way to support the lives of artists (and all other citizens, no matter what they do). A mincome, and guaranteed housing are all that would really be required. Lest you say this is an impossible arrangement to create, you should know that we already have enough housing stock to comfortably house every American in this country. We simply don't provide guaranteed housing because we're stupid enough to think that capitalism (as we know it) is the only economic arrangement that will work ever. It's not.

Capitalism, as we know it today was created by governments- beginning with the Dutch East India Company. DEIC was the first corporation created as a legal entity recognized as by a government. Prior to this, "corporations" were nothing more that loose and informal bands of traders. Large corporations weren't even prevalent in America until post reconstruction.

Prior to capitalism, there was feudalism, in which the state heavily regulated the production of goods. Usually, the economy was organized to the benefit of royals, who in exchange offered protection to peasants. Peasants were essentially enslaved to the government with little ability to improve their condition. This arrangement was successful for a long time, until society became efficient enough to democratize economic power without surrendering military power. That is, military protection became something governments did as a matter of course- independent of an individual's, community's, or region's economic contribution. Societies became wealthy enough to discard the previous arrangement, and create a new one. What today we would call capitalism.

Capitalism is more efficient than feudalism, however, it has flaws. It is not good at doing things that have value, but cannot be monetarily quantified. It has no sense of the larger society. As human productivity continues improve, individuals will be more able to generate more economic power outside of the corporation. Once this reaches a critical mass, corporations will be regulated to only doing fairly complex things that require an assemblage of knowledge and capital that is outside of the grasp of the individual (or small informal group).

I think when you say "capitalism," you mean reciprocity. "What do I get in exchange for producing this art?" That's different from saying that what the artist must get in exchange for producing art is money. I think providing the artist (and all people) with guaranteed housing and guaranteed base income (mincome) would remove a substantial amount of the demand for what artists seek in exchange fore producing art. The society would have already compensated them for gracing us with their existence through guaranteed subsidies. After the needs of housing and income are satisfied, it becomes much easier to create art for its own sake.

As I said previously, I think Spotify's fees are low, but I also think artists should also move away from the notion that their art is worth "x" dollars because capitalism.

The closest we have gotten to art being separate from monetary value, ironically, is the one related to piracy - the utter THEFT of someone's property.
Also not true. See above.

Another incredible irony given that "first world" conditions is the only thing making us entertain the notion of art without pay. Some would-be artists in poorer countries don't even have the energy to lift an instrument because of an utter lack of basic humane conditions.
I agree with the premise, but disagree with the conclusion. First world conditions are creating a situation in which our society is so wealthy that we can allow people to create art for its own sake. We just don't do it yet because people are still to attached to the prior system of corporate capitalism.
 

Seth C

Member
The movie you rent on Netflix had a theatrical run, the book at the library had a first pressing / retail price, and before the artist who painted the works in the museum died, they were either commissioned to create their works or sold them in galleries.

Actually, a lot of the artists' whose paintings are in museums died poor if not penniless. They did it for the love of the art. Miss. Swift is getting paid. If she isn't getting paid to her liking, that's fine, she isn't forced to sell her music in that medium, but I don't give a fuck about listening to her whine about it. That's where the line is drawn.
 

collige

Banned
The reason I (and I suspect this applies to many of you too) don't pirate all my music, games etc, is because I feel the artists who produce works that I appreciate deserve to be compensated for their work. Paying a Spotify subscription does not do that. Their business model ensures that the majority of the royalties that come from my subscription go to the most popular artists on the entire service. The happen to be huge major label artists I don't listen to or give two shits about.

I want to support the artists I listen to, so I buy their music, simple as that.

Edit: If, as someone suggested earlier, Spotify paid royalties to the artists I listen to as a percentage of my subscription fee, that would be another matter entirely.
 

old

Member
Taylor Swift wrote about this months ago in an article she wrote for The Wall Street Journal.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/for-taylor-swift-the-future-of-music-is-a-love-story-1404763219

In recent years, you've probably read the articles about major recording artists who have decided to practically give their music away, for this promotion or that exclusive deal. My hope for the future, not just in the music industry, but in every young girl I meet…is that they all realize their worth and ask for it.

Music is art, and art is important and rare. Important, rare things are valuable. Valuable things should be paid for. It's my opinion that music should not be free, and my prediction is that individual artists and their labels will someday decide what an album's price point is. I hope they don't underestimate themselves or undervalue their art.

I will always stand behind an artist's decision to decide what their art costs. I still get to decide whether or not I will pay it. It's an awesome deal for me when artists put their music on Spotify's $10 per month all-you-can-stream buffet, but I recognize that may not be a great deal for some artists. I will respect the decision each artists makes in the matter.
 
Someone posted this in the popgaf mega thread:

That's the world's most obnoxious infographic based on a time when Spotify Premium was still ramping up. These days the royalty rates have either tripled or quadrupled based on 2010 and will only go up as Spotify increases its premium percentage.
 
The reason I (and I suspect this applies to many of you too) don't pirate all my music, games etc, is because I feel the artists who produce works that I appreciate deserve to be compensated for their work. Paying a Spotify subscription does not do that. Their business model ensures that the majority of the royalties that come from my subscription go to the most popular artists on the entire service. The happen to be huge major label artists I don't listen to or give two shits about.

I want to support the artists I listen to, so I buy their music, simple as that.
You mean like Taylor Swift?
 

liquidtmd

Banned
but in every young girl I meet…is that they all realize their worth and ask for it.

I'm realise she's talking metaphorically but again, at what point does the metaphor stop and getting paid $30,000,000 in 2013 begin?

Just because she's earning that much doesn't invalidate her having an opinion on self-worth, but it presents difficultly in looking at the argument about making sure a 'fair price' is paid for her services and product. Market forces and demand will ultimately dictate what price her services and 'product' fetches but are you seriously telling me each and every person involved in the creation of her product are paid equally in proportion to their contribution?

I doubt it highly and until that wealth distribution inequality is addressed in her own 'house', it's a bit rich going after these other distribution platforms.
 

kiguel182

Member
Payments-per-1m.png


Relative-Figures-Chart.png


Totally the same as pirating.

Also, artists have every right to decide what their music is worth. If they feel Spotify isn't worth it for them they should totally put out and it's understandable.

Just don't treat your fans/consumers as pirates.
 

Nivash

Member
The reason I (and I suspect this applies to many of you too) don't pirate all my music, games etc, is because I feel the artists who produce works that I appreciate deserve to be compensated for their work. Paying a Spotify subscription does not do that. Their business model ensures that the majority of the royalties that come from my subscription go to the most popular artists on the entire service. The happen to be huge major label artists I don't listen to or give two shits about.

I want to support the artists I listen to, so I buy their music, simple as that.

Edit: If, as someone suggested earlier, Spotify paid royalties to the artists I listen to as a percentage of my subscription fee, that would be another matter entirely.

But those are two different things: whether artists are being compensated and whether your money, in particular, is going to the things you want. Artists are being compensated in accordance to their popularity. Sure, most of "your" money goes to the popular acts but all the other tens of millions of users compensate the artists you listen to in some way as well, even though they never listened to them. This is the only remotely fair way I can think of.

If you want to directly support your favorite artists then you can do that by buying their music but that's never what Spotify has been about. And most people don't care, because we're not patrons - we're consumers.
 

Magwik

Banned
okay, Taylor Swift has a lot of money and gets paid else where, but that doesn't just suddenly excuse the fact that th compensation rate for Spotify is really awful. Just going off of the one posters picture of his friends song (or album can't remember which), but $14 for over 15,000 people to listen to is absurdly low.
 

MoodyFog

Member
The hell? If I had twenty favorite artists I'd still be buying like one or two albums a month at most

What I mean is, a lot of music lovers use spotify to listen to a loooot of good artists that they end up liking. In an ideal world they would be able to show their appreciation for their work, but if I bought every album i found great on spotify to support the artist, I'd end up in debt in a month.
 

studyguy

Member
It'll be back on streams in a few months once the sales die down to give the album a second wind, just watch. Whatever its all just a PR machine with her.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
What I mean is, a lot of music lovers use spotify to listen to a loooot of good artists that they end up liking. In an ideal world they would be able to show their appreciation for their work, but if I bought every album i found great on spotify to support the artist, I'd end up in debt in a month.
Right but then...how do those artists make a living?

I agree with the sentiment that the creative fields that result in digitizable content (authorship, music, cartooning, etc) are being pushed further towards being hobbies. And I don't think that's a good thing
 

Zoned

Actively hates charity
It basically is the same in most cases. The money you pay to spotify doesn't affect how much money the artist makes per play. And considering that an artist only earns a few dollars for thousand of plays, you might as well just pirate.
What an idiotic statement. This way you should better pirate game then buying them on steam sale or PS plus
 

kiguel182

Member
Right but then...how do those artists make a living?

I agree with the sentiment that the creative fields that result in digitizable content (authorship, music, cartooning, etc) are being pushed further towards being hobbies. And I don't think that's a good thing

Are the people who don't have money to buy records suddenly have that money?

Also, streaming still gives them money. And then there's live shows.

Streaming isn't the only way artists are making money. It's an extra way of revenue that is pushing people away from piracy to a system were they can generate revenue for artists.
 

MoodyFog

Member
Right but then...how do those artists make a living?

Their biggest fans will buy the albums, that would be their "one or two albums of the month" as you put it. For the rest, just merchandise and concerts. A lot of newcomers are already giving mixtapes and albums for free, on websites like bandcamp for example.

But that doesn't mean people shouldn't be able to listen to the music they want to, especially if they're already paying for a service like spotify.
 
The difference is that when you buy a humble bundle, your money actually goes to the artist. The 7 euros you pay to spotify per month does not actually help the artists you listen to on the service in any meaningful way and users need to understand that.

I understand that, but I don't care. Why should I?
 

Yaboosh

Super Sleuth
Right but then...how do those artists make a living?

I agree with the sentiment that the creative fields that result in digitizable content (authorship, music, cartooning, etc) are being pushed further towards being hobbies. And I don't think that's a good thing


The way they always have, concerts and merch.
 

StuBurns

Banned
?! Newsom has never been on a streaming service.

And she hasn't toured in years :/
I was going to correct you, but I just checked and it's already been two and a half years since I last saw her, wow, time goes fast.

I'm sure she'll be touring whenever she gets the new album out. It's been rumored it's delayed because Roy Harper is featured.
 

kiguel182

Member
So, I counted the listens a band I was listening to had to see how it stacked up to album sales.

I counted 7 songs out of a 12 track record since those were on the top and thus had the listens attached.

This band had around 2 million listens on those 7 songs so they earned approximate 12 thousand dollars off of that which corresponds to 1200 albuns at 10 dollars a piece. Remember almost half of the album is uncounted for since I don't have the data for that. But let's stick with this numbers so we extrapolate as little as we can.

So, how much did that record sell in the first week? Around 4500 units. That means that this low ball Spotify figure corresponds to more than 1/4 of their first week sales.

That hardly seems irrelevant and "the same as piracy". Also, take note that the more subscribers Spotify has the bigger the pay rate will be so "the dark grim future" is actually better than the present in terms of royalties.

So yeah, royalties need to get better but let's not act like using Spotify or pirating is the same thing or that there's no middle term between buying an album or pirating it.

And given that piracy has decreased since streaming got popular it's hard to believe that without Spotify that band would have 1200 new sales.
 
If artists do not like their royalites they should get a new deal with their record company, go to a better company or do it on their own.
 

Mr.Pig

Member
If artists feel that spotify "steals" their potential cd sales, couldn't an optional limit on how many times a spotify user can play a specific song before they have to buy it, be a solution?
Then the artists will still have the benefit of being available and discoverable on spotify while spotify at least doesn't get huge gaps in their catalogue.

Of course, it will make spotify subscriptions much less enticing.
 

CoolOff

Member
Someone posted this in the popgaf mega thread:


iOh5KTB9dmKp4.png

I just want to point out that this is from April 2010. Let's not use 5 year old sources in an industry that is moving this rapidly.

Eh. I pay £120 a year for Spotify (plus generally a ticket for a music festival), I don't feel I'm not paying enough for music.

This is how I feel about it, and if one of my favourite bands says "I can't survive on my income as it is" I'd be happy to contribute to them via Patreon or something like that, but I truly feel I spend enough on music every year to justify my consumption of it.
 

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
People saying bands make money through touring probably have no clue how much most smaller bands make actually playing shows.

opening bands at a smaller club, or even medium club will be lucky to make enough to pay for beer. the 2nd act, could probably cover a cocktail for each band member and then the gas money to get there. The headliner.. it really depends.. but couple thousand per show.. and keep in mind bands typically or 3 or more members, and gas.. equipment.. food.. hotels... and split that all.. and yeah.. they better hope to sell some t-shirts, stickers and cd's.

It's like the recent expose on minor league baseball.. people think because A-Rod makes $25mil a year that all the players are doing good.. the minor leaguers don't even make federal min wage.
 

Timedog

good credit (by proxy)
She's planning on pulling her songs off radio, commercials, cmt, mtv, vh1, etc too then right? I'm pretty sure one of her songs is playing for free somewhere right now if I flip through enough tv channels or radio stations. Can't have that.
 

eot

Banned
There are so many people defending Swift yet they still give Metallica shit for what they did. At least Spotify pays artists, Napster didn't. Nor does Spotify have stolen half finished songs.

How are those two comparable? Swift isn't suing anyone.
 

MoodyFog

Member
People saying bands make money through touring probably have no clue how much most smaller bands make actually playing shows.

opening bands at a smaller club, or even medium club will be lucky to make enough to pay for beer. the 2nd act, could probably cover a cocktail for each band member and then the gas money to get there. The headliner.. it really depends.. but couple thousand per show.. and keep in mind bands typically or 3 or more members, and gas.. equipment.. food.. hotels... and split that all.. and yeah.. they better hope to sell some t-shirts, stickers and cd's.

It's like the recent expose on minor league baseball.. people think because A-Rod makes $25mil a year that all the players are doing good.. the minor leaguers don't even make federal min wage.

So you're saying making music is hard because it's a very competitive industry, nothing new with that..
 

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
So you're saying making music is hard because it's a very competitive industry, nothing new with that..

Yeah.. and the point is.. that those looking at things like Spotify and Pandora for exposure kind of miss the point... those guys are getting about the exact payout as they did from Oink! back in the day.. NOTHING.

Spotify and Pandora, especially when paid for.. are like a way for people to still torrent music and not feel bad about it.. but in the end the results are the same for the artist.

No one has found that level of compensation that's fair across the board.
 
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