• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Tencent and NetEase are rethinking their Japan investment as Japanese developers failed to produce hit games

Tiago Rodrigues

Gold Member


  • China’s biggest game publishers are rethinking expansion plans
  • ‘Wukong’ success also encouraged looking domestically for hits
Tencent Holdings Ltd. and NetEase Inc. are reconsidering or scaling back many of their investments in Japanese studios, after years of spending yielded few hit games and the Chinese market staged a comeback.

NetEase has cut all but a handful of jobs at its Ouka studio in Tokyo, according to people familiar with the matter. It intends to shut the Shibuya outfit, which had opened with much fanfare in 2020 and gone on to hire veterans from big names such as Capcom Co. and Bandai Namco Holdings Inc. The few that remain will oversee the rollout of its final games, before the studio winds down.

NetEase’s far larger rival, Tencent, is also reconsidering the pace and scale of investments in the country, the people said, asking not to be named as the details aren’t public. It’s already backed off from at least several funding commitments for new games, the people said.
China realizing they don't need Japan to have hit videogames.

A lot is changing in this industry right now huh...
 

Haint

Member
They're not wrong, Japan's talent fell off a cliff around the mid to late 'aughts in cataclysmic fashion. I still have no idea how they went from producing the undisputed best games in the world that were technologically a generation ahead of everyone else, to putting out mostly abject trash from the HD era on.
 
Last edited:

Punished Miku

Human Rights Subscription Service
Can't blame them. China can be invested in cheaply and they're hungry and ready to prove themselves. BMW, Genshin have already shaken things up and its barely started.

I love Japanese games but they're stagnating. I just picture 50 million going to a top tier Chinese studio to make a RPG and its pretty clear its got potential to be nuts.
 

delishcaek

Neo Member
That game has nothing to do with either Tencent or Netease.
Ouka Studios is a subsidiary of NetEase. Ouka Studios developed Visions of Mana.

Square Enix's Mana series producer Masaru Oyamada revealed that NetEase's Ouka Studios is working as the development studio behind the new game.
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Ouka Studios (devs of Visions of Mana) is owned by Netease, Square is publishing the game.

Ouka Studios is a subsidiary of NetEase. Ouka Studios developed Visions of Mana.




Well shit, consider me corrected. I thought Visions was an internally SE developed game.
 

Robot Carnival

Gold Member
not enough pay2win mobile trash for their liking I assume?

this right here. they're looking for money, not creativity (unless it's creativity in taking player's money). at this point, I avoid anything publish by them as much as I can because I know anything with Tencent or Netease's name attached would tend to be P2W and designed to pointlessly grind.

They're not wrong, Japan's talent fell off a cliff around the mid to late 'aughts in cataclysmic fashion. I still have no idea how they went from producing the undisputed best games in the world that were technologically a generation ahead of everyone else, to putting out mostly abject trash from the HD era on.

I think it's not so much as the talents themselves fell off, but we the consumers had been too mesmerized by hardware and software advancement that they're forced to keep catching up before their understanding and skill are matured. true gems takes time and real understanding of what you're working with in order to produce. and often times the hardware limitations would turn into some interesting innovations from devs to overcome them. without these limits, sometimes the innovations would also stagnate.
 

Mibu no ookami

Demoted Member® Pro™
They're not wrong, Japan's talent fell off a cliff around the mid to late 'aughts in cataclysmic fashion. I still have no idea how they went from producing the undisputed best games in the world that were technologically a generation ahead of everyone else, to putting out mostly abject trash from the HD era on.

Cultural difference in game design.

Japanese studios were building games with fresh new engines for every game or nearly every game. These games didn't sell big numbers in many cases because of poorly conceived exclusivity deals, but also because they weren't as advanced in many cases as games that were built on Unreal, Unity, Maya e.t.c.

As Japan pushed gacha games and F2P games, their audience moved more to mobile and handheld and collapsed their console market.

Outside of Nintendo, with the exception of Elden Ring and FromSoftware, you don't really have studios putting out big hit games like GTA, Red Dead, CoD, Cyberpunk, Witcher, God of War, Uncharted, The Last of Us... Even Ghost of Tsushima outdid what most Japanese publishers can consistently produce. Nor do they have the annual releases like Madden or 2K.

Square Enix lost most of its talent in the 90s and early 2000s. Talent left big publishers across the Japanese market to strike it big on their own, largely without success as everyone wanted to work for themselves. They used to have the best looking games with the largest worlds.

Capcom is probably the only real exception to that as they've been able to revitalize Resident Evil and Monster Hunter became a global success.

If they're going to have success again in the AAA space, they're going to have to rally around the PS5 and PC and work on games with larger scopes.
 
Can't blame them. China can be invested in cheaply and they're hungry and ready to prove themselves. BMW, Genshin have already shaken things up and its barely started.

I love Japanese games but they're stagnating. I just picture 50 million going to a top tier Chinese studio to make a RPG and its pretty clear its got potential to be nuts.

I wouldn’t really say China is producing “innovative” games as they tend to take a lot of inspiration mechanics-wise from Japanese games.
The main difference is that Chinese devs aren’t trying to appeal to the type of “Western market” that Japanese mega-corps are being told exists.
 

Mibu no ookami

Demoted Member® Pro™
I think it's not so much as the talents themselves fell off, but we the consumers had been too mesmerized by hardware and software advancement that they're forced to keep catching up before their understanding and skill are matured. true gems takes time and real understanding of what you're working with in order to produce. and often times the hardware limitations would turn into some interesting innovations from devs to overcome them. without these limits, sometimes the innovations would also stagnate

Just look at Vision of Mana that just released recently. The game doesn't even look as good as Genshin Impact... budget and scope are just entirely too limited. The Mana series could have beat Genshin Impact to the punch decades ago... But Square Enix was only focused on milking FF, DQ, and KH.
 

Robot Carnival

Gold Member
Just look at Vision of Mana that just released recently. The game doesn't even look as good as Genshin Impact... budget and scope are just entirely too limited. The Mana series could have beat Genshin Impact to the punch decades ago... But Square Enix was only focused on milking FF, DQ, and KH.

I imagine being force to answer to shareholders have something to do with it too. having to meet the profit margin means you tend to fall back to something safe and not take risk.
 

Punished Miku

Human Rights Subscription Service
Just look at Vision of Mana that just released recently. The game doesn't even look as good as Genshin Impact... budget and scope are just entirely too limited. The Mana series could have beat Genshin Impact to the punch decades ago... But Square Enix was only focused on milking FF, DQ, and KH.
Not like its just Mana. Metaphor is nearly identical in terms of tech with Persona 5. That's a PS3 game.
 

Mibu no ookami

Demoted Member® Pro™
I imagine being force to answer to shareholders have something to do with it too. having to meet the profit margin means you tend to fall back to something safe and not take risk.

Rockstar took a huge risk with GTA3 and look at what we got.

I was calling for an MMORPG based on Secret of Mana with a budget similar to Ocarina of Time way back in the day.

I remember the first time I played Graal Online and I knew if the game looked and played like Seiken Densetsu 3 it would be a huge hit.

Similarly, I always thought that there should be a Pokemon MMORPG that played like Pokemon but looked like Pokemon Colosseum.

Not like its just Mana. Metaphor is nearly identical in terms of tech with Persona 5. That's a PS3 game.

It's pretty widespread. It works for some companies, but it will also hold companies back. Eventually fans start to get cheap and get fed up with getting milked for low budget games.

I would have paid 10 dollars for an upgrade of P5R on PS5, but there was no upgrade path and what was worse is you couldn't reuse your game save... A PS3 game that was on PS4 and "boosted" on PS5... and they wanted you to drop 60 dollars on it. That's greed. And obviously they made some sort of deal with Microsoft, but it was anti-consumer to not let you use your save games AND not have an upgrade path. As a result, they won't get my money on it and I might not buy P6 on Day 1.
 

BennyBlanco

aka IMurRIVAL69
Hard to say Japan can’t make good games anymore. Rebirth, Yakuza 8, Elden Ring DLC. Persona 3 Remake, upcoming Metaphor, Mario Wonder, Zelda TotK, all games that are critically acclaimed and at least million sellers. All released in the past 18 months.

Not to say they can’t make good games, they just aren’t producing smash hits (other than Nintendo evergreens). Biggest success stories out of Japan in the last few years are Palworld and Elden Ring. FF games are not justifying their budgets.
 

NanaMiku

Member
I wouldn’t really say China is producing “innovative” games as they tend to take a lot of inspiration mechanics-wise from Japanese games.
The main difference is that Chinese devs aren’t trying to appeal to the type of “Western market” that Japanese mega-corps are being told exists.
Yeah, Chinese devs are appealing to Asia market. Hoyoverse marketing is really strong in my country in SEA
 

Angry_Megalodon

Gold Member
From a technical standpoint China is catching up real fast. For example, ZZZ is what a next-gen Persona looks like, being fully voiced and with top-tier animations, etc. Companies like Kuro (Wuthering Waves) and Hypergryph are also raising the bar. Their production values are better than any retail-priced anime game. For the youngest audiences, that's the new standard. Only legacy IPs like Zelda, Pokemon or Monster Hunter look immune to that, but I wouldn't bet either.

Besides, Mihoyo has achieved what Rockstar and Ubisoft did years ago: set the rules of the new genres by introducing a trademark game loop and elements common in all their games and people are getting used to them.

Many Japanese devs need a serious reboot, because right now only From Software, Nintendo and Capcom are in a safe spot.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
They're not wrong, Japan's talent fell off a cliff around the mid to late 'aughts in cataclysmic fashion. I still have no idea how they went from producing the undisputed best games in the world that were technologically a generation ahead of everyone else, to putting out mostly abject trash from the HD era on.
All the PC focused devs started porting western games to consoles. And not crap ports like during the PS1 era which could never keep up with a PC with a 3D card.

Japanese games have always skewed to a range of games from JRPG, aracdey/action or racing games, fighters, quirky games. Western game studios brought on western style games which are more earthtone and realistic. and console gamers now focus on them unless it's Nintendo.

So a lot of the Japanese game companies fell behind, since they never evolved. If more Japanese studios focused on making games rivaling GT made by PD, they'd be in a better spot.

Even to this day, the most popular games (which skew competitive MP), are shooters, sports, league of legends kind of games, Minecraft/Roblox, giant ass SP productions like R* or Sony SP, and way back RTS. None of these types of games Japanese studios really make. For whatever reason, the devs and studios avoid them like the plague. The only highly competitive MP genre they make are fighting games which is a small segment of gamers.
 
Last edited:

ToneyJ

Member
Japan getting cooked. It's almost like focusing exclusively on the western market was a mistake. Those USA branches telling them to drop fan service and pushing progressive nonsense are really helping too. Oh and keep skipping on Nintendo platforms and staying irrelevant in Japan, Namco and Square, it's working brilliantly for you.
 
Last edited:

Dirk Benedict

Gold Member
Can't blame them. China can be invested in cheaply and they're hungry and ready to prove themselves. BMW, Genshin have already shaken things up and its barely started.

I love Japanese games but they're stagnating. I just picture 50 million going to a top tier Chinese studio to make a RPG and its pretty clear its got potential to be nuts.
I don't like to agree with this, but.. it is what it is. Japan seems to be compromised with the DEI junk, so they need to sort it out or become another bastion of flops.
 
Last edited:

Felessan

Banned
not enough pay2win mobile trash for their liking I assume?
Too much of those and they don't need them as they have their own.
Japan is this "pay2win mobile trash" - like 90% of market is mobile. And their quality is not really good compared to chinese counterparts.
This is problem with many japanese developers - they chased clouds for years, missing progress in both technology and game design, until they became obsolete (similar to what happened to japan phones)
 

Kumomeme

Member
they has point but it feels like jumping conclusion too soon. its like they suddenly become overconfident due to one game which is Black Myth : Wukong. there is no guarantee they would get similliar success next.

but at same time this is good example of how a successfull game like Wukong might spark an upcoming future of high quality AAA games from China. perhaps Wukong's success give them the push that their industry need.
 

Labadal

Member
On the subject of Ouka Studios. It was known before the release of Visions of Mana that the studio would be shut down.

Nagoshi not having released anything is the biggest waste of all. RGG are not the same without him.
 
What type of games are we talking about here.

If its mobile, I imagine Japan should still be doing well.

For home consoles, they would be smart to wrap up there and invest in China instead.

Final Fantasy etc should be doing BMW numbers/hype. Till they reach there, let them work on it.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Too much of those and they don't need them as they have their own.
Japan is this "pay2win mobile trash" - like 90% of market is mobile. And their quality is not really good compared to chinese counterparts.
This is problem with many japanese developers - they chased clouds for years, missing progress in both technology and game design, until they became obsolete (similar to what happened to japan phones)
A key problem is their stubborness to stick with traditional Japanese genres and art. There's a limited amount of console/PC gamers that go for that now when console hardware became powerful enough to do awesome realistic graphics, scope, online breadth, tons of stats like a PC game would have etc.... Might had been a good choice back in the day where graphics as a whole still looked pretty basic where colourful graphics and anime characters stuck, while western games trying it's best with realistic graphics struggled as the fidelity wasnt there yet due to hardware limits. But now console gamers not wanting to play on PC or pay for a PC rig, play console and get solid western ports.

But they mostly prefer focusing on JRPG, gacha, fighting games, etc....

Somehow Chinese devs can make a BF clone like Delta Force Hawk Ops. You couldnt even tell it was made by a Chinese studio. But there is no way I'd ever see a Japanese dev making anything close to it. Right off the bat, it'd be anime-ish which would be an immediate turn off for a soldier shooter.
 
Last edited:

Felessan

Banned
A key problem is their stubborness to stick with traditional Japanese genres and art. There's a limited amount of console/PC gamers that go for that now when console hardware became powerful enough to do awesome realistic graphics, scope, online breadth, tons of stats like a PC game would have etc....
There is no problem in that.
Asia markets go for that and amount of gamers there simply massive, so it's really a non-issue. Genshin/HSR/ZZZ are the same artstyle (and genres) and still widely popular.
Graphically advanced games more likely be a korean or donghua style (which is essentially 3d anime like FF7:AC, GITS2, Apple Seed etc) like Stellar Blade and not realistic.

Problem with Japanese devs is that most they do is kinda outdated, it's like they still live in early 10's

Tencent only cares about mobile

Spend 500K on a game that produces 20 million + on micro transactions
They were involved in both Wukong and Stellar Blade (have stakes in both developers)
 
Makes sense. Especially after looking at the games produced by japanese and korean devs and then compare with japanese ones...One has mostly anime or small games, another one is pushing more realistic graphics.
 
Last edited:

Elios83

Member
After Stellar Blade and Wukong this year it's clear that we're headed towards a future where gaming development in Asia won't be necessarily synonymous with Japan anymore.
This can benefit players with more options, new IPs and hits so it's a positive for gamers, Japanese companies will have more competition which means they will have to step it up, an other positive.
 
Last edited:

SkylineRKR

Member
They can do it themselves.

And Japan needs to do it themselves as well. As much as I have a soft spot for Mana, I bought Wukong and I can't imagine liking Mana this much.
 

The Cockatrice

Gold Member
If u think Wukong is going to change the culture u're prolly dumb af. Theyre going to chase gatcha and mobile trends and thats it. Games like wukong will be like once every 5+ years or so and it isnt even a good game, but at least its free of modern trash.
 
Top Bottom