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Terror attack kills 12 at Paris newspaper - 4 wounded, gunmen identified

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Nesotenso

Member
No idea, maybe they're all just crazy. Maybe they are schizophrenics who hear voices in their heads telling them to do things and mistakenly believe that it's God.

Oh wait those would be the "prophets" who start religions...

wonder why everyone doesn't ascribe to the same mindset if the tenets of violence are so fundamental.

oh wait, maybe the justifications of the crazy ones doesn't really jive with the vast majority.

now let's post a video from someone who claims that the religion is depraved.

your fucking driveby shit is getting really predictable.
 
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Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
You don't know the poster then.



Look at his post history. His motives are clear.

None of that matters, really. How about attacking the post instead of making it personal and attacking the poster?
 

Maxim726X

Member
Ofcourse and that is 100% true. Though the whole definition of someone being qualified as a moderate muslim is something I do not like and to have to go beyond just showing compassion by saying that they reject these attacks in order to satisfy people like Maher was my point. It's as though it would not be normal for a muslim to recognize the right of anyone to write and say what ever they want, instead they have to explicitly mention it.

Atleast that's the way I experience it.

Well, honestly when I read some of the polling statistics I believe we're at the point where we can't make many assumptions about their viewpoints. And if there was more public condemnation about incidences like this, perhaps things may start to change for the better.
 
There are a lot of pseudo-intellectuals both in the West and even among some Turks, who exaggerate the religiosity and conservatism that exists in Anatolia. The number of internet comments I've read about how "Istanbul is the exception, but go on the Asian part of Turkey and see it's another world" makes my blood boil. Off the top of my head alone we have the liberal bastions of Izmir, Antalya, Balikesir, Eskisehir, Adana, Ankara (THE FUCKING CAPITAL) etc. etc. etc. the list goes on and on and on, in fact some of the Anatolian cities are overall more liberal than Istanbul is.

Then let us take the Black Sea region which is admittedly conservative, but not the kind of Islamic Conservatism that Westerners think of. Black Sea people remind me of the American Midwest or Southern US States.

The one part of Turkey where medieval Islamic values (child brides, 4 wives etc.) hold sway is the South-East Kurdish majority region. But acknowledging that fact would go against the rhetoric that Turks are the evil Muslims and Kurds are the meek Seculars.

Well said. I'd even argue generally the people in Turkey are more liberal than Turks in western countries who are clinging on harder to their cultural identity. Black sea people are just fervent nationalists lol.
 

Xando

Member
Oh, I thought people were actively campaigning to have laws changed.

Still pretty reprehensible. I hope they were arrested.

Well they kinda are. These Salafists give out quran's in german citys, recruit young men for ISIS and demonstrate to implement sharia laws in germany. They are also a big reason why Pegida started.
 

Frodo

Member
follow Pakistani media and social media, you will see the same mocking of religious leaders and clerics who are corrupt but not religion itself.

I respect and I defend everyone's right to practice their religions. But I also defend my right to question or mock or not follow or not being forced to follow any of those religions. If any religion is preaching something ridiculous (like not allowing women to study) I reserve my right to mock it and to criticise it. If a religion becomes so sensitive that ONE DRAWING can anger the extremists to the point that they seem necessary to kill other people to protect the religion they believe in (even though their view of that religion may be distorted) then I'll probably question and mock it.

Edit to clarity: RELIGION MUST BE SUSCEPTIBLE TO CRITICS. Otherwise it will be used, as it has been (and still is) before to control masses to achieve whatever the goals of the clerics in power are.
 
Where in his comment was he defending Christianity or any other religion?
What a bizarre and yet totally unsurprising response...

Jesus fuck am I the only one who recognizes this poster as the Catholic Defense Force brigade.

None of that matters, really. How about attacking the post instead of making it personal and attacking the poster?

I've already stated that it's not fair to lump groups of people into the actions of a few men. I've already stated that I dislike all three religions. I've already stated that I think Tribalism and dissatisfaction in life are probably the main causes for violent interpretations of a text that can be interpreted in a multitude of ways.
 

Valhelm

contribute something
I'm sure someone will come up with a fantastic justification for this somehow.

There's no way to justify the murder of political opponents. I do feel compelled to point out that this is hardly unique to Mohammad, though.

Regardless, this is pretty good evidence that treating Mohammad like a perfect person is bad.
 

King_Moc

Banned
Oh, I thought people were actively campaigning to have laws changed.

Still pretty reprehensible. I hope they were arrested.

I went out with an ex Muslim girl about 4 years ago that had ran away from her home in London after her uncle stabbed her in the shoulder. She wasn't Muslim enough, apparently. I honestly don't think it's that uncommon. Though maybe they usually just shun them.
 
Well they kinda are. These Salafists give out quran's in german citys, recruit young men for ISIS and demonstrate to implement sharia laws in germany. They are also a big reason why Pegida started.

Pegida is also fueled by the twisted idea of political correctness on display by german officials and mainstream politicians, lest they be called Nazis again.
 

Angry Fork

Member
I'm sure someone will come up with a fantastic justification for this somehow.

It didn't actually happen, or it's a "fable" meant to teach us something rather than what we should literally believe in. It's all cherry picking. Same shit with the bible.

Fact is "moderates" have had to do more and more cherry picking the stronger the secular state and liberal values get. They will continue to be forced to backtrack or become irrelevant.

First it was all the word of god, then only some of it was, then it was written by men but those men knew god personally, then it was just a set of moral "guidelines" and shouldn't be taken literal. Soon enough the main organized religions will be seen as mythology like the rest of it, and shit like scientology will replace the old beliefs.


You don't have to believe it yourself, but I don't think disregarding the entity that billions of people hold dear and self identify with is something that should be encouraged.

Just on a communication level, empathizing with people that follow a religion has similar value as empathizing with any other person.

I empathize with people who believe in religion because it consoles them, or they find hope in it and so on because of how shitty the world can be. I'm just saying that doesn't make it true, and we shouldn't hold something that isn't true up to a higher standard than any other myth, regardless of how many people believe it.
 

Izcarielo

Banned
Yikes. That's one of the most hate filled post I've ever seen on the forum. You just completely disregarded anyone who has a belief that opposes yours. That's very inconsiderate.

I dont have any belief but i can respect buddist people or christian people that mind their own business without harming anyone.
I cannot stand Islam, its a poisoning mindset. Thats all
 
Iran, Qatar, Arab League and other islamic organizations condemn the attacks:

Iran says terrorism 'alien to doctrine and teachings of Islam'

Iran's government also condemned the killing but reiterated its criticism of the weekly's 2006 publication of cartoons of the Muslim prophet.

"All acts of terrorism against innocent people are alien to the doctrine and teachings of Islam," foreign ministry spokeswoman Marzieh Afkham told the official IRNA news agency.

She said attacks like that on Charlie Hebdo were part of a "wave of radicalism" that had spread around the world over the past decade, fanned in part by "poor policies and double standards in tackling violence and extremism".

But she renewed Iranian criticism of the magazine's decision to reprint 12 cartoons of Mohammed published by the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten in a statement for freedom of expression.

The cartoons, including one which showed a turban as a bomb, prompted angry protests in Iran as well as other Muslim countries.

"Making use of freedom of expression... to humiliate the monotheistic religions and their values and symbols is unacceptable," Ms Afkham said.

On its Facebook page Egypt's leading Islamic authority, Al-Azhar, a thousand-year-old seat of religious learning respected by Muslims around the world, condemned the attack as "a criminal act".

Qatar, which has been accused of supporting radical Islamist groups in troubled Arab countries such as Libya and Syria, expressed "strong" condemnation of the attack and offered condolences to the victims' families.

"Such acts that target unarmed civilians contradict all principles and moral and human values," the foreign ministry said in a statement.

Arab League and other top Muslim bodies also condemned the attack.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-08/charlie-hebdo-shooting-world-leaders-react/6005628
 
Well, honestly when I read some of the polling statistics I believe we're at the point where we can't make many assumptions about their viewpoints. And if there was more public condemnation about incidences like this, perhaps things may start to change for the better.

there's been enough public condemnation for nearly every major incident in the last few years. Both major clerics and general muslims have spoken out constantly its just that people either choose to ignore it so they can continue making the same tired argument or they dont want to hear it so as not to change their opinion on what the problem really is.
 

Mael

Member
Do you mean in France? I remember the Paris Metro bombing in 1995 and another thing from 2 years ago.

Meh 1995 is still a long time ago.
It quite clearly isn't happening every day or something like that.
The bombing of London Underground is actually pretty recent and you have the Madrid bombing that is closer to this too.
And there have been bombing plots targeting Germany so yeah going all "why is it always France and UK and not Germany?" on us is all kind of shortsighted.

However it is not the 1rst time Charlie Hebdo have been targeted and that have really nothing to do with the RER B bombing though.
 
I went out with an ex Muslim girl about 4 years ago that had ran away from her home in London after her uncle stabbed her in the shoulder. She wasn't Muslim enough, apparently. I honestly don't think it's that uncommon. Though maybe they usually just shun them.

British muslims are on many ocassions more conservative than even pakistani muslims. no surprise the uncle is a nut from london
 

Maxim726X

Member
there's been enough public condemnation for nearly every major incident in the last few years. Both major clerics and general muslims have spoken out constantly its just that people either choose to ignore it so they can continue making the same tired argument or they dont want to hear it so as not to change their opinion on what the problem really is.

Polling data disagrees, sorry to burst your bubble.

Reading through twitter feeds and facebook status updates doesn't really give us a clear depiction of the majority of the Muslim world, does it?
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
I've already stated that it's not fair to lump groups of people into the actions of a few men. I've already stated that I dislike all three religions. I've already stated that I think Tribalism and dissatisfaction in life are probably the main causes for violent interpretations of a text that can be interpreted in a multitude of ways.

Well, I can't disagree with any of this...

Still, though, I think his point stands. Bill Maher is a pretty well known anti-Islamist, I'd say, but his tweet that's being quoted still stands.
 
New York Time's front page:

B6xpfroIgAEjzw-.jpg
 

Kraftwerk

Member
I love when countries such as Iran "condemn" these attacks, same with the Arab countries.

"we condemn these attacks on the innocent......now excuse us while we go lynch, stone and behead the homosexuals, adulterers and other people we do not like.
 
Polling data disagrees, sorry to burst your bubble.

Reading through twitter feeds and facebook status updates doesn't really give us a clear depiction of the majority of the Muslim world, does it?

if theres solid polling data (could you link it) about what muslims believe then that 1 thing, i'm just saying theres plenty of condemnation, that is one point you cant argue.
 
There are many examples actually. Mostly extremists of course. But they do get support and some communities are pro having their own rules within it.

That's what you get with the formation of large ghetto's that are pretty much oblivious towards the country around them because of the lack integration.

Yeah, the ghetto situation is probably something every country will need to address sooner or later. I know the UK is currently burying its head in the sand when it comes to Bradford and Manchester, but these issues do need to be addressed eventually.

Not that there's anything wrong with groups of similar ethnicity or culture wanting to live together, it's when they start believing they can live their own preset rules and the rules of the land are secondary to those is when problems arise.

Well they kinda are. These Salafists give out quran's in german citys, recruit young men for ISIS and demonstrate to implement sharia laws in germany. They are also a big reason why Pegida started.

I've seen people handing out pamphlets in the UK too, although actively and openly recruiting for IS is crazy.

I went out with an ex Muslim girl about 4 years ago that had ran away from her home in London after her uncle stabbed her in the shoulder. She wasn't Muslim enough, apparently. I honestly don't think it's that uncommon. Though maybe they usually just shun them.

Not Muslim enough? The fuck. What was the reason for the uncle making such a claim and where the hell were the parents?

I hope she reported the fucker.
 
Well, I can't disagree with any of this...

Still, though, I think his point stands. Bill Maher is a pretty well known anti-Islamist, I'd say, but his tweet that's being quoted still stands.

Like I said, if I didn't think he was just being an opportunist waiting to shit on Islam,I wouldn't have commented.

I love Bill Maher and am only frustrated he seems takes a weak stance on Israel.
 
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Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member

Cyd0nia

Banned
They need to be apprehended alive and not be able to take the easy way out to 100 virgins et al. They need to be put in jail for life until they understand what they have done.

The kind of human mind that can go this far is rarely anything but defective and worthless, completely without empathy or a belief in the sanctity of human life. They will never understand what they have done. Not really.

Radical Islam is a mentally degenerative virus and it should start being treated like one. Treated, contained or exterminated. We sometimes put dogs down when they do harm, and dogs are animals that know no better. These guys are thinking, walking, calculating human beings. It's quite hard to contain the feeling of rage when something like this happens. Due process sure, but if anyone has any way of shaking these people the fuck off the planet, I'm all for it. Life in prison would be a good start, but is it really justice? Can there be justice? Their victims cannot be brought back from the dead. Preserved principles are only a silver lining really. They may be apprehended now, and I hope they are - but the footage of their glorious day out in Paris will no doubt make news on foreign video productions set to black flags, subtitles and incomprehensible wailing. Nobody wins.
 
I don't understand your point. I'm referring to poll data (the poll which Maher and Harris referred to) which presents data that would indicate the majority of Muslims believe that leaving the religion should be met with death. I don't have exact statistics on how those who portray Mohammed should be treated, but the point still remains.

People still talk about things like this like a minority of the faith condemn them. According to data, that simply isn't the case. If half a billion people believe what happened here is justified (and again, I don't have the data so I can't say for certain) it's not the right place for the 'a few bad apples' defense.

Rock out with the data and we'll see. Those of the Muslim faith I know and have met personally have been normal people.

People act like "Muslim" equals extremist. I don't like the religion myself, but I know that is 23% percent of the world's population was really that bad, we'd see a lot more dead people. So there's a gulf in perception here.

For example, here's an article from Pew Research, talking about the fact that social hostilities involving religion were at a six-year high last year. Your thoughts probably automatically goes to violence involving Muslim faith, but there's far more, usually in cases where they is a minority religion within a much larger one.

Some examples:

In Libya, for instance, two worshippers were killed in an attack on a Coptic Orthodox church in the city of Misrata in December 2012. This was the “first attack [in Libya] specifically targeting a church since the 2011 revolution,” according to the U.S. Department of State.

In Buddhist-majority Sri Lanka, for example, monks attacked Muslim and Christian places of worship, including reportedly attacking a mosque in the town of Dambulla in April 2012 and forcibly occupying a Seventh-day Adventist church in the town of Deniyaya and converting it into a Buddhist temple in August 2012.

In India, members of a Hindu nationalist organization, Hindu Jagarana Vedike, enforced a morality code, including an attack on young men and women for allegedly drinking and dancing at a birthday party in the state of Karnataka in July.

And in Moldova, two men attacked a Muslim woman in the capital city of Chisinau, calling her a “terrorist” and tearing her headscarf.

In China, for example, sectarian tensions escalated into violence in October 2012 when Tibetan Buddhist monks led an attack against Hui Muslims at a site where a new mosque was being built in Gansu province.

Or harassment by religion:
Harassment or intimidation of specific religious groups occurred in 166 countries in 2012, a six-year high. In 2012, government or social harassment of Muslims was reported in 109 countries; the previous high was 101 countries in the previous year of the study. Jews were harassed in 71 countries in 2012, slightly higher than the year before (69 countries, which was the previous high). Harassment of Christians continued to be reported in the largest number of countries (110), an increase from the previous year (105) but not a six-year high. There also was an increase in the number of countries in which Hindus, Buddhists and members of folk or traditional religions were harassed.

Based on size, Jews are actually harassed more than other religious adherents.
Overall, across the six years of this study, religious groups were harassed in a total of 185 countries at one time or another. Members of the world’s two largest religious groups – Christians and Muslims, who together comprise more than half of the global population – were harassed in the largest number of countries, 151 and 135, respectively.34 Jews, who comprise less than 1% of the world’s population, experienced harassment in a total of 95 countries, while members of other world faiths were harassed in a total of 77 countries.

Here's data which shows social hostility rates by country. Most of the anger is in areas where there's already other issues and infrastructure problems - Middle East and North Africa - religion merely acts as a focusing point. (United States isn't low, btw) The Muslim faith is high in those countries, whereas the Christian faith is rather strong in the US, where we currently have a what could be called a more luxurious lifestyle.
 

King_Moc

Banned
Not Muslim enough? The fuck. What was the reason for the uncle making such a claim and where the hell were the parents?

I hope she reported the fucker.

She ran away with her boyfriend, so no. Her parents had disowned her. The boyfriend was probably the issue tbh, she didn't really go into specifics.
 
Berlin's daily newspaper BZ tomorrow:

B6xq3MUCAAA7ulV.jpg


That may be the best yet IMO. Wow.

quick clunky translation:
We mourn our colleagues from a French satirical magazine, who were murdered because they spoke out against all forms of fanatism. Their most courageous drawings are the title of Berlin's biggest newspaper. You can't shoot freedom.
 

Frodo

Member
Your not adding the part that the poet was working with the enemy in trying to get them to fight Muhammad again.

But yes mocking any prophet in Islam is forbidden.

And why should people who don't believe in any of that follow that rule?
 
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