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Terror attack kills 12 at Paris newspaper - 4 wounded, gunmen identified

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People who pretend to condemn attacks but then simultaneously victim-blame by basically saying cartoonists "bring it on" by offending muslims, not being more sensitive to religious feelings, and so on. Many people did this during the danish cartoon situation.

That's not what Maher is saying. Maher is sayign that unless you openly say "go ahead and make fun of my religion, it's fine" you're not a moderate muslim. What?

No muslim should need to condemn the attacks because he's a muslim. If they do it it's because they feel for the victims as any person should.

And I'm going to stop right here, peace.
 
People who pretend to condemn attacks but then simultaneously victim-blame by basically saying cartoonists "bring it on" by offending muslims, not being more sensitive to religious feelings, and so on. Many people did this during the danish cartoon situation.

Who did that?? If anyone said that, it was a small minority. It was "Draw Muhammed Day" that people were against, there was really no point in that and it actually hurt the standing of free speech and other Western ideals in the Islamic world.
 

commedieu

Banned
He's Dutch though.

Danish..? That guy was dutch..

He was Dutch.


Nah, the guy that did this, got attacked with axes.

islm_cartoon_7.jpg


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jan/04/danish-cartoonist-axe-attack


I'm american.. trying to work out geography, OK! ;-)
 

El Topo

Member
It's not strictly new, they just recycled an old one. Still funny though.

Didn't know that as I don't follow Titanic. That reminded me of an old joke from Switch though where (if I recall correctly) they're reporting about comparison of religions, where Islam first scores bad and then, after the studio "mysteriously" shakes, scores an A.
 
How do you know they aren't?
There's this weird Aquinian thing ITT where the base assumption is that Muslims are silent and somehow complicit unless proven otherwise.

Super anecdotal but I work in Paris, I just had the shittiest afternoon at work, most people I ran into were as devastated as I still am and that includes all my Muslim coworkers. So yeah, I'm not a fan of their religion, I think it sucks, but it is absolutely irritating to think that all these decent hardworking people have all of a sudden to prove something, that they're not complacent with the tragedy that occurred today. They don't deserve that and the last thing we should be doing is viewing them as Other. We're all French and we were all hurt today.

Thank you for being reasonable.
 
Why do Italians/Brits/etc protest? It has fuck all to do with them but they protest it.
It's European countries showing solidarity amongst themselves also this has nothing to do with what I asked you. I asked you by you feel they 'have' to, have being the operative word.

By the merit of what you're asking should we find outrage that Sri Lankans, Americans, Canadians, Chinese, etc... aren't showing out in great numbers? Of course not, they're far from the epicenter so you wouldn't expect it.
 

GC|Simon

Member
I'm shocked by what happen in Paris today. Rest in peace victims.

This terrifying act of terror will lead to nothing. You kann kill people but not ideals. Ideals like freedom of speech. There is no room for extremism in this world.
 

Kathian

Banned
Who did that?? If anyone said that, it was a small minority. It was "Draw Muhammed Day" that people were against, there was really no point in that and it actually hurt the standing of free speech and other Western ideals in the Islamic world.

And the reaction to the cartoons damaged western views of the islamic worlds ability to show both tolerance and sanity.
 

spekkeh

Banned
Awesome, Back to the question. What can the large body of muslim do, to appease you? People that you can personally identify as muslims, chanting slogans..? Because I can give you links to muslims protesting or moments of peace for victims of bullshit.

What can they do differently than Christians who have wingnuts killing in the name of christ, or promoting female circumcision?

Frankly if I were a muslim I would have denounced my faith many years ago. If people started atrocities out of humanism's name, I would stop supporting humanism right there and then. But then having an open, relatively noncommittal outlook on life is probably why I'm not a muslim in the first place.
 
I completely agree that the Muslim individuals who are abhorred by this incident shouldn't have to go around screaming from the top of their lungs that they think this is bad. It shouldn't automatically be assumed that you are "one of the bad ones" if you aren't extremely vocal about it.
 

LNBL

Member
Sorry but merely condemning mass murder isn't good enough. That is the bare minimum to not be considered complete fucking scum.

"Wow they don't think innocent people should be massacred, how magnanimous of them!!"

4mxn3DP.png


Anything short of that is victim blaming.

"I condemn rape but if you're wearing a short skirt in the middle of the night bad things might happen..."\

Edit:



.

That tweet is bullshit. I don't like jokes being made about any religion in the world, just as I don't like jokes being made about sickness or wars. To have to openly and strongly endorse something just in the hope of people like Maher believing i'm a normal human being like the rest is ridiculous.
 
So now we are moving along. Originally, "Great message Maher, muslims don't speak out!" Now we are onto, "well, they don't speak out enough for me to personally approve what they are doing." Fact is it is happening, whether or not it gains traction is one thing. We know how media works, if we are being honest with one another. Its not newsworthy, at all. But it is in fact happening. The muslim population is gigantic, and probably as faceted as christianity ( I don't know, I'm assuming due to the different sects ), this doesn't provide for an opportunity for you to personally be appeased with muslims as a super organism officially announcing 1 message.

if you are into news, other than government controlled media, you can see that muslim people that are absolutely fucking disgusted. Even here on GAF. These are all voices that should be combined as a rationale, instead, they aren't given credit for being an official messenger.


How should muslims, worldwide, respond, to make people like yourself feel that they are actually upset at the loss of human life? Instead of the assumption that any mother or parent losing their loved ones is a dire strike to their heart? We can't assume this with muslims as they are different than you or I. So what do they need to officially do to appease people that condemn the millions of muslim populations around the world for not holding up signs that say isis is bad?

What I think Maher wants, and what I would like to see (though I'm not exactly demanding it) is some kind of concerted effort to beat back the idea of extremism within Islam such that there are far fewer extremists within the religion. I know that's a tall order (and I guess so does Maher), but its not without precedent. It happens within social movements all the time within the United States. People are exiled from the group when they become too extreme.

Maher wants Muslim leaders to stand up with a clear voice and exile those extremist from mainstream Islam. The 100 clerics' response to ISIS is a great and exciting start in this area. In fact, I think Maher gave credit to the clerics for publishing the paper (I may be wrong, his last show was a couple months ago). Its not that Maher or I want to tell Muslim people how to respond, or that we're suggesting that they're not responding, we're just pining for a well organized counter-argument.

I understand that such a counter argument is difficult to organize in many of the problem countries, but to suggest one should exist isn't the same thing as dismissing all Muslims.
 

Xando

Member
Why do Italians/Brits/etc protest? It has fuck all to do with them but they protest it.

Because we share the same believes and values as the french. We may not like it but we're basically the same kind of people. This attack could have been on british,german,spanish soil. It's basically a "If they attack the french they attack us" mentality.
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
Some of these comics...

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Z5ViNcu.png



Who did that?? If anyone said that, it was a small minority. It was "Draw Muhammed Day" that people were against, there was really no point in that and it actually hurt the standing of free speech and other Western ideals in the Islamic world.

"Draw Mohamed" day was a great thing, telling these people to fuck off and deal with the fact that people will insult them in a non-violent way.
 

Maxim726X

Member
Awesome, Back to the question. What can the large body of muslim do, to appease you? People that you can personally identify as muslims, chanting slogans..? Because I can give you links to muslims protesting or moments of peace for victims of bullshit.

What can they do differently than Christians who have wingnuts killing in the name of christ, or promoting female circumcision?

How about simply saying that they endorse drawings/cartoons/satire of their prophet or anything else related to the religion? And that they don't endorse killing those that leave the religion?

You won't hear that from most, because a few hundred million believers don't agree. There is the issue.
 

Izcarielo

Banned
This was going to happen one day. That rotten, obsolete piece of shit of a religion will dissapear anyway, like the rest of the religions in this planet.
We might wait 400/500 years though
 

commedieu

Banned
No one is talking about the guy attacked with an axe, they were correcting someone who stated that a Danish filmmaker was killed when it was a dutch filmmaker.

You can't just jump in and say "No one is talking about X." He said I was referring to a filmmaker, no, I was refereeing to the cartoonist that was attacked for drawing The Prophet. I thought he died, at the time. But, the point of bringing up the incident was to illustrate that the muslim community is often speaking out, there just isn't much news/hits/clicks in it. But its not to say that it isn't happening, and muslims are silent, as Maher's tweet suggested.

How about simply saying that they endorse drawings/cartoons/satire of their prophet or anything else related to the religion? And that they don't endorse killing those that leave the religion?

I think we are in agreement. My posts were to clarify that muslims, worldwide, have announced their disdain for the radicals. Its just nothing worth covering in a world of hit driven revenue.
 

Lime

Member
Nah, the guy that did this, got attacked with axes.

islm_cartoon_7.jpg


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jan/04/danish-cartoonist-axe-attack


I'm american.. trying to work out geography, OK! ;-)

Good catch, and like commedieu mentioned, the Danish cartoonist survived.

You are both confusing issues.

Kurt Westergaard (Danish) got attacked by a guy with an axe for making a cartoon.

Theo van Gogh (Dutch) got killed by a guy for making a film.
 

Mononoke

Banned
That tweet is bullshit. I don't like jokes being made about any religion in the world, just as I don't like jokes being made about sickness or wars. To have to openly and strongly endorse something just in the hope of people like Maher believing i'm a normal human being like the rest is ridiculous.

You aren't endorsing it. You are endorsing the fact that people have the right to make fun of religion without getting killed. I don't like Maher. But I agree that regardless of what faith you have, you shouldnt believe someone doesn't have the right to criticize it or make fun of it without being killed or being threatened. Even if you persoanlly don't endrose these kinds of jokes.
 

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
That tweet is bullshit. I don't like jokes being made about any religion in the world, just as I don't like jokes being made about sickness or wars.

There is a huge difference between actual human suffering through diseases and war, and some people, apparently unsure about the foundation of their believes, being offended by something "mean" somebody else said about some idea they have in their heads. You have no right to not be offended by somebody else's opinion on an idea and the expression thereof.

Goodness... To see these completely different things being morally equated by so many people is unbearably frustrating.
 
This was going to happen one day. That rotten, obsolete piece of shit of a religion will dissapear anyway, like the rest of the religions in this planet.
We might wait 400/500 years though

Yikes. That's one of the most hate filled post I've ever seen on the forum. You just completely disregarded anyone who has a belief that opposes yours. That's very inconsiderate.
 

Maxim726X

Member
That tweet is bullshit. I don't like jokes being made about any religion in the world, just as I don't like jokes being made about sickness or wars. To have to openly and strongly endorse something just in the hope of people like Maher believing i'm a normal human being like the rest is ridiculous.

Relatively sure you're confused.

He's not making a joke. He's saying that simply saying 'we're against the slaughter of innocent people' isn't really enough.

He wants to see people saying 'Though we may not agree with it, we recognize your right to draw/paint/satirize the prophet in any way you see fit, and if you are to do this you should not lose your life over it'.
 

Angry Fork

Member
The thing about fundamentalists "exploiting" religious text is that there are things in the text itself that are able to fulfill that fundamentalism if anyone chooses to "interpret" it in that way. It's not all positive or all negative, there are mixes of both. That's why these books are so stupid and obviously man-made.


Who did that?? If anyone said that, it was a small minority. It was "Draw Muhammed Day" that people were against, there was really no point in that and it actually hurt the standing of free speech and other Western ideals in the Islamic world.

Unfortunately it wasn't a small amount. The UN and multiple large european countries basically went on the side of reactionaries, saying the cartoons were insensitive. They made contradictory statements that freedom of expression is great, but we should respect faith also, essentially victim blaming.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter...s-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy#States

That's not what Maher is saying. Maher is sayign that unless you openly say "go ahead and make fun of my religion, it's fine" you're not a moderate muslim. What?

No muslim should need to condemn the attacks because he's a muslim. If they do it it's because they feel for the victims as any person should.

And I'm going to stop right here, peace.

I actually agree that it's insulting to demand muslims answer for fundamentalists. I'm not one of those people who think moderates should "have to" speak up in defense of their religion.

I was just noting that there are lots of hypocrites and people who try to be centrist and not offend anyone, but we have to pick a side at some point, either in total defense of free speech, or in defense of partial censorship because of hurt feelings.

Yikes. That's one of the most hate filled post I've ever seen on the forum. You just completely disregarded anyone who has a belief that opposes yours. That's very inconsiderate.

It's ok to disregard backward ideologies that have been proven wrong.
 
This is a rather weak publication to use in support of your point. Japanese nationalism leading to WWII is responsible for military aggression, not Zen Buddhism, your point is pretty narrow.

Not to mention that if you're going to blame religion for Japan's military aggression, pointing to Shintoism is the more obvious example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Shinto

It's a major factor in the Yasukuni shrine controversy: During the war it was believed that if you died for the emperor you would be enshrined as a god. People prefer to target Buddhism for political reasons to claim that all religions can/do inspire violence.
 
You can't just jump in and say "No one is talking about X." He said I was referring to a filmmaker, no, I was refereeing to the cartoonist that was attacked for drawing The Prophet. I thought he died, at the time. But, the point of bringing up the incident was to illustrate that the muslim community is often speaking out, there just isn't much news/hits/clicks in it. But its not to say that it isn't happening, and muslims are silent, as Maher's tweet suggested.
Every person you quoted was just correcting the guy who said a Dane was Dutch. None of them were getting into the argument about who should denounce what, it was just to point out the person who claimed a Dane was killed was wrong.
 

commedieu

Banned
Thats the point. Them and ISIS are the exact copy of the very rolemodel every muslim believes to be the ideal man.

Is that you Bill? Surely, you can't appreciate that Islam is practiced without violence. But, this isn't the avenue for peace. The extremists are the problem, not the religion. As any religion can be used for evil, if you just read up enough. Especially Christians.

Every person you quoted was just correcting the guy who said a Dane was Dutch. None of them were getting into the argument about who should denounce what, it was just to point out the person who claimed a Dane was killed was wrong.

That person was me :\ I apologize.
 
In the Western world, we can openly make fun of our faith(s) and question the church, be critical towards the Vatican and ask justice to be enacted when a priest commits a crime.

Can the Muslim world do the same towards their clerics and religious leaders? hmmmm hmmmm
 
Yikes. That's one of the most hate filled post I've ever seen on the forum. You just completely disregarded anyone who has a belief that opposes yours. That's very inconsiderate.

Hate filled and pretty ignorant if he thinks religion will disappear in 500 years. Even if it's actively suppressed by the government, people will find ways to proselytize whatever they believe in.
 
I'm unsure how you get from this:

How about simply saying that they endorse drawings/cartoons/satire of their prophet or anything else related to the religion?

To this:

And that they don't endorse killing those that leave the religion?

One can say "hey, I don't like you making fun of the thing I believe in" without also saying "you deserve to die for making fun of the thing I believe."

You won't hear that from most, because a few hundred million believers don't agree. There is the issue.

Once again, people believe that because they haven't heard about the condemnation within this media bubble, that it doesn't exist.

Odd way to look at the world.

In the Western world, we can openly make fun of our faith(s) and question the church, be critical towards the Vatican and ask justice to be enacted when a priest commits a crime.

Can the Muslim world do the same towards their clerics and religious leaders? hmmmm hmmmm

And in the Western world people can get angry if you make fun of their faith. That's fine. Killing, not fine. People seem to have trouble understanding this line. And the Muslim world can probably do it just fine.
 
What are americans doing about Christian Ministries promoting Female circumcision in Africa? WAR WAR WAR, or.. "Well, its just some bad oranges here..."
I'm pretty sure Maher would be pretty upset about that too. Of course, it's not at the front of our minds because its not affecting us directly. Moreover, if the African countries that was occurring in had the same constitutional rights and media infrastructure we have, I'm sure their people would be saying the same things we are about the problems within the Islamic religion.
 

Mononoke

Banned
Which is something I agree with. You can't threaten people over your beliefs.

I don't like Maher. I think he's a bigot based on some of his past actions. But I do agree that a religious person should be okay with someone's right to live and criticize or make fun of your beliefs (emphasis on right to live. Also you don't have to be okay with the joke or what they are saying).. Even if you find it offensive or blasphemous. You could not endrose the joke. But someone having the right to live and be able to speak badly about your beliefs should be a given.

I think the issue he takes is that some religious people aren't okay with someone making fun of their religion. They might not be extremists that kill people. But they also think that someone being blasphemous brought it on themselves. It's the idea that your religious views can't be talked about without someone being met with violence that is crazy in a modern society.

Edit: I'm not 100% knowledgable on Islam. Is it blasphemous to depict their prophet? Or is that just social tradition? Or is it in the actual holy text? That is the issue with religious beliefs and them clashing with a modern society. Things like free speech or freedom to not hold the same religious views as others, might not be compatible with certain religious views.

Like if one were to really believe that depicting a prophet in image is a major crime, then that's the issue since someone doing so then is committing an ultimate sin for humanity and the belief is that they should be punished. So how does beliefs like that, supposed to work with a modern society and modern laws?

I feel like Jesus and the New Testament kind of lays the ground work that works well with a modern society. In that a lot of things that were once barbaric or acceptable, now get trumped by the New Testament. I'm an atheist though, so I'm probably talking nonsense.
 

olore

Member
I´m shocked and feel sick. is this what the world is coming to? i dread the day I have to try to explain to my daughters that the world can be a very dark and evil place.

One of the terrorists are 18 years old? Where in the hell did it all go wrong for him? For the other two? I´m thinking about what Anne Frank wrote, that she believed that all people are good at heart. I can´t fathom the cruelty shown by these fucking cowards. Are we as in the western world too lenient on these religious scumbags? They show no mercy and I´m starting to feel that we shouldn´t either.

The whole world should rally against these fucking terrorists
 
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