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[Lindsay]

He's broken, put him in the can't be fixed pile.

I agree PC has gone way too wrong but could you rephrase this? That sounds alil like overkill. Sure some people are broken but we need not go the route of a certain EU country (from what I heard anyway) in legalizing (or considering anyway) the murder of like babies born with birth defects and old people that aren't quite there anymore..

 

[Sullichin]

This is criminal. A 12 year old is not capable of understanding the consequences of murder. Whoever decided to try him as an adult should be jailed.

Are you kidding me? Were you like, retarded at age 12 or something?

 

[luxsol]

To everyone defending trying this 12 year old as an adult:

Can you imagine a circumstance where a 12 year should be legally allowed to have sex with an adult?

It just seems like there's a double standard here. The argument for age of consent laws has always been that a person under the age of 18 isn't old enough to understand the consequences of sex. I always assumed that was the reasoning for why we don't try children as adults for crimes like this as well.

And yet, if a 12 year old has sex and produces a child he or she faces the same consequences an adult would have. To raise the child, put it up for adoption, have an abortion, etc.
If a child does an "adult crime" he faces the same judgement adults can get... at least, that's what the court decided.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

I agree PC has gone way too wrong but could you rephrase this? That sounds alil like overkill. Sure some people are broken but we need not go the route of a certain EU country (from what I heard anyway) in legalizing (or considering anyway) the murder of like babies born with birth defects and old people that aren't quite there anymore..

I think I probably put it a bit better when I said "There is a line, he crossed it" some things you just don't do. Shooting your grandparents and burning the house down to conceal the crime is one of those things. Frankly it's beyond me that anyone can even sympathize with the guy.

I liken people like this a tumor, best way to deal with it is to remove it. Sometimes treatment just doesn't work.

 

[Tarazet]

Anyone who has the ability to obtain a gun, turn it on loved ones, and then later claim that they "deserved it", deserves absolutely no mercy whatsoever.

 

[Waychel]

Anyone who has the ability to obtain a gun, turn it on loved ones, and then later claim that they "deserved it", deserves absolutely no mercy whatsoever.

Wisest words authored in the course of this whole thread.

 

[hippie]

There is no way this little fucker should EVER get out of jail. 30 years?!? I'd pull the switch on the little pre-pubescent psycho and not even think twice about it.

 

[Flynn]

You people are depressing. This shit is never going to get fixed.

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

There is no way this little fucker should EVER get out of jail. 30 years?!? I'd pull the switch on the little pre-pubescent psycho and not even think twice about it.

That's cause you're a dumbass. Instead of taking the time to understand the problem so we can avoid future tragedies, let's just execute every fucker who kills another human being.

 

[hippie]

That's cause you're a dumbass. Instead of taking the time to understand the problem so we can avoid future tragedies, let's just execute every fucker who kills another human being.

"Understand the problem"? How about our culture as a whole is going down the shitter? This individual is beyond help and, no matter when he gets out of jail, he's going to be a menace to society? He needs to, at a minimum, be locked up for the remainder of his life.

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

"Understand the problem"? How about our culture as a whole is going down the shitter? This individual is beyond help and, no matter when he gets out of jail, he's going to be a menace to society? He needs to, at a minimum, be locked up for the remainder of his life.

Oh, he certainly needs to be locked away so he can get some help. If we can't understand people like this, there will only be more and more crimes similar to it in the future. There's no point in us pulling "the switch on the little pre-pubescent psycho and not even thinking twice about it" if good comes of the situation. People aren't naturally evil creatures, so when shit like this happens, we need to look at what made an individual take such drastic, disgusting actions. I don't see how killing helps the situation (expensive and brings no peace to the victims...in this case, his own family, who've forgiven him), and I don't see how multiple life sentences help us prevent future crimes either (expensive and offers no hope). So really, I have no answers. I just think pulling the plug on another human being, without second thought and regardless of how deranged and despicable their actions, is wrong and fruitless.

 

[Flynn]

My favorite part of this sad display is the nearly identical knee-jerk condemnation that people insist on spouting after something terrible happens.

Sure, murderers are bad. So are terrorists.

Why the need to stand up and scream to the world that not only do you dissaprove, but that you demand harsher punishments to all those who'd dare to befoul this perfect planet?

Does it make you feel better to be part of the most righteous club in town?

Punishment was too light.
Life in prison minimum. He killed 2 people and destroyed property.
And a 12 year old knows that killing is wrong. A 12 year old knows that burning down a house is wrong. There should be no hiding behind age. Jewish boys are considered adults when they hit what? 12? 13?

some people are just evil. Lock that fucker up and put it down to him losing the genetic lottery. Bad luck. At least nobody except prison guards have to deal with him now.

I'm mad this freak will be back on the streets when he's 45. Prolly earlier if he gets out on parole.

I doubt any circumstances excuse shooting your grandparents in the face with a shotgun and then burning their house down and then taking off when you are 12. I also think the defenders of this kid are an example of Political correctness gone way to far. He's broken, put him in the can't be fixed pile.

Anyone who has the ability to obtain a gun, turn it on loved ones, and then later claim that they "deserved it", deserves absolutely no mercy whatsoever.

Hey, if cut and dry helps you sleep better at night go nuts.

 

[Jotaro]

I hate people who put humor pills into youths troaths because their parents have no guts and are unable to educate a child to anything but a king-like child. This stuff is dangerous, it's much easier now in order to educate a child, to ram Ritalin, Zoloft or Ceroquel into his mouth with a television set as as baby-sitter, without explaining anything to the kid.

You've got to go when it all began, things like these, I don't believe spawn out of the blue for no reason.

 

[NLB2]

This all assumes that if he were raised correctly he would be broken. Otherwise, this is just a kid with a shitty childhood solving his problem the only way he knows how. The effects of his actions are something that he didn't actually think through which shows the level of maturity he's at. It's obvious he still has a juvenile's mentality, but he did an "adult crime"... whatever that means, considering the fact everyone over the age of 8 can commit these crimes.

Nah, its just pretty annoying. Its filled with equivacations.

King gives four different definitions for just and unjust laws in that essay -

A just law is a man-made code that squares with the moral law or the law of God. An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law.

To put it in the terms of St. Thomas Aquinas: An unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal law and natural law. Any law that uplifts human personality is just. Any law that degrades human personality is unjust.

An unjust law is a code that a numerical or power majority group compels a minority group to obey but does not make binding on itself. This is difference made legal. By the same token, a just law is a code that a majority compels a minority to follow and that it is willing to follow itself. This is sameness made legal.

A law is unjust if it is inflicted on a minority that, as a result of being denied the right to vote, had no part in enacting or devising the law.

Four very different definitions of the same phrases which King does not show any method of moving from one to another, not to mention there are plenty of problems with the definitions (such as the one I pointed out above, which isn't a retarded interpretation at all. I would like for the person who called it a retarded interpretation to show how it is a retarded interpretation).

 

[Tarazet]

Hey, if cut and dry helps you sleep better at night go nuts.

I feel a need to clarify my point. This kid got the right sentence. It's expensive to keep criminals behind bars for long extensive sentences, but I'm willing to pay my fair share of the tax burden so that we can still do it. We have a legal system in place, and although it is in some fundamental ways horribly flawed, its flexibility is a good thing in many cases. I'm not bothered by the decision to try this "child" as an adult, and I'm very happy that the Zoloft defense was ineffective, because this was not an innocent person who was victimized by forces beyond control. He fucked up badly enough that his life should be ruined.

The message is, you fuck up, then you fucked up. It wasn't the pills - it was you, bitch. Suck it up.

I like that.

 

[Flynn]

I feel a need to clarify my point. This kid got the right sentence. It's expensive to keep criminals behind bars for long extensive sentences, but I'm willing to pay my fair share of the tax burden so that we can still do it. We have a legal system in place, and although it is in some fundamental ways horribly flawed, its flexibility is a good thing in many cases. I'm not bothered by the decision to try this "child" as an adult, and I'm very happy that the Zoloft defense was ineffective, because this was not an innocent person who was victimized by forces beyond control. He fucked up badly enough that his life should be ruined.

The message is, you fuck up, then you fucked up. It wasn't the pills - it was you, bitch. Suck it up.

I like that.

Pray your children never fuck up.

 

[Piecake]

so kids who commit murder are adults, but kids who commit other serious crimes are not?

That sure makes a lot of sense.

the distinction between juvenile court and adult court is that kids go to juvenile court because they cannot tell the difference between right and wrong, cannot appreciate their actions, and are just emotionally and intellectually different from adults. If a 12 year-old can tell the difference between right and wrong then what is the point of the juvenile justice system? Shouldnt all criminals then be encarsirated in adult jail rather than trying to reform them through the juvenile justice system?

Personally, i think thats a load of crap, and doesnt make any sense. Kids are still developing at that age, and there at least needs to be an attempt at reform rather than ending the kids life at 12.

Youll probably say, oh the severity of the charge is what matters!! Well, the only reason why he got tired as an adult was that he was found to be able to tell the difference between right and wrong. If thats the case, cant other child offenders do that? And why would other child offenders have a greater chance at reforming their criminal ways than murderers? Thats the only reason why we would send kids through the juvenile justice system because we think their is a chance at reform. Kids at that age are still very impressionable. Its not like other child offendors would get jailed for the rest of their lifes like the murderers. They would get a jail time thats the same as an adults.

So yea, charging a kid, especially a 12 year-old kid, as an adult is a load of crap.

Oh yea, in case i wasnt clear. Are the people in favor of trying the child as an adult saying that a kid who commits murder is cannot reform, while another kid who commits another crime can? Why would a bank robber be more reformable than a murderer? I dont think that makes sense

So i think kids, especailly 12 year-old kids, deservee a chance at rehabilitation and a new life because they are impressionable and i think they can change their ways.

Sorry if this is rather confusing, im writing this rather late.

 

[RaymondCarver]

wow.


Either way, jail or mental hospital, that kid's going to have to be monitored for a few years if he is to function in regular society.

 

[Monk]

I actually take a full dosage of Zoloft. I actually have had those "chemically induced" acts. I shoved down 50 pills and nearly got myelf paralysed. You really do lose the ability to reason in those events. Not just to be able to tell what is right from wrong and what is rational, eg I swallowed those 50 pills because I got pissed off my brother lent a ps2 memory card.

A psychiatrist testified for the defense that the Zoloft was to blame for the killings, and a former Food and Drug Administration (news - web sites) official told the jury that the crime was an angry, rash, manic act "that was chemically induced."

 

[Waychel]

the distinction between juvenile court and adult court is that kids go to juvenile court because they cannot tell the difference between right and wrong, cannot appreciate their actions, and are just emotionally and intellectually different from adults. If a 12 year-old can tell the difference between right and wrong then what is the point of the juvenile justice system?

Law is an issue of circumstance. Although most minors are generally tried in juvenile court for their crimes, sometimes the nature, extent and severity of the crime can make them an exception in being tried as an adult. IMO, the fact that this kid shot both of his parents, torched the house and then sped off in their car is justification largely enough for him to be tried as an adult.

 

[Piecake]

Law is an issue of circumstance. Although most minors are generally tried in juvenile court for their crimes, sometimes the nature, extent and severity of the crime can make them an exception in being tried as an adult. IMO, the fact that this kid shot both of his parents, torched the house and then sped off in their car is justification largely enough for him to be tried as an adult.

So the severity of the crime makes them an adult? that makes no sense to me.

 

[Flynn]

So the severity of the crime makes them an adult? that makes no sense to me.

Exactly. And when adults steal candy or vandalize the boy's bathroom they should be treated as a minors.

 

[Waychel]

Does the severity of the crime make the child an adult? That depends.

However, I believe that a more pertinent question would be, "Does the severity of the crime make the child deserving (if not in need) of a longer sentencing?" My answer in opinion to that question would most certainly be yes.

Assuming that the court also happened to share this reasoning, then the choice to have the boy tried as an adult tends to make a lot more sense -- don't you think?

 

[Piecake]

Does the severity of the crime make the child an adult? That depends.

However, I believe that a more pertinent question would be, "Does the severity of the crime make the child deserving (if not in need) of a longer sentencing?" My answer in opinion to that question would most certainly be yes.

Assuming that the court also happened to share this reasoning, then the choice to have the boy tried as an adult tends to make a lot more sense -- don't you think?

Not to me, i understand why everyone wants this kid in jail for a long time. They think that the kid will not reform, and the severity of the crime warrants a longer sentence than the juvenile courts can dish out.

I disagree, i think that a kid, especially a child of 12, has a chance to reform, and we should give him that chance because i dont think its right to basically end that kids life at 12.

Plus, i really dont think a a 12 year-old really understands the concept of right and wrong. I think that kids only realize what they are doing is wrong, thanks to their parents punishment. They dont understand that the action is wrong, they just understand if they do that action they will be punished. The kid probably realized that he was going to be punished for what he did and tried to cover up the crime. THat does not neccessarily mean that he understands the concept of right and wrong

Furthermore, the kid is 12 and going through a lot of biological changes. Consequently, maybe the Zoloft really did affect him. Also, from that we really dont know his home situation. If he was abused by his guardians, then if he was taking out of that enviroment and given counciling then i think their would be a decent chance that he wouldnt do something like that again.

 

[Foreign Jackass]

This thread is pretty disturbing. I never knew Americans were so much without remorse at jailing a guy for a crime he did when he was 12 years old for 30 years. In Canada (our system is fucked on some points, but on this one, it beats the hell out of yours), the guy would be put in a special center (not some jail full of criminals who will beat the hell out of him and make him an even worse person) where he'd be followed by doctors and psychiatrists to try and help him get over his problems. What in fucking hell does it take for a 12 year old boy to kill both his grandparents? When I was 12, I didn't have ANY serious problem whatsoever. I'd just play with my NES.

You people are really quick on the trigger. I'm not typically angry against Americans, but you're now proving you just deserve that right-wing redneck heading your country towards bankruptcy and moral, social, and global failure.

 

[Mike]

This thread is pretty disturbing. I never knew Americans were so much without remorse at jailing a guy for a crime he did when he was 12 years old for 30 years. In Canada (our system is fucked on some points, but on this one, it beats the hell out of yours), the guy would be put in a special center (not some jail full of criminals who will beat the hell out of him and make him an even worse person) where he'd be followed by doctors and psychiatrists to try and help him get over his problems. What in fucking hell does it take for a 12 year old boy to kill both his grandparents? When I was 12, I didn't have ANY serious problem whatsoever. I'd just play with my NES.

You people are really quick on the trigger. I'm not typically angry against Americans, but you're now proving you just deserve that right-wing redneck heading your country towards bankruptcy and moral, social, and global failure.

IAWTP

 

[slayn]

Well that's an excellent justification for locking the fucker up actually. He obviously did know what he was doing. Besides, to all the defenders of this punk, don't you remember being 12? I do, and when I was stealing chocolate bars from the store I sure as shit knew that was wrong.

If he's to dumb to realise the consequences of his actions at 12, then lock him up anyway, he's to stupid to be loose.

I remember being 10 when I stole a pack of gum from the grocery store. Oh sure, I knew it was 'stealing,' and a 'crime' but I didn't know why you still shouldn't do it. I thought I was a stealth ninja being awesome.

So much so that after arriving at home I presented the gum to my parents and regaled them the tale of my awesome stealth abilities in action.

 

[Foreign Jackass]

If he's to dumb to realise the consequences of his actions at 12, then lock him up anyway, he's to stupid to be loose.

English isn't even my first language, but I suggest we jail up people who don't know the difference between "too" and "to". They're to stupid to be loose, to.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

I remember being 10 when I stole a pack of gum from the grocery store. Oh sure, I knew it was 'stealing,' and a 'crime' but I didn't know why you still shouldn't do it. I thought I was a stealth ninja being awesome.

So much so that after arriving at home I presented the gum to my parents and regaled them the tale of my awesome stealth abilities in action.

:lol

I bet you were properly educated after that though!

 

[Foreign Jackass]

:lol

I bet you were properly educated after that though!

Oh, sweet irony.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

English isn't even my first language, but I suggest we jail up people who don't know the difference between "too" and "to". They're to stupid to be loose, to.

OH FUCK

A typo on a message board. Let's point it out and feel good about ourselves without contributing.

Pray your children never fuck up.

Flynn what are you trying to get across here?

Why the need to stand up and scream to the world that not only do you dissaprove, but that you demand harsher punishments to all those who'd dare to befoul this perfect planet?

Does it make you feel better to be part of the most righteous club in town?

That's overstating quite a bit really. This kind of thing shouldn't happen at all and I think we are allowed to express frustration that people really are this stupid. Why do you need to stand up and scream for... what is it you're screaming for? What should happen to this kid in your mind?

 

[Tazznum1]

He knew he was up the creek, that is why he set the house on fire and drove away.


Now if you didn't think it was that bad and didn't know right from wrong or maybe what death entailed, you wouldn't run and torch the joint.

Can't have it both ways.


If you want to act like an adult, you'll be treated as an adult. I am so f'ing sick of people not taking responsibility for what they have done. No, it's not the poor misunderstood fella...it's that evil monster of a pill Zoloft.

Um...no, it's you.

 

[Minotauro]

OH FUCK

A typo on a message board. Let's point it out and feel good about ourselves without contributing.

Generally, people don't make the same typo twice in one statement.

 

[Tarazet]

Pray your children never fuck up.

Eh?

 

[slayn]

He knew he was up the creek, that is why he set the house on fire and drove away.


Now if you didn't think it was that bad and didn't know right from wrong or maybe what death entailed, you wouldn't run and torch the joint.

Can't have it both ways.


If you want to act like an adult, you'll be treated as an adult. I am so f'ing sick of people not taking responsibility for what they have done. No, it's not the poor misunderstood fella...it's that evil monster of a pill Zoloft.

Um...no, it's you.

first, check out monk's post above.

But also I would say a 12 year old can't conceive of the idea of taking responsibility for his actions.

But most importantly, I don't see how any overall good can come from putting him in jail for 30 years where he will not be treated kindly and come out a worse monster than he already was. Better to have sent him to a low security mental institution to study him and figure out why he did what he did. Keep him away from society until we understand him or he begins to 'truly' understand what he did and comes to regret it.

This kid needs help, not punishment.

 

[Tazznum1]

But he had enough thoughts in his head to get the f*ck out of there ASAP.


Again, you can't have it both ways.

 

[slayn]

you assume he thought, "Man, I need to get out of here before I get caught."

rather than, "oh shit... OH SHIT!!... !!!... What the hell is gong on?!?!" *run*

running is quite instictual

 

[Heezzi]

Imagine how disturbed he is going to be. The boy is about to become a bitch.

 

[Tazznum1]

He can't be drug induced one second and then have a clear thought (conveniently a second after shooting them) about "Oh $hit what is going on!" Drugs don't clear up in a fraction of a second.

 

[Flynn]

Flynn what are you trying to get across here?

I thought it was fairly obvious.

People never plan to have tragic things happen to them. People don't say to themselves, I'm going to raise a kid that's going to come out all fucked up and kill people.

What I was saying was the old saw "but for the grace of God go I."

But maybe I was expecting a bit much.

 

[slayn]

who ever said the oh shit and panicking wasn't drug induced? He was *unstable* Any flurry of things might have gone through his head at that time.

Another point is, long term thinking is a late development of the brain in growing up. When you are a child, no matter what you have been taught and learned, your brain is physically incapable of thinking about long term future consequences. Hell when I was that young, 5 minutes from now was a long ass time away.

The entire point is, we don't know what went through his head. I can understand either looking at it from the point of view of he should be helped rather than punished or this is an itneresting nuerilogical case that should be studied by professionals in a non threatening environment. I don't see how being put in jail moves towards either of those solutions. The only *reason* I see for putting him in jail is angry people wanting vengeance.

 

[Tarazet]

I thought it was fairly obvious.

People never plan to have tragic things happen to them. People don't say to themselves, I'm going to raise a kid that's going to come out all fucked up and kill people.

What I was saying was the old saw "but for the grace of God go I."

But maybe I was expecting a bit much.

That has jack shit to do with what I was saying. Did you reply to the wrong post?

 

[Deleted member 1235]

Generally, people don't make the same typo twice in one statement.

It's fixed, I take it from your absolute intolerance of my inability to grasp the difference between to and too TWO times in a sentence that you are on my side of the fence regarding how severe the punishment should be.

 

[Monk]

Now if you didn't think it was that bad and didn't know right from wrong or maybe what death entailed, you wouldn't run and torch the joint.

You run because of the punishment it entailed, not from knowing it was wrong. Fear of punishment and that feeling you get when you are about to do something wrong are two different things.

Like 30 mins after i took those pills, i collapsed in the shower and thopught i was going to be paralysed for life. I called my dad after that. It took me a full day to realise that killing yourself over a memory card is retarded, but i dint want to be paralysed for the rest of my life like 30 mins later.

 

[Foreign Jackass]

But he had enough thoughts in his head to get the f*ck out of there ASAP.


Again, you can't have it both ways.

Says who? I didn't realize you were a psychiatrist.

 

[Minotauro]

It's fixed, I take it from your absolute intolerance of my inability to grasp the difference between to and too TWO times in a sentence that you are on my side of the fence regarding how severe the punishment should be.

I didn't suggest that you be banned for ten days as punishment, did I? Shit, most likely, you would come back ten times worse, using double negatives and misusing "your".

By the way, good job with your use of "to", "too", and "two" in the above quote. I know you can improve if you just apply yourself. You can do it!

 

[Foreign Jackass]

It's fixed, I take it from your absolute intolerance of my inability to grasp the difference between to and too TWO times in a sentence that you are on my side of the fence regarding how severe the punishment should be.

It was a JOKE. How dumb can someone be, really?

 

[Flynn]

In response to:

That has jack shit to do with what I was saying. Did you reply to the wrong post?

You said:

The message is, you fuck up, then you fucked up. It wasn't the pills - it was you, bitch. Suck it up..

I said:

Pray your children never fuck up.

You said:

Eh?

He said:

Flynn what are you trying to get across here?

So I said:

I thought it was fairly obvious.

People never plan to have tragic things happen to them. People don't say to themselves, I'm going to raise a kid that's going to come out all fucked up and kill people.

What I was saying was the old saw "but for the grace of God go I."

But maybe I was expecting a bit much.

Get it?

 

[Deleted member 1235]

It was a JOKE. How dumb can someone be, really?

See the thread topic for answers to this question.

Oh and thanks for the inspiration Minotauro, everyday is a battle, but with a little less productive work and more posting on this board, I can do it! :lol

 

[Minotauro]

Oh and thanks for the inspiration Minotauro, everyday is a battle, but with a little less productive work and more posting on this board, I can do it! :lol

I believe in you.