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The 2nd Democratic National Primary Debate

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Piecake

Member
This happens with every single poll referenced. In all directions for all candidates. Any candidate would get shade for touting a poll conducted on behalf of a Super PAC created solely to defend them from attacks. Hillary isn't immune.

No it doesnt. The argument doesnt make sense at all for the person leading. The argument that makes sense for the leader is that a poll showing something completely different than every other poll and has his/her opponent in the lead would be branded an outlier, and a result of either a fluke or shit methodology. The difference is that that argument actually makes sense while 'skewed polls' does not.

I will admit that you or anyone can't be blamed for that 'skewed' polling argument for this debate right now. However, I have seen Bernie supporters on this forum use that argument, or use obvious poll outliers to show that Bernie is catching up to or leading Hilary. I will also admit that it is bad to conflate your position with those Bernie supporters, but I will hope you will also admit that their exists an echo chamber for Bernie supporters as well.
 
Yeah, but discouraged workers and marginally attached workers are unemployed too and not counted in U-3. I just think that if the government is going to declare its numbers, why not give us the full picture. It's pretty stupid to me that a large swath of unemployed people are left out of the official rate. Just let us take it on the chin and give us the real unemployment rate.

Because it's the most historically archived measure. How are you going to compare to the past when U-6 hadn't existed yet? Also, they all trend together anyways. U-6 is actually just slightly entered the region it was in the 90s and that economy had few complaints so it's not like it's hiding some big secret.
 

Wall

Member
I mean it's not really a might not so far as I'm aware - the firms were largely purer focused, one wasn't actually a bank, so enforced separation wouldn't really have done much - although if you're referring to the prior weakening of regulation and/or as a symbolic standpoint I could agree to an extent.

The problem that remains is that breaking apart investment and commercial arms of these large institutions doesn't mean they won't still be systemically significant, so restraining moral hazard isn't really achieved. If the goal is to "break up the banks" further beyond that then it's also never well specified how small exactly, and on what metric of size, that one would like to see the banking industry capped at. Nor is there acknowledgement of the practical impact that would have.

Meanwhile moral hazard wasn't really limited to the large institutions. Many smaller community banks were bailed out under the TARP program, and I believe they were less likely to actually manage their repayments under the program. The issue is the way that banks operate, all banks, large and small is inherently risky. (Article's proposed is also impractical, but interesting as a solution.)

More symbolic. The Glass-Steagal repeal was done based on the idea that banks could manage risk using computer models, so regulation wasn't needed. Bush II basically gutting all regulatory agencies certainly didn't help.

As for the bailouts and moral hazard, banks that engage in personal banking need to be bailed out so people don't lose their savings. We found that out during the depression. That is why we have the FDIC. A bank purely engaged in investment banking does not have the same requirement. Moreover, it would be desirable to let an investment bank fail if it goes bankrupt as a result of bad investments. Moral hazard would occur if we did not do that because investment banking firms would not be punished for their inefficiency. We can't let banks that engage in personal banking fail, so banks that engage in personal banking activities should be heavily regulated. Investment banks need to be less heavily regulated so they can take more risks, but in return we have to be prepared to let them fail.

Related to the cause of the financial crisis, I'm not a big fan of explanations that pin the problem all on one firm or one set of actors. The problem was systemic, and there really weren't any angles. As I alluded to above, the idea became widespread during the time period leading up to the crisis that newly developed computer models would allow banks to manage risk better than in the past, so systemic crashes such as what happened in 2008 wouldn't happen. That was strike one. Then, based on that misplaced confidence, the entire industry began creating and selling financial products to each other that simply didn't work. In the realm of personal banking, banks would give mortgages to people that the mortgage buyers had no hope of paying back. Those mortgages played a huge part in inflating a nationwide property bubble, which is ultimately what dragged the broader economy into the crisis. The industry also started selling products like mortgage backed securities and complicated insurance policies to each other. The mortgage backed securities were doomed by the mortgages that backed them. The insurance policies were just insane.

My point with all that is that it is impossible to isolate all of that to any one "bad actor", even though some firms might have been harder hit than others and therefore required a larger bailout or seemed to pose more systemic risk at the time of the crisis. To make an analogy: it was like if the car industry suddenly adopted some weird theory of chemistry or physics that caused them to create and use materials that fell apart in the rain, and those materials subsequently caused catastrophic failures in all of the autos that were sold. Whose fault would that be? The material suppliers who created the materials? The chemists who came up with the theories? The auto manufacturers for using the materials?
The problem is systemic.

The regulation passed after the financial crisis prevents the industry from writing those loans anymore, but there is still political pressure to do away with that regulation from the Republicans. A lot of that political pressure occurs because of donations coming from the finance industry. That speaks to continued political power of the finance industry, which persists partly because little was done after the financial crisis to address the moral hazard created by the mass bailouts. Would reinstating Glass Steagal address that moral hazard? I think it would help by weakening individual players within the industry. Officials in the Obama administration openly gave the size of some of the banks a reason for why more wasn't done, in contrast to past crises such as the S&L scandal in the 80's.

Ultimately, I take support for reinstating Glass-Steagal as a symbolic statement that more needs to be done to address the bad behavior that led to the crisis and the continuing political power of the finance industry. Such a pattern, by the way, has been noted by officials from the IMF as occurring after financial crises in other countries dating back to the Asian crises in 1998.


My Banking Professor in college believed a big issue in the US is that instead of having 5-6 (we'd want more probably) large national banks like Canada, we have all these small banks that are incredibly vulnerable to their local real estate market. If it goes bad, they're likely to fail and need to be bought out. But if it's part of a national bank, the other regions of the country should be able to prop it up.

This of course, would only help solve that specific problem, but I thought it a reasonable view given some of the incentive issues we have with the current FDIC system.

The variation I've seen on this view is that having a few large banks makes them easier to regulate. I think Krugman makes that point. Considering the property bubble in the 2000's leading up to the crisis occurred on a nationwide basis, and the national banks also were affected, I'm not sure having larger nationwide banks would have prevented the problems that occurred.

The problem I see in this country is the influence such powerful actors would have on our political system. That argument also doesn't address the desirability of separating investment banking from personal banking activities.
 

Piecake

Member
Not ignoring. The polls are in her favor. I just think there's enough data out there that you don't have to point to a poll paid for by a specific candidate's Super PAC.

This argument is rather conspiratorial. PPP isn't going conduct a shit and biased poll for Hilary just because she paid for it. That would not make any sense for PPP because it would ruin their brand name and hurt the interests of their business because no one would trust them then in the future, and their business requires that the public trusts them. They aren't going to risk that just because Clinton paid for one poll.

The only argument that doesnt reek of conspiracy is that Clinton paid for the poll because she was confident that it would show that she would win, and wanted it out immediately to set the tone or conversation of post debate coverage. PPP did the poll and that is what they found.
 

JustenP88

I earned 100 Gamerscore™ for collecting 300 widgets and thereby created Trump's America
but I will hope you will also admit that their exists an echo chamber for Bernie supporters as well.

Both groups do, indeed, have their 'memes' that they cling to. Nobody is exempt from bias.

Edit: per the above, the results of the poll are consistent with how most polls have gone this cycle. That is fine. I, as someone who considers campaign financing to be a huge issue, am inclined to notice when a poll is financed by a particular candidate's Super PAC. Money in politics was an issue for me before this election and it will continue be an issue throughout the entire process.

There are plenty of other polls Hillary supporters can turn to that would support their perception of her performance at the debate. I disagree with the majority opinions in those polls. I don't quite see how people arrived at their conclusions, but I understand the ball isn't always going to bounce my way.
 

Valhelm

contribute something
That's exactly how I felt too. I rolled my eyes when she played the gender card in her response, but I was completely taken aback when she played the 9/11 card too. 9/11 should not be mentioned in a answer to a question about campaign financing. Hillary was clearly trulying to deflect the question, and I can't fault her. The fact that the audience applauded her response was pretty embarrassing, but it shows that Hillary knows exactly what she's doing. Her response should be seen as a gaffe, but I expect that kind of rhetoric to become much more commonplace in the coming months.

It's certainly no coincidence that she says this the day after the Paris attacks.
 

Foffy

Banned
Guys, guys, I think the Bernie fans understand that Hillary won. They're just trying to come to grips with it because it conflicts with how they saw the debate.

It's not that big a deal; Bernie isn't a real threat. Now that the numerical facts are established, let us be gracious in victory.

Why do you act like the candidate you like is some sort of fucking product or something in a war?
 

Wall

Member
It doesn't surprise me that the majority of Democrats think Hillary won the debate. Most Democrats clearly view the world with a different set of eyes than I do. I do take solace in the fact that, up to now at least, the divide appears to be more generational than anything. That gives me some hope for the future.

Edit (to Foffy): I constantly wonder the same the thing.
 

NetMapel

Guilty White Male Mods Gave Me This Tag
While I didn't like Hillary using 911 as her first response to the campaign finance question, she was definitely called out on it with that Twitter question later. She responded more fully then and I thought that was a decent response. She's just trying to say that she's a senator from NY and have worked to help Wallstreet companies during time of need. Of course they'd throw some money behind her., along with many other small donators. The only thing remains to be seen is whether her comprehensive plan can make a big difference in better regulating the finance industry. She says the previous repealed Glass-Steagall is too weak, and that's what I'm most interested in knowing if her plan is tougher.
 

Saucy_XL

Banned
It doesn't surprise me that the majority of Democrats think Hillary won the debate. Most Democrats clearly view the world with a different set of eyes than I do. I do take solace in the fact that, up to now at least, the divide appears to be more generational than anything. That gives me some hope for the future.

Edit (to Foffy): I constantly wonder the same the thing.


She won the debate whether you're a democrat, Bernie supporter, or what. It is kind of sad tho that Bernie is the most progressive candidate out there though, cause what he says is pbarely even that radical.
 

JustenP88

I earned 100 Gamerscore™ for collecting 300 widgets and thereby created Trump's America
It's a legitimate question. This isn't a football game.

When you decide who you're going to vote for years before the election starts, the line between political election and sporting event starts to get really blurry.
 

UraMallas

Member
A debate and a nomination process are both competitions. Competitions have winners.

He's talking about fanaticism. It's a legit complaint to me. I see it way too much in politics for my tastes. It's much more pronounced in the republican v democrat level, though.
 

A Human Becoming

More than a Member
Guys, guys, I think the Bernie fans understand that Hillary won. They're just trying to come to grips with it because it conflicts with how they saw the debate.

It's not that big a deal; Bernie isn't a real threat. Now that the numerical facts are established, let us be gracious in victory.
You make some good points, but the condescending responses lessen your credibility. You're not the bigger person for them.
 

Piecake

Member
He's talking about fanaticism. It's a legit complaint to me. I see it way too much in politics for my tastes. It's much more pronounced in the republican v democrat level, though.

Then that is simply the pot calling the kettle black. I haven't seen many people in this thread who weren't emotionally invested and biased towards their candidate and condescending/insutling towards the other candidate and their supporters.
 

Makai

Member
People watch debates to root for their candidate. That's just how it is. There are few undecided viewers of the general debates.

 

Foffy

Banned
A debate and a nomination process are both competitions. Competitions have winners.

Nobody renounces that. But people act as if the candidate they're behind is some football team or a person in a TV contest. It's fanaticism and vapid.

Think about it: my candidate, my team. They're not fucking yours: you don't possess these things as objects, and people act in a way as if they do.

People running are not items. They're people, which you do not possess when you ride behind them.
 

Piecake

Member
Nobody renounces that. But people act as if the candidate they're behind is some football team or a person in a TV contest. It's fanaticism and vapid.

Think about it: my candidate, my team. They're not fucking yours: you don't possess these things as objects, and people act in a way as if they do.

I do hope you realize that by signaling out a Clinton supporter when there have been plenty of Bernie supporters guilty of that same charge in this thread that you are showing your own bias and your own team affiliation.
 
So, your argument is that because we can print our own money that we have unlimited money, and thus can afford everything we want? Do you think the government spends all this time developing a budget and a tax code because they like the paperwork?
Primarily, yeah...although 'just printing money' can have some adverse effects, they're not as limited as they would be if they were on a precious metals standard. I'm not suggesting that, though.

A federal budget is a priority statement and much political hay can be made by pulling pieces out of context and not acknowledging that the budget is not actually all that meaningful as regards funding government.
 

Foffy

Banned
I do hope you realize that by signaling out a Clinton supporter when there have been plenty of Bernie supporters guilty of that same charge in this thread that you are showing your own bias and your own team affiliation.

"My" team? I like his views, but he's not "my" candidate because I do not possess him. I don't look at him for standing on a team with me, he promotes ideas I dig. End of. And I don't act as if he "wins" something it's a win for me when it comes to these debates. I didn't do shit at the debate, and neither did the user I quoted, so it shouldn't be acted as if there was a "win" personally. Nobody has done fuck all here to warrant that attitude.

People who do this shit should be called out, and in particular, that horseshit caught my eye. Is it exclusive to Hillary? Of course not, I'm not mentally incapacitated to assume it's unique to a person. It's merely a phenomenon of garbage.

People who blindly stand behind a person as if they're a football team are children, no matter who the fuck it is. This is blind-as-fuck Democrats and blind-as-fuck anything else when this nonsense occurs.
 

Cerium

Member
My team? I like his views, but he's not "my" candidate because I do not possess him. I don't look at him for standing on a team with me, he promotes ideas I dig. End of.

People who do this shit should be called out, and in particular, that horseshit caught my eye. Is it exclusive to Hillary? Of course not, I'm not mentally incapacitated to assume it's unique to a person. It's merely a phenomenon of garbage.

People who blindly stand behind a person as if they're a football team are children, no matter who the fuck it is. This is blind-as-fuck Democrats and blind-as-fuck anything else when this nonsense occurs.
What a meltdown. Wow.
 
Guys, guys, I think the Bernie fans understand that Hillary won. They're just trying to come to grips with it because it conflicts with how they saw the debate.

It's not that big a deal; Bernie isn't a real threat. Now that the numerical facts are established, let us be gracious in victory.
I don't think I'll be so gracious when she loses the general. Indeed, I think I'll gloat.

I'm a leftist, not a Democrat.
 

Wall

Member
She won the debate whether you're a democrat, Bernie supporter, or what. It is kind of sad tho that Bernie is the most progressive candidate out there though, cause what he says is pbarely even that radical.

Well yeah, she has always been a good debater. She used to do well during the primary debates back in 2008. I'm not surprised she can win a debate according to debate club rules.

Its just that, our knowledge, values, and experiences shape our perceptions. For instance, based on what I know of the relationship the Clintons have had with the banking industry in New York dating back to 90's, Hillary Clinton's answers to that Wall Street question are absurd. That might sound conspiratorial to some, but that knowledge just comes to me from following politics for the past decade and half or so. In non-election contexts, remarking about the connection of the Clinton's to the banking industry would be completely banal, like saying water is wet. Other people might not even care. Apparently most don't.

She might have won the debate, but she didn't make me feel any better about voting for her, which I will in the general if she is the nominee.

When you decide who you're going to vote for years before the election starts, the line between political election and sporting event starts to get really blurry.

Apparently.

A debate and a nomination process are both competitions. Competitions have winners.

Are you from the Cobra Kai?
 

JustenP88

I earned 100 Gamerscore™ for collecting 300 widgets and thereby created Trump's America
On the blind allegiance to a candidate discussion... I'm leaning heavily towards Sanders. He's "my candidate" at the moment but, if he were to invoke 9/11 as a non-sequitur response in a debate, he would be well on his way to losing my support. I'm fond of many of his positions but pulling some bullshit straight out of the Giuliani and Christie playboooks would start to make me doubt him as the unashamed liberal candidate I'd be willing to die on a hill for.

I have serious questions about what Hillary would have to do to hurt her level of support. I just don't see her as the unflappable political dynamo that some do.
 
Nobody renounces that. But people act as if the candidate they're behind is some football team or a person in a TV contest. It's fanaticism and vapid.

Think about it: my candidate, my team. They're not fucking yours: you don't possess these things as objects, and people act in a way as if they do.

People running are not items. They're people, which you do not possess when you ride behind them.
The word "my" doesn't inherent denote that something is an object. For example, saying "my father". This does not mean I am calling my dad an object, and it does not mean that I "possess" him.
 

Foffy

Banned
The word "my" doesn't inherent denote that something is an object. For example, saying "my father". This does not mean I am calling my dad an object, and it does not mean that I "possess" him.

Have you seen how people act in these threads? It very much is a possessive trait they give to the candidates.

Again, the football team comparison is ideal, here. People act as if they have an active investment to the degree of a core role in what they're worshipping accomplishes, even if they have no real links to it at all. And then they use any victories or losses as "my victory" or "my loss," which is pedestrian at best.

The only people who win in debates that watch are those with issues they care about are spoken about, because they're the ones watching. None of that involves "my" person winning, and that's the shit summation you get almost always after debates.

Actually, a better word is probably used to describe this attitude: tribalism. It just goes to hilariously incompetent degrees.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
On the blind allegiance to a candidate discussion... I'm leaning heavily towards Sanders. He's "my candidate" at the moment but, if he were to invoke 9/11 as a non-sequitur response in a debate, he would be well on his way to losing my support. I'm fond of many of his positions but pulling some bullshit straight out of the Giuliani and Christie playboooks would start to make me doubt him as the unashamed liberal candidate I'd be willing to die on a hill for.

I have serious questions about what Hillary would have to do to hurt her level of support. I just don't see her as the unflappable political dynamo that some do.

She'd basically have to say the N-word on stage, in a white hood, in front of a burning cross. Keep in mind that she's a known quantity, she's been in the spotlight for so long that there isn't anyone who is undecided on her at this point. Opinions are set and it would take something monumental to upend them, if you hate her you hate her and if you like her you like her. She's essentially an incumbent right now, that's just how it is.
 

Hazmat

Member
Primarily, yeah...although 'just printing money' can have some adverse effects, they're not as limited as they would be if they were on a precious metals standard. I'm not suggesting that, though.

A federal budget is a priority statement and much political hay can be made by pulling pieces out of context and not acknowledging that the budget is not actually all that meaningful as regards funding government.

But that is what you're arguing. When someone says that something is too expensive and we can't afford it or could us the money better elsewhere, your argument is that the government can afford anything because it can print money.

All of the people quoting me are, at root, in response to me saying that the government providing money for people to go to college for people that need the money and not providing money for people who don't need it isn't some crazy idea. I'm really perplexed that there's such resistance to the idea that people in need will get aid and people not in need won't.
 

Piecake

Member
"My" team? I like his views, but he's not "my" candidate because I do not possess him. I don't look at him for standing on a team with me, he promotes ideas I dig. End of. And I don't act as if he "wins" something it's a win for me when it comes to these debates. I didn't do shit at the debate, and neither did the user I quoted, so it shouldn't be acted as if there was a "win" personally. Nobody has done fuck all here to warrant that attitude.

People who do this shit should be called out, and in particular, that horseshit caught my eye. Is it exclusive to Hillary? Of course not, I'm not mentally incapacitated to assume it's unique to a person. It's merely a phenomenon of garbage.

People who blindly stand behind a person as if they're a football team are children, no matter who the fuck it is. This is blind-as-fuck Democrats and blind-as-fuck anything else when this nonsense occurs.

I could be wrong because I obviously do not know what is going on in your head, but I find it hard to believe that a person who clearly favors the positions that Bernie holds and who I havent seen arguing with any other Bernie supporters calls out a Clinton supporter for being a team fanatic not out of bias.

There were plenty of ways to qualify your response by including examples from Bernie supporters or state that Bernie supporters do it to in your post. If you want to cultivate the superior, unbiased and above-the-fray attitude that you had going on in your past two posts, then you better make sure that you call a spade a spade consistently or else it is just going to look like some pretentious, partisan attack

Are you from the Cobra Kai?

I don't understand that reference.
 

JustenP88

I earned 100 Gamerscore™ for collecting 300 widgets and thereby created Trump's America
She'd basically have to say the N-word on stage, in a white hood, in front of a burning cross. Keep in mind that she's a known quantity, she's been in the spotlight for so long that there isn't anyone who is undecided on her at this point. Opinions are set and it would take something monumental to upend them, if you hate her you hate her and if you like her you like her. She's essentially an incumbent right now, that's just how it is.

See, I got dicked on a while back for insinuating that we're treating this primary as if an incumbent President was running for reelection. I was just another conspiracy theorizing Sanders supporter.

It is what it is and I realize that. I think there's a 99.9% chance Hillary is getting through. What concerns me the most is that Democrats would just as soon snuff out the more liberal candidate so they can start the Hillary 2016 celebration way early. If your candidate is really untouchable, then let the grumpy old liberal bang the drum for further left policies on the national stage for a while. Let him get young people excited about the process. I trust that he'll encourage them to stay involved even if he doesn't win the nomination.

I feel like we all loved the shit out of Bernie Sanders before the election. Would Elizabeth Warren be met with the same dismissive attitude if she were in Bernie's place?
 
But that is what you're arguing. When someone says that something is too expensive and we can't afford it or could us the money better elsewhere, your argument is that the government can afford anything because it can print money.

All of the people quoting me are, at root, in response to me saying that the government providing money for people to go to college for people that need the money and not providing money for people who don't need it isn't some crazy idea. I'm really perplexed that there's such resistance to the idea that people in need will get aid and people not in need won't.
It creates a rift and a wedge for resentment. It's part of the reason that there isn't means testing for social security - Roosevelt designed it that way on purpose.
 

Foffy

Banned
I could be wrong because I obviously do not know what is going on in your head, but I find it hard to believe that a person who clearly favors the positions that Bernie holds and who I havent seen arguing with any other Bernie supporters calls out a Clinton supporter for being a team fanatic not out of bias.

There were plenty of ways to qualify your response by including examples from Bernie supporters or state that Bernie supporters do it to in your post. If you want to cultivate the superior, unbiased and above-the-fray attitude that you had going on in your past two posts, then you better make sure that you call a spade a spade consistently or else it is just going to look like some pretentious, partisan attack

I have in various threads called out users who pulled the "if Bernie is going to lose, I won't vote" cards because that's a terrible reason to not vote. I'm also quite sure in this very thread I called Bernie an old man who isn't going to win, so it's not as if I'm behind some secret messiah and attacking anyone in the way of my political Pope.

He's also been fucking terrible on guns and on explaining democratic socialism to even an audience that would get it, if you wanted proof I'm not lining behind him blindly. The people who call out Clinton and the odd shit that everyone else ignores seem to be people who already aren't for her, which is my point. It's only them that speak of the issues she makes.

Who attacked her for the disgusting lies she gave to justify DOMA? It wasn't candidates already for her in the MSNBC thread, because they were the same people who said she answered every question well. Like, that becomes so walled garden it's crazy. This happens with Sanders' folk as well, which think that there really is a revolution going on, and his election will accomplish it. The revolution will need will not be founded in reason, and it never is for human beings.

The reason I called out the other user is because he/she was a repeat offender, from what I noticed. Please, if there are people who do it for Bernie and act the same way, they deserve the same shade.

Seriously, go look up the MSNBC thread. I did not watch this debate in full, but that one I did, and she dodged every fucking question like Neo from the Matrix. You had similar posters like the one in this thread who said she smoked it, somehow. By avoiding answers. It's these people that perplex me, because my issue isn't polls and who's winning there, it's the attitudes of people who blindly line up and act as if they're on the team, actually playing, and failing to acknowledge legitimate uh ohs along the way.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
See, I got dicked on a while back for insinuating that we're treating this primary as if an incumbent President was running for reelection. I was just another conspiracy theorizing Sanders supporter.

It is what it is and I realize that. I think there's a 99.9% chance Hillary is getting through. What concerns me the most is that Democrats would just as soon snuff out the more liberal candidate so they can start the Hillary 2016 celebration way early. If your candidate is really untouchable, then let the grumpy old liberal bang the drum for further left policies on the national stage for a while. Let him get young people excited about the process. I trust that he'll encourage them to stay involved even if he doesn't win the nomination.

I feel like we all loved the shit out of Bernie Sanders before the election. Would Elizabeth Warren be met with the same dismissive attitude if she were in Bernie's place?

Warren would be in a completely different situation than Bernie is right now. For one, she's an actual Democrat. You might say this doesn't matter, but it does to some people. Second, she's way more popular than Bernie ever was. People liked Bernie fine, but loved feels way too strong. Warren and Biden were probably the only two people who could serious challenge Hillary and neither of them are jumping in.

The problem that people have with his supporters, and this is coming from me now, is the more holier than thou attitude that you aren't really liberal unless you're feeling the Bern or that you just don't know Bernie well enough or that every poll is wrong and the media are pulling a fast one on the electorate. A lot of the Bernie supporters feel a lot like the Ron Paul supporters and that's a scary thing.
 

Xe4

Banned
I don't think I'll be so gracious when she loses the general. Indeed, I think I'll gloat.

I'm a leftist, not a Democrat.

You'll gloat because someone much, much worse than Hillary gets in. You're not a leftist or a democrat, you're an idiot. Don't call yourself a liberal if you aren't one. No liberal would rather have a republican win than Hillary out of spite.
 

Foffy

Banned
Warren would be in a completely different situation than Bernie is right now. For one, she's an actual Democrat. You might say this doesn't matter, but it does to some people. Second, she's way more popular than Bernie ever was. People liked Bernie fine, but loved feels way too strong. Warren and Biden were probably the only two people who could serious challenge Hillary and neither of them are jumping in.

The problem that people have with his supporters, and this is coming from me now, is the more holier than thou attitude that you aren't really liberal unless you're feeling the Bern or that you just don't know Bernie well enough or that every poll is wrong and the media are pulling a fast one on the electorate. A lot of the Bernie supporters feel a lot like the Ron Paul supporters and that's a scary thing.

That spin never made sense to me. If you say feeling the Bern as a joke meme, to be playful, okay. But there's no Bern to be felt; not enough people are resonating with him, for many, many reasons. There's no conspiracy about it, as if there's a trick. My view is the people who resonate with him see his big arguments - wanting a more socially democratic society like the rest of the developed world - to be too much of a minority at present to really create the revolution he wants. It's literally and only Millennials who are in line on that front, and it will be a long time before they're the major voter demographic. Those who deviate from him who are Millennials do so largely because they want a more pragmatic candidate in Hillary, for they want someone to try something in this toxic climate. The alternative is only Republicans, and your answers are literally regressive ideas. There's not a good way to mitigate through. Bernie cannot get away with anything, because what he wants and those who want it are not large enough, or the problems problematic enough to force it along.

But eventually his points will be forced along, but only through futility. The one credit to hardcore "Berniestans" is that they at least acknowledge the issues they're behind Bernie for will be legitimate, central issues in the 21st century for this country, at least to the degree Bernie wants them. This is why I think the system and what we get will be ran by the least among us: it will be held for oligarchs first, and everybody second. But, Sanders would never fix that alone, for that's another system that needs to collapse first.

In fact, that's Bernie's whole problem: what he wants can't happen in our destroyed frameworks, not even in patchwork. They have to be broken all the way down to the root, first, which will happen in our lifetimes, but it hasn't happened today.

Until this all literally "Berns" we're dealing with an always lesser-of-two-evils approach, because our system is that corroded, that binary, and that insoluble for sincere change.
 

Wall

Member
I think the vicarious sense of accomplishment is definitely analogous to sports. When people talk about the team they root for, they sometimes say things like "we" won. Of course that statement is ridiculous, but at least with sports its kind of expected. People willingly suspend their disbelief to take part in what basically amounts to emotional gambling over an outcome that ultimately doesn't affect anything else outside of the game being played.

Of course the outcomes of elections matter, but to treat the victory of just one candidate for one office, even one as important as the Presidency, as a personal victory is puzzling to me. For example, if Bernie Sanders were to somehow win the Presidency, that would be good for Bernie Sanders. He would have undoubtedly accomplished a life goal of his. In the current political environment, that would be good for me because the Republicans would be blocked from achieving their goals. Still, because I want policies I support, which are generally advanced by Democrats, to be implemented, in and of itself having a particular candidate win an office doesn't accomplish that much. In addition, its not like I agree with any particular candidate on everything, so the sense of vicarious victory becomes even more distended.

It really seems to me like conservatives/Republicans in this country organize around causes, while liberals/progressives/Democrats in this country organize around personalities. It is a weird phenomena, and it is very alarming.
 

Foffy

Banned
I think the vicarious sense of accomplishment is definitely analogous to sports. When people talk about the team they root for, they sometimes say things like "we" won. Of course that statement is ridiculous, but at least with sports its kind of expected. People willingly suspend their disbelief to take part in what basically amounts to emotional gambling over an outcome that ultimately doesn't affect anything else outside of the game being played.

Of course the outcomes of elections matter, but to treat the victory of just one candidate for one office, even one as important as the Presidency, as a personal victory is puzzling to me. For example, if Bernie Sanders were to somehow win the Presidency, that would be good for Bernie Sanders. He would have undoubtedly accomplished a life goal of his. In the current political environment, that would be good for me because the Republicans would be blocked from achieving their goals. Still, because I want policies I support, which are generally advanced by Democrats, to be implemented, in and of itself having a particular candidate win an office doesn't accomplish that much. In addition, its not like I agree with any particular candidate on everything, so the sense of vicarious victory becomes even more distended.

It really seems to me like conservatives/Republicans in this country organize around causes, while liberals/progressives/Democrats in this country organize around personalities. It is a weird phenomena, and it is very alarming.

I have no idea where, but I have literally heard this exact claim in the last 48 hours. And it seems very much true.

Unless I'm having deja vu.
 

Bronx-Man

Banned
That's going to be the next GOP debate from what I hear.

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Meowster

Member
I think the vicarious sense of accomplishment is definitely analogous to sports. When people talk about the team they root for, they sometimes say things like "we" won. Of course that statement is ridiculous, but at least with sports its kind of expected. People willingly suspend their disbelief to take part in what basically amounts to emotional gambling over an outcome that ultimately doesn't affect anything else outside of the game being played.

Of course the outcomes of elections matter, but to treat the victory of just one candidate for one office, even one as important as the Presidency, as a personal victory is puzzling to me. For example, if Bernie Sanders were to somehow win the Presidency, that would be good for Bernie Sanders. He would have undoubtedly accomplished a life goal of his. In the current political environment, that would be good for me because the Republicans would be blocked from achieving their goals. Still, because I want policies I support, which are generally advanced by Democrats, to be implemented, in and of itself having a particular candidate win an office doesn't accomplish that much. In addition, its not like I agree with any particular candidate on everything, so the sense of vicarious victory becomes even more distended.

It really seems to me like conservatives/Republicans in this country organize around causes, while liberals/progressives/Democrats in this country organize around personalities. It is a weird phenomena, and it is very alarming.
This isn't just a political/democrat phenomena, it's everywhere, from music, to movie stars, to sports. It's all the same thing.
 

JustenP88

I earned 100 Gamerscore™ for collecting 300 widgets and thereby created Trump's America
The problem that people have with his supporters, and this is coming from me now, is the more holier than thou attitude that you aren't really liberal unless you're feeling the Bern or that you just don't know Bernie well enough or that every poll is wrong and the media are pulling a fast one on the electorate. A lot of the Bernie supporters feel a lot like the Ron Paul supporters and that's a scary thing.

1. There is a clear name-recognition disparity between Hillary Clinton who is one of the most, if not the most, well-known politically active Democrats and Bernie Sanders.

2. I understand that being told by someone that they think candidate B is better than candidate A who you may happen to prefer can come across as offensive, but isn't that the whole point of this process?

3. There has been an extremely dismissive attitude toward the idea of anyone other than Hillary winning the nomination. Sanders fans are delusional and they don't understand the process. Hell, people are accusing Sanders, a senator with a history of success in getting things done, of not understanding the political process. That, to me, is some pretty significant arrogance.

I guess I just feel like the difference between the two sides in these regards are practically nonexistent. Each side is being smug and condescending, just about different things. I'm obviously not above it all but, on principle, I'm not too keen on this whole discussion being a predictahon. I'd rather us focus on the substance of what each candidate is saying as opposed to the likelihood of one candidate or the other winning.
 

Foffy

Banned
This isn't just a political/democrat phenomena, it's everywhere, from music, to movie stars, to sports. It's all the same thing.

Perhaps I am expecting too much in politics. It should be about points, not personhood. Maybe the problem is me here, not wanting to play that game as sincerely as others.
 
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