Support NeoGAF

[dead souls]

Why do I have a feeling that Katey Segal killed the wife just so she has a part in the series

She's just being consistent.

 

[choodi]

Looking forward to see how Sutter reacts to the critical and audience reaction. Should be fun.

I'm only here for the inevitable Sutter meltdown.

Should be fun watching him abuse people for not understanding his obvious genius.

 

[megamerican]

I wasn't feeling it the first hour but I got more engaged as it went along. It makes sense that they aired two episodes together. I actually like the cast, even the main. However, I wouldn't mind if they completely ripped out all the visions and the supernatural stuff.

But yeah, couldn't they have gone with less shitty

Spoiler

execution

CGI? I mean it was pretty comical. Some stuff looked great, but other stuff did look questionable which makes me wonder about how production values will hold up long term. I mean The Strain looks and feels noticeably cheaper in S2 and that's not a period show.

 

[Sober]

Oof, that was ... umm, okay. I might have a slightly higher tolerance for genre stuff but that shouldn't have been more than 60 minutes tops.

Absolutely painful. Every Sutter trope checked off the list.

• Arbitrary sex scene in the first five minutes
• Obligatory gay joke
• "Just one of the guys" minority character
• Villain made more villainous by being gay
• Katey Sagal
• Cameo by Sutter himself as a dark, mysterious character
• "Shocking" violence that only serves to desensitize the audience

...the list goes on.

While I don't think a gay antagonist might be a problem in general, I get the distinct impression that's not exactly something Sutter will pull off well/is known to do well? even if Stephen Moyer looks like the only one who bothered to show up? Kurt Sutter experts please help me out here if I'm wrong to think that way.

- They need to bring this Matthew Rhys disguise over to The Americans sometime next season.

Took me a second to realize it was him but that would make an amazing hobo disguise.

Also I sorta sorta faintly got vibes of the Spartacus pilot a few times? Am I having a stroke?

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

I'm only here for the inevitable Sutter meltdown.

Should be fun watching him abuse people for not understanding his obvious genius.

"I put a fucking Shakespeare quote at the end of the series, do you people still not understand?"
"Putting cum on Otto/myself was essential to the scene in which I just got raped."

 

[Walpurgis]

"I put a fucking Shakespeare quote at the end of the series, do you people still not understand?"
"Putting cum on Otto/myself was essential to the scene in which I just got raped."

I still have two seasons left of SoA...but damn, that's really....something.

 

[Funky Papa]

I don't think Sutter is so much into the "gay rape" trope as into the "just plain rape" one.

See: Gemma and Sons of Anarchy.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Reading this last page has convinced me to avoid anything this guy makes. Sounds like a douchey edgelord or something.

 

[Funky Papa]

That's not a bad description at all.

Sutter has created some of the best TV episodes ever, but as some people have pointed before, he needs a filter. He comes out as a real shitlord on Twitter and his shows tend to devolve into parodies when left to his own devices.

The Shield and the first couple of seasons of Sons of Anarchy were fantastic. Everything after that... eh. Sutter really needs somebody to tell him to chill his tits or even out his edgiest ideas

 

[Keen]

Well, that was pretty shit. I guess I'll give it to ep 3, but no real hope it will pick up.

Haven't seen SoA nor kept up with any Sutter controversy, but I loved the Shield so a bit disappointed.

That random torture scene was a bit much...

 

[choodi]

That's not a bad description at all.

Sutter has created some of the best TV episodes ever, but as some people have pointed before, he needs a filter. He comes out as a real shitlord on Twitter and his shows tend to devolve into parodies when left to his own devices.

The Shield and the first couple of seasons of Sons of Anarchy were fantastic. Everything after that... eh. Sutter really needs somebody to tell him to chill his tits or even out his edgiest ideas

I keep seeing Sutter get mentioned in relation to The Shield, but how much did he really have to do with the success of that show?

Spoiler

one of my favourites by the way

Surely Shawn Ryan is the one responsible for how good The Shield turned out, possibly in spite of Sutter and his stupidity.

 

[Funky Papa]

I keep seeing Sutter get mentioned in relation to The Shield, but how much did he really have to do with the success of that show?

Spoiler

one of my favourites by the way

Surely Shawn Ryan is the one responsible for how good The Shield turned out, possibly in spite of Sutter and his stupidity.

I really don't know, but watching Last Resort I get the impression that Ryan needs Sutter's nasty bite as much as Sutter needs Ryan's mellower approach. That was probably why The Shield was such an incredibly balanced show.

 

[metsallica]

Where the heck even is Shawn Ryan these days?

(after I wrote that I remembered that Google is on computers now, and found out he's working on a musical period drama with Baz Luhrmann for Netflix called "The Get Down." OK?! Where have I been?)

 

[Cornballer]

I really don't know, but watching Last Resort I get the impression that Ryan needs Sutter's nasty bite as much as Sutters needs Ryan's mellower approach. That was probably why The Shield was such an incredibly balanced show.

That's my impression, as well.

Here are a bunch of quotes about Sutter & Ryan working together. There's a fair bit more in Sepinwall's book.

Here

Yeah, you know, Kurt Sutter, he wrote some of our better episodes and he was always into the big, complicated, mythology stuff.

Here

Sepinwall: When you said you wanted to offer people something they couldn't see anywhere else -- is that what led to some of the more graphic imagery and storylines?

Shawn Ryan: I could blame Kurt Sutter for that stuff. Believe me, there's a lot more pitched, more explicit that we talked about in the room than we put on screen. But it really came from a place of me encouraging the writers, "Don't censor yourself. I'll be here to censor you if you go too far. Just try to come up with the best story, and if it requires us to do something that feels a little shocking, and we can justify and earn it, then we can do it." The writers probably relished it, and would push a little too far in early drafts, and I thought I had a pretty good head for pulling it back. Or we had a really cool idea and thought we had to build up to it and earn it.

Here

Sutter: I remember Shawn Ryan being fantastic in the room on The Shield, how he saw the whole script from beginning to end. I kind of see it in the room, but I don’t really see what will happen until those characters are talking in my head.

Here

Shawn Ryan, The Shield's showrunner, called him in for a meeting based on a West Wing spec and quickly hired him, if only because they'd talked about Sutter's past troubles with alcohol and drug addiction and Ryan realized that Sutter could bring "a really fantastic perspective" to his show's world. "He became a very, very valuable member of the team," says Ryan, "though he was definitely not the most beloved member. He wasn't always the nicest to people in the writers' room."

Here

NY Mag: What’s the most valuable thing you’ve learned, and from who?

Kurt Sutter: It’s hard to pin it down to specific lessons. I know that Shawn Ryan was my boss on The Shield, and he came in to run that show as a young … he was a co-producer prior to that and was still learning. It was interesting to be under his tutelage as he was learning. Shawn’s a very generous guy and incredibly patient, and I’m a fairly obsessive guy and can be volatile at times, and I’m sure if I were under the mentorship of anyone else, I might not have had the growth that I’ve had, but Shawn was able to see what my potential was and really manage to point me in the right direction.

Here

Sepinwall: When I was talking with Shawn Ryan about some of the more messed-up things on "The Shield," he said, "I could blame Kurt Sutter for that stuff."

Kurt Sutter: I will defend every one my twisted, f---ed-up pitches. I will prove to you why they work psychologically and organically, from

Spoiler

David (Aceveda) having to blow a guy to Jax and Tara having sex. That was one of those things, I saw that scene when I was writing the pilot, and I knew the first time they were going to have sex was four feet from a dead body.

And, yes, one of the things I lead my writers with is, "What's the obvious and linear narrative choice in any circumstance?" And then, "Let's never do that."

It doesn't mean, "Let's do something absurd that has no roots in the nature of the show," but to me, that (traditional) storytelling, people can go someplace else to watch. As a storyteller, I love to use my imagination, and that's what I hire writers to do. All that stuff is, from the burning off of the tattoo -- I'm not going to say that somebody told me one of those stories, but I can tell you it's a very real thing. For me, the psychological and emotional catharsis that happened when

Spoiler

Kohn was killed,

maybe it went too far, but to me, I bet you I can get you at least one or two psychologists that can back it up.

Sepinwall: Well, on "The Shield," Shawn always got the final say about what stayed in the scripts and what was too extreme. What's it like to be the guy who now gets to make that choice?

Kurt Sutter: I have writers and I trust a lot of my writers, and the network is very conscious of that, and they will always question what's too much and what's too violent, and I hear that. I do feel like, and I don't know that I would call it a signature of the show, but it's the kind of storytelling I love. I love doing stuff that's real but unexpected. Because of the nature of this world, a lot of times that does mean violence. If I was doing a hospital show, it probably would be something completely different. It's a storytelling device that I like and, what I do, I do well.

But trust me, there were other things that didn't make it into episodes, because I trusted somebody telling me , "That didn't work," or "That's too much," or "That's gratuitous.'"

Regarding his impact on The Shield, he has a writing credit on 19 of the 88 episodes of the show, including a few classics like "Of Mice and Lem". Wikipedia and IMDB.

 

[Cornballer]

Where the heck even is Shawn Ryan these days?

(after I wrote that I remembered that Google is on computers now, and found out he's working on a musical period drama with Baz Luhrmann for Netflix called "The Get Down." OK?! Where have I been?)

He also has Mad Dogs on Amazon plus he's working on that action-adventure time travel thing, but I have trouble keeping track of which ones he has a more hands on role with.

You know who had a lot of charisma yet never got credit for it as far as semi-recent FX goes? And seemed like he'd have none prior to the show airing (and in the early going)? Holt McCallany. Lights Out.

Agreed. I thought he was quite good on that show, and it's too bad he's typecast as a thug/gruff cop in a lot of things when he's seemingly capable of bringing a lot more to some roles.

 

[TheKingOfPain]

I didn't like the writing, the acting, the CGI. I liked the fact that it ended. Definitely bad first impression for this new show, I don't even know if I'm going to give it a second chance.

 

[crazygambit]

I can't get over the guy's grip on the sword on the picture in the OP. Tells me right away this show doesn't care at all about accuracy and there's no attention to detail.

This doesn't necessarily mean it's gonna be bad, but when you see the attention to detail on shows like Mr. Robot or Better Call Saul, sloppy stuff like that doesn't bode well for the show. Will still give it a try though.

 

[Deified Data]

Reading this last page has convinced me to avoid anything this guy makes. Sounds like a douchey edgelord or something.

That's honestly the most accurate description I can think of.

I really don't know, but watching Last Resort I get the impression that Ryan needs Sutter's nasty bite as much as Sutter needs Ryan's mellower approach. That was probably why The Shield was such an incredibly balanced show.

Exactly. Sutter has talent - I won't dispute that. He just needs someone to reign him in and tell him his ideas are stupid.

THE SHIELD SPOILERS:

Spoiler

"Hey guys let's kill Lem with a grenade."

"Sounds cool and unconventional!"

"Hey guys let's make Dutch a serial killer all along"

"Goddammit Kurt..."

Yes, Sutter actually pitched that last one.

 

[Alpende]

That's honestly the most accurate description I can think of.



Exactly. Sutter has talent - I won't dispute that. He just needs someone to reign him in and tell him his ideas are stupid.

THE SHIELD SPOILERS:

Spoiler

"Hey guys let's kill Lem with a grenade."

"Sounds cool and unconventional!"

"Hey guys let's make Dutch a serial killer all along"

"Goddammit Kurt..."

Yes, Sutter actually pitched that last one.

Haha, they were alluding to it in the show. Glad they didn't do it, would have been ridiculous.

 

[Funky Papa]

That's honestly the most accurate description I can think of.



Exactly. Sutter has talent - I won't dispute that. He just needs someone to reign him in and tell him his ideas are stupid.

THE SHIELD SPOILERS:

Spoiler

"Hey guys let's kill Lem with a grenade."

"Sounds cool and unconventional!"

"Hey guys let's make Dutch a serial killer all along"

"Goddammit Kurt..."

Yes, Sutter actually pitched that last one.

That exchange sums up the progression of Sons of Anarchy better than any recap.

Only that Sutter had nobody to tell him to shut his pie hole.

Right now I'm watching the last four episodes of SoA (I thought I dropped the show by the finale, I was so done with it, but I still had a few more episodes ahead) and the last couple of seasons are a total clusterfuck.

Spoiler

Juice's prison

subplot is like... dude.

2edgy4me

 

[metsallica]

He also has Mad Dogs on Amazon plus he's working on that action-adventure time travel thing, but I have trouble keeping track of which ones he has a more hands on role with.
Agreed. I thought he was quite good on that show, and it's too bad he's typecast as a thug/gruff cop in a lot of things when he's seemingly capable of bringing a lot more to some roles.

Wasn't aware of the Kripke thing, thanks, and I totally forgot Amazon was going ahead with Mad Dogs. Still need to check out the pilot... or pay attention to anything on Amazon, to be honest. I dug the few episodes of Transparent I watched but kind of fell off. I feel like Ryan is attached to a lot of failed pilots / projects that don't get off the ground, but that's the nature of the business I suppose. Still, I'd think he'd get a little more slack than that. Oh well. [At least] Two definite things coming to "air" give me stuff to look forward to.

And as far as Holt goes, I really thought he'd take off after Lights Out but he's only had a few bit parts here and there. Real shame. Glad at least a couple of us remember that show fondly.

 

[Funky Papa]

Wasn't aware of the Kripke thing, thanks, and I totally forgot Amazon was going ahead with Mad Dogs. Still need to check out the pilot... or pay attention to anything on Amazon, to be honest.

Get into The Man in the High Castle. The pilot was amazing (and ignore the book, it's not that good).

 

[metsallica]

They've said a ton of great stuff about it on Cordkillers so I've been wanting to. Will make a concerted effort to watch the pilot before season drops at the end of November.

 

[karmaforgotme]

I couldn't finish it, but I might come back to it Sunday. I made it until the

Spoiler

Gemma cut the cross in his face

. Honestly this might be one of the worst pilots I ever watched.

Also I sorta sorta faintly got vibes of the Spartacus pilot a few times? Am I having a stroke?

No. This show takes itself way too serious to be compared to the Spartacus pilot. I honestly didn't find the Spartacus pilot that bad as some. Yes the show got better as it went along, but the pilot wasn't a disaster like I found this one.

That's not a bad description at all.

Sutter has created some of the best TV episodes ever...

The Shield and the first couple of seasons of Sons of Anarchy were fantastic. Everything after that... eh. Sutter really needs somebody to tell him to chill his tits or even out his edgiest ideas

I watched all of SoA, and I don't think it was ever fantastic. The idea and mythology of the show was fantastic, but execution not so much. I did think there was a few fantastic episodes (even those were tainted by 'Sutterims"). SoA was never great or on the level of what HBO/AMC was doing. Even early Dexter was better than SoA.

 

[Nokagi]

I kinda enjoyed it. Will tune in again next week.

 

[Herbs]

meh

 

[RatskyWatsky]

You know who had a lot of charisma yet never got credit for it as far as semi-recent FX goes? And seemed like he'd have none prior to the show airing (and in the early going)? Holt McCallany. Lights Out.

He was pretty good, yeah. I liked Light's Out but I always forget it existed until someone brings it up.

 

[Bleepey]

That exchange sums up the progression of Sons of Anarchy better than any recap.

Only that Sutter had nobody to tell him to shut his pie hole.

Right now I'm watching the last four episodes of SoA (I thought I dropped the show by the finale, I was so done with it, but I still had a few more episodes ahead) and the last couple of seasons are a total clusterfuck.

Spoiler

Juice's prison

subplot is like... dude.

2edgy4me

My only beef with SOA where I thought shit was stupid was when they talked about Juice being mixed race and the potential problems that can bring. I can understand that, however, when this dude is one of the members:

I had to suspend my disbelief way more than I'd like. This dude clearly has some black in him. Whilst I can believe Juice was mixed race, I can't believe they'd give a shit where this dude has a black relative somewhere in his immediate past. I can only assume the only reason they didn't give it to him cos they didn't feel he was strong enough an actor.

 

[Funky Papa]

That was dumb as hell. Specially considering that Theo Rossi is of Italian descent and largely looks like your typical Mediterranean European fellow when off character. I mean.

Not to mention the fact that they deal with black gangs all the time.

 

[Troy]

Reading this last page has convinced me to avoid anything this guy makes. Sounds like a douchey edgelord or something.

Your mistake was listening to other people. SOA has issues from time to time, but overall it was a great show start to finish.

 

[dead souls]

He was pretty good, yeah. I liked Light's Out but I always forget it existed until someone brings it up.

Yeah, I wish Lights Out and Terriers had both gotten much longer runs.

Your mistake was listening to other people. SOA has issues from time to time, but overall it was a great show start to finish.

There is no possible universe in which the final season of SOA was great. Greatly disappointing? Sure. Greatly bloated running times? Yep. Greatly relieved when it was finally over and I could delete the season pass from my DVR? Absolutely.

 

[Deified Data]

Essential Sutter viewing is The Shield (which he was partially involved in) and the first 2 seasons of SoA, which are both great in my book. After that just pretend the show got cancelled.

 

[metsallica]

Yeah, I wish Lights Out and Terriers had both gotten much longer runs.

Don't we all... Oh Terriers...

Essential Sutter viewing is The Shield (which he was partially involved in) and the first 2 seasons of SoA, which are both great in my book. After that just pretend the show got cancelled.

That's what I did! Though only out of laziness, I just kind of "trailed off" with SOA.

 

[Mighty Chin]

Just watched. Quite Horrifying!

 

[Bleepey]

I must be the only person on GAF who didn't think Sutter shit the bed with the last season. The ending wasn't as good as The Shield but then again not much not named Scubs is, but it wasn't the worst ending I have seen.

 

[Deified Data]

Don't we all... Oh Terriers...

That's what I did! Though only out of laziness, I just kind of "trailed off" with SOA.

I might be tempted to include season 3 in there, despite the contrived "dey kidnapped mah soooon" storyline for it's excellent finale alone, which feels like a perfect way to end the series.

 

[Spikematic]

Was mediocre at best. Only thing that kept me watching was Bill from True Blood. He has awesome screen presence. Will still watch the next episode, who knows it may improve!

 

[Ikuu]

Not to mention the fact that they deal with black gangs all the time.

While the plot was handled poorly, pretty sure actual motorcycle gangs restrict membership based on race.

 

[Thebeardofknowledge]

Where the heck even is Shawn Ryan these days?

(after I wrote that I remembered that Google is on computers now, and found out he's working on a musical period drama with Baz Luhrmann for Netflix called "The Get Down." OK?! Where have I been?)

Handling the shield conversion to bluray

 

[Troy]

Yeah, I wish Lights Out and Terriers had both gotten much longer runs.


There is no possible universe in which the final season of SOA was great. Greatly disappointing? Sure. Greatly bloated running times? Yep. Greatly relieved when it was finally over and I could delete the season pass from my DVR? Absolutely.

Yeah, it was so bad you couldn't turn away for 6 years.

Like I said, don't listen to anyone. Form your own opinion. Like I did. It was great.

I must be the only person on GAF who didn't think Sutter shit the bed with the last season. The ending wasn't as good as The Shield but then again not much not named Scubs is, but it wasn't the worst ending I have seen.

You're not remotely alone. The last season was damn good.

 

[Liquidsnake]

This is sitting on my DVR. What did I miss? Is it as my English brethren would say shite?

 

[Deified Data]

This is sitting on my DVR. What did I miss? Is it as my English brethren would say shite?

Nondescript scruffy lead guy's family got slaughtered and his village burned so he snuck into the castle of the lord who did it under the guise of an executioner to seek revenge.

It took them 2 hours.

 

[Liquidsnake]

Nondescript scruffy lead guy's family got slaughtered and his village burned so he snuck into the castle of the lord who did it under the guise of an executioner to seek revenge.

It took them 2 hours.

High hopes? Or DOA?

 

[Deified Data]

High hopes? Or DOA?

It was a bit of a slog, but early reviews say it picks up on the next episode so it has my attention until then. It's worth a watch if you have a couple hours to kill, but I'm not terribly optimistic.

 

[choodi]

Your mistake was listening to other people. SOA has issues from time to time, but overall it was a great show start to finish.

Do not listen to this person.

 

[Herbs]

Nah, SoA was utter shit. Haha, such a steaming pile. That last shot, jesus the VFX. Makes sense really, the quality of that last shot was on par with the quality of the show.

 

[karmaforgotme]

Was mediocre at best. Only thing that kept me watching was Bill from True Blood. He has awesome screen presence. Will still watch the next episode, who knows it may improve!

That's 'Vampire Bill' to you!

I can't decide which one had the worst ending, True Blood, Dexter, or SoA? Because all 3 of them was very very bad, and made no logical sense.

 

[Pilgrimzero]

I started to like it once things got going about mid way.

The "twist"

Spoiler

(the knife)

was seen a million miles away.

I'll keep watching.

 

[aku:jiki]

I went in thinking "Goddamn Sutter, I can't believe I'm doing this shit", but was surprised to find myself not hating it. Yeah, the lead sucks so far and I like his sidekick much better and the plotting was a bit of a mess, but Stephen Moyer is always fun (even when TB started sucking) and I enjoyed the gore. I feel like a medieval show needs to be harsh as hell, at least one with a plot like this. Didn't hate Katey as much as I thought I would when they said "the slavic witch" and I realized that she was going to do an accent before she even spoke. At least Sutter gave her an age appropriate hair color this time.

My big complaint was that the plot beyond the pilot was pretty hard to grasp. It was a basic revenge story and then he got his revenge and...well, now what? Where are they going to go from here? Yes, there's a predictable battle between Moyer and boring lead and a stupid love plot between boring lead and "Lady Love" (because who cares that his beloved wife died like 30 minutes ago, let's just sit here and give each other "fuck me" looks), but how is that going to make any sense? What motivation does boring lead and sidekick have to stick around? Yes, he saw his wife's pendant but what motivation did he even have not to strike that fool down right there and then die himself? He was prepared to die fighting the baron... I dunno. I didn't hate the pilot but so far I don't really see how this can be a show.

 

[Dominican Power]

I went in thinking "Goddamn Sutter, I can't believe I'm doing this shit", but was surprised to find myself not hating it. Yeah, the lead sucks so far and I like his sidekick much better and the plotting was a bit of a mess, but Stephen Moyer is always fun (even when TB started sucking) and I enjoyed the gore. I feel like a medieval show needs to be harsh as hell, at least one with a plot like this. Didn't hate Katey as much as I thought I would when they said "the slavic witch" and I realized that she was going to do an accent before she even spoke. At least Sutter gave her an age appropriate hair color this time.

My big complaint was that the plot beyond the pilot was pretty hard to grasp. It was a basic revenge story and then he got his revenge and...well, now what? Where are they going to go from here? Yes, there's a predictable battle between Moyer and boring lead and a stupid love plot between boring lead and "Lady Love" (because who cares that his beloved wife died like 30 minutes ago, let's just sit here and give each other "fuck me" looks), but how is that going to make any sense? What motivation does boring lead and sidekick have to stick around? Yes, he saw his wife's pendant but what motivation did he even have not to strike that fool down right there and then die himself? He was prepared to die fighting the baron... I dunno. I didn't hate the pilot but so far I don't really see how this can be a show.

Because the witch told him that was not his fate and as did the angel in his dreams.