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[Blackace]

I really don't think they do. It's just that when a "P" or "B" comes after the "N" sound it makes it sound almost as if the "N" is actually an "M", but that doesn't mean people are saying it any different.

most the time you get the double when p or b is in a word, like ippai or whatever and you can't do that with n.. but the n sound becomes longer when you say it

 

[Hitokage]

I totally disagree with your sound change comment regarding ん when it's in the middle of a word.

I hate it when せんぱい is romanized as "Sempai", or なんば is romanized as "Namba". I don't know what's wrong with people's ears, but the ん does not turn into an "M" sound. It is most definitely pronounced as "Senpai" and "Nanba".

It's not that it's in the middle of the word, it's that it comes before the consonants "m", "b", or "p".

EDIT: (Just looked it up)
Also, before t, ch, ts, n, r, z, d, or j, it's not nasal, but otherwise it is. (Accent depending, of course)

"g" tends to be nasal in the middle of a word too.

 

[zoku88]

How about のんで? I tend to pronounce it like nomde. Is that incorrect? T_T

 

[Blackace]

How about のんで? I tend to pronounce it like nomde. Is that incorrect? T_T

yeah it should be n

 

[zoku88]

yeah it should be n

ITT: zoku fails hard.

T_T

 

[Deleted member 17706]

It's not that it's in the middle of the word, it's that it comes before the consonants "m", "b", or "p".

EDIT: (Just looked it up)
Also, before t, ch, ts, n, r, z, d, or j, it's not nasal, but otherwise it is.

I guess my argument is that there is nothing different about the way the "n" is pronounced no matter what sounds come after it. "P", "B", etc...-sounds are nasal, but that doesn't make the "N" nasal. If you have someone pronounce せんぱい and tell them to pause in between せん and ぱい, they are not going to pronounce せん as "Sem". This might be a poor example, but to me, the "N" sound never changes. The only thing that makes it sound as if it is an "M", is the fact that "P", and "B"-sounds are nasal and are spoken immediately after the "N" sound. This might create an illusion that the "N" becomes nasal too, but I am certain that people pronounce the せん in せんぱい the same way they pronounce it in せんせい.

 

[Blackace]

ITT: zoku fails hard.

T_T

not really

 

[Blackace]

I guess my argument is that there is nothing different about the way the "n" is pronounced no matter what sounds come after it. "P", "B", etc...-sounds are nasal, but that doesn't make the "N" nasal. If you have someone pronounce せんぱい and tell them to pause in between せん and ぱい, they are not going to pronounce せん as "Sem". This might be a poor example, but to me, the "N" sound never changes. The only thing that makes it sound as if it is an "M", is the fact that "P", and "B"-sounds are nasal and are spoken immediately after the "N" sound. This might create an illusion that the "N" becomes nasal too, but I am certain that people pronounce the せん in せんぱい the same way they pronounce it in せんせい.

I am pretty certain they don't. I mean it isn't like 100% of the people say the exact same way. but I am certain they are different sounds

 

[Hitokage]

A nasal "n" isn't the same as "m".

Again, I wouldn't be surprised if various Japanese accents disagreed on this subject.

 

[YYZ]

What do you guys mean by nasal and non-nasal?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

A nasal "n" isn't the same as "m".

Again, I wouldn't be surprised if various Japanese accents disagreed on this subject.

I admit I'm no expert on nasal sounds, but as long as people don't think that the "N" before "P" and "B"-sounds suddenly turns into an "M" then I am fine.

 

[zoku88]

What do you guys mean by nasal and non-nasal?

Nasal is a sound that you kinda make by using your nose (?) I don't describe it very well, but it's pretty prominent in French.

 

[Hitokage]

What do you guys mean by nasal and non-nasal?

One example is the "n" in "Sing".

Edit:
Aha...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_phonology#Moraic_nasal

 

[lupin23rd]

I started picking up a few manga series in Japanese (and left them all at home now that I'm in Japan for 3 months), if you guys are going to rip through a book or magazine, how long before you usually say "that's enough" for the day?

I was going through City Hunter and found a lot of words I didn't know, my book of vocab was getting pretty full and it was hard to go back over what I "learned".

Also, in some case (like my awesome Getter Robo manga or playing Super Robot Wars), the vocab I learn is new but kinda useless - how often do you use "hangeki" (counterattack) in real-world vocab?

Going to head over to Book-Off today and see what new series I can start with.

Also subscribed to two Japanese gaming podcasts so we'll see how that goes.

I really wish my JLPT results would arrive (I moved the week they were sent out and I guess my forwarding setup missed this one), I need to know if I am still gunning for JLPT 2 or ramping up for level 1.

 

[Kilrogg]

There's a book that's worth buying for those of you who are into literature but are not good enough to read in Japanese yet. It's called Breaking into Japanese Literature by Giles Murray. It contains 7 short stories by Natsume Sôseki and Akutagawa Ryûnosuke, but the book is made in such a way that, on the bottom part of each page, you've got every single word of vocabulary, with both the reading and the meaning. Furthermore, if a kanji is also featured in the Kanji Learner's Dictionary, the book gives you its number, so that you can easily find it. The book covers roughly 1000 kanji.

The original Japanese text is on the left page, and the translation is on the right. It's a semi-literal translation, i.e. literal enough that you can compare it to the original text, yet literary enough that it's readable.

The best part of it is that you can download mp3 files of those stories for free on the website. They're all read by professional actors.

I have two gripes with the book though: since the stories are written by non-contemporary authors — and/or because their style is literary, obviously —, the kanji used are not necessarily those you would find and use in today's everyday life. For instance, 目 (me, "eye") is replaced by 眼. Same thing goes for 会う (au, "to meet/see"), replaced by 逢う. Also, the authors sometimes change the kanji of a word if they use it more than once in their texts. I've only been able to read one of the stories for now, but I've already encountered はなびら written in two different ways, first with one kanji, then with 花 + another kanji. It can be confusing if you know far less than 1000 kanji like me.

All in all though, I recommend it, if only for getting a taste of the literary language and learn to read elaborate sentences fast with the right tone and intonation (thanks to the mp3s).

So much for the propaganda .

 

[RevenantKioku]

As far as "how much" well as of late I've been trying to do so much it hurts.
I've been reading 2ch using a reader to make it less annoying on the eyes. JEDict lets me have a plugin so I can highlight a word and rightclick to search it. It's not perfect but helps. I find rikaichan annoying because I don't want everything to go loopy when I hover over it, and I don't want to use firefox either, haha.

 

[tnw]

I can think of much more productive ways to study japanese than reading 2chan.

Many many ways.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I started picking up a few manga series in Japanese (and left them all at home now that I'm in Japan for 3 months), if you guys are going to rip through a book or magazine, how long before you usually say "that's enough" for the day?

I was going through City Hunter and found a lot of words I didn't know, my book of vocab was getting pretty full and it was hard to go back over what I "learned".

Also, in some case (like my awesome Getter Robo manga or playing Super Robot Wars), the vocab I learn is new but kinda useless - how often do you use "hangeki" (counterattack) in real-world vocab?
Going to head over to Book-Off today and see what new series I can start with.

Also subscribed to two Japanese gaming podcasts so we'll see how that goes.

I really wish my JLPT results would arrive (I moved the week they were sent out and I guess my forwarding setup missed this one), I need to know if I am still gunning for JLPT 2 or ramping up for level 1.

It's used quite regularly (depending on the situation, of course), and you will hear it frequently on television, especially when people are talking about sports matches.

I can think of much more productive ways to study japanese than reading 2chan.

Many many ways.

I wouldn't downplay the educational value that 2ch, and other message boards for that matter, have for students of Japanese. It's a great place to learn Japanese-Internet lingo, casual Japanese, dark humor, etc... It would probably be a good idea to have a good understanding of the language and be able to distinguish between what is normal Japanese and what is net-lingo before reading 2ch and other message boards, though.

 

[YYZ]

I finished the kana book, but I'm still having trouble with some katakana, some of them just don't relate to anything. I love Heisig's tips for remembering the hiragana, well most of them anyway. Any tips or is it just practice and repetition from here on out?

Also is there anything else I should look over before getting into the kanji? Such as numbers (how many), days of the week, months, colours, directions?

 

[Zoe]

I wouldn't downplay the educational value that 2ch, and other message boards for that matter, have for students of Japanese. It's a great place to learn Japanese-Internet lingo, casual Japanese, dark humor, etc...

ξぅτ"￡йё

 

[bigmit3737]

When you say "I want to swim"...

Unless there is a mistake, has ga in it according to the video, but it sounds as if they are saying Ma, instead of ga.

Can someone clarify this?


Just bought my first Japanese Manga...going to take me a looooooong time to read.

 

[Zoe]

Which kind of "want" are you talking about?

およぎたい
およぐことがほしい

 

[sprsk]

およぐごとがほしい？
whaaat?

およぐことがしたい would be okay I guess the meaning is a little different, but really およぎたい is the best.

 

[Zoe]

およぐごとがほしい？
whaaat?

およぐことがしたい would be okay I guess the meaning is a little different, but really およぎたい is the best.

Whoops, I meant to say したい.

 

[Blackace]

およぐごとがほしい？
whaaat?

およぐことがしたい would be okay I guess the meaning is a little different, but really およぎたい is the best.

I was about to post that.. you can use ほしい　for when you want someone else to do something tho...

 

[RevenantKioku]

I can think of much more productive ways to study japanese than reading 2chan.

Many many ways.

Well, I'm trying to transition my GAF addiction to something where I'm reading Japanese. News sites just don't cut it as much. "/

 

[Zoe]

Well, I'm trying to transition my GAF addiction to something where I'm reading Japanese. News sites just don't cut it as much. "/

How about blogs? There are a bunch of interesting celebrity blogs on ameblo.

 

[Blackace]

Well, I'm trying to transition my GAF addiction to something where I'm reading Japanese. News sites just don't cut it as much. "/

at the very least you will learn how to make ascii cats

 

[RevenantKioku]

at the very least you will learn how to make ascii cats

I know! And bitches love ascii cats.

 

[sprsk]

2ch is deeeeeeefinitely not a good place to learn Japanese.

 

[Blackace]

2ch is deeeeeeefinitely not a good place to learn Japanese.

it would be like learning English here..

 

[RevenantKioku]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not even using it as my #5 source of things Japanese. I just read so much GAF I figure I've gotta feed that addiction to something similar.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

It really depends on the forum and thread as well. I have participated in some intelligent discussions on 2ch, although they can be rather rare.

 

[Shouta]

Not too different from GAF in that regard Zefah. I find 2ch pretty dreadful myself. If we thought we were a bunch of slimeball geeks, 2ch can be a lot worse than us at times.

 

[Kilrogg]

I was about to post that.. you can use ほしい　for when you want someone else to do something tho...

What about when you want to say "I want to understand" though? I have a Japanese correspondent, but I found myself wondering how I should phrase "I want to understand sth" in Japanese yesterday. For some reason, 分かりたい seemed a bit odd. Actually, I think it doesn't exist, does it? Anyway, in the end, I opted for 分かって欲しい, but judging by what you said, I'm afraid she might think I want HER to understand something. So... How am I supposed to say "I want to understand sth"?

 

[tnw]

I know! And bitches love ascii cats.

how about techno singing ascii cats? NOMA NOMA YEAY!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_PHT1m8cg0&NR=1

I actually saw this playing at Bic Camera 2 or so years ago. So great!

For easy Japanese, I just watch warai bangumi (which I'm ashamed to admit make me laugh a little too much).

I think 2ch is a little advanced for you. You don't want to be blurting out 2ch-isms when you don't know better. It's like when everyone used to smirk when ALTs would speak dialect without knowing the difference 'taberu to?' :lol


edit: wakattehoshii means I want YOU to understand. You could just say shiritai. or maybe rikai shitai. naw just stick with shiritai.

They all sound kind of weird. I think they would just find different ways of saying that idea. Very little directly translates in Japanese!

 

[Kilrogg]

edit: wakattehoshii means I want YOU to understand. You could just say shiritai. or maybe rikai shitai. naw just stick with shiritai.

They all sound kind of weird. I think they would just find different ways of saying that idea. Very little directly translates in Japanese!

Yup, you're right, thanks. On second thought, since the sentence was "IF I want to understand", I should have said 分かるように, that's much shorter, simpler and it sound more Japanese I guess. How silly of me!

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Yup, you're right, thanks. On second thought, since the sentence was "IF I want to understand", I should have said 分かるように, that's much shorter, simpler and it sound more Japanese I guess. How silly of me!

分かりたい　is definitely usable, and is used, but it does sound a bit odd so most people would probably say 分かるようになりたい. There is nothing really wrong with 分かりたい, and Japanese people will definitely understand it if you use it, but it's just not used very often.

分かるようになりたい　is probably a more "natural sounding" way to say 分かりたい.

It really depends on the context as well. It would help if you could post the actual sentence you are trying to say in Japanese.

 

[tnw]

Yup, you're right, thanks. On second thought, since the sentence was "IF I want to understand"

that could be a lot of things

wakattehoshii

wakaruyou ni natte hoshii

wakatte hoshikereba

wakatte hoshii nara

etc.

 

[YYZ]

Any sites out there that provide the pronunciations of the general-use kanji? The pronunciations aren't in Heisig's books.

I'm not sure if I should follow his book to the T or not. I find it weird not learning how to pronounce the kanji as I learn it.

This is what Heisig says about separation of learning the meaning and how to write; and learning how to speak:

This brings us to our second question. The reasons for isolating the writing
of the kanji from their pronunciation follow more or less as a matter of course
from what has been said. The reading and writing of the characters are taught
simultaneously on the grounds that one is useless without the other. This only
begs the basic question of why they could not better, and more quickly, be
taught one after the other, concentrating on what is for the foreigner the simpler
task, writing, and later turning to the more complicated, the reading.

One has only to look at the progress of non-Japanese raised with kanji to
see the logic of the approach. When Chinese adult students come to the study
of Japanese, they already know what the kanji mean and how to write them.
They have only to learn how to read them. The progress they make in comparison
with their Western counterparts is usually attributed to their being
“Oriental.” In fact, Chinese grammar and pronunciation have about as much
to do with Japanese as English does. It is their knowledge of the meaning and
writing of the kanji that gives the Chinese the decisive edge. My idea was simply
to learn from this common experience and give the kanji an English reading.
Having learned to write the kanji in this way—which, I repeat, is the most
logical and rational part of the study of Japanese—one is in a much better position
to concentrate on the often irrational and unprincipled problem of learning
to pronounce them.

In a word, it is hard to imagine a less efficient way of learning the reading
and writing of the kanji than to study them simultaneously. And yet this is the
method that all Japanese textbooks and courses follow. The bias is too deeply
ingrained to be rooted out by anything but experience to the contrary.

 

[Shirokun]

Alright, time for another question!

What is the difference in usage for 少し and　少ない? They both seem to mean relatively the same thing("a little" or "few") right?

いつも助けてくれてありがとう！

 

[Smiles and Cries]

Alright, time for another question!

What is the difference in usage for 少し and　少ない? They both seem to mean relatively the same thing("a little" or "few") right?

いつも助けてくれてありがとう！

stop showing off, I got all the books but can't even read anything yet T-T

 

[tnw]

I have two gripes with the book though: since the stories are written by non-contemporary authors — and/or because their style is literary, obviously —, the kanji used are not necessarily those you would find and use in today's everyday life. For instance, 目 (me, "eye") is replaced by 眼. Same thing goes for 会う (au, "to meet/see"), replaced by 逢う.

These kanji are used all the time even today.

Japanese has a lot of 'doubled' kanji. there is au 'to meet', and the other 'au' has a more romantic meaning. You see this kind of thing all the time (can't think of an example right now, but 'au' is a perfect one). The second 'au' can also mean tryst and other similar but ambiguous overtones

sukoshi and sukunai: sukushi means a little and is an adjective and you wouldn't use it by itself. An amount wouldn't be sukoshi, it would be sukunai. sukoshi is similar to chotto in its use. sukunai is similar to ooi (and is the opposite of)in its use.

 

[Zoe]

Alright, time for another question!

What is the difference in usage for 少し and　少ない? They both seem to mean relatively the same thing("a little" or "few") right?

First of all, 少し is an adverb, 少ない is an adjective.

少ない also feels like it has a negative connotation to it, IMO.

 

[angelfly]

I have a quick question. I've tried my dictionaries and checking online but I just want to be sure. Does 非常勤大学生 mean part-time college student. Two of my dictionaries say 非常勤 indicates doing something part-time and another says it refers to part-time work. Is there another way to refer to doing something part-time?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

非常勤 is usually used for someone who is just temporarily filling a position, kind of like an adjunct, or someone who lectures part time at a University, for example. You definitely wouldn't see 非常勤大学生, because 大学生 isn't a job. You could say 非常勤講師　（ひじょうきんこうし） to talk about a part-time teacher / lecturer, though.

Edit:

I honestly have never met anyone in Japan who is just going to school part-time. I'm not sure if you're from the U.S. or not, but the Japanese University system is generally a lot less flexible than that of U.S. Universities. You generally decide what you are going to do before entering a University and most people do exactly 4 years and graduate. Sure there are some people who fail / drop courses mid-way, change the majors, etc... but it seems far more rare, in my experience, than it is in the U.S.

Therefore the concept of "part-time student" is not a very familiar one in Japan. Most people are either full-time students or they aren't students at all. A full-time registered student is usually called a 正規の学生　（せいきのがくせい）, or "official student", so you could say that you are a 非正規の学生 (ひせいきのがくせい）, or "unofficial student". Another word you could use is 片手間学生 (かたてまがくせい）, but this has a meaning closer to just "taking classes in one's spare time". Either way, you are probably going to end up needing to explain yourself if you want to say you are a part-time student, because most people in Japan will not be familiar with the concept.

 

[hellclerk]

quick question for those who can answer:

would Light Novels be a good way to gain ground in learning Japanese and Kanji? as far as i've been told, light novels use furigana and therefore would theoretically be easier for me to read as long as i had a good knowlege of hiragana, so i learn Japanese and develop knowledge of kanji all in the same go. i'm currently enrolled in Japanese classes at the University i'm attending, so i'm already on a certain track for learning, though i would much rather develop an eloquence in Japanese as i did in English, through massive amounts of reading and watching television and movies. i'm already on the move to do this, but i was wondering if anyone had any opinions on the matter.

 

[rykomatsu]

quick question for those who can answer:

would Light Novels be a good way to gain ground in learning Japanese and Kanji? as far as i've been told, light novels use furigana and therefore would theoretically be easier for me to read as long as i had a good knowlege of hiragana, so i learn Japanese and develop knowledge of kanji all in the same go. i'm currently enrolled in Japanese classes at the University i'm attending, so i'm already on a certain track for learning, though i would much rather develop an eloquence in Japanese as i did in English, through massive amounts of reading and watching television and movies. i'm already on the move to do this, but i was wondering if anyone had any opinions on the matter.

Would depend on the light novel. Something that introduces a lot of universe specific terminology (like Kyouran Kazoku Nikki) would be terrible...I would even say Shana's bordering on something unrecommended, even though they're easy reads.

You're probably just better off reading something written in standard Japanese rather than various dialects of Japanese.

 

[hellclerk]

Would depend on the light novel. Something that introduces a lot of universe specific terminology (like Kyouran Kazoku Nikki) would be terrible...I would even say Shana's bordering on something unrecommended, even though they're easy reads.

You're probably just better off reading something written in standard Japanese rather than various dialects of Japanese.

well, i'm starting out with Kino no Tabi, so it'll be bordering on that line, though Haruhi and most certainly Gakuen Kino are defininately a couple of titles i'll be getting later on.

any series you know about that might me decent?

 

[angelfly]

非常勤 is usually used for someone who is just temporarily filling a position, kind of like an adjunct, or someone who lectures part time at a University, for example. You definitely wouldn't see 非常勤大学生, because 大学生 isn't a job. You could say 非常勤講師　（ひじょうきんこうし） to talk about a part-time teacher / lecturer, though.

Edit:

I honestly have never met anyone in Japan who is just going to school part-time. I'm not sure if you're from the U.S. or not, but the Japanese University system is generally a lot less flexible than that of U.S. Universities. You generally decide what you are going to do before entering a University and most people do exactly 4 years and graduate. Sure there are some people who fail / drop courses mid-way, change the majors, etc... but it seems far more rare, in my experience, than it is in the U.S.

Therefore the concept of "part-time student" is not a very familiar one in Japan. Most people are either full-time students or they aren't students at all. A full-time registered student is usually called a 正規の学生　（せいきのがくせい）, or "official student", so you could say that you are a 非正規の学生 (ひせいきのがくせい）, or "unofficial student". Another word you could use is 片手間学生 (かたてまがくせい）, but this has a meaning closer to just "taking classes in one's spare time". Either way, you are probably going to end up needing to explain yourself if you want to say you are a part-time student, because most people in Japan will not be familiar with the concept.

Thanks