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[Kurita]

Pretty much verbatim what my gf has said to me, lol. I always assumed you were Japanese Are you studying in Japan, or abroad?

I'm French, studying Japanese in France
My school is called Inalco, it's a college dedicated to oriental civilizations. Pretty much unique in Europe.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

I want to take N2 in the summer. I'm looking at the shelf full of JLPT books in Junkudo and I'm wondering, which series is the best?

 

[TheSporkWithin]

I want to take N2 in the summer. I'm looking at the shelf full of JLPT books in Junkudo and I'm wondering, which series is the best?

Common consensus seems to be that the 新完全マスター books are probably the best, but some people find the 日本語総まとめ books a bit "friendlier." At N2 level 総まとめ books have explanations in English, while 完全マスター ones do not (they do have very useful explanations in Japanese and great example sentences though). I'm working through 新完全マスター文法N2 right now and I used the 読解 one for N3, which was excellent.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

Common consensus seems to be that the 新完全マスター books are probably the best, but some people find the 日本語総まとめ books a bit "friendlier." At N2 level 総まとめ books have explanations in English, while 完全マスター ones do not (they do have very useful explanations in Japanese and great example sentences though). I'm working through 新完全マスター文法N2 right now and I used the 読解 one for N3, which was excellent.

Thanks, I'll give them a look.

 

[RangerBAD]

このブロガーは時々とても面白い記事を書くが、　時々とてもつまらない記事も書く。

このブロガーはとても面白い記事を書くことがあるが、　とてもつまらない記事も書くことがある。

Is that right? Do I need it at the end of both clauses?

 

[Resilient]

このブロガーは時々とても面白い記事を書くが、　時々とてもつまらない記事も書く。

このブロガーはとても面白い記事を書くことがあるが、　とてもつまらない記事も書くことがある。

Is that right? Do I need it at the end of both clauses?

Depends on what you're trying to say.

First sentence reads as "This blogger will sometimes write interesting articles, but sometimes will write uninteresting articles" - you're using plain form though so you're implying he is gonna do it.

The second sentence reads "This blogger is able to write interesting articles, but is able to write uninteresting articles" - you're using potential form here, which is implying that he has the ability to do it, or he can do it (allowed to do it).

Simplify it and try and say it in Japanese instead of English/Native Language > Japanese. Maybe just talk about the articles instead of the blogger?

 

[RangerBAD]

Depends on what you're trying to say.

First sentence reads as "This blogger will sometimes write interesting articles, but sometimes will write uninteresting articles" - you're using plain form though so you're implying he is gonna do it.

The second sentence reads "This blogger is able to write interesting articles, but is able to write uninteresting articles" - you're using potential form here, which is implying that he has the ability to do it, or he can do it (allowed to do it).

Simplify it and try and say it in Japanese instead of English/Native Language > Japanese. Maybe just talk about the articles instead of the blogger?

Turns out I was almost right. First clause needed こともある instead of ことがある。 Note: The first sentence was from Tobira and they wanted me to rewrite it with ことがある/こともある. Not sure where you're getting potential.

 

[I'm an expert]

Res, in the nicest way possible, your post is basically entirely wrong.

Ranger, I feel sorry you are wasting your time on this shit in the first place.

 

[RangerBAD]

Res, in the nicest way possible, your post is basically entirely wrong.

Ranger, I feel sorry you are wasting your time on this shit in the first place.

What do you mean? What should I be doing?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

What do you mean? What should I be doing?

I'm going to assume he's talking about using a classroom-style textbook and structure that has you doing conversion exercises, etc. as a means to learn a language.

 

[RangerBAD]

I'm going to assume he's talking about using a classroom-style textbook and structure that has you doing conversion exercises, etc. as a means to learn a language.

Well, I'm open to different routes, but what else am I supposed to do? That's why I asked him.

 

[I'm an expert]

I wrote a giant post as usual but it came off as too preachy so I said fuck it. A lot of this really depends on someone's goals. What they want from this language and how they want to use it. I don't presume to know your goals.

In general, I think people don't realize the giant gap there is between textbook jgo and practical jgo. So many people spend so much time learning the school way that when real world jgo hits them in the face it's quite a surprise. I'm not saying what you're learning isn't real Japanese, or that it's not beneficial, or that you shouldn't use it to build a foundation. Just that you should genuinely put in the bare minimum to lock it in your head, pass the multiple choice test, and move on to the next point. One by one. Till you get to your goal, jlpt 1 or whatever it is. And then begin your real studies.

But what you'll realize through practical study is that the stuff taught in textbooks automatically gets locked in your brain in a much better way. You create that toolbox of formations and patterns by yourself. And eventually you realize you can pull the correct tool out naturally in the moment, rather than only when a specific question on some test tells you to. It's something you'll notice immediately when it clicks, though for most people it's a good few years into the process.

 

[RangerBAD]

I wrote a giant post as usual but it came off as too preachy so I said fuck it. A lot of this really depends on someone's goals. What they want from this language and how they want to use it. I don't presume to know your goals.

In general, I think people don't realize the giant gap there is between textbook jgo and practical jgo. So many people spend so much time learning the school way that when real world jgo hits them in the face it's quite a surprise. I'm not saying what you're learning isn't real Japanese, or that it's not beneficial, or that you shouldn't use it to build a foundation. Just that you should genuinely put in the bare minimum to lock it in your head, pass the multiple choice test, and move on to the next point. One by one. Till you get to your goal, jlpt 1 or whatever it is. And then begin your real studies.

But what you'll realize through practical study is that the stuff taught in textbooks automatically gets locked in your brain in a much better way. You create that toolbox of formations and patterns by yourself. And eventually you realize you can pull the correct tool out naturally in the moment, rather than only when a specific question on some test tells you to. It's something you'll notice immediately when it clicks, though for most people it's a good few years into the process.

I'd like to do more practical studying, but what I am doing isn't really studying for tests. I'm just doing the questions that's in the grammar book and that's it. I really don't know what else I should be doing though.

I always feel better when I see something in a natural language setting that I learned. That always locks it in. I'm under no impression that Japan is some country that uses perfect grammar, or even the grammar I'm learning, at all times. I just want to use the language and doing workbooks keeps that up. I know I'm in for a long haul, but its been worth it so far.

 

[I'm an expert]

I'm all for the long haul. I just think I would have snapped if I did years of textbook style jgo. Bang that shit out in a few months and leave it behind.

 

[RangerBAD]

I'm all for the long haul. I just think I would have snapped if I did years of textbook style jgo. Bang that shit out in a few months and leave it behind.

Not a long haul for the books, but just the language. It might take me a while with this book, but transitioning from beginner to intermediate has been slow. My goals are just really to understand Japanese media and just be able to communicate with Japanese people. I'm not going to be able to live and work there. Due to personal reason, I have a lot of time to study. I try to study about the same amount of time every day so as not to burn out. I just want to make good use of my time.

 

[AmethystEnd]

But what you'll realize through practical study is that the stuff taught in textbooks automatically gets locked in your brain in a much better way. You create that toolbox of formations and patterns by yourself. And eventually you realize you can pull the correct tool out naturally in the moment, rather than only when a specific question on some test tells you to. It's something you'll notice immediately when it clicks, though for most people it's a good few years into the process.

So what are some avenues of "practical study" short of moving to Japan?

 

[I'm an expert]

I'm from a time before things like language exchange sites, skype, facebook, podcasts, and whatever other tools you guys have available now. Not even youtube. In some sense that's good, in some bad. All I had was my boy jimmy breen and a small j-community near nyc.

I'd say one timeless rule is absolutely zero manga, jpop, anime, or games. Unless your sole purpose for jgo is to devour that shit, then knock yourself out. Otherwise it will only widen the gap of situational and practical.

Practical for me was newspapers, home, fashion, and entertainment magazines, all of nhk news' offerings, irc chatrooms, non-fantasy/historical tv shows, very specific talk-based shows, and basic human interaction, preferably younger people and not teachers. Unfortunately a lot of the stuff I used is no longer around. A random example of a good show is something like Sanma no Manma, though this one requires some dialect listening skills.

The reading I think is the most important tool, but also the biggest obstacle for many. Learning how things are written in a newspaper or magazine will completely replace the need for textbook study. The issue is you need kanji and vocab, something you either have the diligence to master or you don't. 3 months is all it took me. After that, learning new words is much more manageable, similar to how you might learn a new english word today from a random thing online.

The trap to avoid is to not focus entirely on consumption. You must speak and write your own thoughts to someone to allow your brain to switch over to production mode. If I had done all of the above minus the online/human interaction, it would have been significantly less effective. 100% correctness is irrelevant, only the act of switching your brain's thinking over. This is why I always tell people not to do e->j here, but rather think in j, express in j.

Going to Japan is not only impractical, it barely does anything for most people. Look how many people on this board live in Japan for years and are still at a beginner level. Clearly being there doesn't magically cure them being lazy. It goes without saying learning a language, even for those of us who are multilingual from the start, takes an enormous investment.

 

[RangerBAD]

I'd like to know of some IRC chatrooms. I've used IRC for a long time.

 

[AmethystEnd]

Going to Japan is not only impractical, it barely does anything for most people. Look how many people on this board live in Japan for years and are still at a beginner level. Clearly being there doesn't magically cure them being lazy. It goes without saying learning a language, even for those of us who are multilingual from the start, takes an enormous investment.

Good to know that's not what you were implying by "practical study". This post is helpful. I'll check out that show you mentioned.

 

[Resilient]

Res, in the nicest way possible, your post is basically entirely wrong.

Ranger, I feel sorry you are wasting your time on this shit in the first place.

Haha holy shit. I read it as Blogger and not Blog and lost track of the sentences context. What a cock up.

 

[urfe]

このブロガーは時々とても面白い記事を書くが、　時々とてもつまらない記事も書く。

このブロガーはとても面白い記事を書くことがあるが、　とてもつまらない記事も書くことがある。

Is that right? Do I need it at the end of both clauses?

Not to jump on in, but it'd be nice to know what you are trying to confirm.

My Japanese isn't near as good as Zefah or Expert, but I think textbooks can be used to understand concepts and then those concepts can be seen in the wild and nuance can be understood.

Is it a matter of what ことがある means and how things change when it's not there? Are you thinking about differences between ことがある and こともある?

All interesting stuff, and as others said, when you have some idea, it's cool to go out in the wild.

I also think games like Layton and Ace Attorney are decent for learning because they don't talk about curses, armor and dragoons, but actual real world things. Newspapers and whatnot are of course better, but to make it fun and all that.

 

[Aizo]

Really great, informative post, expert. Your advice is still applicable to me for sure. Thanks for that one.

 

[I'm an expert]

I'd like to know of some IRC chatrooms. I've used IRC for a long time.

I haven't used irc in a long time, but back then there were many 2ch rooms as well as at least one room on any major server. There also used to be a fairly popular jlearning site, that I totally forgot, that had java based ones we'd use. Again, primitive times. We still used icq. I actually met the 'creator' of all jgo all the time in these chats before he made the site. Had I the savvy to code and web design I totally could have done the same thing since we followed the same philosophy.

Haha holy shit. I read it as Blogger and not Blog and lost track of the sentences context. What a cock up.

Nothing to do with the subject ..it is blogger.. but rather how you're (mis)interpreting the verb forms in both sentences.

Let me just say I enjoy talking about the theory and methods of study way more than I do correcting people's practice sentences or translating their requests. I always find it..less than ideal..when non-native speakers try to help other non-native speakers, since we're all in the same boat regardless of how advanced anyone is. I'm obviously proficient in English but I sure as fuck never correct anyone on here or real life because no matter how good I am, I'm not native. Sometimes I read threads in off topic and I'm like..wait.. is that really how you say that. Have I been saying it wrong? Similarly, when people come in and give bad advice or explanations here (and I'm not talking about res, I'm talking about people who think they're way more advanced) I can't help but cringe, but I'm not going to say 'hey, you're totally wrong' because on the internet we're all in the same boat. Also I don't have the time to be as active as I'd like to be in these kind of threads. I don't even know why I come to these threads. Though I can totally vouch that Zefah has a 100% accuracy rate when he posts here.

I just hope you guys take advantage of other sites than this where there are more native speakers.

 

[Jintor]

seriously, use lang-8 if you're looking for corrections. You won't get just one, but like three or four people on average competing to correct your stuff, and you can take those corrections and kinda average them out. (Also, go out there and correct other people's stuff - give back)

Thanks for the post expert.

 

[Porcile]

I've been studying Japanese for 5 months now, and over the last few weeks, I really feel like I've missed a trick. I used to read about and put all the traditional Japanese learning methods on a pedestal. For some reason thinking that learning it is somehow vastly different to how I've learned things in the past. It really isn't.

I left school at 16 with basic GCSEs. By the time I somehow got to university, I would honestly say that my English language abilities were very poor for a person of my age. By the time I finished university, I'd graduated with a first class BA, and a Masters with distinction. In the space of five years, I went from scraping a GCSE English C, to writing a high level Master's thesis. I was working for the course, and was even helping to improve other students dissertations. You can probably tell by just this post alone, that I am by all means not a hugely intelligent person, or even outstanding at English, but I found the right way to continually improve in the area I needed to improve, while others around me stayed the same level. I certainly didn't read a manual on academic English writing. I just kept reading and writing things relevant to what I was doing, every single day without fail. I'd learn something, and then I'd try and use it. Over time, I greatly improved. That was just the written side of my degree, not the practical side in which I went in with absolutely nothing and came out with a very usable skill set.

Obviously, it's a little bit different for Japanese, since you may not have the underlying grammar knowledge, but you can still find ways to express the thing you want to say even if it is a bit clumsy or unnatural. Over time, you will improve and find better ways to express those things. Speaking is challenging, because it requires a different kind of ability (although not hugely different). I don't get enough speaking practice, but with Skype and all that stuff, it really is my own fault.

I don't know if this post is at all useful for anyone, but anyway, read and understand the grammar points and then use them to express the things you want to express. Get someone on Lang-8 or wherever to correct it. Don't just stick to the bullshit they have you writing in textbooks. That stuff will slowly drain your motivation away.

Think about it, why are you writing about blog posts? Write about the girl or guy you want to bang, or something else vastly more interesting to you. In the end, you'll be able to express anything you want. My grammar level is so basic it's laughable, but this morning after reading this thread, I managed to write a blog post in Japanese relating to this discussion. A week later, I'll be able to write something even better. I write a Japanese blog post on Lang-8 every day now and don't bother with the text book exercises, unless I really don't understand something.

 

[Resilient]

I haven't used irc in a long time, but back then there were many 2ch rooms as well as at least one room on any major server. There also used to be a fairly popular jlearning site, that I totally forgot, that had java based ones we'd use. Again, primitive times. We still used icq. I actually met the 'creator' of all jgo all the time in these chats before he made the site. Had I the savvy to code and web design I totally could have done the same thing since we followed the same philosophy.

Nothing to do with the subject ..it is blogger.. but rather how you're (mis)interpreting the verb forms in both sentences.

Let me just say I enjoy talking about the theory and methods of study way more than I do correcting people's practice sentences or translating their requests. I always find it..less than ideal..when non-native speakers try to help other non-native speakers, since we're all in the same boat regardless of how advanced anyone is. I'm obviously proficient in English but I sure as fuck never correct anyone on here or real life because no matter how good I am, I'm not native. Sometimes I read threads in off topic and I'm like..wait.. is that really how you say that. Have I been saying it wrong? Similarly, when people come in and give bad advice or explanations here (and I'm not talking about res, I'm talking about people who think they're way more advanced) I can't help but cringe, but I'm not going to say 'hey, you're totally wrong' because on the internet we're all in the same boat. Also I don't have the time to be as active as I'd like to be in these kind of threads. I don't even know why I come to these threads. Though I can totally vouch that Zefah has a 100% accuracy rate when he posts here.

I just hope you guys take advantage of other sites than this where there are more native speakers.

yeah i see what you mean. i honestly feel like an ass, i try not to comment too much when people ask for help in here, thought i would give it a shot but clearly interpreted it wrong. it 100% comes down to not getting enough practical exp, i know its my fault there. i don't want to turn this page into a pity party, but it's the most frustrating wall i'm at atm - i know the grammar, my vocab is good on the spot, i can form sentences, but the situational i've studied has become a crutch, and i fuck up interpreting a simple sentence. and i always say "don't go E into J, just go J" but it's still a wall that i need to get past.

appreciate your input. don't want to turn this post into a hand job, but it's always good when you drop in.

 

[I'm an expert]

yeah i see what you mean. i honestly feel like an ass, i try not to comment too much when people ask for help in here, thought i would give it a shot but clearly interpreted it wrong. it 100% comes down to not getting enough practical exp, i know its my fault there. i don't want to turn this page into a pity party, but it's the most frustrating wall i'm at atm - i know the grammar, my vocab is good on the spot, i can form sentences, but the situational i've studied has become a crutch, and i fuck up interpreting a simple sentence. and i always say "don't go E into J, just go J" but it's still a wall that i need to get past.

appreciate your input. don't want to turn this post into a hand job, but it's always good when you drop in.

Lol, I really didn't pick your post on purpose to make some example. I'm not saying not to help each other and discuss ideas and try to interpret things. I probably should have chosen someone else's post to segway into this discussion because of course you're still a beginner. There are others here who make similar mistakes but don't even realize because they think they're past the beginner level.

It's just ranger's incredibly stale sentence pattern along with your interpretation was just like.. damn.. we need to pause here. So I do apologize, I wasn't trying to pick on you specifically. Though I do recommend, to everyone, phrasing stuff more in the form of discussion rather than 'I know how to explain this point, let me give advice.'

Of course that's a suggestion, no one has to listen to me. As for overcoming your wall, it's easy, it just requires time. I know a lot of people just don't have the discipline to pour the time in. When I have some time this weekend I'll write up what I did back in the stone age and save you guys from having to pay for japanese all the time. Hint: no fucking anki

 

[Resilient]

Lol, I really didn't pick your post on purpose to make some example. I'm not saying not to help each other and discuss ideas and try to interpret things. I probably should have chosen someone else's post to segway into this discussion because of course you're still a beginner. There are others here who make similar mistakes but don't even realize because they think they're past the beginner level.

It's just ranger's incredibly stale sentence pattern along with your interpretation was just like.. damn.. we need to pause here. So I do apologize, I wasn't trying to pick on you specifically. Though I do recommend, to everyone, phrasing stuff more in the form of discussion rather than 'I know how to explain this point, let me give advice.'

Of course that's a suggestion, no one has to listen to me. As for overcoming your wall, it's easy, it just requires time. I know a lot of people just don't have the discipline to pour the time in. When I have some time this weekend I'll write up what I did back in the stone age and save you guys from having to pay for japanese all the time. Hint: no fucking anki

i wasn't offended, you don't need to apologise. it's better (for me, and whoever else) that you point it out than let it slip - otherwise we become complacent. yeah, it's a time thing, but i know i need to put more effort in too.

 

[Kilrogg]

Let me just say I enjoy talking about the theory and methods of study way more than I do correcting people's practice sentences or translating their requests. I always find it..less than ideal..when non-native speakers try to help other non-native speakers, since we're all in the same boat regardless of how advanced anyone is. I'm obviously proficient in English but I sure as fuck never correct anyone on here or real life because no matter how good I am, I'm not native. Sometimes I read threads in off topic and I'm like..wait.. is that really how you say that. Have I been saying it wrong? Similarly, when people come in and give bad advice or explanations here (and I'm not talking about res, I'm talking about people who think they're way more advanced) I can't help but cringe, but I'm not going to say 'hey, you're totally wrong' because on the internet we're all in the same boat. Also I don't have the time to be as active as I'd like to be in these kind of threads. I don't even know why I come to these threads. Though I can totally vouch that Zefah has a 100% accuracy rate when he posts here.

I just hope you guys take advantage of other sites than this where there are more native speakers.

Great humble philosophy to have, and I generally with you. However, I would say you should give yourself more credit. Sure, you're not a native speaker of English, and neither am I. As a result, we can always make mistakes when correcting people But judging by your posts, you're obviously very proficient (and, in some ways, probably more proficient than most native speakers). Same goes for me. It's okay to allow yourself to correct people even if you're not native, as long as you're not being an ass about it. And if it turns out you gave wrong advice, well, you can always apologize and everything's fine.

(I just hope I'm not giving wrong Japanese advice too often. I'm certainly not as proficient as you or Zefah, so there's always that lingering doubt in the back of my head whenever I try to help someone.)

 

[I'm an expert]

Well I also have to wrestle with my internet persona. For years I purposely played a character on this forum for various reasons, and as a result I carry this weird luggage with me. If I post in any thread other than the community ones people know exactly the shit I'm shoveling. And then recently some of that bled over to the living in Japan thread and it really made me reconsider when and how I post. My posts get interpreted as being from an ass regardless of whether I turn the asshole switch off. I'm also just very blunt, both online and off. This makes it really hard to be productive on this kind of thread lol. I think a month or two ago I tried helping a guy who posted here and he hasn't been back since lol.

 

[TheSporkWithin]

Similarly, when people come in and give bad advice or explanations here (and I'm not talking about res, I'm talking about people who think they're way more advanced) I can't help but cringe, but I'm not going to say 'hey, you're totally wrong' because on the internet we're all in the same boat.

I probably should have chosen someone else's post to segway into this discussion because of course you're still a beginner. There are others here who make similar mistakes but don't even realize because they think they're past the beginner level.

You can say it, I'm terrible. I won't cry.

Seriously though, if I post something that is wrong, I hope that someone who knows better will come along and fix whatever thing it is that I'm doing wrong. My understanding of the language is super patchy and I'm well-aware of that. I'm pretty sure that I'm responsible for at least a few of the posts that you're thinking of.

I like this thread. A lot of people post here for different reasons; sharing resources, asking questions, giving tips and just keeping motivated. It's a lot better than most of the other hubs that I've come across, like the Learn Japanese subreddit, which is good for laughs but not much else, or the koohii forum which is filled with people measuring their internet dicks over who went through Heisig's book the fastest (I saw people talking about some guy who "finished" it in three days like he was some sort of god).

I also really like having a couple old-hats here to keep the rest of us grounded. I appreciate your posts here, expert, and I know others do too.

So yeah, I'm not really sure what the real point of this post is. I've had a long day and my brain is pretty fried. I'm gonna go play some 大逆転裁判 in bed.

 

[Porcile]

lol. No one should be scared of posting advice, or be worried that they're going to be schooled by someone they see as superior because they gave bad advice. It's a learning thread. If you have an idea about something, say it. Fuck it, if I see something which I think I can contribute to, then I'm going to join in. If i'm wrong, then i'm wrong and someone can correct me.

 

[RangerBAD]

Well I also have to wrestle with my internet persona. For years I purposely played a character on this forum for various reasons, and as a result I carry this weird luggage with me. If I post in any thread other than the community ones people know exactly the shit I'm shoveling. And then recently some of that bled over to the living in Japan thread and it really made me reconsider when and how I post. My posts get interpreted as being from an ass regardless of whether I turn the asshole switch off. I'm also just very blunt, both online and off. This makes it really hard to be productive on this kind of thread lol. I think a month or two ago I tried helping a guy who posted here and he hasn't been back since lol.

I'm an honest person, so I'll be honest. Well, I don't really know anything about your reputation. I'm willing to listen to what you have to say, and I'm enough of an adult to not look too deeply into how it's being said. I'm here to learn, get advice and also just to talk to people that share a similar interest -- Japanese. However, when you say there are better/different ways of doing things, then you might want to explain that opinion. When you don't, that's when you come off as elitist. It's not the bluntness because that's needed for learning. Don't be afraid of being blunt with us. In no way am I upset or offended, and I value your advice even more now having heard your side of things.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I'm from a time before things like language exchange sites, skype, facebook, podcasts, and whatever other tools you guys have available now. Not even youtube. In some sense that's good, in some bad. All I had was my boy jimmy breen and a small j-community near nyc.

I'd say one timeless rule is absolutely zero manga, jpop, anime, or games. Unless your sole purpose for jgo is to devour that shit, then knock yourself out. Otherwise it will only widen the gap of situational and practical.

Practical for me was newspapers, home, fashion, and entertainment magazines, all of nhk news' offerings, irc chatrooms, non-fantasy/historical tv shows, very specific talk-based shows, and basic human interaction, preferably younger people and not teachers. Unfortunately a lot of the stuff I used is no longer around. A random example of a good show is something like Sanma no Manma, though this one requires some dialect listening skills.

The reading I think is the most important tool, but also the biggest obstacle for many. Learning how things are written in a newspaper or magazine will completely replace the need for textbook study. The issue is you need kanji and vocab, something you either have the diligence to master or you don't. 3 months is all it took me. After that, learning new words is much more manageable, similar to how you might learn a new english word today from a random thing online.

The trap to avoid is to not focus entirely on consumption. You must speak and write your own thoughts to someone to allow your brain to switch over to production mode. If I had done all of the above minus the online/human interaction, it would have been significantly less effective. 100% correctness is irrelevant, only the act of switching your brain's thinking over. This is why I always tell people not to do e->j here, but rather think in j, express in j.

Going to Japan is not only impractical, it barely does anything for most people. Look how many people on this board live in Japan for years and are still at a beginner level. Clearly being there doesn't magically cure them being lazy. It goes without saying learning a language, even for those of us who are multilingual from the start, takes an enormous investment.

Great post that anyone serious about the language should read. I would personally disagree with the only the games/manga part. I think it's totally fine to use those as tools for language learning, as long as the context (that they aren't accurate reflections of reality) is fully understood by the learner. Both can be great reading practice and sources of rich vocabulary. Of course that depends on the game/manga.

I think I started learning later than you, so places like 2ch were a regular go-to for me. I was also lucky enough to have a Japanese video store nearby where I could access all sorts of Japanese TV content. However bad some of them can be, the typical Japanese variety shows, history-focused programs, and live-action dramas, can be great exposure to the language and the culture. I imagine all of that stuff can now be found online for free in HD on shady Chinese video hosting sites for savvy Internet users.

Anyway, I definitely agree with the focusing on the practical approach. Same with the method of powering through Kanji and vocab. I personally used "Kanji Drill" books made for elementary school kids to learn the Kanji in the same order that school children in Japan do. You pick up a lot of good vocabulary doing this, and as you say, three months of hardcore study should be enough to get you to a level that lets just start reading stuff (albeit with a dictionary on hand) and really picking things up quickly from there.

 

[shanshan310]

mmm, I agree that there are better places to ask for language corrections than from other L2 learners on a gaming site. Lang 8 is fantastic for that kind of thing. You'll get faster corrections from usually multiple native speakers along with explanations etc. I'd say it's a bit more trustworthy anyway.


I'm in the process of preparing for the workforce at the moment and I was wondering if anyone had any good ideas for practical language prep I can do for that. I've done a fair amount of keigo study but my business vocabulary is pretty small. I was thinking about buying some kind of textbook but I thought perhaps there might be something like a tv show? I suppose I could learn it on the job but I'd prefer to be familiar with the lingo already if I can.

Of course that's a suggestion, no one has to listen to me. As for overcoming your wall, it's easy, it just requires time. I know a lot of people just don't have the discipline to pour the time in. When I have some time this weekend I'll write up what I did back in the stone age and save you guys from having to pay for japanese all the time. Hint: no fucking anki

Looking forward to hearing more.

 

[I'm an expert]

You can say it, I'm terrible. I won't cry.

Seriously though, if I post something that is wrong, I hope that someone who knows better will come along and fix whatever thing it is that I'm doing wrong. My understanding of the language is super patchy and I'm well-aware of that. I'm pretty sure that I'm responsible for at least a few of the posts that you're thinking of.

I like this thread. A lot of people post here for different reasons; sharing resources, asking questions, giving tips and just keeping motivated. It's a lot better than most of the other hubs that I've come across, like the Learn Japanese subreddit, which is good for laughs but not much else, or the koohii forum which is filled with people measuring their internet dicks over who went through Heisig's book the fastest (I saw people talking about some guy who "finished" it in three days like he was some sort of god).

I also really like having a couple old-hats here to keep the rest of us grounded. I appreciate your posts here, expert, and I know others do too.

So yeah, I'm not really sure what the real point of this post is. I've had a long day and my brain is pretty fried. I'm gonna go play some 大逆転裁判 in bed.

Just to reiterate, I'm not the J-police. There's like one native speaker who comes to this thread. He can't fix everything, and neither could I. I hope everyone feels free to post what they like. It'd just be, in my opinion, more helpful if everyone discusses the points rather than.. give advice on them? If that makes sense. A lot of people just take what others say at face value because there's no reason to doubt anyone here if they come in and give an answer.

lol. No one should be scared of posting advice, or be worried that they're going to be schooled by someone they see as superior because they gave bad advice. It's a learning thread. If you have an idea about something, say it. Fuck it, if I see something which I think I can contribute to, then I'm going to join in. If i'm wrong, then i'm wrong and someone can correct me.

Right. That's what people should do. No one here has the time to actually vouch every post. It was, as I just said to spork, more a suggestion of people being a bit more humble in the advice they try to give. Humble is not the word though, maybe, cautious. That's not the word either. Just, more aware that they are students too. Unless they're not and are actually J-professors.

I'm an honest person, so I'll be honest. Well, I don't really know anything about your reputation. I'm willing to listen to what you have to say, and I'm enough of an adult to not look too deeply into how it's being said. I'm here to learn, get advice and also just to talk to people that share a similar interest -- Japanese. However, when you say there are better/different ways of doing things, then you might want to explain that opinion. When you don't, that's when you come off as elitist. It's not the bluntness because that's needed for learning. Don't be afraid of being blunt with us. In no way am I upset or offended, and I value your advice even more now having heard your side of things.

Yeah sorry I usually drive by post on mobile and then clean stuff up or elaborate when I'm home. I work a lot though so sometimes I can't give the detailed response I'd like to.

Great post that anyone serious about the language should read. I would personally disagree with the only the games/manga part. I think it's totally fine to use those as tools for language learning, as long as the context (that they aren't accurate reflections of reality) is fully understood by the learner. Both can be great reading practice and sources of rich vocabulary. Of course that depends on the game/manga.

I think I started learning later than you, so places like 2ch were a regular go-to for me. I was also lucky enough to have a Japanese video store nearby where I could access all sorts of Japanese TV content. However bad some of them can be, the typical Japanese variety shows, history-focused programs, and live-action dramas, can be great exposure to the language and the culture. I imagine all of that stuff can now be found online for free in HD on shady Chinese video hosting sites for savvy Internet users.

Anyway, I definitely agree with the focusing on the practical approach. Same with the method of powering through Kanji and vocab. I personally used "Kanji Drill" books made for elementary school kids to learn the Kanji in the same order that school children in Japan do. You pick up a lot of good vocabulary doing this, and as you say, three months of hardcore study should be enough to get you to a level that lets just start reading stuff (albeit with a dictionary on hand) and really picking things up quickly from there.

So I've been importing Japanese games since the early 90s, I used to fansub anime, I knew some pretty big DBZ internet celebrities in real life. In short, I know what it is to be a weeb. But when I actually got into serious study I completely shut that shit out. It just isn't helpful in the grand scheme and it turns you into THAT guy in the college class. I remember that guy in class. He quit after a year because his goals didn't align with the work required.

I know, it's more fun to play a game and learn than read a newspaper about politics. I just think learning J-go from a game is basically learning for games, not for the overall language. You can totally go back to your hobbies AFTER you've advanced your studies enough that you don't need to pause every 3 seconds because you can't read something. I also don't see the need for vocab like PALACE and DARK MAGIC and RESTORES LIFE early on. =/

mmm, I agree that there are better places to ask for language corrections than from other L2 learners on a gaming site. Lang 8 is fantastic for that kind of thing. You'll get faster corrections from usually multiple native speakers along with explanations etc. I'd say it's a bit more trustworthy anyway.

I'm in the process of preparing for the workforce at the moment and I was wondering if anyone had any good ideas for practical language prep I can do for that. I've done a fair amount of keigo study but my business vocabulary is pretty small. I was thinking about buying some kind of textbook but I thought perhaps there might be something like a tv show? I suppose I could learn it on the job but I'd prefer to be familiar with the lingo already if I can.


Looking forward to hearing more.

So, again, decades ago lol, the Japanese for Busy People series has a textbook like Business Japanese for Busy People. It was actually quite good. The vocab you need will depend on the industry. As you know there are jdramas for basically every line of work so you could go there if you really wanted. Sapuri is a classic workforce style manga/show. There are also most likely blogs and journals from people in your industry you could find. If you want to share your industry, we could pinpoint some stuff.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

So I've been importing Japanese games since the early 90s, I used to fansub anime, I knew some pretty big DBZ internet celebrities in real life. In short, I know what it is to be a weeb. But when I actually got into serious study I completely shut that shit out. It just isn't helpful in the grand scheme and it turns you into THAT guy in the college class. I remember that guy in class. He quit after a year because his goals didn't align with the work required.

I know, it's more fun to play a game and learn than read a newspaper about politics. I just think learning J-go from a game is basically learning for games, not for the overall language. You can totally go back to your hobbies AFTER you've advanced your studies enough that you don't need to pause every 3 seconds because you can't read something. I also don't see the need for vocab like PALACE and DARK MAGIC and RESTORES LIFE early on. =/

I never really got into anime (or even manga that much), but I was always a big game fan. When I first visited Japan, I picked up a PS2 and a bunch of games, mostly RPGs. Learned a ton from stuff like FFX, Kingdom Hearts, Suikoden 3, Xenosaga Episode I, the original Samurai-dou (Way of the Samurai), lots of PS1 classics, etc.

I would totally agree that it needs to be supplementary, rather than a primary method of study, of course. I don't want to pretend like it's necessary or even an ideal way to learn, but I just didn't want to rule it out (assuming the learner is sensible).

 

[Porcile]

I found a Japanese speaking partner to do a bit of practice with on Skype. I just hope they aren't crazy or anything.

 

[RangerBAD]

I never really got into anime (or even manga that much), but I was always a big game fan. When I first visited Japan, I picked up a PS2 and a bunch of games, mostly RPGs. Learned a ton from stuff like FFX, Kingdom Hearts, Suikoden 3, Xenosaga Episode I, the original Samurai-dou (Way of the Samurai), lots of PS1 classics, etc.

I would totally agree that it needs to be supplementary, rather than a primary method of study, of course. I don't want to pretend like it's necessary or even an ideal way to learn, but I just didn't want to rule it out (assuming the learner is sensible).

Yeah, I think with learning you need a foundation. It's pretty much like when you learn English. You're supplementing, without knowing it, through media and literature.

 

[AmethystEnd]

There are people who can't get it through their heads that the Japanese they hear/read in anime/manga/games is not the Japanese they're going to be speaking in day to day interactions. I watched them flunk out 2 years ago. Those people should absolutely stay away from that kind of media if they're serious about learning the language.

I agree that you won't need to know "dark magic", "palace", or "restores life" for day to day conversations. As long as you're not the kind of person who would try to work those words into regular interactions, though, I don't see the harm as long as you're (as Zefah said) not using it as your primary method of study.

If this comes across as me just making excuses about not wanting to give up Japanese entertainment media, that's fine too.

 

[Kurita]

I honestly don't know how you can learn by just using entertainment, but then again I've never tried since I'm learning Japanese in an academic environment.
I'm a huge Japanese music fan, watch my fair share of dramas and variety shows, listen to some radio shows, read music websites... but I see it as a way to test my abilities (and maybe learn some new words here and there) while having fun, not a learning tool.

I'd still recommend it as a complement just to get used to seeing/hearing the language. That's pretty much how I've managed to learn English so quickly, by the end of high school I was watching TV shows without subtitles.

 

[RangerBAD]

There are people who can't get it through their heads that the Japanese they hear/read in anime/manga/games is not the Japanese they're going to be speaking in day to day interactions. I watched them flunk out 2 years ago. Those people should absolutely stay away from that kind of media if they're serious about learning the language.

I agree that you won't need to know "dark magic", "palace", or "restores life" for day to day conversations. As long as you're not the kind of person who would try to work those words into regular interactions, though, I don't see the harm as long as you're (as Zefah said) not using it as your primary method of study.

If this comes across as me just making excuses about not wanting to give up Japanese entertainment media, that's fine too.

You don't need to give anything up. I'll always love the culture.

I honestly don't know how you can learn by just using entertainment, but then again I've never tried since I'm learning Japanese in an academic environment.
I'm a huge Japanese music fan, watch my fair share of dramas and variety shows, listen to some radio shows, read music websites... but I see it as a way to test my abilities (and maybe learn some new words here and there) while having fun, not a learning tool.
I'd still recommend it as a complement just to get used to seeing/hearing the language. That's pretty much how I've managed to learn English so quickly, by the end of high school I was watching TV shows without subtitles.

That's how I see it too. I think it's not wrong to make it a goal to understand those things, but you need practical learning first.

I think supplement was the wrong word for me to use.

 

[PumpkinSpice]

Picking apart lyrics in some Japanese music lately has helped me learn a bunch of new slang words, which is always useful.

 

[Porcile]

Games/manga/music/films/books/porn/anime. It's all Japanese.

Spoiler

What kind of useful porn vocab is there?

 

[I'm an expert]

Picking apart lyrics in some Japanese music lately has helped me learn a bunch of new slang words, which is always useful.

Useful for..?

 

[RangerBAD]

Games/manga/music/films/books/porn/anime. It's all Japanese.

Spoiler

What kind of useful porn vocab is there?

Spoiler

You don't know some already?

 

[Kurita]

Spoiler

What kind of useful porn vocab is there?

中に出す

 

[Porcile]

Useful for... everyday conversation where porn vocab is appropriate.

 

[Jintor]

Depends who you talk to

Imho it's fine to use media to learn as long as you know the contexts to use it. Anything that keeps your interest is valuable.

 

[urfe]

Listening to music is good practice for karaoke.

Karaoke is good speaking practice. Let your mouth get its way around the language and all that.