When you say quick strokes do you mean something like 行書体? Stuff like this 日 or these ソンシツ (not mine):
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The Big Ass Superior Thread of Learning Japanese
- Thread starter RevenantKioku
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When you say quick strokes do you mean something like 行書体? Stuff like this 日 or these ソンシツ (not mine):
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
I didn't mean anything as stylized or defined as any shotai, just your own personal handwriting. If your characters are pretty enough to be recognized as gyoushotai this early on in your studies, that's quite a gift.
I wish it was this good. I've been trying to speed up my writing, so I'm wondering if 行書体 would develop naturally when brute-forcing of if it's something you need to "work on consciously".
Can you brute force cursive?
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
This is an interesting topic. This is my personal experience with writing three different languages in my life. You definitely can't practice your shorthand the way you practice full blown cursive. It's just a product of your years and years of writing in your style. Not to mention there are even more personal styles within that, like if I'm taking shorthand notes just for myself or others to read, as they can be wildly different.
With my Japanese I can definitely say that my handwriting looks nothing like how it did from my whiteboard days, but that's again due to years and years after the fact of writing in my own style. But it also comes from years and years of reading other peoples' shorthand as well as the standard sort of shorthand for kanji that you see in most places. That's why I when I originally responded to your question I meant that the shortcuts you'd figure out for yourself wouldn't be true gyoushotai, because it's more than likely you've never been exposed to natural gyoushotai (depending on a lot of things in general). So your idea of a quick semi-cursive kanji is just however way you figured out write it quickly, but not necessarily how it would be written quickly by a majority of others.
Let's be honest, how many of you learning Japanese right now write more than a few words or characters at a time? How many people here are writing actual shorthand notes freehand from their memory? Like try transcribing a show you're watching/listening to. Even if you do my three month method, the way you write your kanji is for you and only for you to read so again it'd be totally different than how you'd stylize it for an audience if you were actually put in that situation. If you're using the language naturally in a native setting, you'll be exposed to that situation over and over. How many of you are? I remember running into this situation early on after I moved to Japan when filling out forms. I instantly changed how I wrote my kanji because I realized it would most likely not be legible if I wrote them 'my' way.
In short, you can write thousands of vocab a day for months for your study, and you would without a doubt create your own style. But I don't think it'd be the end of the progression of your style IF you were indeed forced to use your style in situations that aren't simply 'write from memory this vocab for only me to see'. I think if you really wanted to focus on evolving your shotai style, you'd have to practice daily writing and forming your own thoughts (or summarizing others' thoughts) by hand.
I do have a writing (composition) portion of my study method, but I decided to omit it here since I don't think most people here would indeed be focused in that. However, I did NOT do it with handwriting style in mind. It would have been interesting to see the results had I taken that into consideration..
Great topic. I love my wife's shorthand btw.
With my Japanese I can definitely say that my handwriting looks nothing like how it did from my whiteboard days, but that's again due to years and years after the fact of writing in my own style. But it also comes from years and years of reading other peoples' shorthand as well as the standard sort of shorthand for kanji that you see in most places. That's why I when I originally responded to your question I meant that the shortcuts you'd figure out for yourself wouldn't be true gyoushotai, because it's more than likely you've never been exposed to natural gyoushotai (depending on a lot of things in general). So your idea of a quick semi-cursive kanji is just however way you figured out write it quickly, but not necessarily how it would be written quickly by a majority of others.
Let's be honest, how many of you learning Japanese right now write more than a few words or characters at a time? How many people here are writing actual shorthand notes freehand from their memory? Like try transcribing a show you're watching/listening to. Even if you do my three month method, the way you write your kanji is for you and only for you to read so again it'd be totally different than how you'd stylize it for an audience if you were actually put in that situation. If you're using the language naturally in a native setting, you'll be exposed to that situation over and over. How many of you are? I remember running into this situation early on after I moved to Japan when filling out forms. I instantly changed how I wrote my kanji because I realized it would most likely not be legible if I wrote them 'my' way.
In short, you can write thousands of vocab a day for months for your study, and you would without a doubt create your own style. But I don't think it'd be the end of the progression of your style IF you were indeed forced to use your style in situations that aren't simply 'write from memory this vocab for only me to see'. I think if you really wanted to focus on evolving your shotai style, you'd have to practice daily writing and forming your own thoughts (or summarizing others' thoughts) by hand.
I do have a writing (composition) portion of my study method, but I decided to omit it here since I don't think most people here would indeed be focused in that. However, I did NOT do it with handwriting style in mind. It would have been interesting to see the results had I taken that into consideration..
Great topic. I love my wife's shorthand btw.
hey i wonder if i can start skipping over the early days gram -
on the topic of dictation and transcribing. i still have my tutoring, because my tutor is (IMO) great, native Japanese, doesn't afraid of anything (will gladly point out when i've fucked something up) and always corrects me when I say something like a robot (she insists on teaching me the "natural" way to say something). she dislikes E > J and J < E and is pretty good at putting me in the right habits.
we do dictation exercises because i like writing. if you're doing the whiteboard thingy, expect results. i can spin off sentences way faster than i could 5 days ago. i had a really, really good lesson yesterday.
seriously, if you're on Wanikani but feel like you can do more - try this. you won't look back.
on the topic of dictation and transcribing. i still have my tutoring, because my tutor is (IMO) great, native Japanese, doesn't afraid of anything (will gladly point out when i've fucked something up) and always corrects me when I say something like a robot (she insists on teaching me the "natural" way to say something). she dislikes E > J and J < E and is pretty good at putting me in the right habits.
we do dictation exercises because i like writing. if you're doing the whiteboard thingy, expect results. i can spin off sentences way faster than i could 5 days ago. i had a really, really good lesson yesterday.
seriously, if you're on Wanikani but feel like you can do more - try this. you won't look back.
lol it's actually great but it depends on the type of person you are. I honestly think I've grinded in RPGs as hard as I'm about to grind with this.
Like, if I give up on this method, I'll probably just quit studying J all together. Knowing that I could make next year easy , but quitting on it would just be like ...you suck jackass.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
hey i wonder if i can start skipping over the early days gram -
on the topic of dictation and transcribing. i still have my tutoring, because my tutor is (IMO) great, native Japanese, doesn't afraid of anything (will gladly point out when i've fucked something up) and always corrects me when I say something like a robot (she insists on teaching me the "natural" way to say something). she dislikes E > J and J < E and is pretty good at putting me in the right habits.
we do dictation exercises because i like writing. if you're doing the whiteboard thingy, expect results. i can spin off sentences way faster than i could 5 days ago. i had a really, really good lesson yesterday.
seriously, if you're on Wanikani but feel like you can do more - try this. you won't look back.
The reason I did that with grammar is because there are significantly fewer grammar points in total than kanji or vocab and because they have more applications and use than just a simple vocab. But I wanted to learn them as a vocab. Now, as I look back at this method years later and discuss with other people, I can certainly agree that we can make some common sense compromises to speed up the process and lessen the torture.
For example, I'd say after a solid 1-1.5 months of doing kanji, you can probably safely cut out the extremely simple kanji from early on - numbers, sun, moon, person, etc - because if you stuck with this method for over a month you are already at a proficiency that easy kanji are easy. You're learning insane 25 stroke kanji, you're not going to forget the first 50 kanji from jlpt4 because a lot of them are radicals. I'd say the floor would be jlpt3 and up then.
Likewise for grammar, after a month, I'd probably cut out anything below jlpt3 because we have enough common sense to realize we are confident in the basics of basics.
If you become super strapped for time, cutting out jlpt 3 grammar+kanji after 2 months seems reasonable. Maybe. I didn't do it. I'm just thinking back on my younger self and I probably did it out of stubbornness more than practicality. Anything jlpt2 and up (and you should hit jlpt2 pretty quickly with this method, like a few weeks) must be done all the way to the end and the final few days of the last week really need to be drilled because they have the disadvantage of being at the end.
A few things I did to mix things up was:
1. When reviewing my writing list, starting from the most recent and going backwards, rather than starting from the oldest and working up. I'd do this every other day or so to just have variety. You could randomly pick a point in the middle of the list too and wrap around.
2. Jump to a random section of kanji for my day's new 25. Like, if I was on my third week, I'd randomly skip to JLPT1 kanji and do a set of those. So it wasn't just this slow, linear climb through each level 4->3 to 2 to 1, but a bit more of a mish mash. I'd say I did this like two times a week. I'd say don't start this until you're a good ~500 kanji in though just for radical familiarity.
ok, noted. i won't do the bold, because honestly i think a lot of my fears about this taking really long in a month are because i haven't streamlined a lot of this stuff. eg, i'm going to write my common word/writing list in advance on the weekend, maybe take it a week ahead, that way i dont have to write it each night. then print it. then hold it. saves me having to turn around a lot to look at the PC. stuff like that.
grammar, i'm writing a sentence for each pattern. so a sentence that uses each pattern in it. i'm probably going to start combining sentences soon that way i can cut out basic stuff. but i won't drop jlpt3, purely because the 4 stuff is easy at the moment because i've seen it for so long.
i'm trying to find Ikebukuro West Gate Park online but it's a pain in the ass. i'm looking for just the J version, no subs. got a source? the places to buy it from in Australia look like scam sites, i figure that's the only way to find just J; the original DVDs.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Not sure what you mean by preparing your list in advance, but I'm sure you'll all have your own style of organizing and performing the method. You'll definitely streamline a lot of stuff early on.
As for iwgp, or any drama, you can basically find and stream anything released after 2000 because it was most likely fansubbed and archived on one of the thousands of stream sites. I'm not advocating using any illegal site, but some of those shows are even completely on youtube so I don't really know what the internet view on that stuff is anymore. Like, if youtube has it, does it matter if you use some giant drama streaming site? Illegal is illegal, but if the content owners haven't gone after the youtube version..
Anyway what I'm saying is you can watch iwgp like right this second I think (I haven't tried those sites, but they're usually attached to k/c drama sites).
As for subtitles, I'd run into this problem randomly if I found something I wanted to watch (in whatever language) and it had hardcoded subs. I'd just open like notepad or some small window and put it over the bottom of the screen. When I did listening practice back in the day and I had some random fansubbed show, I'd put like a piece of paper on the bottom of my computer screen. Nowadays, at least for new stuff, you can easily get raw copies. There are dedicated people, again on youtube, who rip directly from tv and upload like every weekly show.
Edit: see what I mean, I just typed in iwgp in youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP1TIl4OyXA
Sure, it's shit fansub late generation quality, but it's there, ready to go. Cover the subtitles and you're good to go. So maybe you can find a better quality if that matters to you, shrug.
As for iwgp, or any drama, you can basically find and stream anything released after 2000 because it was most likely fansubbed and archived on one of the thousands of stream sites. I'm not advocating using any illegal site, but some of those shows are even completely on youtube so I don't really know what the internet view on that stuff is anymore. Like, if youtube has it, does it matter if you use some giant drama streaming site? Illegal is illegal, but if the content owners haven't gone after the youtube version..
Anyway what I'm saying is you can watch iwgp like right this second I think (I haven't tried those sites, but they're usually attached to k/c drama sites).
As for subtitles, I'd run into this problem randomly if I found something I wanted to watch (in whatever language) and it had hardcoded subs. I'd just open like notepad or some small window and put it over the bottom of the screen. When I did listening practice back in the day and I had some random fansubbed show, I'd put like a piece of paper on the bottom of my computer screen. Nowadays, at least for new stuff, you can easily get raw copies. There are dedicated people, again on youtube, who rip directly from tv and upload like every weekly show.
Edit: see what I mean, I just typed in iwgp in youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP1TIl4OyXA
Sure, it's shit fansub late generation quality, but it's there, ready to go. Cover the subtitles and you're good to go. So maybe you can find a better quality if that matters to you, shrug.
with streaming these days i don't even know what's legal or not.
lol i'll do that notepad thing if i absolutely can't find a better version. potato may have to do. shit yea
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Iwgp is old man. You won't find raws. You probably wouldnt even find them physical except at a rental place.
Amazon still has some lol
http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B00005HNT7/
Amazon still has some lol
http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B00005HNT7/
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Sucks you're from the middle of nowhere. Only competent aussies I've ever met in jland were from Bris/UQ.
I probably have to qualify to the oz lurkers this is a friendly jab. Res and me are tight like dat.
I probably have to qualify to the oz lurkers this is a friendly jab. Res and me are tight like dat.
Cutting stuff out over time could potentially make this possible for me. Hmm.
All the people I know that went to QLD to study have come back to Melbourne to work in coffee shops 😌
Porcile, you still alive? post if u r ok
Porcile
Member
haha... I'm here... Just trying to reduce my needless internet time. I figured I should spend less time reading how to study and more time doing useful things like actually studying and prepping my materials. I had a lady friend come over last night and this morning I was like "You know I have do kanji and grammar and will basically be ignoring you completely for like two hours?" She didn't hang around long...
Porcile
Member
When I get a bit of time, I'll post up my whiteboard setup and routine for people, which I think is quite efficient and not as physically taxing as it might be (yet). Generally, it's a lot less painful if you're not holding anything except a pen, and you can just switch out printouts of stroke order and daily vocabulary/grammar when and where needed.
I still need to work out a more efficient way of collecting the next day's vocab though. Wanikani I have discovered is a huge pain in the arse for this because while everything is there and ready for you, you can't copy/paste text easily without jumping between menus. I'm sitting here for more than a couple hours a day handwriting the vocabulary I need because its easier than typing it out. I have the radio or a podcast on while doing it though.
When I'm through with all this, I will probably have a mega-resource pre-made for anyone that wishes to do the three month method using Wanikani as your main kanji/vocab resource. Probably also a daily grammar guide using a mix of grammar textbooks like Minna no Nihongo 1+2, JFZ 1-5, Kanzen Master etc which encompasses grammar points from N5 to N1, so you could start with absolutely zero knowledge of Japanese (besides knowing how to write hiragana and katakana) and absolutely no preparation time. Might take a while though and of course would only be tailored to my personal interpretation of I'm an expert's method.
This is all assuming I'm able to complete the three months though.
I still need to work out a more efficient way of collecting the next day's vocab though. Wanikani I have discovered is a huge pain in the arse for this because while everything is there and ready for you, you can't copy/paste text easily without jumping between menus. I'm sitting here for more than a couple hours a day handwriting the vocabulary I need because its easier than typing it out. I have the radio or a podcast on while doing it though.
When I'm through with all this, I will probably have a mega-resource pre-made for anyone that wishes to do the three month method using Wanikani as your main kanji/vocab resource. Probably also a daily grammar guide using a mix of grammar textbooks like Minna no Nihongo 1+2, JFZ 1-5, Kanzen Master etc which encompasses grammar points from N5 to N1, so you could start with absolutely zero knowledge of Japanese (besides knowing how to write hiragana and katakana) and absolutely no preparation time. Might take a while though and of course would only be tailored to my personal interpretation of I'm an expert's method.
This is all assuming I'm able to complete the three months though.
Good idea. I'll post mine too when I get time. I have a good system for creating the vocabulary and writing list. Mine is tailored for people who are very busy. It's still intensive though.
Use Kanji Cards website to build your vocabulary list. The stroke order is there too. Type up your list in word. It's a good skill to have?
Expert, do you type Japanese on a j keyboard? Assume you would in a workplace?
I think it's worth creating your own list. Because you can tailor it to the words most important to you. I try to include as many engineering related words in my list because they'd be words I use often or need to know. But doesn't hurt to post it WHEN you are done - not if.
Use Kanji Cards website to build your vocabulary list. The stroke order is there too. Type up your list in word. It's a good skill to have?
Expert, do you type Japanese on a j keyboard? Assume you would in a workplace?
I think it's worth creating your own list. Because you can tailor it to the words most important to you. I try to include as many engineering related words in my list because they'd be words I use often or need to know. But doesn't hurt to post it WHEN you are done - not if.
shanshan310
Member
Well we do have one of the best Japanese interpreting programs in the world
UQ is where its at.I'm pretty sure I already understand this, but verbてverb is basically verb and verb, right?
「バスに乗って行き」
Also is adding こと or もの after a adjective or verb (by itself) nominalizing or is it literally "thing"?
「難しいことの一つ」
「バスに乗って行き」
Also is adding こと or もの after a adjective or verb (by itself) nominalizing or is it literally "thing"?
「難しいことの一つ」
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Well we do have one of the best Japanese interpreting programs in the world
I was 99% serious and 1% joking. The Aussies I know from UQ were leagues above others. One was basically my mentor from very early on and his Japanese was impeccable for only being 2 or 3 years older than me. I held everyone to his standard in general, including myself.
TheSporkWithin
Member
Yes, that's right. When used with いく and くる like above it serves to distinguish things like "go by bus" or "come by bus." One of the most common you'll see is 持っていく・持ってくる (take / bring)
For verbs こと nominalizes, whereas もの would be "thing" taking the verb as a relative clause. 持っているものが重い - the thing that (I'm) holding is heavy. 待つことはつまらない - waiting is boring.
For adjectives both just serve as a noun taking the adjective. What you posted above would translate as "one difficult thing (part/bit) is..."
Yeah, I asked because I had a conflict with the bolded. I felt like go by bus was right, but it conflicted with the and. Should have just listened my initial thinking. Please explain a "a noun taking the adjective". lol
Also, another dumb question: 「長く続いた」 Why change い to く like you were conjugating for くて or くない? If it was qualifying the verb it would remain plain.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Your original question made no sense. How do you nominalize an adjective? Does adding dog to red make it a noun..? The noun is taking the adjective as a descriptor. The key to your understanding lies in the difference between koto and mono.
Your second question also doesn't make sense. What plain form are you talking about. To make an adjective into an adverb, you have to change the ending. For an adjective like nagai you'd make it nagaku. For an adjective like kirei you'd make it kirei ni. But you're not changing form, you're completely changing the modifier's usage.
Your second question also doesn't make sense. What plain form are you talking about. To make an adjective into an adverb, you have to change the ending. For an adjective like nagai you'd make it nagaku. For an adjective like kirei you'd make it kirei ni. But you're not changing form, you're completely changing the modifier's usage.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Man... I'm pretty good at grammar in both English and Japanese, but damn am I terrible at grammatical terminology.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
The issue is a lot of people learn the textbook way, which means a lot of those stupid grammar concepts come up with their accompanying terminology. So if someone doesn't have a firm grasp of their native language's grammar and related terms, it becomes even more confusing when you now are learning another language's grammar concepts and trying to understand how the grammar concepts apply there. 'Plain form' is a great example.
This is why I tell people to not learn Japanese that way. Polite form..plain form.. te form.. all fuckin useless terms when looking at it from English. Here's my verb. If I want it to mean this, I do this. If I want it to do this, I change this.
The idea of it turning into an adverb crossed my mind. I remember hayai doing that. Just hadn't seen it happen with anything else. Well, it's just been a long time since I've had an English class, but I remember most stuff. More like things became second nature and you no longer think in concepts after that. Plain meaning 長い with the い. Maybe that's dictionary form? The normal, untouched word.
That's me in English. I was like "wtf is nominalizing" a while back. I've had to look up a lot of grammar related words since starting Japanese.
This was something I could never trick my brain into accepting until I started treating grammar and forms and blocks in a memory bank that I grabbed when I needed. Ranger, you just have to force yourself to make the switch. take a few pages back, 書くことがある - I don't think i'll ever forget how to use this, and i can draw on it instantly. i don't even treat it as "meaning x" , i just know that if i want to say "occasionally" i can use this. i don't get it confused with the other uses of ことがある cause I don't even think about them, the different tenses/forms the precede it, their other uses, and their english meanings. if any of that makes sense lol.
for anybody looking for a new podcast, try http://hotcast.info/ - Jintor recommended it a few pages back.
sorry about not including a link earlier, but now that ya'll be talking about media i just listen to it passively as i trawl the wastelands in fallout 4. not the best way to 'study' but it's not really study time anyway so idk
I'm still trying to figure out proper study flow. Conceptualising it:
read thing. find new words/grammar points
enter grammar points/words into SRS. Use SRS pretty much as way to continually be reminded of what those words/grammar points look like.
read/listen to more things. hopefully recognise words/grammar points you already put into srs without having to think too hard because you've been doing srs. enter new words/grammar points into srs.
repeat until forever
works for me, but i need to add more conversation/composition steps somewhere along the way
I'm still trying to figure out proper study flow. Conceptualising it:
read thing. find new words/grammar points
enter grammar points/words into SRS. Use SRS pretty much as way to continually be reminded of what those words/grammar points look like.
read/listen to more things. hopefully recognise words/grammar points you already put into srs without having to think too hard because you've been doing srs. enter new words/grammar points into srs.
repeat until forever
works for me, but i need to add more conversation/composition steps somewhere along the way
dude, think about how many hours a day you spend typing stuff into your SRS, and then how many hours you spend studying that content, and then how many hours a day you spend playing games.
chances are, your data input alone takes like 1.5-2 hours? data input doesn't count as "Study" it's just prep time for studying. then you have to actually study that content, which you'd hope is about 2 hours. then you probably play games for 2-4?
that's 6 hours right there. and it's arguably ineffective, compared to what you could be doing. i did flashcards, and they do help, but none of that compares to the progress i've made in 7 days since doing this. seriously, you'll notice yourself retaining things so easily after the first 2. at least give it a shot for 2 weeks. you're already studying a lot anyway, and you can stand to sacrifice some hours from leisure. if you really want to learn the language, this is hands down the best way to do it.
secretly i just want more working people to suffer.
when what i could be doing is 'killing myself' i'll skip on that until i have a better time position to kill myself. call it a lack of dedication if you will (though I obviously disagree). i realised a long time ago that i had to find a way of learning i was comfortable with or i'd just give up.
I also don't think the data entry is 'not study' - it's just different study. They're all parts of the study process. But it really is the reading in context that helps anything stick in my brain, but i can't do the reading in context if i don't do the earlier bits.
I also don't think the data entry is 'not study' - it's just different study. They're all parts of the study process. But it really is the reading in context that helps anything stick in my brain, but i can't do the reading in context if i don't do the earlier bits.
Porcile
Member
Three month method is just SRS without the Spaced anyway. It's a repetition system pure and simple. The difference is you build up the data bank in three months, with major sacrifices, where as with Anki maybe it takes you two years or whatever with less sacrifices. In the end it is really just a personal call as to how you want to approach collecting that data and neither is the wrong or right way.
I don't think the point can be stressed enough that really both processes are more just collecting the pieces you need to actually get to the real task of learning Japanese. Thinking of it this way, it would be frustrating to me, so this is more why I'm going for the three month thing. I'd still be happy(ish) with the way I doing it before but simply with the caveat that I would really just be learning how to learn, and that any point across those two years, I could encounter any number of things which would be completely alien to me even with a huge bank of knowledge.
I don't think the point can be stressed enough that really both processes are more just collecting the pieces you need to actually get to the real task of learning Japanese. Thinking of it this way, it would be frustrating to me, so this is more why I'm going for the three month thing. I'd still be happy(ish) with the way I doing it before but simply with the caveat that I would really just be learning how to learn, and that any point across those two years, I could encounter any number of things which would be completely alien to me even with a huge bank of knowledge.
I mean, I already did the year and a half of anki normally so it makes no sense for me to reverse all that and cram-study. more to the point i've gone through about five cycles of saying "Oh yes this study method will definitely be my cure-all to everything!" before dropping off a few months into it and i've stuck to this for by far the longest and I'm not dropping a good thing that works for something that even the proponents are like "THIS WILL BURN YOU OUT SO MUCH"
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
I mean, you're saying you did a year and a half of study but you still barely know anything. You're saying you do have the dedication, but you work and live in Japan and choose to sit at home playing games instead of permanently changing your level of knowledge and lifestyle. If you threw your video games in the garbage for 3 months, you could have a lifetime after of never having to say shit like 'I didn't understand what they were saying, I couldn't read what this said, I'd watch that but I'm not comfortable I'd get it' and a whole plethora of other excuses for not wanting to put work into something. After 3 months, you could go back to playing games all day. But now you have long lastingly enriched your life with knowledge, instead of fleeting, passive entertainment,
I'm not scolding you, if you don't want to learn Jgo, that's fine. I just don't get why anyone would keep torturing themselves by trying to learn the bare minimum and be barely efficient. It's like saying I want to learn how to build a car, so every day I spend an hour or two reading a manual or having a youtube video in the back of whatever I'm really focusing on. Then someone asks for help with their car and I'm like.. well..I'm not that good... Isn't their obvious response ' then what the fuck were you doing this last year?'
I'm also not telling you to use my method, if it's not for you, that's fine. But the method you're using now is worthless too. If you want to play fallout4, just play it lol. Why pretend youre studying by throwing on something to listen to but not giving any methodology or effort behind it to turn it into real learning. You're already killing yourself, just in a different way. Compromising with yourself to trick yourself into thinking you're doing something right (like people who say I can eat this chocolate cake if I go to the gym tonight) will never, ever work. That's a child's way of thinking.
TheSporkWithin
Member
That's way too harsh. Jintor flat out said that having a podcast on while playing Fallout wasn't "studying," but there's definitely nothing wrong with having something that pricks your ears with recognizable phrases and words while doing something unrelated.
Harvesting words from media as you work through it is far from worthless. It's essentially what I've been doing for the past year, and in that time I've gone from passing the N4 by a rather slim margin, to being able to confidently read novels at a junior high school level with occasional use of a dictionary to confirm meanings of new words (as I enter them into my ever-growing anki decks). It's not as fast as cramming all day every day, sure, but it's hardly worthless. As long as you're diligently pursuing ever-more-challenging material and reviewing the stuff you pull from it, it's way better than traditional textbook learning once you're past the elementary stages.
It also varies enormously depending on what you're trying to read or play. Sure, Dragon Quest isn't going to get you much useful vocabulary or sentence structure, but things like the Ace Attorney series or Steins;Gate are filled with useful stuff. Similarly, reading anything in Shonen Jump is pretty much a waste of time, but if you're reading stuff by Urasawa Naoki or Asano Inio you'll get a lot of exposure to natural dialogues and varied vocabulary.
EDIT* I should also add that reading/gaming and reviewing the vocab is not the only study I'm doing, and I doubt it's the only thing Jintor is doing either. I'm working through Kanzen Master N2 grammar, doing at least 2-4 pages (4-10 grammar points) per day, while reviewing older ones from N3 as well. I put in a fair amount of study time each day, but I don't want to put literally all of my free time into it. Instead I play text-heavy games or read a book in the rest of my free-time to reinforce what I've been studying and keep improving my reading speed.
Harvesting words from media as you work through it is far from worthless. It's essentially what I've been doing for the past year, and in that time I've gone from passing the N4 by a rather slim margin, to being able to confidently read novels at a junior high school level with occasional use of a dictionary to confirm meanings of new words (as I enter them into my ever-growing anki decks). It's not as fast as cramming all day every day, sure, but it's hardly worthless. As long as you're diligently pursuing ever-more-challenging material and reviewing the stuff you pull from it, it's way better than traditional textbook learning once you're past the elementary stages.
It also varies enormously depending on what you're trying to read or play. Sure, Dragon Quest isn't going to get you much useful vocabulary or sentence structure, but things like the Ace Attorney series or Steins;Gate are filled with useful stuff. Similarly, reading anything in Shonen Jump is pretty much a waste of time, but if you're reading stuff by Urasawa Naoki or Asano Inio you'll get a lot of exposure to natural dialogues and varied vocabulary.
EDIT* I should also add that reading/gaming and reviewing the vocab is not the only study I'm doing, and I doubt it's the only thing Jintor is doing either. I'm working through Kanzen Master N2 grammar, doing at least 2-4 pages (4-10 grammar points) per day, while reviewing older ones from N3 as well. I put in a fair amount of study time each day, but I don't want to put literally all of my free time into it. Instead I play text-heavy games or read a book in the rest of my free-time to reinforce what I've been studying and keep improving my reading speed.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
I'm not his mother, teacher, boss, or anything so no, I'm not being harsh or even passing judgment.
What I'm responding to is him saying using the whiteboard 3 month study would be 'killing himself'. Fine, but in my opinion what he's doing now is equally killing himself, it's just easier for him to swallow because it doesn't affect his way of spending his personal time the way my method would. It's more passively torturing him than actively.
Because I don't think he's studying Japanese leisurely for the love of language. He clearly had a goal in mind with Japanese, and from his usual posts in this and the living in Japan thread, he clearly hasn't accomplished them. So a step needs to be taken back, no? Isn't it a fair assessment by anyone that if he continues on his current course he will not accomplish his goal? My method might not be the one for him, but it's at least a suggestion.
The only thing that might make me come off as 'harsh' is that I know I'm talking to an alt.
Let's jump out of that and look at it from a real world example.
When I meet new people, the topic of Japan inevitably comes up. The first thing they usually ask is 'oh wow, so you speak Japanese?' to which I respond yes. Now picture someone in jintor's position going home. He tells them about Japan and the inevitable question pops up. How does he want to answer? The way if wants to answer is the amount of effort he should put in. If he's happy with 'so-so', that's great. That's totally fine. But his earlier comment about that podcast was a self-jab saying 'I listen to it but I don't know what I'm listening to' which he now goes into more detail about by saying 'I throw it on as background noise when I'm doing something else I care more about.'
So..doesn't that answer why you can't understand any of it? Are you ok with that? Oh, you are? Ok carry on then. Oh, you're not? So let's discuss what we can do.
The end.
What I'm responding to is him saying using the whiteboard 3 month study would be 'killing himself'. Fine, but in my opinion what he's doing now is equally killing himself, it's just easier for him to swallow because it doesn't affect his way of spending his personal time the way my method would. It's more passively torturing him than actively.
Because I don't think he's studying Japanese leisurely for the love of language. He clearly had a goal in mind with Japanese, and from his usual posts in this and the living in Japan thread, he clearly hasn't accomplished them. So a step needs to be taken back, no? Isn't it a fair assessment by anyone that if he continues on his current course he will not accomplish his goal? My method might not be the one for him, but it's at least a suggestion.
The only thing that might make me come off as 'harsh' is that I know I'm talking to an alt.
Let's jump out of that and look at it from a real world example.
When I meet new people, the topic of Japan inevitably comes up. The first thing they usually ask is 'oh wow, so you speak Japanese?' to which I respond yes. Now picture someone in jintor's position going home. He tells them about Japan and the inevitable question pops up. How does he want to answer? The way if wants to answer is the amount of effort he should put in. If he's happy with 'so-so', that's great. That's totally fine. But his earlier comment about that podcast was a self-jab saying 'I listen to it but I don't know what I'm listening to' which he now goes into more detail about by saying 'I throw it on as background noise when I'm doing something else I care more about.'
So..doesn't that answer why you can't understand any of it? Are you ok with that? Oh, you are? Ok carry on then. Oh, you're not? So let's discuss what we can do.
The end.
Jintor, I only brought up that way of study because I'm finding it works for me. If what you're doing is working for you, then keep at it. but you've had digs at yourself in this thread a few times over the last month or so, and i feel it could be a way to get you where you say you wanna be. i'm giving feedback on something that's working, in hopes that you maybe pick it up or someone else lurking.
i'm not gonna lie and say it isn't tough. i don't have a lot of free time and i am managing to find time for it now, so i think anybody can fit it in.
i will say though, i rarely call out anybody and the way they live their life...but, yeah, games are fun, but why would you waste the time you have over there playing fallout 4..go out there and live
i'm not gonna lie and say it isn't tough. i don't have a lot of free time and i am managing to find time for it now, so i think anybody can fit it in.
i will say though, i rarely call out anybody and the way they live their life...but, yeah, games are fun, but why would you waste the time you have over there playing fallout 4..go out there and live
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Let me clarify something. I don't have any issue with someone playing games or spending their time how they want. I love games too.
My issue with the games were coming from two perspectives:
1. If you do my method, you have to sacrifice that and EVERYTHING ELSE to find the time to do it. Hence, throw out the games, throw out the girls, throw out the tv, whatever. 3 months of sacrificing everything you like for the greater improvement. Same as a diet. Throw out the junk food.
2. If you're trying to 'study' while playing games (as in, not using the game to study), what do you the think the natural result will be? This isn't like watching tv while on a treadmill. It would be if his listening was that level, but it's not. I listened to a bit of the podcast he mentioned a few days back. It was very casual convo. If he can't follow that, that means more DEDICATED and not PERIPHERAL learning is required. So why waste the time?
Those were my points.
I do not care how anyone spends their free time.
My issue with the games were coming from two perspectives:
1. If you do my method, you have to sacrifice that and EVERYTHING ELSE to find the time to do it. Hence, throw out the games, throw out the girls, throw out the tv, whatever. 3 months of sacrificing everything you like for the greater improvement. Same as a diet. Throw out the junk food.
2. If you're trying to 'study' while playing games (as in, not using the game to study), what do you the think the natural result will be? This isn't like watching tv while on a treadmill. It would be if his listening was that level, but it's not. I listened to a bit of the podcast he mentioned a few days back. It was very casual convo. If he can't follow that, that means more DEDICATED and not PERIPHERAL learning is required. So why waste the time?
Those were my points.
I do not care how anyone spends their free time.
Porcile
Member
Poor ol' Jintor - haha. Will probably come in here and be like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xR-FLwonazA
To be fair, as pointed out, he makes a rod for his own back in here by qualifying a lot of the things he posts with "I don't really understand much but...". I have certainly been guilty of doing this, especially in my student days and even now, and it only really serves to wind people up because you're either, a) just bullshitting and know it, or b) why aren't you doing the things which will stop you from having to say that every time.
To be fair, as pointed out, he makes a rod for his own back in here by qualifying a lot of the things he posts with "I don't really understand much but...". I have certainly been guilty of doing this, especially in my student days and even now, and it only really serves to wind people up because you're either, a) just bullshitting and know it, or b) why aren't you doing the things which will stop you from having to say that every time.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
When I say yes I usually qualify it with 'at a business or native level thanks to studying, living, and working there. Would you like a ride in my Maserati?'
Porcile
Member
In any learning environment, even one as small and focused as this, it's still annoying when people do it. Especially when later accompanied with a fairly dismissive post about an actual method which will you give the means to stop having to say "I'm not very good, but..." every single time. It's something most people are guilty of doing though. You don't want to be project yourself as being good, because you know there are people better than you, so you play the humble card. Thus annoying the people who know you are better than you let on. At the same time you alienate the people who genuinely aren't as good as you, because you put yourself on their skill level even though it isn't true.
There's no living in this town if I have to work the next day.
I'll respond to the rest later, but suffice to say - I'm unconvinced it would work for me. I know the way my brain works.
And if my method is worthless, why do I feel like I'm improving? Maybe it's a fucking illusion. Awesome
Porcile
Member
How can anyone know you're improving if you say things which constantly dismiss how good you really are. For all anyone in here knows, you could be great in Japanese, but we don't know that because you always say how bad your Japanese is.
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