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[Jintor]

Hey, if you want me to stop with the self depracation, that's easy enough

 

[Porcile]

Do it. What purpose does it serve other than to misinform people about your abilities and thus be unable to help you in any useful way. Blanket statements just lead to the things like the post from expert which started all this.

 

[Jintor]

As long as he'll cut in to say when we're fucking up since that pisses him off too

 

[I'm an expert]

HM? What am I pissed about? I'm not pissed about anything. I've never even been to Japan.

 

[Porcile]

Sometimes I do genuinely wonder if you even speak Japanese at all, and whether all this isn't somehow an incredibly elaborate ruse. haha. A useful one to be fair though.

 

[I'm an expert]

I always say, don't trust anything anyone on the internet says. Ever.

 

[Porcile]

Hmmm, I think I done goofed on the grammar portion. I've been wondering why it's taking me so long to work through it, even just basic basic stuff. Right now, I have it set out like a list of instructions, and from those instructions I write a sentence. It's taking me ages just to get through even the most basic grammar. Now that I think about it, I'm not really pulling much out from brain because I'm seeing the Japanese in front of me and using that as the basis to build a sentence. So now I'm thinking of working it more like kanji vocab.

So my daily grammar list would be set out more like:

• Item between two other items.
• Direct object particle.
• Informal conjugation for "to come"
• Wrote a letter to someone.
• Won't you ____?.
• "with" particle.

And using those cues I just write the necessary grammar needed. ___と___のあいだに, ___に手紙を書きました or 行きませんか or whatever it may be. That way I'm pulling the Japanese from my head rather than reading the instructions and then writing it.

Is this more in line with how you set your grammar portion up?

 

[RangerBAD]

I have an off topic question for I'm an expert. What years did you fansub?

 

[Resilient]

When I say yes I usually qualify it with 'at a business or native level thanks to studying, living, and working there. Would you like a ride in my Maserati?'

Gallardo > Maserati

 

[Resilient]

Porcile, posting my method so you can see how I'm doing it.

Kanji

Simple - I create a writing list the night before using a generated list from this website, Kanji Cards. They also list all the N4,3,2,1 Kanji here. Each link to each Kanji has a bunch of words you can use, though it doesn't hurt to look up whether the Kanji forms part of a verb, and add that to your writing list.

My writing list is sorted as followed. A header for the day, so I can navigate a mega list of 2300 Kanji when I'm done, in lots of 25. And then formatted like this, with words that I think are good to know, or may be relevant to what I want to do. an example from Day 7.

あお、あおー、あおいblue, green
• せいしょうねんyouth, young person
• あおそらblue sky
• あおじゃしんblueprint, plan
よ、さんじゅう、ヤ、ソウ、セイworld, society, public, generation
• せかいthe world, society
• せだいgeneration
• せかいてきglobal
やすい、やすらかcheap, peaceful
• あんぜんsafety; security
• ちあんpublic order
• あんていstability, equilibrium

Pretty straight forward. If the common word I'm using has a complicated new Kanji in it, I write it but don't add it to the list purely because of time. Sometimes in my list I will include the Kanji to speed things up and save me having to look for it. I've now "learnt" them though because I've learned the words and it just sticks now, I dunno.

いく、おこなう
• いく
• おこなうto perform, to do
• ぎんこう
• こうどう
• こういdeed, act, conduct　為「ため」advantage, benefit
からだ、からち、テイ、タイcounter for images
• ぐたいてきconcrete, tangible具たい的
• ぜんたいwhole, entirety
• たいけんpersonal experienceたい験

Note, I already know からだ means body, health, so I don't even write it and just opt to learn other words that include 体。

Grammar

I use 日本語チャレンジN4文法と読む練習、日本語チャレンジN３文法、日本語チャレンジN２文法 because it lists the grammar, tells you what it does. It's partially in English but I don't have time to use a Japanese only book and I like the way it outlines it. Once you've read the point, spend 5 min on it, then absorb it and move on.

The grammar patterns are laid out like this generally with examples.

冷蔵庫に入れたほうがいいです。
• ずっとにほんにいるなら、高校に行ったほうがいいですよ。
• 彼女に優しくしたほうがいいです。
• 太るから、あまり食べないほうがいいです。
• 仕事は辞めないほうがいい。

So when I do the grammar portion, I write out one sentence of those 5. Sometimes i do the same ones, sometimes i do different ones. And ... that's it. It works so far.

Any tips you may have , pointers, ways to improve it - let me know. Anybody - I'd like to streamline this all further, but I also don't want this to be insufficient and then my time studying...not properly utilised.

 

[urfe]

Let's study for a day for N1 putting it all into the short term memory!

Found these old textbooks from past times taking it.

Should really study a little more earnestly afterwards.

Unrelated, anyone take 日本語検定 before?

Forgot how good this textbook is! (the one on the left)

 

[Porcile]

Grammar

I use 日本語チャレンジN4文法と読む練習、日本語チャレンジN３文法、日本語チャレンジN２文法 because it lists the grammar, tells you what it does. It's partially in English but I don't have time to use a Japanese only book and I like the way it outlines it. Once you've read the point, spend 5 min on it, then absorb it and move on.

The grammar patterns are laid out like this generally with examples.

冷蔵庫に入れたほうがいいです。
• ずっとにほんにいるなら、高校に行ったほうがいいですよ。
• 彼女に優しくしたほうがいいです。
• 太るから、あまり食べないほうがいいです。
• 仕事は辞めないほうがいい。

So when I do the grammar portion, I write out one sentence of those 5. Sometimes i do the same ones, sometimes i do different ones. And ... that's it. It works so far.
.

Whats your trigger for bringing out this stuff in Japanese though? Like, when it comes to going over a grammar point you've done the previous day, are you using a Japanese explanation or an English one. At the moment, my Japanese ability is simply not at the level where I can learn straight from Japanese, so I need the English approximation in order to bring out the thing I need to express in Japanese. To do this I try to keep it as vague as possible. For example, one such grammar point on my list is this:

• After I [first action] I will [second action].

That's it. Then in my head I think in order to express that in Japanese I need to use verb-te, verb-masu. So rather than thinking of that grammar rule as a whole sentence, I'm treating it like a small tool I can pluck from my memory where necessary, and I can fill in the gaps with whatever I need. Eventually, I won't need the English because through reading and speaking the Japanese will become a natural reflex. I'm just not really sure if this is the correct way to be going about it, but this is the closest I can think of in terms of treating grammar as vocabulary.

 

[Jintor]

What do you find more helpful, in terms of recalling things (first is the prompt, after the arrow is the intended result)

Pronunciation + meaning --> kanji
Kanji --> pronounciation + meaning
Meaning --> kanji + pronunciation

I guess what I want to know is if it's more helpful for you to have more prompts or less. I usually have the one, but not sure about its efficiency.

 

[I'm an expert]

will respond more detail later, but I always used english as the trigger for the beginning. for grammar though, once you move up to around level 2, the trigger can be two things. one, a japanese synonym or definition for the grammar point. see how urfe's pic has that next to ~mai? Two, an example sentence where you pull the relevant grammar point out and practice its usage. Two is for ones where there really is no good english definition, which there are plenty of.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Let's study for a day for N1 putting it all into the short term memory!

Found these old textbooks from past times taking it.

Should really study a little more earnestly afterwards.

Unrelated, anyone take 日本語検定 before?

Forgot how good this textbook is! (the one on the left)

You're taking N1 on Sunday, too?

I haven't ever really looked into the 日本語検定. I'm honestly not really sure what it's for.

 

[urfe]

You're taking N1 on Sunday, too?

I haven't ever really looked into the 日本語検定. I'm honestly not really sure what it's for.

Yeah. Fourth time. Studied hard once in 2011 and almost passed. Took twice afterwards but didn't study due to work/laziness.

Didn't study much this time too, but Japanese is improving with job.

日本語検定 is just for Japanese people to test their Japanese I think (as 漢字検定 is for kanji). Prob little practical reason for a foreigner to take it (unless a translator wants to rack up qualifications perhaps?) but 2級 is apparenlty 社会人レベル.

I want to start taking it just as motivation to continue studying.

Edit: people's motivation here has really motivated myself as well. I hope to keep on studying hard after this pre-test marathon. Good times!

 

[urfe]

Is this what people's whiteboards look like?

I'll be writing pages all day.

 

[I'm an expert]

cot damn mang.. dat handwriting is a tragedy.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Yeah. Fourth time. Studied hard once in 2011 and almost passed. Took twice afterwards but didn't study due to work/laziness.

Didn't study much this time too, but Japanese is improving with job.

日本語検定 is just for Japanese people to test their Japanese I think (as 漢字検定 is for kanji). Prob little practical reason for a foreigner to take it (unless a translator wants to rack up qualifications perhaps?) but 2級 is apparenlty 社会人レベル.

I want to start taking it just as motivation to continue studying.

Edit: people's motivation here has really motivated myself as well. I hope to keep on studying hard after this pre-test marathon. Good times!

According to the website (http://www.nihongokentei.jp/about/aboutnk/about.html), it's for all people who speak Japanese, which is a bit of a vague definition.

The sample test questions were pretty easy:
http://www.nihongokentei.jp/info/mesure/mesure.html

Anyway, good luck taking N1!

 

[urfe]

cot damn mang.. dat handwriting is a tragedy.

Yeah, it sucks in English and Japanese. Should really do something about that.

 

[Resilient]

Best of luck urfe, hope you pass it tomorrow!

 

[Resilient]

Yep, this Kanji repetition is an assault on the brain. I've managed to create a good strat, where my writing list, any words I put on it that have a Kanji I haven';t encountered yet, I just write the Kanji there so I don't have to look the whole word up in a J dictionary everytime. But the actual Kanji I'm trying to learn, I need to remember it.

Whats your trigger for bringing out this stuff in Japanese though? Like, when it comes to going over a grammar point you've done the previous day, are you using a Japanese explanation or an English one. At the moment, my Japanese ability is simply not at the level where I can learn straight from Japanese, so I need the English approximation in order to bring out the thing I need to express in Japanese. To do this I try to keep it as vague as possible. For example, one such grammar point on my list is this:

• After I [first action] I will [second action].

That's it. Then in my head I think in order to express that in Japanese I need to use verb-te, verb-masu. So rather than thinking of that grammar rule as a whole sentence, I'm treating it like a small tool I can pluck from my memory where necessary, and I can fill in the gaps with whatever I need. Eventually, I won't need the English because through reading and speaking the Japanese will become a natural reflex. I'm just not really sure if this is the correct way to be going about it, but this is the closest I can think of in terms of treating grammar as vocabulary.

I'll post a pic in a second. The book I use is exactly like what urfe posted, except it has the English point there instead of it being in Japanese.

It's pretty easy for me at the moment because I know these patterns well, I just never mastered them. Give it another week when I start scratching the end of N3 and the start of N2, I'll definitely slow the fuck down on grammar.

 

[GSR]

Took a practice N1 exam, passed but not by so much that I feel 100% safe. Lots more 文字・語彙練習 tomorrow!

 

[Porcile]

Except for the fact that by the end i'll be doing 2200 unique kanji daily, I actually expect the kanji to get a little easier, only because knowing the radicals and stroke order becomes a lot easier the more you know. At the moment, going from having never written kanji ever, to cramming my head with 250 including radicals and stroke order in the space of seven days, is taking a lot of brain power for sure. However, days five and six were the days where I learn the most kanji in a single day (42 and 40 respectively). After that its down to more like a 33 per-day average. Anyway, I am just over 1/10th of the way through!

 

[Kurita]

Somewhat glad my Interpreting teacher "forced" us to do intensive N2 grammar tests where we only had 10 minutes to do 30 questions, I'll be more than ready for tomorrow since I'll have more time to think.

Unrelated, I managed to get a perfect score on the TOEIC exam last week, yaaaay. Obviously won't manage to do the same thing tomorrow but hey... lol

 

[Resilient]

Porcile, keep all your whiteboard markers. neva 4get.

Hopefully a lot of the N2 and N1 peeps pass tomorrow? Looks like a few are gonna ace it!

 

[I'm an expert]

Hmmm, I think I done goofed on the grammar portion. I've been wondering why it's taking me so long to work through it, even just basic basic stuff. Right now, I have it set out like a list of instructions, and from those instructions I write a sentence. It's taking me ages just to get through even the most basic grammar. Now that I think about it, I'm not really pulling much out from brain because I'm seeing the Japanese in front of me and using that as the basis to build a sentence. So now I'm thinking of working it more like kanji vocab.

So my daily grammar list would be set out more like:

• Item between two other items.
• Direct object particle.
• Informal conjugation for "to come"
• Wrote a letter to someone.
• Won't you ____?.
• "with" particle.

And using those cues I just write the necessary grammar needed. ___と___のあいだに, ___に手紙を書きました or 行きませんか or whatever it may be. That way I'm pulling the Japanese from my head rather than reading the instructions and then writing it.

Is this more in line with how you set your grammar portion up?

I would say a lot of my grammar learning also happened from just reading the books and using the blue/yellow bibles in the op. So I learned the usage and meaning through those but used the whiteboard method to put them in my toolbox. If that makes sense. Grammar needs a bit more info than just the meaning, again, like how urfe's pic gives similar grammar points and examples.

I have an off topic question for I'm an expert. What years did you fansub?

The actual years of vhs subbing were 95-99, but I was involved in A LOT of early digisubs because I was in Japan at the time and it was a huge deal back then for teams. My three claims to be fame would be meeting Val Lam, being involved (with rz productions) in getting eps 192-199 of dbz subbed, and being in the irc channel when 'keikaku means plan' was born. Trying not to give too much away that leads back to me. =/

What do you find more helpful, in terms of recalling things (first is the prompt, after the arrow is the intended result)

Pronunciation + meaning --> kanji
Kanji --> pronounciation + meaning
Meaning --> kanji + pronunciation

I guess what I want to know is if it's more helpful for you to have more prompts or less. I usually have the one, but not sure about its efficiency.

Meaning. The other two don't force you to pull the Japanese out.

Took a practice N1 exam, passed but not by so much that I feel 100% safe. Lots more 文字・語彙練習 tomorrow!

I was looking at this page and my wife's eye caught the pic urfe posted. It lead to us taking the quick jlpt1 sample test. We each got one wrong. Me a reading comp, her a listening. We both thought that should be flipped the other way lol.

 

[RangerBAD]

The actual years of vhs subbing were 95-99, but I was involved in A LOT of early digisubs because I was in Japan at the time and it was a huge deal back then for teams. My three claims to be fame would be meeting Val Lam, being involved (with rz productions) in getting eps 192-199 of dbz subbed, and being in the irc channel when 'keikaku means plan' was born. Trying not to give too much away that leads back to me. =/

As long you weren't part of the Anime-Junkies (you know what they're responsible for). I thought I might have known who you were since I was part of the scene in the early 2000s. I did some editing for a few years. I'm not sure now since I remembered you're married and I'm pretty sure the guy I'm thinking of is not married currently.

 

[I'm an expert]

It's possible paths crossed or similar circles were had. I've randomly bumped into a few fansub people on gaf. The community, for obvious reasons, was insanely toxic even from the early days. Minus a few select people/groups, it's always just a bunch of kids. When digisubs came about we had a lot of problems with quality control, especially as the 24 hours from air promise that a lot of groups made became the standard. Before that there was a sense of localizing stuff, but that's also because all the time existed due to shows being old. When the holy trios were at their peak at the same time it was such a shit show to get timed scripts asap.

 

[RangerBAD]

It's possible paths crossed or similar circles were had. I've randomly bumped into a few fansub people on gaf. The community, for obvious reasons, was insanely toxic even from the early days. Minus a few select people/groups, it's always just a bunch of kids. When digisubs came about we had a lot of problems with quality control, especially as the 24 hours from air promise that a lot of groups made became the standard. Before that there was a sense of localizing stuff, but that's also because all the time existed due to shows being old. When the holy trios were at their peak at the same time it was such a shit show to get timed scripts asap.

Thanks, Naruto. I can't say for sure because I don't know what your nick was on IRC.

 

[Desmond]

My 語彙力 is gonna screw me over tomorrow (N1). I wish they held the test here twice a year like in Japan.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I was looking at this page and my wife's eye caught the pic urfe posted. It lead to us taking the quick jlpt1 sample test. We each got one wrong. Me a reading comp, her a listening. We both thought that should be flipped the other way lol.

Some of the JLPT questions seem legit unfair in that any reasonable person would accept one or more answer as correct, but they arbitrarily (?) decide that only one is the correct answer. It's not common, but I've seen a few practice questions that definitely fall under this category.

Anyway, I had planned to study for the N1, and even got some books for it, but it's less than 24 hours away now, so I'll just go in and see how it goes. I'm not worried about failing, but I was thinking about trying to ace it.

 

[Resilient]

Some of the JLPT questions seem legit unfair in that any reasonable person would accept one or more answer as correct, but they arbitrarily (?) decide that only one is the correct answer. It's not common, but I've seen a few practice questions that definitely fall under this category.

Anyway, I had planned to study for the N1, and even got some books for it, but it's less than 24 hours away now, so I'll just go in and see how it goes. I'm not worried about failing, but I was thinking about trying to ace it.

You took it 10 years ago and live in Japan atm right? lol you are probably bound to ace it!

 

[Deleted member 17706]

You took it 10 years ago and live in Japan atm right? lol you are probably bound to ace it!

I don't live in Japan at the moment, but I do go multiple times per year and use Japanese primarily at work. And yeah, I took the JLPT 1 ten years ago and passed it without any problems.

I'm not worried about passing, but I'm sure it's unlikely I'll get 100% of the problems right. Bound to screw up one a couple at least.

 

[urfe]

I'm going through my pre test 反省 on how I should have studied harder and all that.

Fluking and passing won't mean much (well, may make 転職 easier). Need to focus on reading and writing, especially writing.

 

[Resilient]

Just got to my venue now. Good luck today fellow weebs.

 

[urfe]

Going better than I thought.

This one passage about painting mountains really fucked me up though.

 

[Resilient]

Well that was fun. If anything gave me more reason to put every possible moment into studying. Listening needs some serious work.

Expert, my grammar study is basically this: I'll write just the pattern itself and not the sentence (was too time consuming) - some examples.

~かどうか
~なければならない
~たらどう
~てまらう

I'll read the meaning of it first and then write it. Is this ..lazy? My grammar whiteboard shit took about 30minutes today doing it this way, compared 1hr30 using an example sentence.

When I write them I write how it's formed, eg if it's verb stem, plain form or whatever. Just..want to make sure I'm on the right track. Both ways have their pros , making sentences is good for vocab building, but is time consuming. Where as just the actual pattern itself shaves the time but seems lazy.

Because I'm still doing N4 stuff it's not a major issue but when I start the late N3 gear (3 days) and the N2 (10-12 days) I want to make sure I'm not betraying myself..

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Without the sentence for context, I imagine it will be difficult to properly understand the meaning.

 

[Porcile]

you learn the actual usage of the grammar (from a textbook etc) prior to the whiteboard, and the whiteboard is simply the means by which you keep it in your memory. Therefore you just need a trigger (English definition or whatever) which isn't actually the thing you're trying to pluck from memory. Having the grammar point there in front of you removes the need for you to actually remember what that grammar point was. This is my interpretation of it though, I could be way off base.

 

[Resilient]

Fuck, you're right. I feel stupid now, that's how I should have been doing it. That's fucked up though, no wonder grammar was taking you so long Porcile..damn. I think I know what must be done. create a grammar list using English, cause they will be the triggers. Then grab what I need from memory for the whiteboard. Porcile you're a genius thanks for showing me what was in front of me. Zefah, definitely required lol, I've got textbooks with worked examples so that will be my 5 minutes of learning for the new 10 each day.

 

[urfe]

The answers I answered confidently were due to work.

Listening was much harder than expected for me.

Ah well, maybe I'll study better for July.

 

[Desmond]

お疲れ様

Another 4 hours to go before I sit my test.

 

[Mozz-eyes]

That N1 was a bit of a struggle today. I stuck pretty religiously to the Kanzen Master books and the grammar section covered basically none of that. Not too hopeful.

 

[I'm an expert]

Apparently we have a bunch of jlpt1 masters in this thread, yet no one posts anything related to high level study.

 

[Porcile]

I'm always surprised when a Japanese topic pops up outside this thread and there's like a bunch of people who are like "Yep, I'm fluent!" and I never see them in this thread. Not that I think they're lying, but there's only about a dozen or so active posters in here, when maybe there could be so many more! I guess they're just talking about all the games and stuff they do in Japanese, rather than helping us dumbasses who don't know shit.

 

[Mozz-eyes]

Apparently we have a bunch of jlpt1 masters in this thread, yet no one posts anything related to high level study.

I'd like to say that's because everyone's studying but... eh...

Been lurking the thread for a while and certainly feeling inadequate in the face of such demons haha.

 

[I'm an expert]

Exaggerated example for effect incoming:

If you were practicing some bball, and Jordan came in the gym wanting to shoot around with you, would you not play with him? The answer to that simple hypothetical describes a lot about how a person sees themselves and others.

Anyway, I'll take my leave from this thread.

I'm always surprised when a Japanese topic pops up outside this thread and there's like a bunch of people who are like "Yep, I'm fluent!" and I never see them in this thread. Not that I think they're lying, but there's only about a dozen or so active posters in here, when maybe there could be so many more! I guess they're just talking about all the games and stuff they do in Japanese, rather than helping us dumbasses who don't know shit.

There are like 3 non-natives on gaf I can vouch for when it comes to high level jgo (again, I don't like the word fluent). Not saying there's not more, but when you do a little digging you always realize the others that claim to be are..being a bit overconfident. This isn't something I'd give a fuck about but there are so many jland and jgo related threads on this forum (compared to any other country) that you can't help notice when those posters come out.

 

[urfe]

Apparently we have a bunch of jlpt1 masters in this thread, yet no one posts anything related to high level study.

I never really found any point. I've been looking at the nuances of 至る recently, but it's just a matter of properly looking at my texts, perhaps asking the teacher of my weekly class and looking out for it. I come here mainly for the motivation from seeing people study, and to see if I can answer any questions.

Anyways, more for my own benefit, I'm going to write out how I want to study now.

Kanji: As kanji always need refreshing, I hope to do review daily. Not really to memorize, but more familiarize. I'm not sure how many a day, but a large number so they're I my head when I'm reading.

Business mails: I have a book my wife used years ago written about various business email templates. I was planning on using it as a reference, but I think it's a better idea to go through it template by template, and perhaps write my own email after.

Novels: I haven't been mindful enough when reading. I get excited when I understand, and have long vocab lists, but I'm not conscious enough about structure of word usage. Also, I really should be using a Japanese-Japanese dictionary.

Essays: I should read more essays, either blog posts, newspaper articles, or weeklies. Really, I should read all. When going over grammar, I should focus on what's used in formal writing. I have some textbooks from grad school. I'd be good to be able to write a lot more eloquently.

Speaking: I need to be more mindful of what I'm saying. I speak with fluency (meaning I don't stutter or stop, not that what I say is comprehensible), and need to take a step back and think about what I'm saying and how I'm saying it. I also need to listen to others more and literally take note of how they speak. How my colleague brought up a complaint with another company was magical.

Anyways, that's where my head is now. 四字熟語 and ことわざ can wait.

 

[I'm an expert]

Definitely didn't mean about actual grammar points. If you asked something like 'how do I use blah' I'd just ignore it. I've written my reasons before.

I meant things like study methods, practice methods, real life situations, and other analysis of language learning.

Like, reading the list you just wrote.. it seems like you got trapped in a very common spot that those who stay in Japan (who have more than basic knowledge but not completely advanced) seem to get due to over-confidence. I know you can understand most of everything around you, I know you can read most normal stuff, I know you can express most ideas, I know you can live your daily life without issue. But if I dropped you into very specific situations, you'd struggle. If I told you to listen or read specific things you'd get lost.

That's the level that separates most people. And even if you thought you were better than intermediate, it doesn't mean your study methods can't be basic.