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[Deleted member 17706]

I felt like that too.

I think the only way to really deal with it is to just stop translating and begin understanding the language on its own terms. Easier said than done, I know, but the sooner you stop trying to understand Japanese within the context of English, the sooner you can truly understand the language and start gaining that ever important feeling of what is and isn't 'natural'.

On the subject of JLPT kanji, are there many JLPT kanji that we know of which are not on the jouyou list and vice versa? Is there some sort of comparison out there? I'm guessing perhaps there's not anything definitive, since there isn't an official JLPT kanji list. Are there any still sometimes used kanji missing from the jouyou kanji for whatever reason? Where can I find these kanji?

I know these two "lists" are the minimum, so what's after jouyou/JLPT? Even if I spend another two months straight doing kanji, I'd have covered all of the (unofficial) JLPT and jouyou kanji with some time to spare, and I'd still have about two weeks before I had to fly to Japan. It's not like I'd be doing much else in those two weeks, no point spending money and shit. I can basically just keep learning and learning till the end of March if I really wanted to. Not that it's hugely enjoyable tbh, but while I'm knee deep in the shit...

Start reading novels, etc. and begin creating your own lists of Kanji you aren't initially familiar with.

You could always start studying for the Kanji Kentei, too, I suppose.

 

[RangerBAD]

I think the only way to really deal with it is to just stop translating and begin understanding the language on its own terms. Easier said than done, I know, but the sooner you stop trying to understand Japanese within the context of English, the sooner you can truly understand the language and start gaining that ever important feeling of what is and isn't 'natural'.

I sort of only do the translating thing when it's something new or I'm trying to work through. Tobira is teaching it in English counterparts. I'm not sure if you mean you know in the sense that you've eliminated your mind going to English? I sort of feel like my brain is working in that sense some of the time.

Level 1 Kanji Kentei sounds hard as shit. How many Japanese people are able to pass that?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I sort of only do the translating thing when it's something new or I'm trying to work through. Tobira is teaching it in English counterparts. I'm not sure if you mean you know in the sense that you've eliminated your mind going to English? I sort of feel like my brain is working in that sense some of the time.

Level 1 Kanji Kentei sounds hard as shit. How many Japanese people are able to pass that?

Very few.

I just checked the 2014 results (first session) and only 102 of 1,427 examinees, or about 7%, managed to pass the highest level. Seems like it's typical for less than 10% of those who take Level 1 to actually pass.

 

[I'm an expert]

Porcile did you ever mention where in jland you were going.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I've talked at length as to why I prefer "slow burn study" in previous posts so I'll only reply to this one point.



I want to clarify that with "slow study" (as I have outlined it), you would still be studying grammar points, kanji, vocab, etc. The difference is the pacing and output. 2 years vs. 3 months and mainly reading/listening vs. mainly speaking/writing your own sentences. I selected 2 years because that is a realistic number for most people who are taking language classes once or twice a week. If someone were incredibly dedicated, he could probably do it for under a year but it's a stretch if he wasn't living in Japan.

You will trade off the immediate satisfaction of knowing a bunch of stuff early in your studies for an organic understanding of the language. Organic understanding only comes from extensive practice, which you cannot cram. But it works like compound interest since language builds on itself. As the learner would be confident in the things he does know, he'd be more confident in learning and absorbing new bits of language. When studying higher level grammar, he'd have less trouble and he won't need to go back to relearn things he missed because he already has a solid understanding of the base.

Also, this method does not focus on "gaining" the opportunity to use and learn practical Japanese. You will make the opportunity instead.

Fair enough. Maybe I'm getting hung up on how various people are defining what the "base" of the language should be. To me, just about everything covered in the JLPT1 is equally important if fluency and using the language professionally is your goal. That's kind of what I think of as a solid base. Get to that level and you'll be able to study and work in Japan using Japanese without too much trouble, but it's not like you won't still be learning a lot every day for quite some time.

 

[Porcile]

Porcile did you ever mention where in jland you were going.

I didn't find out until very recently, and still don't know where exactly, but I will be somewhere in and around the Kanagawa prefecture. Probably not a bad starting point for a fresh off the boat Japan-baby like myself.

 

[I'm an expert]

Back in the day, getting placements in the greater Tokyo area was like the holy grail. Recently, like the last ~8 years, it seems it's much easier for people to just go where they want to for esl, even with the private/placement companies.

 

[AzureSkies]

shitty question, but I was learning Japanese earlier in the year a few months ago, I learned hiragana and katakana, and was starting on vocab and kanji when I ended up stopping for a while, mainly out of frustration with kanji resources.

I signed up for weekly Japanese classes in college, and I have my textbooks. Does anyone have any suggestions for how I should prepare for them in advance? I might just brush up on hiragana, katakana and vocab.

 

[Porcile]

Back in the day, getting placements in the greater Tokyo area was like the holy grail. Recently, like the last ~8 years, it seems it's much easier for people to just go where they want to for esl, even with the private/placement companies.

I didn't choose a location, or have an preference at all. Like you say, I could've possibly pushed a bit harder for my own choice and got it, the company even said as much. However, it's not like I have a reference point for living and working in Japan, so I would have taken whatever location they gave me provided there was some basic public transportation links.

Kanagawa prefecture seems like a good balance between Tokyo and not-Tokyo, so as someone who is inexperienced with these things, it is probably better than being thrown into a dialect heavy area first time around. After a year I could move on, either to a new a job or to a new area, or both. Preferably the latter, to something more related to my degree and a year's experience of real-world Japanese behind me.

 

[I'm an expert]

Yeah, I didn't mean that you specifically asked for it, just that getting a placement like that used to be like woooowwwww and now it's like totally normal (except jets). There's a lot of interesting topics as to how the whole alt scene shifted with the Japan boom, Nova crash, 3/11, the recessions.. while I don't like the industry itself, it's cool to see the trends as it obviously affects a fuck ton of foreigners in jland.

 

[Porcile]

Yeah, I didn't mean that you specifically asked for it, just that getting a placement like that used to be like woooowwwww and now it's like totally normal (except jets). There's a lot of interesting topics as to how the whole alt scene shifted with the Japan boom, Nova crash, 3/11, the recessions.. while I don't like the industry itself, it's cool to see the trends as it obviously affects a fuck ton of foreigners in jland.

Ah, I see. I think even JETs get a bit more say these days if they have a strong location preference. With the Tokyo Olympics coming up, I believe the Japanese government has pushed for an increase of places for English ALT's around the Tokyo area, which is more than likely why they put me there, and will likely place a bunch of other people there as well. I'll just have to try and strike a balance between comfort and putting myself in challenging situations where I will have to use Japanese, which is mostly why I wanted the public school option.

 

[I'm an expert]

You'll be coddled like a motherfucker in Kanagawa, even in the most inaka. If you wanted challenge you'd go to Shikoku or the far north.

 

[Porcile]

Yes, that will be a danger. Which is why I would not have said no to somewhere in Kyushu or Hokkaido, even if realistically I would be a bit out of my depth in those places.

Well, if i'm still in Kanagawa a year from now, feel free to slap me.

 

[urfe]

I didn't find out until very recently, and still don't know where exactly, but I will be somewhere in and around the Kanagawa prefecture. Probably not a bad starting point for a fresh off the boat Japan-baby like myself.

Nice. I'm in Chiba and work in Tokyo. Kanagawa is nicer than both.

 

[Porcile]

If I was presented the choice between Kanagawa or somewhere in Shikoku or Hokkaido etc, then as a someone who is only self-taught in the language, has never lived in Japan, has only worked abroad for very short periods, then simply for the fact I am so feebly inexperienced at this sort of thing, I would have always picked the position I got. I don't want to make out that I'm all like, "I totally wanted to go to Shikoku, but they forced me to live in Kanagawa instead, the bastards! But if I must...".

I want to have something of a lasting relationship with the country, hence the desire to study as much as I can before going, so hopefully opportunities to challenge myself in other parts of Japan will come along. Before all that though, I can't really predict what my reaction is going to be. Honestly though, I really would have taken the tougher option if it had been given to me first time around, but as it so happens it wasn't given to me, and rather than rock the boat, I just stuck with what they offered me for a year.

Edit - this isn't directed at anyone, just thought I was sounding like a bit of a hypocrite lol

 

[Resilient]

If I was presented the choice between Kanagawa or somewhere in Shikoku or Hokkaido etc, then as a someone who is only self-taught in the language, has never lived in Japan, has only worked abroad for very short periods, then simply for the fact I am so feebly inexperienced at this sort of thing, I would have always picked the position I got. I don't want to make out that I'm all like, "I totally wanted to go to Shikoku, but they forced me to live in Kanagawa instead, the bastards! But if I must...".

I want to have something of a lasting relationship with the country, hence the desire to study as much as I can before going, so hopefully opportunities to challenge myself in other parts of Japan will come along. Before all that though, I can't really predict what my reaction is going to be. Honestly though, I really would have taken the tougher option if it had been given to me first time around, but as it so happens it wasn't given to me, and rather than rock the boat, I just stuck with what they offered me for a year.

Edit - this isn't directed at anyone, just thought I was sounding like a bit of a hypocrite lol

Haha that's great. Your posts always make me laugh. If you don't mind me asking, what is your degree in again?

 

[Porcile]

Haha that's great. Your posts always make me laugh. If you don't mind me asking, what is your degree in again?

Without being too specific, computer animation and subjects relating to art/design as I have a post-graduate degree as well. I can't say for sure which one takes priority in my life though, given that my two degrees are quite different even though they are in the same general field.

 

[I'm an expert]

Wait what wasn't your background in education and teaching

 

[Porcile]

Wait what wasn't your background in education and teaching

Again without being too specific, as waaay too many details about my life are now on this message board, I taught on the course where I did my BA for a few years, and outside of the university I did some private tuition for a couple years. Generally, much of my work even in the arts field has in some way been associated with education and education institutions.

My background in "teaching" is teaching with a small "t", let's say. I'm not a teacher, I have no formal training as one, but due to how well I understood the course curriculum as a student, my personality and technical knowledge relating to the course (there were smarter people than me, but I understood the technical side of things in relation to the work the course produced better than most people), the staff hired me to work for them doing a bunch of different things.

That's up to you if you call that real teaching, I would, as most of the practical skills I gained from all that and private tuition are things which are quite transferable to any classroom/education environment.

 

[I'm an expert]

wow.. im like.. honestly heartbroken.

i need to go ly dow

 

[Porcile]

wow.. im like.. honestly heartbroken.

i need to go ly dow

haha.

So you thought I was Mr. Teach with elbow patches or something? Where I'm from those guys are probably having a chair thrown at them right now, or being stabbed. No, I'm not specifically interested in the field of education if that's what you thought. I like, and have mostly done practical teaching, for which a doctorate or a flimsy one year PGCE is not necessarily required. To be honest, the best "teachers" I've ever met were people without formal education in teaching. I aspire to be like those guys more than anyone else really, as they have influenced me the most in my time.

Sorry, man.

Spoiler

If that's what you're getting at.

 

[I'm an expert]

I just..

I don't know.

I just don't know.

I need a break from gaf.

 

[Porcile]

I just..

I don't know.

I just don't know.

I need a break from gaf.

omfg.

Spoiler

j/k.

No seriously, feel free to enlighten me, I have no idea what's going on O_O I won't take offense at anything you say, trust me. Not like there's much else happening here at the moment. You have carte blanche to dish out what you want on me, I'm more curious than anything.

 

[I'm an expert]

I'm fucking around too but I honestly did think you were in education and going to Asia for more experience. So, yeah. I mean I don't know what else to say. You have no reason to tell me why you're going to teach English in Japan, and I have no reason to ask. You just would have been in the minority of actual teachers going to teach, so it made your progress in here a bit more meaningful for me. Same with anyone in here going to Japan with a different goal than being a baka gaijin alt. That's just real talk.

 

[Porcile]

I'm fucking around too but I honestly did think you were in education and going to Asia for more experience. So, yeah. I mean I don't know what else to say. You have no reason to tell me why you're going to teach English in Japan, and I have no reason to ask. You just would have been in the minority of actual teachers going to teach, so it made your progress in here a bit more meaningful for me. Same with anyone in here going to Japan with a different goal than being a baka gaijin alt. That's just real talk.

Senpai nooo. You have to believe in me.

It's not like I did the university teaching and private teaching just because whatever. I did it because I enjoyed it, and they kept me on because I was good at it, even though many people walked those same corridors as I did. I guess this all depends on what your definition of the word teacher is. That's on you really. Are my teaching experiences any less valuable than those of someone else? I dunno, man. Bearing in my mind I'm trying to keep everything quite vague about what I did there. Not that I have to seek your approval or anything - haha. I can send you my reference contacts details if you want though? Ask them what they think of me. Is it my dream to be a ALT, no. That's dumb. Is one of my goals out there to continue my teaching journey (which can take many interesting and valuable forms) absolutely. I don't consider it to have an end point.

I'm realistic about what being an ALT means in Japan, and what it could mean if I let it get away from me. Trust me, I also don't want to be baka gaijin ALT hanging around Yokohama with the other gaijin. I'm doing my bloody best not to be that guy. I mean, that's just not talk either, I'm actually doing those things right now to stop that happening, every single day, when I could easily be doing something else a lot more fun and take the Kanagawa baka gaijin alt easy life when it comes around.

 

[I'm an expert]

I wrote a post but sent it in a pm instead. Not the thread for it. Can talk about it in living in japan thread if want, cause I'll never go into teaching in asia thread lol. Or just keep to pms.

 

[RangerBAD]

I feel like there's a "turn" I need to make with the language and I don't know if I have.

 

[urfe]

Off topic, but I'm going to study the Russian alphabet today so I can start some light Russian learning.

I hope it compliments my Japanese study well. The beginning of learning a language is always a little more exciting that when you're in the meat of it.

 

[Kurita]

Have to translate this Masaoka Shiki text for school (well it's optional but I want dem bonus points)...
http://www.aozora.gr.jp/cards/000305/files/50379_39084.html
I forgot using periods in the text wasn't a thing back then, ugh.

 

[I'm an expert]

Going to be taking my leave of gaf for a while. Just posting here that if anyone needs something in terms of my method, feel free to pm me. I'll check pms every few days. Maybe by the time I come back to post I'll even be back home, but I'll probably check in before that.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Have to translate this Masaoka Shiki text for school (well it's optional but I want dem bonus points)...
http://www.aozora.gr.jp/cards/000305/files/50379_39084.html
I forgot using periods in the text wasn't a thing back then, ugh.

That was actually a pretty entertaining little tale. Sounds like a fun project to translate that into English.

Sorry if you posted this earlier, but what kind of class are you taking?

 

[Kurita]

That was actually a pretty entertaining little tale. Sounds like a fun project to translate that into English.

Sorry if you posted this earlier, but what kind of class are you taking?

(Actually I'm French so I have to translate it in French haha )
I'm in my third year of Japanese studies (Language and Civilization). Aside from the usual Grammar, Oral Comprehension, Lexicology... here's what I have this year (rough translations) :
-Interpreting
-Intellectual history of modern Japan
-Politics
-Literature
-International relations of Japan
-Economy
-Press
Last year I took Cinema, Music, Religion, Introduction to Politics, History of Southeast Asia.

 

[I'm an expert]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJNxPRBvRQg

randomly popped up in my youtube and thought itd be a nice confidence builder for most

 

[RangerBAD]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJNxPRBvRQg

randomly popped up in my youtube and thought itd be a nice confidence builder for most

"I'll just use hiragana." Heh.

 

[Porcile]

in b4 a Japanese learner says "I don't need to learn kanji because I can write everything in hiragana instead."

Spoiler

oh shit. We're through the looking glass here, people.

 

[I'm an expert]

it's interesting because right when I began my studies it was sort of the beginning of serious adoption for word processors and the modern keitai so there really was this worry of.. do i even have to learn how to handwrite kanji? i mean, for the study method, the answer is yes because the writing commits to memory, but eventually you do get into situations where you have to write the simplest of words but because you havent written it in years (even though youve seen it probably once a week) you have a hard time pulling it.

very different than how youd remember to spell a word in english as you can put it together from the sound alone

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I'll admit that whenever I have to do anything handwritten like a letter, I'll type it up first and constantly refer to the typed version.

Even for Japanese people, unless you keep up on that stuff and regularly write, you're going to checking your phone every couple of words to make sure you got the Kanji right.

 

[RangerBAD]

Would it be a bad idea if I finished the current chapter of Tobira and then focus solely on kanji and vocabulary for a while? Sort of don't want to kill my momentum, but I need a bigger pile of kanji.

 

[leroidys]

wanikani is working really well for me so far. The main thing I was looking for was something that actually teaches you radicals, and it seems to be doing that decently. It's basically all review at this point, but it's really nice that they only give you the most common readings up front so you're not trying to memorize 5 sounds for every new kanji you learn with no useful readings. It's also probably good that they limit the amount you can study. I have a tendency to binge and burnout with SRS.

I definitely need to work in some writing practice though to really solidify things.

 

[Porcile]

I think it's better to think of it like having the ability to write kanji is a byproduct of having the ability to think in kanji, which is far more important. Just being able to make all those connections in your head that being able to think in kanji lets you do. That's some really powerful stuff, and a much more important reason to learn how to write kanji rather than for the mad kudos you'll get from your staggered friends, who will probably just be amazed that you know how to hold a pen in the first place.

That's why I said a couple pages back that while Wanikani is OK for what it is, your relationship with Japanese would be superficial and all surface, literally, because you could only ever engage with kanji if you saw it written on a surface. You wouldn't be able to think in kanji. This is coming from someone that did the Wanikani thing for five months and has had my brain my fucked up for the last month because all the kanji I thought that I knew, I didn't. Like, when you have that base of 600-1000 kanji; stroke orders, radicals, meanings, readings etc the amount of connections you can make just in your head is crazy. When you get to 2000+...

A quick test. Just think of all the ways you could write にゅうかんりょう in kanji. Not a complicated word, maybe you know what it means, but without looking that word up, just try and hand-write that in kanji. I'm going to assume all you Wanikani-only users mostly likely can't write it correctly, or even begin to, and for those that can write kanji could write a number of different combinations which could fit that word. Obviously only one is right, but that's what I mean by making connections. Like, having 2000+ characters in your head and being able to whittle it down to just two or three, still all in your head, is funkin' crazy when you stop and think about it.

Long story short, whatever method you're using, learn to write the kanji, not just so you can write them, but so you can think in kanji. It's not that hard, and anyone who tells you any differently never bothered to learn how to do it. I'm aware that this entire post makes me sound like a condescending hipster douche because I didn't always do things this way. Wish I did though.

 

[TheSporkWithin]

Would it be a bad idea if I finished the current chapter of Tobira and then focus solely on kanji and vocabulary for a while? Sort of don't want to kill my momentum, but I need a bigger pile of kanji.

I'd strongly encourage it. Your literacy will skyrocket. Tobira-level is probably the ideal time to double down on kanji, as your grammar base plus decent kanji knowledge will allow you to extend your reach into the higher levels much more easily.

 

[Resilient]

Porcile what are you using for reading practice? You got any decent novels you could recommend?

 

[urfe]

I had to look up the kanji for にゅうかんりょう to figure out what you were taking about.

I couldn't have written かん from memory.

 

[Porcile]

I had to look up the kanji for にゅうかんりょう to figure out what you were taking about.

I couldn't have written かん from memory.

This probably applies to beginner learners more than people who are familiar with the language, since yeah, over time you will likely forget how to write even the simple ones from memory if you dont write enough. By that time all the really important things will be ingrained anyway. But as a learner I think you need that stuff floating in your head.

 

[Resilient]

Porcile pls

 

[urfe]

This probably applies to beginner learners more than people who are familiar with the language, since yeah, over time you will likely forget how to write even the simple ones from memory if you dont write enough. By that time all the really important things will be ingrained anyway. But as a learner I think you need that stuff floating in your head.

No, I should know how to write かん, it actually comes up at my work quite a bit. I work at a university and we have to let people know when we are at different building and so we write 7号館 or whatever.

I should focus on writing more too. ^_^

 

[Porcile]

Porcile what are you using for reading practice? You got any decent novels you could recommend?

Oh, I missed this. I've only been using NHK Baby News :-S. I didn't even know light novels were a thing before I came here. The last week has been pretty bad for me. I've been getting my whiteboard stuff done, but finding the time to do a bunch of reading has been hard. I have the usual Christmas commitments I can't ignore around this time of year. After January 1st, I can really kick on though and start incorporating way more listening and reading into my daily schedule.

 

[RangerBAD]

I'd strongly encourage it. Your literacy will skyrocket. Tobira-level is probably the ideal time to double down on kanji, as your grammar base plus decent kanji knowledge will allow you to extend your reach into the higher levels much more easily.

I kind of regret not doing that before I started Tobira, but better late than never. Any book I should buy or site I should use?

 

[Resilient]

Oh, I missed this. I've only been using NHK Baby News :-S. I didn't even know light novels were a thing before I came here. The last week has been pretty bad for me. I've been getting my whiteboard stuff done, but finding the time to do a bunch of reading has been hard. I have the usual Christmas commitments I can't ignore around this time of year. After January 1st, I can really kick on though and start incorporating way more listening and reading into my daily schedule.

i feel ya, i've come into a bit of time now which is good. more time to apply what i've been doing. well if I come across anything good i'll let you know. i don't want to fall into a trap where i waste my time reading something okay-ish when i could be reading something more beneficial. yes yes anything to read is good but need to capitalise effectively on whatever time I have. but, i also want something to read + reinforce all the N3 + N2 grammar that is floating in my head now. especially before I start the N1 stuff in a few weeks.

man, so crazy to think that a month ago that the thought of starting N2 let alone N1 content was so far way from my timeline. now I've consumed confidently 95% of the N3 grammar, reinforced all I knew about N4 and started dipping my toes into N2 + knee deep in N2 Kanji. I'll be studying all N1 content in 3 weeks time...insane.

and I agree with what you said a few pages back. so much content floating about in my head lol, you just think about ways to connect things you've learned and you'll often later see them out in the wild. good stuff. next 2 months will be tough but oh, oh so rewarding.

 

[Resilient]

ないことはない vs　ないこともない

You would only use these if somebody triggered it, i.e. "Eric said you dislike Ramen?", but is the only difference between the two that ないことはない is a bit stronger than ないこともない i.e. ないこともない is weaker?

Any real world examples where some of you have used this expression/seen it used to help clarify it a bit more?