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[Smiles and Cries]

Your question "Can Black Power Cure Sickle Cell Disease?" is loaded with all sorts of cultural subtext and implied meaning, much of which wouldn't translate to Japanese directly. It's not so much the translation is the issue, but what the translation as a concept would mean to a Japanese person. You want Japanese people to understand it, right? I have no idea if a Japanese person would understand your question as it is, as an abstract idea or otherwise. You'd have to ask an actual Japanese person.

Anyway, it's not like I disagree with what you're doing, but this is the crux of the issue, and obviously one which many people learning languages struggle to get over. It's easy to talk objectively about something (kore wa pen desu) but a lot harder to talk in abstract ideas because most of those will only be relevant to the culture.

Iet us say that only the shapes of the text matters and it could have said anything
I can go an post it at lang-8 but the art is not targeting a Japanese viewer the text is meant to be abstract I am not sure how much it will even stand out of blend into the background it just needs to be readable the cultural concepts of ideas is a layer that does not really need to be reached it is a discussion for this side of the world

I think the hard part here is I am running against dudes who take their Japanese studies very seriously and cannot understand how words can be used to just play becaof the many hours spent learning the rules and structure of how it works.

Here I am breaking some of those structures because what I want to say is just not that clear to express in Japanese. I get what you are saying, what I am asking is - Is this:
ブラックパワーは鎌状赤血球症を治せるかな？

the closest? See you get where I am going with it, the fear is someone at lang-8 would try so hard to get the abstract ideas behind the words I end up with new words. I do not want new words at all I want the exact abstract statement as weird as it may look to a Japanese speaker.

If I tell an english speaker - ブラックパワーは鎌状赤血球症を治せるかな？says
"Can Black Power Cure Sickle Cell Disease?" that is all I want it to say
the rest is up to the rest of the work to convey this is just the text just part of a larger painting with a lot of other concepts and ideas it the mix not all of them will hit home for a viewer each person may walk away with one concept and never find others.

to lighten up, let lose, express say anything
it is JAZZ - FREE - FLOW - GRAFFITI - Art

what if the idea was I never tell the english speaker what
ブラックパワーは鎌状赤血球症を治せるかな？means or says?
they are now just shapes that I know and you know is fine. Even if the Kanji was totally wrong the group of you guys here put it together and gave it a meaning
that was all I wanted to ask you guys to help me get to

broken structure, lost translation, puzzles, abstract

I am not creating a poster or an ad I am creating a deeply personal art with some hidden meanings, so it is okay if a whole group of people can't read it or understand it. I really just wanted something as close to the english words as possible

if what you guys shared with me is the closest but because of cultural differences the ideas do not translate well it is exactly what I am looking to express the whole discussion we just had is what I would love to see those who view the work have as well
question it, mock it, explore it.

Thanks again for taking the time to help me out guys

 

[Hasemo]

I don't visit this thread often, but I assume that people willing to learn are always looking for interesting things to read to help with their Japanese.

Since GAF is a gaming forum, many of you might find this interesting:
The book "97 Things Every Game Creator Should Know" is now available for free under Creative Commons 3.0.
It's a collection of 97 essays and while the difficulty level depends on the chapter, it's generally not that hard.

If you enjoy CEDEC speeches, definitely give this a try.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

who cares if they understand it or not? they can just learn it, no? you said so yourself a few pages back.

until an hour ago i had probably seen the words Sickle Cell like...3 or 4 times in my life. Smiles wrote the sentence, i googled it to actually see what it was and i educated myself. "Can black power cure sickle cell disease" did not make any sense to me before. now it does, cause i went and looked it up.

nobody, native japanese or not, is gonna know what that means until they read it, think about it, look it up even. then after that, they'll understand it.

is that not the entire point of why Smiles said he wants to write it? it doesn't matter whether it translates well into Japanese (or any other language for that matter). it's a question. if you don't understand it right away, that doesn't mean it's a bad sentence.

Sickle Cell Awareness and Education is a total goal of the Sickle Cell Art
I knew a half Japanese girl with Sickle Cell Disease it is not really hard to understand what is driving my work it just takes a little time to get why I am doing it this way.
I said I knew because she died of it at a young age her father is Japanese.
I also had a friend who got married in Japan all Japanese Style wedding, he died of Sickle Cell about a year later leaving behind his young Japanese wife. If they had children it would have passed the genetic trait down to a new generation. It is about awareness and education. But you really can't force feed knowledge people have to want to understand.

I want to preface this by saying that I mean no disrespect, and that ultimately it's all up to you as an artist. It doesn't affect me one way or another, and if it makes you happy or leaves you feeling satisfied to insert things like this (not said dismissively, just generally) into your work, that's absolutely fine.

I think that the reason that there's this weird pushback going on, is that translation is always a delicate business, and really it's incredibly personal. As people deep in the language learning process (and for such a radically different language with so many different aspects to it) we're all very familiar with this idea of subjectivity when it comes to translation, and so we react to this sort of thing with strange, inexplicable discomfort, like a cat being pet backwards.

The translation I posted and which you seem to have accepted as "accurate" is phrased as a musing question, but you could also posit it as a more direct question. Or you could do so with a more assertive voice, implying that it might be possible. Or a more doubtful voice, implying that it's not possible. Or more polite. Or more brusque. All of these would be accurate translations of that sentence, none of them would really make any more sense. And none of them would be "exactly what you want to convey" because you're unable to understand and create the sentences yourself.

This isn't meant as a slight against you or your ability. My point is that you could just as easily have typed that sentence into Google Translate and used that output, as I and the other posters on here have as much direct insight into your work and your art as Google Translate does. It may be more grammatically correct than whatever Google would have farted out, but it's no more artistically correct.

I seriously do understand all that, I value the time you guys took to help me really.
I know how hard this language is I've tried for years to get into it but my memory is not as sharp as it once was. English is not my first language so I have a deep love and respect for language, poetry, words.

This is Art for me so in Art you can make some allowances that grammar and language structure will not allow. I do understand how much time you guys invested in learning this language Japanese is still one of my favorite languages to listen to.

Baka - I found it strange when I was growing up in Haiti that the Kreyol word Baka meant stupid ugly demon in that context

that is why I always enjoyed seeking to mix cultures and languages in my work

It is not easy because yes I have to use nonsensical phrases at times but it is worth it to me and part of the process is asking for help like I've done here

thanks for taking the time to reply and I do value all of the feedback it is good to hear it

nope google translate would not have been this good or human

 

[Resilient]

nah, thank you. the topic was refreshing for the thread. especially this bit:

I think the hard part here is I am running against dudes who take their Japanese studies very seriously and cannot understand how words can be used to just play becaof the many hours spent learning the rules and structure of how it works.

i get what you're trying to do with your work, i respect it man.

 

[Porcile]

who cares if they understand it or not? they can just learn it, no? you said so yourself a few pages back.

until an hour ago i had probably seen the words Sickle Cell like...3 or 4 times in my life. Smiles wrote the sentence, i googled it to actually see what it was and i educated myself. "Can black power cure sickle cell disease" did not make any sense to me before. now it does, cause i went and looked it up.

nobody, native japanese or not, is gonna know what that means until they read it, think about it, look it up even. then after that, they'll understand it.

is that not the entire point of why Smiles said he wants to write it? it doesn't matter whether it translates well into Japanese (or any other language for that matter). it's a question. if you don't understand it right away, that doesn't mean it's a bad sentence.

Nouns aren't same the idioms and other figures of speech, is the point I'm trying to make.

My other point about someone learning the meaning was related to the original translation of Black Power as 黒人の力 which to me is straight up nonsense. Anyone can look up what Black Power means, or what sickle cell disease is in any language and come up with the same definition because they're nouns with clear definitions. TheSporkWithin felt a Japanese person wouldn't be able to able to understand what Black Power meant and shoehorned in a wackyass translation instead of just using the actual noun, in the process completely changing the meaning.

 

[TheSporkWithin]

On a completely different note:

I'm currently plowing through 告白, and it's the first time I've felt completely immersed in a Japanese novel. This isn't because it's a great book (it's not), or exceptionally well-written (it's not bad, but not too special), but because it's pretty much perfect for my current ability level (I can read for long periods at a stretch without getting pulled out by too many unfamiliar words or clunky sentences). The narrative is told from the perspective of various narrators (who are well-enough defined, if fairly tropey) and due to the narrative's framing the language used is largely junior high school level Japanese, which makes the sentences fairly easy to parse.

The story is rather ridiculous and contrived, but it's fun in a stupid revenge thriller sort of way. Because that's what this is, a stupid revenge thriller about junior high school students. Premise spoilers established by the first chapter (of 6) follow:

Spoiler

The first narrator is the homeroom teacher of a １年生 class (7th year of school). She is speaking to her class on the last day of school. She is a single mother, and about a month before her daughter was found drowned in the school swimming pool. She finds some suspicious items that were picked up near the pool, and manages to piece together and confirm a narrative in which her daughter was (perhaps unwittingly) murdered by two male students from her class. She does not name them, but her story clearly identifies them to the other students. She finishes her narrative by telling the class that she has been secretly injecting HIV-positive blood (taken from her ex-fiancee, a recently deceased semi-celebrity) into the milk pouches of these two boys. She then essentially blackmails everyone into secrecy, and then resigns.

Things get darker from there.

The interesting thing is that I find myself reacting to this much more strongly than I would if I read something like it in English. Reading in Japanese deactivates some of my filters, in a sense, and I feel stuff much more strongly. It's very weird, because I'll find myself tensing up as I'm reading, and then I'll stop for a minute and everything clicks into focus and I'm like "holy shit, this is so stupid." And then I just dive right back in.

Anyway, there's a movie based on it which apparently was nominated for some awards. The English title is "Confessions." If someone is looking for something to read at the N2 level or thereabouts, you could do a lot worse. It's competently written (to my eye, at least), and while it's not great literature it's good, trashy (and disturbing) fun.

I don't visit this thread often, but I assume that people willing to learn are always looking for interesting things to read to help with their Japanese.

Since GAF is a gaming forum, many of you might find this interesting:
The book "97 Things Every Game Creator Should Know" is now available for free under Creative Commons 3.0.
It's a collection of 97 essays and while the difficulty level depends on the chapter, it's generally not that hard.

If you enjoy CEDEC speeches, definitely give this a try.

This is cool. I may try to put it into .mobi format to load onto Kindle. I believe that'd be covered by CCL?

 

[PreyingShark]

If I tell an english speaker - ブラックパワーは鎌状赤血球症を治せるかな？says
"Can Black Power Cure Sickle Cell Disease?" that is all I want it to say

Oh okay, should be something like this (though maybe not, sometimes I unintentionally break the language beyond all recognition):

ブラック・パワーでは鎌状赤血球症の治療を見つけられる？
"With Black Power, can a cure for Sickle Cell Disease be found?"

ブラック・パワーは鎌状赤血球症の治療を見つけられる？
"Can Black Power find a cure for Sickle Cell Disease?"

 

[Smiles and Cries]

nah, thank you. the topic was refreshing for the thread. especially this bit:



i get what you're trying to do with your work, i respect it man.

It is not a slight towards how hard an effort it takes to learn Japanese this all I was saying it the way I came in here with something that totally threw the structure a curve-ball. I think this should be part of learning a language though, if you can master the oddball concepts to convey it clearly in the language you have spent time learning it is a worthwhile challenge

with self-learning it is hard to come up with your own odd-ball things to translate

last few time I posted here
I wanted "Haitian Superflat" and "Haitian Dancers" how many times would anyone learning Japanese run into these words hehe like I said google translate is not as good or as human as the feedback

I am here to learn as well

Nouns aren't same the idioms and other figures of speech, is the point I'm trying to make.

My other point about someone learning the meaning was related to the original translation of Black Power as 黒人の力 which to me is straight up nonsense. Anyone can look up what Black Power means, or what sickle cell disease is in any language and come up with the same definition because they're nouns with clear definitions. TheSporkWithin felt a Japanese person wouldn't be able to able to understand what Black Power meant and shoehorned in a wackyass translation instead of just using the actual noun, in the process completely changing the meaning.

Because of the Wikipedia link posted earlier I agreed with your take on Black Power I do understand what you guys were discussing on which version worked best but as I said I just wanted something closer to what I wanted to say

But as the purpose of the thread is learning Japanese it is a worthwhile discussion to point out why the sentence does not work in Japanese for a learner

if many are using the thread to help learn key concepts about the language the past few pages is a good fuel

I don't think you guys should be so quick to drive me towards lang-8 or google translate though it is good to flex what you have learned with a little odd-ball question

As I am a total newbie in Japanese Grammar and Structure

is there a reason why

1) Can

2) Black Power

3) Cure

4) Sickle Cell Disease

5) ?


So in English I broke it down to 5 elements it is really 4 since #5 is related to #1

but how is this structured in Japanese and for a learner can you brake down what trouble Japanese runs into when you try to build those 5 key elements into something that is not totally weird?

As a learning exercise, as a beginner I would be totally lost as to where to structure the sentence so of course it is easy for me to say 'Good Enough' or 'Close Enough' while you guys who have much more experience with the language are very much alarmed about how messy this can get if you try to translate it.

Is there no way to balance this sentence noun for noun = word for word?

You did explain very well what deeper cultural meaning those words carry that cannot easily transfer to Japanese

Black Power - If I had a choice of what I want my words to mean, I would go with Black as COLOR POWER over BLACK MAN POWER if that helps

the issue is race / skin color / color
so the color black and power

is it a hard concept to teach a Japanese person?

I was trying to think of a similar Japanese concept
Self Pride is not really a cultural concept in Japan
the whole nail that sticks out gets hammered uh thing
but is there a group pride? Gay Pride?

Ninja Power
Power Rangers
some concept that is nonsensical but close enough to convey why a group of people would come up with such a thing as Black Power

It never really hit home that Japanese would not get it until you guys brought it up.

as someone who listens to Japanese Reggae a lot
old stuff from Spinna B-ILL is my favorite
https://youtu.be/WRBeKNttZr8

not sure if the concept would be very hard for younger Japanese
https://youtu.be/3Lu0kXanYsg

if you can take reggae culture to Japan it is not so hard to share a concept with the words that could be clear enough for a Japanese speaker

so for the sake of learning it would be worth making a post at lang-8 to explore this

 

[Resilient]

I say definitely make the post on Lang-8. I'm gonna ask a friend tonight if she know understands the question too. it's interesting, I'm not seeing why asking the question would be so hard for a Japanese person to understand. And yeah I get the literal translations are stank, trust me. but I'm curious now

 

[Smiles and Cries]

Oh okay, should be something like this (though maybe not, sometimes I unintentionally break the language beyond all recognition):

ブラック・パワーでは鎌状赤血球症の治療を見つけられる？
"With Black Power, can a cure for Sickle Cell Disease be found?"

ブラック・パワーは鎌状赤血球症の治療を見つけられる？
"Can Black Power find a cure for Sickle Cell Disease?"

I do like the second one, anyone see any issues with the second one?

does "Find A + For" fix structural issues? It changes the language, impact, flow of the words for me.

Poetic expression = Can Black Power Cure Sickle Cell Disease?
Grammar & Structured = Can Black Power find a cure for Sickle Cell Disease?

It sounds like two different people speaking. So let me point out even in english the way you structure your words alters what is being said greatly. It just feels different. Very different voices very different experiences so if I had to re-structure the words to fit the Japanese if it is word for word translation I would put your first on on the painting if Japanese people had an easier time understanding it.

ブラック・パワーでは鎌状赤血球症の治療を見つけられる？
"With Black Power, can a cure for Sickle Cell Disease be found?"

word for word this would fit perfectly, any objections?

 

[Smiles and Cries]

I say definitely make the post on Lang-8. I'm gonna ask a friend tonight if she know understands the question too. it's interesting, I'm not seeing why asking the question would be so hard for a Japanese person to understand. And yeah I get the literal translations are stank, trust me. but I'm curious now

having a lot of issues loading lang-8 properly trying a different browser will report back tomorrow with updates

 

[Porcile]

For me it's not about grammar or structure. Think about the word "cure" and all it can mean in English, all the synonyms, and the many ways it can be used literally and figuratively. In Japanese I don't have enough experience to tell you whether 治す has the same breadth of meaning. but maybe it can be used more figuratively and we can all be jolly happy.

 

[Gacha-pin]

The artist in me says 「黒の力は病気に打ち勝てるか？」 8p

 

[Resilient]

For me it's not about grammar or structure. Think about the word "cure" and all it can mean in English, all the synonyms, and the many ways it can be used literally and figuratively. In Japanese I don't have enough experience to tell you whether 治す has the same breadth of meaning. but maybe it can be used more figuratively and we can all be jolly happy.

agreeing? in this thread? not likely mate.

 

[Porcile]

The artist in me says 「黒の力は病気に打ち勝てるか？」 8p

Does 黒の力 have the same connotation as the slogan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Power then?

 

[Ty4on]

Regarding the difference between ou and oo I randomly came across it on quora and the top answer recites a spelling reform as the reason long o is often written ou.

Written language affecting our perception spoken is fascinating. I think most are surprised to learn that the stops p/k/t in English lose their aspiration after an s and people who merge vowels often think they don't. Not to mention everyone who thinks English has just five vowels.
This might just be me, but I've also felt "write" and "right" have a slightly different pronunciation even though I don't pronounce /wr/. I think it's because I labialize the r and don't notice it in words that start with r.

 

[Gacha-pin]

Does 黒の力 have the same connotation as the slogan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Power then?

芸術家は自分の作品の意味を言葉で説明しないし、またそれを聞くのは野暮ってなもんだぜ j/k

We don't associate the word 'black/黒' with people of black unless it is followed by "人" to begin with. But I guess smiles don't want to use 人. So I use the most plain Japanese.

The first come to mind when I hear ブラックパワー is a mysterious power like magic in a fantasy RPG...

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Does 黒の力 have the same connotation as the slogan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Power then?

No, but nothing does. The culture is different and no matter what word you use, including the katakana rendition of black power = ブラックパワー, which may be technically accurate, would not be recognized as the same concept that you immediately think of when you hear the word in English if you're from a country like the United States or the United Kingdom or elsewhere.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

Update from Lang-8
correction: ブラック・パワーで鎌状赤血球症の治療ができる？

What I posted: ブラック・パワーでは鎌状赤血球症の治療を見つけられる？

nothing was said no comments just the correction, any thoughts?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Update from Lang-8
correction: ブラック・パワーで鎌状赤血球症の治療ができる？

What I posted: ブラック・パワーでは鎌状赤血球症の治療を見つけられる？

nothing was said no comments just the correction, any thoughts?

Correction simply means "Can sickle cell disease be treated with "black power?"

What you posted was "Can a treatment for sickle cell disease be found with "black power?"

 

[Smiles and Cries]

Correction simply means "Can sickle cell disease be treated with "black power?"

What you posted was "Can a treatment for sickle cell disease be found with "black power?"

Yeah I was looking for the word 'Cure' but it is what it is.

I was just wondering if you guys have any feelings about the correction from a native speaker there was no comment from shu just the correction so I can't tell if he had trouble with the concept of Black Power

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Yeah I was looking for the word 'Cure' but it is what it is.

I was just wondering if you guys have any feelings about the correction from a native speaker there was no comment from shu just the correction so I can't tell if he had trouble with the concept of Black Power

治療（ちりょう） can mean cure, but it can also mean treatment in the ongoing sense.

完治（かんち） has the further implication of a full recovery.

It's hard to comment on the correction, since the original sentence wasn't technically incorrect in any way. It was just one individual rewriting the sentence in a way that he or she felt sounded better or more natural for reasons unknown to us. Really not much to comment on. It's completely unclear whether the person knew, or cared, what ブラック・パワー meant.

Gacha-pin is a native speaker, too, by the way.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

治療（ちりょう） can mean cure, but it can also mean treatment in the ongoing sense.

完治（かんち） has the further implication of a full recovery.

It's hard to comment on the correction, since the original sentence wasn't technically incorrect in any way. It was just one individual rewriting the sentence in a way that he or she felt sounded better or more natural for reasons unknown to us. Really not much to comment on. It's completely unclear whether the person knew, or cared, what ブラック・パワー meant.

Gacha-pin is a native speaker, too, by the way.

Ok sounds good

also sorry I did not know about Gacha-pin being a native speaker, some of the guys suggested trying lang-8 so I did that for the discussion sake

芸術家は自分の作品の意味を言葉で説明しないし、またそれを聞くのは野暮ってなもんだぜ j/k

We don't associate the word 'black/黒' with people of black unless it is followed by "人" to begin with. But I guess smiles don't want to use 人. So I use the most plain Japanese.

The first come to mind when I hear ブラックパワー is a mysterious power like magic in a fantasy RPG...

Ok so the use of 人 makes it black power as in black people, I understand the use and I get the concept of black magic but if you saw the image of the hand next to the text does it change the mindset at all towards the correct context or does the text just scream fantasy RPG powers?

Does 黒の力 have the same connotation as the slogan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Power then?

The artist in me says 「黒の力は病気に打ち勝てるか？」 8p

can I ask what the word for word translation of what you posted as the artist?
I'll either use yours or the lang-8 correction

sorry for all the fuss guys thank you so much for all the feedback

 

[Kilrogg]

Thanks for the reply! I'm not really familiar with vocal placement. Any material (text, video, or otherwise) you can recommend on the subject?

Sadly, I don't know anyone who goes specifically into how to master the Japanese vocal placement. I even looked for a Japanese accent coach once, and unsurprisingly I couldn't find a single one. But maybe I just don't know where to look.

I myself have only known the very concept of vocal placement for a few years now. One night back when I was living in Japan, I chatted all night with this Japanese friend of mine, and at some point I go "could you honestly tell me what you think of my accent? What am I getting wrong?" and at first, he was kinda struggling to express what it was exactly that I was missing. Then he said this: 「声の出し方」... And I was like... 「どういうこと？意味わかんねえ」lol.

But anyway, there is this Japanese guy on YouTube who wrote a book called 英語喉. In it and on his channel, he talks about how Japanese people should place their voice if they want to have a good accent in English - his English is really good actually. In this old video he goes on about the difference in vocal placement between the two languages (and other differences): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74xJbULwBH0

Hopefully you'll find it interesting. Maybe your wife will be interested too, assuming she wants to practice her English.

I can definitely tell the difference in your pronunciation of えい/ええ. It's quite clear to me, but after all this discussion, I started to doubt myself. I asked my wife a bit about it (native Japanese from Kansai area) and she agreed that the idea that えい should turn into ええ almost universally is quite crazy. She wasn't as sure about おう/おー though.

From the Natsume Sôseki story, I think I do hear the difference, honestly. Especially in the 頬（ほお） vs 到底（とうてい） words at around 0:07 and 0:07. Again, I may be wrong, and my knowledge of how they are spelled may be causing my brain to hear them in certain ways, but I definitely hear it.

Anyway, you've got great pronunciation (and a pleasant voice to boot!). I think the way you pronounce your verbs （使う、話す、送る、する、行う、立つ） in particular is indistinguishable from a native speaker.

Thank you for the compliment, man. But damn, are you saying I'm unconsciously distinguishing between えい and ええ? I guess I'm just as unaware of it as you're unaware of your good placement, ha.

Anything in particular you think gives me away though?

Keep that discussion public! I'd love to learn more about the topic.

Sure! I was just telling him to jump on Skype so we could actually, you know, practice . When it comes to pronunciation and accent, you can only go so far before needing to listen and speak if you want to improve. In the end we didn't do much because my Internet connection decided to betray me that night.
Speaking of, we should do a Skype conversation or something sometime.

[EDIT] About the Black Power thing: all I can say is that, even in French, it wouldn't make sense to translate the phrase "Black Power" literally. "Le Pouvoir Noir" or "Le Pouvoir des Noirs" would just be weird. Most likely we would just say "Le Black Power"... And yes, I know it's stereotypical, but we would actually put a "le" in there. So, laugh away, folks!

 

[RangerBAD]

We could make a Discord chat. I just have Skype and haven't tried Discord. Waiting until they hash your IP. Maybe they do that now. Might suck for non-US people if it's on a US server. I would say that experienced speakers is a must though.

 

[Resilient]

[EDIT] About the Black Power thing: all I can say is that, even in French, it wouldn't make sense to translate the phrase "Black Power" literally. "Le Pouvoir Noir" or "Le Pouvoir des Noirs" would just be weird. Most likely we would just say "Le Black Power"... And yes, I know it's stereotypical, but we would actually put a "le" in there. So, laugh away, folks!

le lol *tips fedora*

 

[TheSporkWithin]

Finished 告白. It was a fun read, though there was a bit of a "difficulty spike" in the 5th and 6th chapters. I still think that most people who have passed N3 could manage it with a bit of effort. You'll be exposed to a lot of school vocabulary, and a lot of different speaking styles, so it's pretty good language practice, I think.

I really enjoyed (light spoilers)

Spoiler

how the different narrators all exposed different aspects of the situation, causing you to constantly reassess your understanding of what happened and what people's motives and feelings were surrounding it.

Didn't like so much (medium spoilers)

Spoiler

how tropey some of it was. There were a lot of times when people revealed that they had thought that maybe something would happen very early on, and of course it happened that way. One character in particular claims to have forecast certain series of events in a completely implausible way. It reminded me of Yugioh (my little brothers watched the hell out of that show) where some bad dude was always going on for five minutes about how he had laid out his trap card just so because he knew that someone would do this thing and then that thing and then....

But despite that, I'd still call it an enjoyable read, it's just not a "great novel," nor is it trying to be.

 

[Resilient]

I never bought Penguin Highway or a Kindle, so I think tonight I'll get 告白 and Penguin Highway from amazon.jp, hard copies.

How long did 告白 take to finish for you?

 

[shanshan310]

No, but nothing does. The culture is different and no matter what word you use, including the katakana rendition of black power = ブラックパワー, which may be technically accurate, would not be recognized as the same concept that you immediately think of when you hear the word in English if you're from a country like the United States or the United Kingdom or elsewhere.

mmm, I mean I'm a native English speaker and I only know what the term means because I live on US sites like gaf and saw a documentary on Peter Norman. Even in English concepts like that aren't universally understood, I'm not sure literally translating it would really maintain very culturally specific connotations.

 

[TheSporkWithin]

I never bought Penguin Highway or a Kindle, so I think tonight I'll get 告白 and Penguin Highway from amazon.jp, hard copies.

How long did 告白 take to finish for you?

About a week, but I'm not sure about the actual hours sunk into it. Probably around 10, maybe 12? I wasn't rushing, as I don't enjoy speed-reading fiction; and taking it at a leisurely pace and understanding everything is better than flying along and then having to second-guess things. The last 80 pages took a while, as the sentence structure, vocabulary, and plot movements became a bit more complicated than the rest of the book.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Sadly, I don't know anyone who goes specifically into how to master the Japanese vocal placement. I even looked for a Japanese accent coach once, and unsurprisingly I couldn't find a single one. But maybe I just don't know where to look.

I myself have only known the very concept of vocal placement for a few years now. One night back when I was living in Japan, I chatted all night with this Japanese friend of mine, and at some point I go "could you honestly tell me what you think of my accent? What am I getting wrong?" and at first, he was kinda struggling to express what it was exactly that I was missing. Then he said this: 「声の出し方」... And I was like... 「どういうこと？意味わかんねえ」lol.

But anyway, there is this Japanese guy on YouTube who wrote a book called 英語喉. In it and on his channel, he talks about how Japanese people should place their voice if they want to have a good accent in English - his English is really good actually. In this old video he goes on about the difference in vocal placement between the two languages (and other differences): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74xJbULwBH0

Hopefully you'll find it interesting. Maybe your wife will be interested too, assuming she wants to practice her English.

Thanks! I had actually seen that video a while back and shared it with my wife. The guy makes some very good observations, and I think it did help her a bit with paying more attention to her English pronunciation.

Thank you for the compliment, man. But damn, are you saying I'm unconsciously distinguishing between えい and ええ? I guess I'm just as unaware of it as you're unaware of your good placement, ha.

Hard to say... It may actually be a case of my hearing things that aren't actually there.

Anything in particular you think gives me away though?

I wouldn't say "gives you away" is necessarily accurate, but the only things that sounded off to me after careful inspection were:

携帯電話 (sounds off, but I can't put my finger on it... maybe the pronunciation of で?)　経営会議（just sounds like you're stretching out each vowel a bit too much? I imagine this was on purpose, though)、メール (slightly "l" like with the ル, but I've some Japanese people pronounce it similarly)、データベース(a bit of a rise on the デー?). I'm not really good at explaining this stuff, and honestly, they are all probably fine. The only one that really set off the gaijin flag to me was 携帯電話.

Sure! I was just telling him to jump on Skype so we could actually, you know, practice . When it comes to pronunciation and accent, you can only go so far before needing to listen and speak if you want to improve. In the end we didn't do much because my Internet connection decided to betray me that night.
Speaking of, we should do a Skype conversation or something sometime.

[EDIT] About the Black Power thing: all I can say is that, even in French, it wouldn't make sense to translate the phrase "Black Power" literally. "Le Pouvoir Noir" or "Le Pouvoir des Noirs" would just be weird. Most likely we would just say "Le Black Power"... And yes, I know it's stereotypical, but we would actually put a "le" in there. So, laugh away, folks!

Would love to do a Skype conversation sometime. Not really sure how to work out the logistics (west coast USA here), and it's hard for me to commit to a certain schedule, but I do like the idea...

Got a kick out of "Le Black Power." Is "le" much less of an English article like "the" and "a" and more of just something that signifies the following word will be a noun?

 

[RangerBAD]

Don't Japanese people talk more from their nose? Japanese is definitely a more quickly spoken language too like he says. It's an interesting video even though I can't keep up with his Japanese.

 

[Kilrogg]

Thanks! I had actually seen that video a while back and shared it with my wife. The guy makes some very good observations, and I think it did help her a bit with paying more attention to her English pronunciation.

I'd probably already posted it back then.

Hard to say... It may actually be a case of my hearing things that aren't actually there.

I'm as confused as you are about the whole thing now, to be honest. So much for solving the mystery lol.

I wouldn't say "gives you away" is necessarily accurate

Well, if it makes a native speaker go "huh?" or "something's not quite right", then I'm pretty sure it qualifies as "giving me away" . Told you I was anal about this.

but the only things that sounded off to me after careful inspection were:

携帯電話 (sounds off, but I can't put my finger on it... maybe the pronunciation of で?)　経営会議（just sounds like you're stretching out each vowel a bit too much? I imagine this was on purpose, though)、メール (slightly "l" like with the ル, but I've some Japanese people pronounce it similarly)、データベース(a bit of a rise on the デー?). I'm not really good at explaining this stuff, and honestly, they are all probably fine. The only one that really set off the gaijin flag to me was 携帯電話.

Thanks for the feedback.
Some of it is just the 'pressure' of having to saying them right, as opposed to just using them in a conversation. I agree with you about 携帯電話. It sounds stilted and overly articulated even to me. The "n" in "denwa" also sounds weird. It's somewhere inbetween a Japanese "n" and an English "n".
Same story with 経営会議. Overly enunciating. Doing it, I realized how hard it actually is to say a long string of え・い sounds without either overdoing it or underdoing it. I'd have to say it in a casual conversation to see if it sounds more natural.
データベース I said with a long ター. Maybe that's what made it sound weird to you. I know there's a whole thing with loan words these days where long vowels tend to be shortened. See コンピュータ vs. the older コンピューター. I don't know how common this phenomenon is, nor which words are affected by it as of today. I'd have to speak with Japanese people on a day-to-day basis to be aware of that. But if you still think my pronunciation sounds weird regardless, please tell me. I thought it was one of the easier words in the list.

If you're unsure what/if anything's wrong with any word, you can always make your wife listen to the thing and ask her her opinion, you weeb.

Would love to do a Skype conversation sometime. Not really sure how to work out the logistics (west coast USA here), and it's hard for me to commit to a certain schedule, but I do like the idea...

There's a 9-hour gap between our locations. So it basically has to be on the weekends, in the evening for me and late morning/early afternoon for you. I was convinced you still lived in Japan.

Got a kick out of "Le Black Power." Is "le" much less of an English article like "the" and "a" and more of just something that signifies the following word will be a noun?

I guess that's one way to put it. It's 99% identical to "the" in English, but the major difference is that there is no such thing as saying a noun without an article of some sort in French. In English, you can/have to get rid of "the" if you're talking about a general truth or a specific concept like Black Power. Can't do that in French. Even if I translated this last sentence, "Can't do that in French", into French, I'd have to say "le Français".

...

Now I'm feeling a wave of empathy towards Japanese learners of those languages. Articles must be an absolute nightmare for them. I'm sure your wife could attest to that.

Don't Japanese people talk more from their nose? Japanese is definitely a more quickly spoken language too like he says. It's an interesting video even though I can't keep up with his Japanese.

The Japanese talk more from the front of the mouth, so you're not that far off. They're essentially the polar opposite of English speakers, especially Americans, who speak entirely from the throat.

If anything, the French are the ones who speak from the nose. We have the unholy trinity of "an", "in" and "on" , three strongly nasal sounds that are very common - there even used to be a 4th one, "un"! As far as I'm aware, very few languages, if any, have those sounds. I used to teach French to this Japanese girl, and I would spend the first 5 minutes of every lesson testing her ability to differentiate the 3 sounds (both hearing and saying). Needless to say she was never able to get it 100% right, but she improved. And she is a musician for God's sake!

 

[I'm an expert]

I've had lunch with Angela Aki. desu ne

 

[Smiles and Cries]

"Le Black Power" well I did not go with French for good reason lol

thanks for all the help guys
I will return in the near future
With Le Questions to be asked

 

[Resilient]

interesting thread from r/learnjapanese: "Self Study Beginner to JLPT N1 in ~15 months. Feasibility and possible study plan?"

thoughts, expert?

 

[I'm an expert]

i see the same topic a lot through random circlejerk links, i dont post on reddit but even if i did i wouldnt reply. here i dont mind sharing the whiteboard method because theres like at max 50 who can reply, there itd open a shit storm because people just wouldnt be receptive of the idea of making study a full time job.

if the question is can you pass jlpt1 in 15 months, the answer is obvious. i passed jlpt1 in 3 months. now i admitted i didnt start from utter scratch and had experience with the language, but i wasnt coming from a strong background of kanji or grammar either. if it was really from 0, i think 5 months for jlpt1 is more than reasonable.

we're talking just passing the test. coincidentally i interviewed an experienced expat candidate recently and we discussed how worthless the test was in the grand scheme because all of his actual workplace japanese came from on site experience, not what he studied for the jlpt. i think i still maintain the real focus of the jlpt, once you get the absolute minimum 2 grammar down, are the kanji. the test is more for catching yourself up to be literate.

edit: i think within these next 2 weeks of going back, I can pull off a new OT.. sorry for the delay lol. let me gather together something of a draft of a new thread and then I can post it here to get you guys' thoughts

 

[Porcile]

I had to stop the white board method after 1200 kanji because I had to work full time in order generate some funds for my move, so in a way I'm starting from scratch, but with a nice cushion I can work with. I've debated whether or not to go for the N1 or N2 because I don't know how much time I'll be able to dedicate to doing the amount of study I think it needs for such a short period, but I think I'll just scare myself shitless into taking N1 and see what happens.

I can do about 2 hours of reading on my commute everyday, probably grammar revision during lunch and downtime at school, and then kanji when I get home. Listening is gonna be the part which kicks me in the nuts. Oh well. Then again, talking to some of the people out here about their Japanese study methods and routines, yeah...doesn't make you feel as bad. I have kept whiteboard method super secret though. GAF bros only.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

When is the test?

Either way, go for N1. You'll probably do fine, but even if you fail, it will be great practice for the next time.

No offense to anyone who wants to take it, but N2 and everything below it are not really worth anything in a practical sense.

 

[Porcile]

The N1 test is on July 3rd here in Japan, so that's three months to get vocab, grammar and listening up to scratch. Doable, but quite tough with a day job. I do have a cushion of kanji to work with though, and whatever happens the time I dedicated to studying prior to coming here has been immensely helpful, so overall even if I don't pass I'm pretty happy with my progress. I think the test will be fun to take at the very least.

 

[urfe]

When is the test?

Either way, go for N1. You'll probably do fine, but even if you fail, it will be great practice for the next time.

No offense to anyone who wants to take it, but N2 and everything below it are not really worth anything in a practical sense.

N2 is used quite a bit in requirements for jobs, etc. of course N1 is better though.

 

[PreyingShark]

If your goal is to stay in Japan, which I'm pretty sure it is going by some of your earlier posts, then you should probably aim to pass the N1 ASAP. So I would go with Zefah's suggestion of trying to pass it in July, and if you fail then oh well, you can try again in, like, December.

The way I see it, the sooner you get your "I can read and listen at a pretty high level!" certification over with, the easier it'll be to focus on learning how to sound like an intelligent human being when communicating instead of a filthy gaijin.

 

[I'm an expert]

Zefah's probably coming at it from our old school perspective. Back in our day it was literally 1 or nothing. Nowadays it doesn't seem to be case, or even really matter. It's not like my firm confirms you passed it or asks to see your certificate, we take your word for it. I think only schools confirm that at this point. The test is really just for you to be able to say to yourself "I can ready like a high schooler." He really won't need the test for anything so soon. I know I've put a lot of weight on the test with my posts here, but I'm from a different generation. If anything I try to use the test as more of a carrot on a stick for actually getting people to follow through with their study plans. If there was no JLPT1 bragging right at the end, most people simply lose the motivation.

btw anyone with basic image editing skills? some simple banner (plz not sakura or sushi or some dumb shit) for an OT would be nice

 

[RoKKeR]

How would I say "I'm sorry you are not feeling well/sick" or something along those lines? I am guessing that like, similar to when someone passes away, you don't just say すみません or ごめんなさい.

 

[Kaneda Shotaro]

I can't for the life of me find the "whiteboard method" post. There's too many pages to go back to. Should I just wait for the new OT? lol

 

[Resilient]

http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=186923177

Post 8330

 

[I'm an expert]

Thanks, needed to know that for the new OT..

 

[urfe]

How would I say "I'm sorry you are not feeling well/sick" or something along those lines? I am guessing that like, similar to when someone passes away, you don't just say すみません or ごめんなさい.

Typical line to convey sympathy over someone being sick is お大事に or お大事にしてください.

There's something(s) you say for when someone dies, but I forget what they are.

 

[Resilient]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=188497172&postcount=8588 the listening method at post 8588.

 

[I'm an expert]

did anyone even do the listening.. its the most fun..