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[Hitokage]

Please tell me you already knew chinese.

 

[Mikazuki]

Nope, I don't know any Chinese.

 

[vas_a_morir]

He means "kana." As in katakana and hiragana.

 

[Mikazuki]

LOL, I'm just learning the hiragana and katakana now.

 

[Hitokage]

&#28450;&#23383; <- kanji
&#12363;&#12394; <- kana

 

[zoku88]

I don't understand. Do you not know how to pronounce the kanji? You just know what they mean?

And seriously. ALL OF THEM? How long did that take.

 

[Mikazuki]

Yeah, I know the words.

The word zoku, that can go with the kanji for "vulgar" or the kanji for "belong"/"genus". A few other kanji have zoku as the word. I know it gets a lot more complex than that though.

I started in early 07. I would do it an hour or two a day, then I got sucked in. I took a break for a few months in late 07 and it took me months to recovered from that. The last couple months I was spending 50-60 hours a week learning and maintaining my kanji skillz, hehe

 

[vas_a_morir]

I like this dude. He's either fucking with us, or he is an idiot savant.

 

[Mikazuki]

:lol I can prove it if you guys think I'm lieing.

It's not that big of a deal. I sacrificed a small part of my life to learn them all. It's done. I still have so much to learn though. That's why I'm asking you guys for direction!

 

[zoku88]

The word zoku, that can go with the kanji for "vulgar" or the kanji for "belong"/"genus". A few other kanji have zoku as the word. I know it gets a lot more complex than that though.)

I promise everyone that I wasn't thinking of japanese when I picked this name.

That reminds me, I should look up stuff so I can find a fitting meaning for this name.

EDIT: I don't understand. Why would you do that? Do even jpn ppl learn all of the kanji (they definately don't learn kanji first.)

EDIT2: The one I told people before was the shivering one. I looked it up and found this example:

&#12365;&#12415;&#12418;&#12478;&#12463;&#12478;&#12463;&#12365;&#12390;&#12427;&#12363;&#12356;

Is that sexual? :lol :lol

 

[Mikazuki]

EDIT: I don't understand. Why would you do that? Do even jpn ppl learn all of the kanji (they definately don't learn kanji first.)

Cause, ever since I was a nerd on GAF 11 years ago I wanted to speak/read Japanese but never comitted to it. And for just as long, I've read about all these people complaining about what a huge problem kanji is.

One day I said to myself: I'm going to learn Japanese and go to Japan no matter what. And you know what? FUCK THE KANJI! I'LL LEARN IT ALL FIRST AND GET IT OUT OF THE WAY!"

Now that that's over, what next?

 

[Hitokage]

I hope you kept your &#38899;&#35501;&#12415; and &#35347;&#35501;&#12415; straight, with all the &#28450;&#35486; around.

 

[KTallguy]

"Hey, let's learn the Kanjis."

"Which ones?"

"All of them."

 

[Mikazuki]

"Hey, let's learn the Kanjis."

"Which ones?"

"All of them."

ROFL :lol ROFL

That's what I said to myself everyday!

I took this picture after I learned them all.

 

[KTallguy]

So Mr. Kanji Guru, did you ever think that in your years and years of pouring over the heisig method, or whatever you used, that learning kanji without the context of the actual Japanese language doesn't really mean anything at all if you're trying to communicate?

Well, except that if you can write &#34196;&#34183; in a bar in Japan, Japanese girls' clothing just falls right off.
Remember that one, kids.

 

[Mikazuki]

So Mr. Kanji Guru, did you ever think that in your years and years of pouring over the heisig method, or whatever you used, that learning kanji without the context of the actual Japanese language doesn't really mean anything at all if you're trying to communicate?

Well, except that if you can write &#34196;&#34183; in a bar in Japan, Japanese girls' clothing just falls right off.
Remember that one, kids.

Minus the 4 months break it was only like 15 months.

I know this wasn't the "best" way of learning Japanese, but I was motivated to learn the kanji first and got it done. It's over now. I want to move on.

I've learned it already and am now asking where I should go next. Why are you mocking me over something I've already finished and am ready to move on from?

 

[RevenantKioku]

Don't be dicks. Getting the kanji done is a big step. It means a lot. Now you apply it to learning the language.

EDIT: I don't understand. Why would you do that? Do even jpn ppl learn all of the kanji (they definately don't learn kanji first.)

While it is possible to learn like the Japanese learn, you do not have to learn like the Japanese learn.

I'm just surprised he used that book. I found it annoying as shit.

Minus the 4 months break it was only like 15 months.

I know this wasn't the "best" way of learning Japanese, but I was motivated to learn the kanji first and got it done. It's over now. I want to move on.

I've learned it already and am now asking where I should go next. Why are you mocking me over something I've already finished and am ready to move on from?

Go to www.alljapaneseallthetime.com and look into the sentences. That'll probably be the best step for you.

 

[KTallguy]

I've learned it already and am now asking where I should go next. Why are you mocking me over something I've already finished and am ready to move on from?

Sorry to tease you, but are you referring to &#24120;&#29992;&#28450;&#23383;&#65311;
Did you also memorize &#20154;&#21517;&#29992;&#28450;&#23383;&#65311;
Did you take the &#26085;&#26412;&#28450;&#23383;&#33021;&#21147;&#26908;&#23450;&#35430;&#39443; and pass level 1?

If you can claim all that, then you're free to say you've learned "all" of the kanji.
It looks like you may have just learned all of the&#12288;&#24120;&#29992;&#28450;&#23383;, which is a pretty good thing.

If you want to know where to go next, start reading books and newspapers.
Also maybe take a class or two... because no matter how well you can write and read, if you don't have good speaking skills Japanese people will still treat you like a 1st grader.

 

[Mikazuki]

Don't be dicks. Getting the kanji done is a big step. It means a lot. Now you apply it to learning the language.

While it is possible to learn like the Japanese learn, you do not have to learn like the Japanese learn.

I'm just surprised he used that book. I found it annoying as shit.

Kioku, thanks for always being supportive when I've mentioned it before. I saw a post where you said manga/tv/other stuff, but it looks like it disappeared?

Why don't you like that book? I thought it kicked ass. The descriptions for each kanji, going over what the elements were communicating helped me a ton. I've browed other kanji books without any history of the kanji at all and felt like it would have been much harder/boring.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Sorry to tease you, but are you referring to &#24120;&#29992;&#28450;&#23383;&#65311;
Did you also memorize &#20154;&#21517;&#29992;&#28450;&#23383;&#65311;
Did you take the &#26085;&#26412;&#28450;&#23383;&#33021;&#21147;&#26908;&#23450;&#35430;&#39443; and pass level 1?

If you can claim all that, then you're free to say you've learned "all" of the kanji.

If you want to know where to go next, start reading books and newspapers, I guess.

What is this ego dick smashing stuff? Christ. Kanji isn't enough to pass JLPT1, but it's pretty clear he meant the jouyou kanji, unless I'm just retarded and somehow got that out of it?
Anyway, not like the dude is saying he is master of Japanese or anything. There needs to be a lot fucking less hating going on in this thread, for serious.

Kioku, thanks for always being supportive when I've mentioned it before. I saw a post where you said manga/tv/other stuff, but it looks like it disappeared?

Not sure what you're talking about? But just start ramping up on the Japanese input. Output will follow.

Why don't you like that book? I thought it kicked ass. The descriptions for each kanji, going over what the elements were communicating helped me a ton. I've browed other kanji books without any history of the kanji at all and felt like it would have been much harder/boring.

I'm not a fan of the "do every bit of the kanji together" method, but if shit works for you (I hope you are daily reviewing somehow) then it works.

 

[Hitokage]

I somehow doubt he learned the estimated 50,000+ characters in existence, especially all the ones nobody cares about.

 

[Mikazuki]

Sorry to tease you, but are you referring to &#24120;&#29992;&#28450;&#23383;?
Did you also memorize &#20154;&#21517;&#29992;&#28450;&#23383;?
Did you take the &#26085;&#26412;&#28450;&#23383;&#33021;&#21147;&#26908;&#23450;&#35430;&#39443; and pass level 1?

If you can claim all that, then you're free to say you've learned "all" of the kanji.

If you want to know where to go next, start reading books and newspapers.
Also maybe take a class or two... because no matter how well you can write and read, if you don't have good speaking skills Japanese people will still treat you like a 1st grader.

My computer is 8 years old and falling apart. I can't install and read Japanese fonts. I'll be getting a new one next week.

Ok, I can read books and newspapers. Any specific recommendations for newbies? With Goemon on DS, I was recognizing every kanji, but felt lost with the hiragana.

 

[Mikazuki]

I somehow doubt he learned the estimated 50,000+ characters in existence, especially all the ones nobody cares about.

Yeah, I just learned the joyo kanji. I'll worry about the others as they come up.

 

[RevenantKioku]

My computer is 8 years old and falling apart. I can't install and read Japanese fonts. I'll be getting a new one next week.

Ok, I can read books and newspapers. Any specific recommendations for newbies? With Goemon on DS, I was recognizing every kanji, but felt lost with the hiragana.

See if you can find Heisig's Remembering the Kana, or alternately
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/hiragana.html
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/katakana.html

 

[KTallguy]

Not ego thumping! Hell I don't think I could pass kanji kentei level 2 anyway!

Just when you said "I learned all the Kanji", I immediately thought you were being funny, as there are 6000+ kanji out there that are used in Japan :lol

But learning all Jouyou kanji is an impressive feat. I apologize for misunderstanding you.

I tried the Heisig method, but I had already been studying Japanese for 2 years, and trying to learn a brand new method that kind of "makes up" mnemonic devices really didn't jive with my previous experience. Also it's difficult to relate to Japanese people, because you can't explain when you don't know a kanji about the story in your head. :lol

If you really want to learn Japanese, I suggest taking some communication classes and moving there for a few years, if you're young and have spare time.

 

[Mikazuki]

Not sure what you're talking about? But just start ramping up on the Japanese input. Output will follow.

Ok...the library near me has some Japanese books. I'll try to get childrens books and go from there? I can also watch Ebichu again. Ebichu doesn't talk too fast and the subtitles help .

I'm not a fan of the "do every bit of the kanji together" method, but if shit works for you (I hope you are daily reviewing somehow) then it works.

Oh yeah, I'll be reviewing everyday for sure! I already found out what happens if you don't.

Well, like when I learned the kanji for "Warship" I just said to myself "Ok I put the kanji for ship/fune to the left of the kanji for supervise/ran"

The more I learned, the more I picked up on combinations of elements/previous kanji and it kept getting easier and easier for me.

 

[KTallguy]

Well, like when I learned the kanji for "Warship" I just said to myself "Ok I put the kanji for ship/fune to the left of the kanji for supervise/ran"

Oh, if only it was always that simple!! :lol

 

[RevenantKioku]

Ok...the library near me has some Japanese books. I'll try to get childrens books and go from there? I can also watch Ebichu again. Ebichu doesn't talk too fast and the subtitles help .

Subtitles bad!
Get what you're interested in. Seriously. If it's hard, well, just get to the dictionaries. My goal right now is working towards using Japanese-Japanese dictionaries. A bit of a pain at the moment, but every day....
Also, get the grammar dictionaries! They are a goddamned blessing.

Oh yeah, I'll be reviewing everyday for sure! I already found out what happens if you don't.

Well, like when I learned the kanji for "Warship" I just said to myself "Ok I put the kanji for ship/fune to the left of the kanji for supervise/ran"

The more I learned, the more I picked up on combinations of elements/previous kanji and it kept getting easier and easier for me.

Yeah, that's basically Heisig's method.

Oh, if only it was always that simple!! :lol

Actually, it is! Well, for writing at least. Reading is another beast entirely.

 

[Mikazuki]

Not ego thumping! Hell I don't think I could pass kanji kentei level 2 anyway!

Just when you said "I learned all the Kanji", I immediately thought you were being funny, as there are 6000+ kanji out there that are used in Japan :lol

But learning all Jouyou kanji is an impressive feat. I apologize for misunderstanding you.

I tried the Heisig method, but I had already been studying Japanese for 2 years, and trying to learn a brand new method that kind of "makes up" mnemonic devices really didn't jive with my previous experience. Also it's difficult to relate to Japanese people, because you can't explain when you don't know a kanji about the story in your head. :lol

If you really want to learn Japanese, I suggest taking some communication classes and moving there for a few years, if you're young and have spare time.

Thanks. I'll try simple books first then. If I'm not making any progress, I can look into classes. I do want to live in Japan for a few years at least. That's why I'm doing this.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Hey, I remember your FF4 thread now, haha.
Just goes to show you that shame and humiliation are excellent motivators!

 

[Mikazuki]

Hey, I remember your FF4 thread now, haha.
Just goes to show you that shame and humiliation are excellent motivators!

LOL, maybe I should try playing it again?

I've hardly played videogames besides Mario Galaxy the last year and a half.... Are there any Japanese games in particular that are especially good for learning with?

I LOVED Earthbound, so I'd really like to try tackling Mother 3.

 

[RevenantKioku]

The original is all kana, which still gives me headaches. The GBA one has a kanji mode, I believe.

 

[KTallguy]

LOL, maybe I should try playing it again?

I've hardly played videogames besides Mario Galaxy the last year and a half.... Are there any Japanese games in particular that are especially good for learning with?

I LOVED Earthbound, so I'd really like to try tackling Mother 3.

Jeez... it's hard to say what games are good to START learning Japanese with... because to be honest you have to be a decent level to really understand what's going on, and FF games use all sorts of fun terms that you don't usually encounter on the street.

I guess you don't know any grammar, huh ... dang you definitely need to take a class :lol

 

[RevenantKioku]

Nah, not necessarily. Grab the grammar dictionaries, give the first one a go through, start playing stuff. The more you read and hear, the more you get a sense of things.
Pretty much everything I learned in my 9 classes is covered in that beginning level grammar book.

 

[KTallguy]

Yea, I guess I'm afraid that if you don't have someone correcting grammar in the beginning, you'll develop bad habits. Bad habits die hard.

It's nice to have a teacher telling you how to say stuff in the very beginning. Good for your accent too.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Oh most definitely. But I'm not saying grab grammar books and try to make your own sentences. I'm saying grab grammar books to understand good Japanese sentences. (From movies, books, manga, games, anime etc.)
Even with great classes you will still make mistakes and have misunderstandings. It just happens.
I'm definitely not anti-class, they are great to help you out! But you cannot just rely on them. A lot of this has to be your own time and effort.

 

[Mikazuki]

Oohhh, I remember I have this book but never used it. I skimmed through it and I think it'll do me a lot of good.

Tomorrow after work I'll review kanji for an hour or two, then dive into this.

 

[KTallguy]

And please, please don't copy most anime accents, inflection, vocabulary.

IMO Dramas are a bit more "real life" and can really provide you with some good vocab.
It's probably too soon to start this, but you can turn one on with subtitles and try to copy the tone and inflection of the speaker.

Also get a Japanese friend (not a girlfriend, you'll sound like a girl), if possible.

 

[RevenantKioku]

On the same hand, don't think that anime or women are bad to listen to.

 

[Hitokage]

Given the choice you should go for live-action shows, because it's mostly in natural speech with accompanying expressions, mannerisms, and maybe even spontaneity, rather than an affected voice in a recording booth with reduced depth where nonverbal cues may or may not be animated. It's just easier to absorb.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Well, there is a wide variety of stuff out there, go nuts! I love watching the South Park movie in Japanese, for example. :lol

 

[Hitokage]

Oh definitely. Just be conscious of whatever medium you're using, and this isn't just a live-action/animated thing. Speech and writing are different takes on the same language with slightly different rules, in both English and Japanese, to say nothing of the various kinds of speech and writing.

Not that you have to learn all of that yet, just keep it in mind.

 

[rotaryspirit]

Oohhh, I remember I have this book but never used it. I skimmed through it and I think it'll do me a lot of good.

Tomorrow after work I'll review kanji for an hour or two, then dive into this.

I hope you have the textbook to accompany that. :lol

No seriously, the Genki series is pretty much the best thing that ever happened to learning Japanese grammar in an orderly, well-explained fashion.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Wow that is pretty amazing. I can't believe someone used that Heisig method that RevenantKioku suggested and learned all of the Joyo Kanji without very much Japanese knowledge at all. I would find myself at a horrible disadvantage only knowing what the character meant in English, but it is definitely better than not knowing anything about the Kanji at all. I guess for you it will be almost like a Chinese person learning Japanese for the first time, except you know quite a bit less Kanji and you have absolutely zero context for Kanji usage.

I personally reccomend that you pick up an electronic dictionary (one with a "jump" function that lets you select words in each passage and look them up), a few "Kanji Drills" that Japanese elementary school students use, and a bunch of manga and novels. Pick up some elementary school student "kokugo" textbooks as well if you can. The Kanji drills should be easy for you since you know how to write all of the Joyo Kanji already, but they will tell you the various readings and improve your vocabulary by giving you word examples. The Kokugo textbooks will introduce you to proper sentence structures and grammar forms through context and they will also give you a chance to read some good stories. Novels and Manga will also help you learn grammar / colloquial expressions and improve your vocabulary. The electronic dictionary will help because it will enable you to quickly look up pretty much anything you don't understand.

If you have the option, you should watch as much Japanese TV as you can too (if you must watch anime, watch stuff that is based in the real world like Crayon Shinchan or something). The most important thing when learning a language, in my opinion, is to immerse yourself, so try and make some friends who you can actually use the language with. Once you get good enough you might want to try making an active effort at actually thinking your thoughts in Japanese. Also, try to use the Japanese > Japanese dictionary as much as possible.

You should also make an extra effort to make sure your pronunciation is excellent. People will take you a lot more seriously if you have good pronunciation.

Anyway, good luck! I am really impressed with your dedication even if I wouldn't recommend the path you took to anyone else.

 

[KTallguy]

You should also make an extra effort to make sure your pronunciation is excellent. People will take you a lot more seriously if you have good pronunciation.

This.

I got lucky, and managed to nail down decent pronunciation at an early.
Some of my classmates in Japan didn't have as much luck.
If you have a heavy accent it's really hard for Japanese people to take you seriously, much less understand what you're saying.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

This.

I got lucky, and managed to nail down decent pronunciation at an early.
Some of my classmates in Japan didn't have as much luck.
If you have a heavy accent it's really hard for Japanese people to take you seriously, much less understand what you're saying.

It is interesting how important pronunciation is for Japanese. I can hold an English conversation with people from all over the globe and tons of weird accents, but something is just extremely jarring about bad Japanese pronunciation. Even if the person has an excellent vocabulary and has the knowledge to string together good sentences, I simply cannot concentrate on what they are actually saying if they have bad pronunciation. I'm sure it is even worse for native Japanese people.

I wonder why that is...

 

[RevenantKioku]

I've only been here a year and people can already tell I live in Kansai just from listening to me...
Get a recording and spend like an hour practicing &#12425;&#12426;&#12427;&#12428;&#12429;&#12290; It is worth it.

And yeah, regarding what you watch, you probably wouldn't mimic how they talk and what they say in say, the Lord of the Rings movies, but that doesn't mean hearing that English would be bad for you as a student of the language.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Okay one thing I've yet to find a way to get is given a sentence...how can I figure out some readings?
Okay, let's go with this one out of the manga I'm reading:

&#27018;&#12373;&#12435;&#12418;&#25265;&#12356;&#12390;&#12415;&#12427;&#65311;

Looking up &#25265;&#12367; yields &#12356;&#12384;&#12367;&#12288;and&#12288;&#12384;&#12367;. They have the same entries. The only difference I am seeing in my Japanese dictionary is one of the definitions for &#12356;&#12384;&#12367; is &#12384;&#12367;. So basically, how would I get a feeling of which way to read it?

 

[Zoe]

Looking up &#25265;&#12367; yields &#12356;&#12384;&#12367;&#12288;and&#12288;&#12384;&#12367;. They have the same entries. The only difference I am seeing in my Japanese dictionary is one of the definitions for &#12356;&#12384;&#12367; is &#12384;&#12367;. So basically, how would I get a feeling of which way to read it?

You'd typically go with what's most colloquial, wouldn't you? Though you'd also want to take the character's normal speech patterns into account.

Considering &#25265;&#12367; is cliche-love-song word #1238, I immediately thought of &#12384;&#12367; before reading the rest of your post.

 

[RevenantKioku]

You'd typically go with what's most colloquial, wouldn't you? Though you'd also want to take the character's normal speech patterns into account.

Considering &#25265;&#12367; is cliche-love-song word #1238, I immediately thought of &#12384;&#12367; before reading the rest of your post.

You would but... if you didn't know, what's a good way to find out? I never heard &#12384;&#12367; or &#12356;&#12384;&#12367; before. My guess was that it was &#12384;&#12367; only because high-school kids are inherently lazy and it is the shorter word. :lol
This is my first time reading a &#12405;&#12426;&#12364;&#12394;-free manga and it is going better than expected, at least.