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[Zoe]

^ ditto for slang in general. Some of these high school manga are getting harder and harder :\

Well, I mean something like:

知っていて

VS

知っていろ

I think there is a subtle difference, but it actually changes the meaning a bit. I just have no idea what that is, and nobody can explain it to me. But, Gaf is full of people who are skilled at the language. So, Halp.　Perhaps one is present perfect, and the other is present perfect continuous? Like, the first example is "I have known" and the second is "I have been knowing" or more likely "Having known" (which is really akward, but you get the drift)

て and ろ are imperative forms...

(well, techincally て is just the conjunction(?), but you don't always say the word that comes after)

Gah. I've forgotten all of my grammar terms.

 

[vas_a_morir]

^ ditto for slang in general. Some of these high school manga are getting harder and harder :\



て and ろ are imperative forms...

(well, techincally て is just the conjunction(?), but you don't always say the word that comes after)

Gah. I've forgotten all of my grammar terms.

We need a 3rd opinion. Grammar is harder to explain than learn.

 

[Link1110]

We need a 3rd opinion. Grammar is harder to explain than learn.

電話を探してございます-I request that you please look for the phone.
電話を探してください-Please look for the phone.
電話を探して-Look for the phone.
電話を探せ-Look for the damn phone!
電話を探しやがれ-Look for the damn phone, shithead!

 

[vas_a_morir]

電話を探してございます-I request that you please look for the phone.
電話を探してください-Please look for the phone.
電話を探して-Look for the phone.
電話を探せ-Look for the damn phone!
電話を探しやがれ-Look for the damn phone, shithead!

Yet, here is where I think we diverge.

That is the command/request form (aka imperitive) Yet, i'm working with the "-teiru" form.　Like, for example, 僕の母は結婚している。　I'm not commanding anybody to get married, I'm referring to a past event (to marry) That Reflects a current state of being. Perhaps a more common example is "わかっています。” This means "I understand" more or less. So, my guess is that ”わかっていて”　Would translate to roughly "I have understood" which is a subtle, but real difference. You know what I'm saying? Am I wrong?

 

[Zoe]

You know what I'm saying? Am I wrong?

I think you're confusing everybody by your use of ろ.

 

[vas_a_morir]

I think you're confusing everybody by your use of ろ.

Yeah, I'm confused by it, too. But, it's a real thing that SOMEBODY has to be able to explain up on this forum.

Present perfect continuous? I not know.

 

[Zoe]

Yeah, I'm confused by it, too. But, it's a real thing that SOMEBODY has to be able to explain up on this forum.

Present perfect continuous? I not know.

I can only think of using ろ in a imperative/suggestive(?) form though.

Can you provide some complete sentences that you've seen, fully conjugated? Don't just throw out verbs.

 

[vas_a_morir]

I can only think of using ろ in a imperative/suggestive(?) form though.

Can you provide some complete sentences that you've seen, fully conjugated? Don't just throw out verbs.

Damn 500 errors. Try searching for a common verb like "shitteiro" (I am on a friend's computer, and he doesn't have the language shit set up on it and I'm too lazy to do it) in google and see what sentences it appears in.

really, I appreciate your help, as I am a relative newb, yet not a new to learning languages, just this one.

 

[RevenantKioku]

I just asked my boss and she said it's kinda like なさい.
The sentence fragment I had found was 戦争知っていろ大人達 which she said would be about 戦争知りなさい大人達 which is a bit to wrap my brain about but apparently not heinous Japanese?

 

[Shirokun]

I was wondering if someone could better explain the kanji for 取. I know it means roughly "to take", but I've seen this kanji everywhere and in many places the translation doesn't seem to hold up.

Could anyone shed some more light on this kanji, its seemingly multiple uses?

 

[Zoe]

I was wondering if someone could better explain the kanji for 取. I know it means roughly "to take", but I've seen this kanji everywhere and in many places the translation doesn't seem to hold up.

Could anyone shed some more light on this kanji, its seemingly multiple uses?

You sure you're not mistaking it for 敗? I can only think of 取 in the "take" sense unless you're talking about compounds.

 

[Jamesfrom818]

As far as conversational Japanese goes, how well do you think I'd do with just Rosetta Stone? I took 4 quarters of Japanese in college and I roughly remember rules and sentence structure but I can't seem to remember vocabulary.

 

[RevenantKioku]

As far as conversational Japanese goes, how well do you think I'd do with just Rosetta Stone? I took 4 quarters of Japanese in college and I roughly remember rules and sentence structure but I can't seem to remember vocabulary.

Spend that money on some DVDs, manga, TV shows or books.

You sure you're not mistaking it for 敗? I can only think of 取 in the "take" sense unless you're talking about compounds.

Yeah, I'm thinking he has to mean verb compounds, kinda like 込む is fucking everywhere.

 

[Jamesfrom818]

Spend that money on some DVDs, manga, TV shows or books.

Who said I'd be spending money? Yarrrr.....

Spoiler

kidding, kidding

 

[BarrelMakingPenguin]

As far as conversational Japanese goes, how well do you think I'd do with just Rosetta Stone? I took 4 quarters of Japanese in college and I roughly remember rules and sentence structure but I can't seem to remember vocabulary.

I'm also curious about Rosetta Stone...can anyone vouch for the Japanese version?

 

[RevenantKioku]

I worked with the Rosetta Stone software for a while...
Like I said, get some books, manga, movies, TV shows.

 

[BarrelMakingPenguin]

I worked with the Rosetta Stone software for a while...
Like I said, get some books, manga, movies, TV shows.

Really? I already have quite a few of each of those but I really don't know if I'd be able to learn that way. I feel that I might do much better with a strictly step by step/lesson by lesson set-up while using the movies and manga as another way to practice on the side.

 

[RevenantKioku]

You're not going to learn to ride a bicycle by looking at one all day.

The way I look at it is this. You weren't exactly LEARNING grammar when you in school, but you were having it EXPLAINED to you. You may have already heard it before, but didn't quite get it or something. This is where the grammar dictionaries and other dictionaries come in. Glance through some of the resources that I listed in the first post. Hell, maybe even grab a textbook to give you a good beginning kick in the ass, but the only way you are going to get good at reading and listening to real stuff in Japanese is by reading and listening to real stuff in Japanese. You won't get it all your first time. Or your second time. Or your third. But you'll get a little more. Hell my playthrough of Persona 4 is going much smoother than Persona 3 and I haven't taken a course in the meantime, and it sure isn't just because I live in Japan.

I took the Advanced Language course that the JET Program offers and passed every single test without actually doing the coursework. It was through seeing the stuff in similar ways in games, books and websites and (rarely) consulting my grammar dictionaries for points I wasn't clear on.

 

[Shirokun]

Really? I already have quite a few of each of those but I really don't know if I'd be able to learn that way. I feel that I might do much better with a strictly step by step/lesson by lesson set-up while using the movies and manga as another way to practice on the side.

I definitely agree with getting games, movies and especially manga at some point. I don't think they're that useful without any sort of basic knowledge of Japanese, but once you have the foundation in place, I don't think anything will advance you as far short of living in Japan. This has been my recent experience, anyway.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Being here isn't some mythical thing though, since there are plenty of people I know who have been living here MUUUUCH longer than me and barely have any Japanese skills.

It's all about exposure.

Give Tae Kim's Guide a spin through, master your hiragana and katakana and begin your kanji. Find some Japanese music you like, get some news podcasts to listen to and just start over-saturating yourself. It helps more than you'd think.

 

[BarrelMakingPenguin]

Cool, thanks for the tips. One final question: How hard is it to grasp kanji, really? Some of the previous japanese threads on here made it sound ridiculously hard...I'm all for putting in the effort but I just want to brace myself for the frustration that will inevitably follow.

 

[jacf29]

Being here isn't some mythical thing though, since there are plenty of people I know who have been living here MUUUUCH longer than me and barely have any Japanese skills.

It's all about exposure.

Give Tae Kim's Guide a spin through, master your hiragana and katakana and begin your kanji. Find some Japanese music you like, get some news podcasts to listen to and just start over-saturating yourself. It helps more than you'd think.

I can't find any podcasts that aren't annoying as hell when you leave them on all day. The yomiuri has that annoying english they repeat every damn podcast, and that music they use at the beginning and between commercials.

 

[jacf29]

I worked with the Rosetta Stone software for a while...
Like I said, get some books, manga, movies, TV shows.

How did you like Rosetta Stone? I have it and I'm not a big fan. The writing portion of it is completely useless and shows the lack of thought they put into the product.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Cool, thanks for the tips. One final question: How hard is it to grasp kanji, really? Some of the previous japanese threads on here made it sound ridiculously hard...I'm all for putting in the effort but I just want to brace myself for the frustration that will inevitably follow.

It won't be "easy" but it is not impossible. There are definitely the haters in this thread, but considering that I know two JLPT1 toting dudes who thanked me for showing them Heisig's method as it helped them with their kanji, I'd like to think there is some merit in the system.

Yomiuri is the one I use... Yeah, I hate the English voice and the music (sounds like those old Doublemint Gum commercials) but the pickings are unfortunately slim.

I didn't like Rosetta Stone at all. I mean, if you think about it, the software is kinda designed to be like watching a TV show. Only one that is boring as fuck.

 

[jacf29]

It won't be "easy" but it is not impossible. There are definitely the haters in this thread, but considering that I know two JLPT1 toting dudes who thanked me for showing them Heisig's method as it helped them with their kanji, I'd like to think there is some merit in the system.

Yomiuri is the one I use... Yeah, I hate the English voice and the music (sounds like those old Doublemint Gum commercials) but the pickings are unfortunately slim.

I didn't like Rosetta Stone at all. I mean, if you think about it, the software is kinda designed to be like watching a TV show. Only one that is boring as fuck.

Yeah. I am midway through pimsleur 2 and doing Heiseg at the same time. I'm running into a big motivation hurdle with Heiseg though. I'm at 900 right now and since I have looked at it in 5 days I have 460 kanji to review. I really want to have all 2,042 done by September 1st, but that is looking more and more hard to do by the day. Do you have any recommendations? Part of the hard thing is that I'm working 45 hours a week at dominos and am going crazy barely doing anything for fun for these next two months until I make the move to Japan.

 

[RevenantKioku]

The only thing you can do is set a daily minimum/maximum. I had a 30/day for Heisig one and I always tried to get through 100 reviews or the remaining, whichever was less.
Here's the thing. When you miss a day just let it be. Don't say you're going to do 60 on this day or 200 reviews. Just go back to your normal set numbers.
It took me from September to around December 15th to finish RtK1. RtK3 is going much more slowly but I am busier and set it to only 20/day because I am also doing sentences.

 

[jacf29]

The only thing you can do is set a daily minimum/maximum. I had a 30/day for Heisig one and I always tried to get through 100 reviews or the remaining, whichever was less.
Here's the thing. When you miss a day just let it be. Don't say you're going to do 60 on this day or 200 reviews. Just go back to your normal set numbers.
It took me from September to around December 15th to finish RtK1. RtK3 is going much more slowly but I am busier and set it to only 20/day because I am also doing sentences.

Aren't you supposed to review all of them under review? Or can you only do 100 and keep trucking along with learning more kanji?

 

[RevenantKioku]

Oh yeah, the way the software works, eh? Well, then try your best to get caught up. I'd say learning 1 kanji takes about the time of maybe six or seven reviews, so you know, work it!

 

[jacf29]

Oh yeah, the way the software works, eh? Well, then try your best to get caught up. I'd say learning 1 kanji takes about the time of maybe six or seven reviews, so you know, work it!

Thanks. I'll try my best. I want do be done with the first book so when I live in Japan I can start learning only applicable things with the kanji that I can actually use when reading stuff.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Well, it's all about exposure. I mean, why do I know the kanji for the place names of where I live and what train stops I go to frequently?

 

[jacf29]

Well, it's all about exposure. I mean, why do I know the kanji for the place names of where I live and what train stops I go to frequently?

yep i know what you mean. One benefit of doing the kanji is it's almost therapeutic. I'm so nervous about moving to Japan, and when I write kanji over and over again it takes my mind off that.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Where you gonna be at?

 

[jacf29]

Where you gonna be at?

The Kanto area. My company won't tell me where at in the Kanto area until 3 weeks prior to departure. It could be Tokyo, Chiba, Yokohama, Saitama City, or those areas really far north in Kanto. Where are you living in Japan?

 

[RevenantKioku]

Kanto? LAME

I be down in Kansai. Nara Prefecture, specifically.

 

[jacf29]

Kanto? LAME

I be down in Kansai. Nara Prefecture, specifically.

Yeah it will be even lamer if I end up in some small town in northern Kanto. Then I'll start learning Japanese real fast hanging out with the elderly.

 

[Brofist]

Yeah it will be even lamer if I end up in some small town in northern Kanto. Then I'll start learning Japanese real fast hanging out with the elderly.

Who knows you may end up in a decent place within Kanto. It's not just a matter of being in Kansai or Kanto, it's the location that matters.

I live in downtown Osaka minutes from Osaka Station, so for me living in some little farm village in a buttfuck area of Kansai would be no different than living in the middle of Hokkaido.

 

[vas_a_morir]

I just asked my boss and she said it's kinda like なさい.
The sentence fragment I had found was 戦争知っていろ大人達 which she said would be about 戦争知りなさい大人達 which is a bit to wrap my brain about but apparently not heinous Japanese?

Hmm... then it's decided: I am never going to use that conjugation. Fuck it.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Ye gods.
I am on the flower section of RtK3 and holy shit are there some fucked up kanji here. These I will fail routinely, I imagine, but I guess I'm not so worried about them

 

[Deleted member 17706]

電話を探してございます-I request that you please look for the phone.
電話を探してください-Please look for the phone.
電話を探して-Look for the phone.
電話を探せ-Look for the damn phone!
電話を探しやがれ-Look for the damn phone, shithead!

No... just no.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Yet, here is where I think we diverge.

That is the command/request form (aka imperitive) Yet, i'm working with the "-teiru" form.　Like, for example, 僕の母は結婚している。　I'm not commanding anybody to get married, I'm referring to a past event (to marry) That Reflects a current state of being. Perhaps a more common example is "わかっています。” This means "I understand" more or less. So, my guess is that ”わかっていて”　Would translate to roughly "I have understood" which is a subtle, but real difference. You know what I'm saying? Am I wrong?

わかっていて sounds extremely weird, but it would be a command.

If you want "I have understood" it would be past tense, so go with "わかっていました". It means "I used to understand".

I'm really having trouble understanding what exactly you are asking. I'm not good with grammar terms in English or Japanese, so some context and an English version of what you want to say might help...

 

[vas_a_morir]

わかっていて sounds extremely weird, but it would be a command.

If you want "I have understood" it would be past tense, so go with "わかっていました". It means "I used to understand".

I'm really having trouble understanding what exactly you are asking. I'm not good with grammar terms in English or Japanese, so some context and an English version of what you want to say might help...

Aight, there is a song by Eastern Youth that says the following in the beginning:

神様、　あなたは何でも知っていて？
This is exactly as it appears in the lyric book. What exactly is Yoshino saying? That can't be a command.

It's been several Ｗｅｅｋｓ, I don't know where I encountered the "ていろ　Ｆｏｒｍ”　ａｎｙｍｏｒｅ．　Ｓｏｒｒｙ．　

I really should ask a native speaker. When I get my answer, I'll share it with the neo-class.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Aight, there is a song by Eastern Youth that says the following in the beginning:

神様、　あなたは何でも知っていて？
This is exactly as it appears in the lyric book. What exactly is Yoshino saying? That can't be a command.

It's been several Ｗｅｅｋｓ, I don't know where I encountered the "ていろ　Ｆｏｒｍ”　ａｎｙｍｏｒｅ．　Ｓｏｒｒｙ．　

I really should ask a native speaker. When I get my answer, I'll share it with the neo-class.

Yeah, those lyrics are just fine. Using 知っていて like that is not necessarily common, but just think of it as a shortened version of "知っていて下さい", or a command / request form of "知っている".

Question marks are also used in colloquial Japanese even when a question isn't implied. It is kind of hard for me to explain it...

 

[rotaryspirit]

I'm going to live in Fukui!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's not Kansai but it might as well be!

電話を探してございます-I request that you please look for the phone.
電話を探してください-Please look for the phone.
電話を探して-Look for the phone.
電話を探せ-Look for the damn phone!
電話を探しやがれ-Look for the damn phone, shithead!

If you are trying to speak 尊敬語 it would probably look like this

電話をお探しください

But in this context, it would be someone to tell you to do that for your own good, not your own personal request.

 

[vas_a_morir]

Okay, I think I understand.

for example, the difference between

"見て下さい”　-which would mean more or less "please look" as in the action of looking.
AND
"見ていて下さい”　－Which would mean more or less "please watch" as in the perpetual action of looking.

What's throwing me off is I don't quite understand what those lyrics I posted earlier are saying exactly. How can you ask a question in command form? It's like Futurama:

"Go out with meeeeeeeEEE?"

My first inclination was it was Hisashi saying "God,　do you know everything/anything?" Yet what vexes me is why it would it say "Shitteite" instead of "Shitteiru?" Lyrics are always way harder to understand than Dramas and such because there is no context to help out. My guess would be it's a very respectful way of asking a question, but I am asking about grammar far beyond my level at the moment, so I'm taking shots in the dark here.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Okay, I think I understand.

for example, the difference between

"見て下さい”　-which would mean more or less "please look" as in the action of looking.
AND
"見ていて下さい”　－Which would mean more or less "please watch" as in the perpetual action of looking.

What's throwing me off is I don't quite understand what those lyrics I posted earlier are saying exactly. How can you ask a question in command form? It's like Futurama:

"Go out with meeeeeeeEEE?"

My first inclination was it was Hisashi saying "God,　do you know everything/anything?" Yet what vexes me is why it would it say "Shitteite" instead of "Shitteiru?" Lyrics are always way harder to understand than Dramas and such because there is no context to help out. My guess would be it's a very respectful way of asking a question, but I am asking about grammar far beyond my level at the moment, so I'm taking shots in the dark here.

It looks like you pretty much got it. Putting the いて into it expresses continuity so the "look vs watch" example is pretty good.

I have no idea what song you are getting that from and it is impossible to tell the context or the song-writers intentions when writing that, but looking at it alone is kind of comes across as "God, know everything about everything, okay?" or something like that.

The question mark at the end of a command is often used to express a lack of confidence.

 

[vas_a_morir]

It looks like you pretty much got it. Putting the いて into it expresses continuity so the "look vs watch" example is pretty good.

I have no idea what song you are getting that from and it is impossible to tell the context or the song-writers intentions when writing that, but looking at it alone is kind of comes across as "God, know everything about everything, okay?" or something like that.

The question mark at the end of a command is often used to express a lack of confidence.

Ah, so the question mark does not serve the same function necessarily as "-ka" in the long form, or can that be used as a way to show uncertainty, as well?

Yeah, it's Eastern Youth. The song is (as this is a japanese thread )"Natsu no hi no gogo (夏の日の午&#24460"Here is a link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_0sagebXvM. This is the first song on the record I imported, and I've grown quite fond of this song.

I love Hisashi Yoshino's guitar playing so much, but I am told by Japanese people who were made to listen to them (they aren't very popular) that the lyrics are very weird, and a high school exchange student said she couldn't understand what he's talking about. Go figure.

 

[Mikazuki]

I learned all the Kanji late last week, and know pretty nothing else about the language.

I popped in Goemon for DS and was able to read the hiragana for "Konami" Otherwise, I'm totally lost and can't translate yet.

I'm familiar with the alphabet from remembering the Japanese words along with the kanji, but of course there's tons of different words depending on the context. I can somewhat understand what's going on by reading the kanji at least. I have very vague interpretation skills, but I got something at least.

Where do I go from here? Any particular book, DVD, website, college? Some of you are masters. I learned all the kanji, I'll go all the way no matter what. Please, just show me the best path.

Thanks for the advices.

 

[zoku88]

All of the kanji?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

All of the kanji?

Seriously... that would be quite impressive if true!

 

[Mikazuki]

Yup, I've mastered them all. But, it's time to move on! I want to speak and understand the language like you guys!