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[Zoe]

I get what the iteration marks ( ゝ and &#12446 do but I'm not really sure how common they are. Wikipedia says they are now only used in proper names. Is that really the only function they have now?

I wouldn't worry about them. I never learned about them, and I don't think I've ever seen them in use.

 

[MarzipaNMOS]

so i decided to start using the heisig method today... dunno how well I'll retain stuff but so far it doesn't seem too bad, a lot of the time I was able to "struggle" my way through to the kanji when i got stuck so that was pretty cool. I'm using a deck of like 1900 kanji and plan to review ~150 a day until i get through em all, then gradually lessen it to something around 40-50 a day. What's the best way to get sentences though? I can't really find any decks that incorporate the different readings do should I just WWWJDIC each kanji and make a sentence out of the good vocab"words (since he gives you one with each reading)? I really dont wanna spend time entering in that many sentences though haha.

 

[LeroyPantwether]

Could I please have a good translation of this.

--> 以前言ったかもしれませんが、私の兄は今サンフランシスコにいます


* I was making corrections on her email and her original English sentence was this.

--> My brother is in San Francisco now,maybe you know.

 

[Zoe]

I probably said this before, but my brother is in San Francisco.

 

[LeroyPantwether]

@Zoe
Perfect, thank you!

 

[Adent]

Well I have hiragana down now. It took about two days but I'm going to keep practicing. It's pretty neat to be able to read it even if I can't understand it. I'm still a bit confused on some of the other uses characters have besides representing a syllable though. I get what the iteration marks ( ゝ and &#12446 do but I'm not really sure how common they are. Wikipedia says they are now only used in proper names. Is that really the only function they have now? I still haven't read about particles yet either so I'll get around to that soon. I'll be working on actually writing hiragana while learning katakana at the same time now.

What are some good resources for learning vocabulary and grammar? I am probably going to pick up Remembering the Kanji after I learn katakana as that book seems to have helped a lot of people, but I'm not sure what resources are good for vocabulary and grammar.

I don't recommend wasting your time learning vocabulary lists and grammer. Especially right now, before you've finished "Remembering the Kanji". You should concentrate on RTK until you've finished it. People like textbooks for some reason. /shrugs Go ahead and do that if you want but wait till your done with RTK. I'm currently going through RTK and on the side I listen Pimsleur's Japanese course. You'll learn how sentences are put together and pickup vocabulary in context. Also more importantly you'll start getting used to the sounds of the language and if you make the effort to pronounce things and you won't end up with a horrible accent.

Before I started learning Japanese(this time) I looked at how other people are learning Japanese and I've noticed that the more successful people are using a certain method. They immerse themselves in Japanese. All the media they take in is in Japanese even if they don't understand it yet. They learn the Kanji. By using RTK and an SRS they learn the kanji and become literate. Then finally they start gathering sentences with Kanji and input them into their SRS. This way they learn the readings of the Kanji in the context of sentences they want know how to say.

Here are two websites that follow this method. www.antimoon.com and www.AJATT.com

 

[Cranzor]

I don't recommend wasting your time learning vocabulary lists and grammer. Especially right now, before you've finished "Remembering the Kanji". You should concentrate on RTK until you've finished it. People like textbooks for some reason. /shrugs Go ahead and do that if you want but wait till your done with RTK. I'm currently going through RTK and on the side I listen Pimsleur's Japanese course. You'll learn how sentences are put together and pickup vocabulary in context. Also more importantly you'll start getting used to the sounds of the language and if you make the effort to pronounce things and you won't end up with a horrible accent.

Before I started learning Japanese(this time) I looked at how other people are learning Japanese and I've noticed that the more successful people are using a certain method. They immerse themselves in Japanese. All the media they take in is in Japanese even if they don't understand it yet. They learn the Kanji. By using RTK and an SRS they learn the kanji and become literate. Then finally they start gathering sentences with Kanji and input them into their SRS. This way they learn the readings of the Kanji in the context of sentences they want know how to say.

Here are two websites that follow this method. www.antimoon.com and www.AJATT.com

Would learning vocabulary and grammar really be a waste of time? I know learning kanji is important but I don't see why I couldn't focus on multiple things at once. If I knew some vocabulary and grammar, I could at least read things that have furigana as practice. I don't know much about the language at this point but I know people in this thread do, so I'll definitely keep your post in consideration.

 

[beanman25]

I'm getting to the point where I can read a lot of stuff but have no idea what it says. Is there any good methods of learning where words stop in a sentence? Or does it just kind of translate as a phrase all together?

 

[Valygar]

so i decided to start using the heisig method today... dunno how well I'll retain stuff but so far it doesn't seem too bad, a lot of the time I was able to "struggle" my way through to the kanji when i got stuck so that was pretty cool. I'm using a deck of like 1900 kanji and plan to review ~150 a day until i get through em all, then gradually lessen it to something around 40-50 a day. What's the best way to get sentences though? I can't really find any decks that incorporate the different readings do should I just WWWJDIC each kanji and make a sentence out of the good vocab"words (since he gives you one with each reading)? I really dont wanna spend time entering in that many sentences though haha.

Wow... 150 new kanjis a day is a lot. If you are talking about kanjis to review, maybe something between 35-40 new kanji a day would get you to these review numbers.

I spend around 1 hour to learn 20 new kanji (maybe a bit more), and for reviews it is about 25 s for each kanji. I recommend http://kanji.koohii.com/ to use it as inspiration for the kanji stories, it will be faster.

I don't think sentences are really helpful if you are using heisig, since kanjis are usually combined with another ones to form a word that might have a different meaning than the kanji itself. I would leave that for later, to learn vocabulary and practice the grammar.

My studies right now are also focused on RTK. I'm on my 1375 kanji now, I plan to get to something like 1600 on august. My long term memory seems to be very bad, I forget most kanji (except the ones that are part of other kanjis) once they get to the 2 months or more time to review .

I want to get it done by the end of the year, and then I'm not sure. Maybe I will continue with Genki (recommended by a friend of mine) or use the ajatt method of sentences. But I can't figure out how to get new sentences and such, really . And it seems it takes time to input them into the SRS.

 

[midonnay]

Wow... 150 new kanjis a day is a lot. If you are talking about kanjis to review, maybe something between 35-40 new kanji a day would get you to these review numbers.

yup....150 new kanji a day = about 7 hours of study a day. And this is if you streamline the process by stealing stories from the RTK forum.

if using Anki, the reviews would build up to a peak of around 1500-2000 reviews a day. (if you're doing production and recognition)

and then gradually lessen to around 300 - 500 reviews a day over a couple of months.

I wouldn't recommend people go this road unless they have a shitload of spare time. Perhaps during summer holidays when you have a month off.

Otherwise a better strategy would be to concentrate on the 1000 most common kanji and learn the associated vocabulary that comes with it. A fair portion of the jouyou kanji you won't see unless you do alot of reading so it might be useful to have a targeted approach

eg: RTK lite

http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?pid=84164#p84164


If you don't have the spare time to get through them quickly....

perhaps concentrate on 50 or 100 at a time. Stop adding new ones and start learning vocabulary associated with those kanji.

Consolidate then move on... Language learning is a marathon not a sprint.

The Core 10k list that can be found in the anki shared deck suppository has fairly good coverage for most of the common words that use Heisig book 1 and 3 kanji so just pick what you need

At least this would give you a foundation to build your reading skills leaving spare time to concentrate on equally important aspects of the language like grammar, listening comprehension etc.

This is preferable to spending 6 months to a year neglecting other aspects of the language working through book 1....getting caught in the pressure of real life and giving up halfway.

My studies right now are also focused on RTK. I'm on my 1375 kanji now, I plan to get to something like 1600 on august. My long term memory seems to be very bad, I forget most kanji (except the ones that are part of other kanjis) once they get to the 2 months or more time to review .

Nothing wrong with your memory....

think of learning kanji as building a house.

Heisig is a good start..... like setting the concrete for the foundation.

but a foundation isn't a liveable house.

You have add the bricks, plaster, windows roof etc.

in other words learning kanji as they're usually seen as part of words.

This is the key to long term retention of the chinese characters. Otherwise you'll find stories and keywords blending together in your memory.

I want to get it done by the end of the year, and then I'm not sure. Maybe I will continue with Genki (recommended by a friend of mine) or use the ajatt method of sentences. But I can't figure out how to get new sentences and such, really . And it seems it takes time to input them into the SRS.

I'm not really a fan of the 10k sentence thingamajig..... seems to take too much time......but as mentioned earlier the Core wordlists that you can find on shared deck suppository and in the RTK forum has sentences already for most of the words.

or alternatively there is a deck for the sentences found in the Dictionaries of Basic/Intermediate/Advanced grammar too on the shared decks.

 

[HisshouBuraiKen]

I'm getting to the point where I can read a lot of stuff but have no idea what it says. Is there any good methods of learning where words stop in a sentence? Or does it just kind of translate as a phrase all together?

That's just vocab man, no way around it but to look it all up one chunk at a time until you learn the words.

 

[Splash Wave]

Could I trouble one of you for a translation?

 

[MMAli]

Could I trouble one of you for a translation?

The attached bookmark string may come off if pulled in the direction depicted in the top image, so please either stick the index seal over the string or put on the book cover when using the book.

 

[Splash Wave]

The attached bookmark string may come off if pulled in the direction depicted in the top image, so please either stick the index seal over the string or put on the book cover when using the book.

Much obliged!

 

[Kilrogg]

I have a very specific request.

It is said that Japanese is spoken from the mouth (as opposed to the throat, like in English or French). It seems to be one of the harder things for foreigners (including myself) to learn, even when you have an otherwise good accent. Has anyone here managed to master it? How did you do it? I like to think of myself as having a good ear for languages, but for the life of me I can't grasp that 'speaking-from-the-mouth' thing.

 

[Adent]

I have a very specific request.

It is said that Japanese is spoken from the mouth (as opposed to the throat, like in English or French). It seems to be one of the harder things for foreigners (including myself) to learn, even when you have an otherwise good accent. Has anyone here managed to master it? How did you do it? I like to think of myself as having a good ear for languages, but for the life of me I can't grasp that 'speaking-from-the-mouth' thing.

I've never heard that. I've heard that Japanese is a pronunciation poor language. It doesn't matter just copy what you hear.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I have a very specific request.

It is said that Japanese is spoken from the mouth (as opposed to the throat, like in English or French). It seems to be one of the harder things for foreigners (including myself) to learn, even when you have an otherwise good accent. Has anyone here managed to master it? How did you do it? I like to think of myself as having a good ear for languages, but for the life of me I can't grasp that 'speaking-from-the-mouth' thing.

I had never heard that before, but it totally makes sense. I just read a couple of sentences out loud and it definitely feels like I was doing a lot more throat work in English while I was doing a lot more of the sound creation in my mouth with Japanese. I imagine it's because almost all of the sound in Japanese are created by pairing a single consonant with a single vowel. I remember reading some linguist comparing the sound of Japanese to that of a machine gun due its rhythmic continuation of short syllables that don't really slur together. It's very staccato compared to something like English.

I've got pretty much native-level pronunciation (or so I'm told), but I'm really not sure how it came to be that way. I don't recall focusing on anything in particular or paying special attention to getting an accent right.

 

[Kilrogg]

I've never heard that. I've heard that Japanese is a pronunciation poor language. It doesn't matter just copy what you hear.

"Just copy what you hear" only works if you have a good ear and someone to train with. And I'm not talking about the low amount of sounds in Japanese, but the way they are pronounced.

I had never heard that before, but it totally makes sense. I just read a couple of sentences out loud and it definitely feels like I was doing a lot more throat work in English while I was doing a lot more of the sound creation in my mouth with Japanese. I imagine it's because almost all of the sound in Japanese are created by pairing a single consonant with a single vowel. I remember reading some linguist comparing the sound of Japanese to that of a machine gun due its rhythmic continuation of short syllables that don't really slur together. It's very staccato compared to something like English.

I've got pretty much native-level pronunciation (or so I'm told), but I'm really not sure how it came to be that way. I don't recall focusing on anything in particular or paying special attention to getting an accent right.

The first time I heard about that I was talking with a Japanese friend. I asked him how I was doing accent-wise and he told me I was good but that there was something in my voice, the way I uttered the sounds that gave me away as a foreigner. I tried and tried to fix that while I was talking with him, but I couldn't (and again, I pride myself on being able to hear and correct what's wrong... usually). He said that I was speaking from the throat, but that the Japanese speak from the 'front' (meaning the mouth).

Not too long ago I stumbled upon a video that basically said the same thing. I think it's this old guy on youtube with a very weird voice (not a Japanese or even Asian guy) but who's a linguist and basically said the same thing as my Japanese friend: sounds shouldn't come from the throat in Japanese but from the mouth, and that's why Japanese sounds so clear. I then asked my father about it (semi-pro chorus master, does a lot of work on voice) and the whole thing did make sense to him, so it's not just a bunch of crazy people and Japanese people who don't know better. There is really a thing.

I think the whole 'machinegun rhythm' thing you're talking about is something else. That comes from the fact that there's no stress accent (unlike English or German) and every syllable is a mora. That makes for a perfectly regular rhythm that normally doesn't happen, even in other non-stress-accent languages such as French. As far as I'm aware, that is.

Thanks for your input anyway . You should ask your Japanese friends again about your pronunciation for kicks. Ask them specifically if you sound different, if sounds come from your throat or not. I've been told my accent and pronunciation are very good as well (one of my teachers said on a couple of occasion that if she had me on a phone she would genuinely think she's talking to a native speaker, she wasn't just trying to compliment me), and yet it's only fairly recently that I've been told about throat pronunciation.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

I'm taking up chinese this year at university, would there by any synergy to learning japanese at the same time or would that just confound things?

 

[Zoe]

I'm taking up chinese this year at university, would there by any synergy to learning japanese at the same time or would that just confound things?

I think it would be confusing. Kanji can have slight differences too.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

"Just copy what you hear" only works if you have a good ear and someone to train with. And I'm not talking about the low amount of sounds in Japanese, but the way they are pronounced.



The first time I heard about that I was talking with a Japanese friend. I asked him how I was doing accent-wise and he told me I was good but that there was something in my voice, the way I uttered the sounds that gave me away as a foreigner. I tried and tried to fix that while I was talking with him, but I couldn't (and again, I pride myself on being able to hear and correct what's wrong... usually). He said that I was speaking from the throat, but that the Japanese speak from the 'front' (meaning the mouth).

Not too long ago I stumbled upon a video that basically said the same thing. I think it's this old guy on youtube with a very weird voice (not a Japanese or even Asian guy) but who's a linguist and basically said the same thing as my Japanese friend: sounds shouldn't come from the throat in Japanese but from the mouth, and that's why Japanese sounds so clear. I then asked my father about it (semi-pro chorus master, does a lot of work on voice) and the whole thing did make sense to him, so it's not just a bunch of crazy people and Japanese people who don't know better. There is really a thing.

I think the whole 'machinegun rhythm' thing you're talking about is something else. That comes from the fact that there's no stress accent (unlike English or German) and every syllable is a mora. That makes for a perfectly regular rhythm that normally doesn't happen, even in other non-stress-accent languages such as French. As far as I'm aware, that is.

Thanks for your input anyway . You should ask your Japanese friends again about your pronunciation for kicks. Ask them specifically if you sound different, if sounds come from your throat or not. I've been told my accent and pronunciation are very good as well (one of my teachers said on a couple of occasion that if she had me on a phone she would genuinely think she's talking to a native speaker, she wasn't just trying to compliment me), and yet it's only fairly recently that I've been told about throat pronunciation.

I'm actually quite interested in this topic. You wouldn't mind posting a recording of you reading something in Japanese would you? I think I know what people are talking about when they say "talk from the mouth" or "talk from the throat," but I want to identify what people think talking from the throat sounds like.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I'm taking up chinese this year at university, would there by any synergy to learning japanese at the same time or would that just confound things?

I imagine it would be confusing, but if you've got enough time on your hands, it could be a very fulfilling experience.

The only overlap would probably be in learning how to write Kanji (assuming you're learning traditional Chinese characters and not the simplified versions). There would also be a lot of overlap on meaning, but you'll run into situations where 床 means floor in Japanese and bed in Chinese, so it may be confusing.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Hm, I didn't even know they shared some symbols.
Yeah, it might be a bit tricky learning both at the same time, I'll stick to chinese until I get to intermediate level.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Hm, I didn't even know they shared some symbols.
Yeah, it might be a bit tricky learning both at the same time, I'll stick to chinese until I get to intermediate level.

Taiwan and Hong Kong (as far as I'm aware) use traditional Chinese characters, which are more or less the same as the ones used in Japan. The People's Republic of China uses the simplified characters which were created to help alleviate their illiteracy problems. A lot of simplified characters look similar to their traditional character counterparts (some being the same), but there are also a lot that are radically different.

 

[Kilrogg]

I'm actually quite interested in this topic. You wouldn't mind posting a recording of you reading something in Japanese would you? I think I know what people are talking about when they say "talk from the mouth" or "talk from the throat," but I want to identify what people think talking from the throat sounds like.

Sure, just not right now. Some time tomorrow. Should be fun .

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Sure, just not right now. Some time tomorrow. Should be fun .

Cool!

If you post the text of whatever you decide to read aloud, I'll record my version as well and post it for comparison. Maybe we can identify some different traits of mouth vs. throat speaking.

 

[MarzipaNMOS]

Wow... 150 new kanjis a day is a lot. If you are talking about kanjis to review, maybe something between 35-40 new kanji a day would get you to these review numbers.

I spend around 1 hour to learn 20 new kanji (maybe a bit more), and for reviews it is about 25 s for each kanji. I recommend http://kanji.koohii.com/ to use it as inspiration for the kanji stories, it will be faster.

haha yes, I realized this after the first 4 days. Ive already taken a year in school so I was very familiar with around 150 and that helped early on, but it came to be too much review towards the end and it did take a good 3 or 4 hours, maybe more if I also count breaks. I've since cut down to 50 a day and that seems like a good number, it takes about 2-3 hours for me to go over everything, which I split up throughout the day (I try to get some time in at work )

the deck I'm using actually links me to that site for each kanji, so I've already been using it. I don't actually own RTK...

Plus, I took a break for 3 or 4 days to learn Hangeul... so my memory got a little shot and I've been playing catchup.

yup....150 new kanji a day = about 7 hours of study a day. And this is if you streamline the process by stealing stories from the RTK forum.

if using Anki, the reviews would build up to a peak of around 1500-2000 reviews a day. (if you're doing production and recognition)

and then gradually lessen to around 300 - 500 reviews a day over a couple of months.

I wouldn't recommend people go this road unless they have a shitload of spare time. Perhaps during summer holidays when you have a month off.

Otherwise a better strategy would be to concentrate on the 1000 most common kanji and learn the associated vocabulary that comes with it. A fair portion of the jouyou kanji you won't see unless you do alot of reading so it might be useful to have a targeted approach

eg: RTK lite

http://forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?pid=84164#p84164

Hah yeah, I think once I go through everything I'd like to review for only about 1-1.5 hours per day since during the school year I'll be pretty busy.

I think I'd like to try that out though, since it seems like working in chunks would be more effective. One question about what you posted though, is RTK lite just the most common kanji, as in they analyzed their usage and hand selected them, or is it the kanji only taught in elementary-junior high? I know a few high school-level kanji already and my school's curriculum kind of introduces stuff based on context and not any sort of jlpt/grade school heirarchy so I'd like to see stuff from all levels as long as its useful...

and is there an anki deck for the vocab with those? damn do i love anki

 

[AutumnAve]

Hey Japanese language GAF, I've been trying to learn the kanas but I'm having such a tough time of it, what are some techniques and tricks some of you guys used when first starting out?

 

[Zoe]

Hey Japanese language GAF, I've been trying to learn the kanas but I'm having such a tough time of it, what are some techniques and tricks some of you guys used when first starting out?

I read shoujo manga. Sailor Moon to be exact--it was full of katakana.

I later moved on to music shows that have the lyrics play on the screen.

 

[AutumnAve]

I read shoujo manga. Sailor Moon to be exact--it was full of katakana.

I later moved on to music shows that have the lyrics play on the screen.

That's a great idea! My first tentative step was to print out kana charts and play some of my jp games. Such a slow, laborious process. Especially with my predisposition to mix up the characters in my head. I'll grab some Sailor Moon, what other beginner level manga could you recommend, Zoe?

 

[Zoe]

Well I wouldn't necessarily say it's beginner manga. It just pertained to my interests at the time :lol

If you really want beginner level in the hopes of understanding it, something like Doraemon is probably closer. If you're just looking for practice in reading out the kana, any popular shonen or shoujo will do. As long as they're aimed at early middle school or so, they'll have furigana for most words.

 

[Kilrogg]

Cool!

If you post the text of whatever you decide to read aloud, I'll record my version as well and post it for comparison. Maybe we can identify some different traits of mouth vs. throat speaking.

Sounds like fun!

[EDIT] If anyone wanna join in, just record stuff. That way we can correct each other and improve together.

 

[Kilrogg]

Cool!

If you post the text of whatever you decide to read aloud, I'll record my version as well and post it for comparison. Maybe we can identify some different traits of mouth vs. throat speaking.

For practical purposes I chose something I actually learned by heart back then, imitating the reading I used to listen to. You can get the professional reading here and the text here. Hence the similarity in tone and rhythm between my reading and the professional's. That way possible accent mistakes and whatnot won't distract you (too much) from what we're interested in.

Here you go: http://soundcloud.com/kilrogg/jpgaf

The text:
「腕組をして枕元に坐（すわ）っていると、仰向（あおむき）に寝た女が、静かな声でもう死にますと云う。女は長い髪を枕に敷いて、輪郭（りんかく）の柔（やわ）らかな瓜実（うりざね）顔（がお）をその中に横たえている。真白な頬の底に温かい血の色がほどよく差して、唇（くちびる）の色は無論赤い。」


This is one take among many others. I just can't ever be satisfied with my reading, haha.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

For practical purposes I chose something I actually learned by heart back then, imitating the reading I used to listen to. You can get the professional reading here and the text here. Hence the similarity in tone and rhythm between my reading and the professional's. That way possible accent mistakes and whatnot won't distract you (too much) from what we're interested in.

Here you go: http://soundcloud.com/kilrogg/jpgaf

The text:
「腕組をして枕元に坐（すわ）っていると、仰向（あおむき）に寝た女が、静かな声でもう死にますと云う。女は長い髪を枕に敷いて、輪郭（りんかく）の柔（やわ）らかな瓜実（うりざね）顔（がお）をその中に横たえている。真白な頬の底に温かい血の色がほどよく差して、唇（くちびる）の色は無論赤い。」


This is one take among many others. I just can't ever be satisfied with my reading, haha.

Looks like your soundcloud link is broken! I'll try a recording soon and post mine in a bit.

 

[Kilrogg]

Looks like your soundcloud link is broken! I'll try a recording soon and post mine in a bit.

What about this? http://soundcloud.com/kilrogg/jpgaf/s-jmtWF

 

[Synth_floyd]

I have a question on the use of ～てもらう　～てくれる

"Can you bring that to me?"

持ってきてくれないか？
持ってきてもらえないか？

I know what the basic difference between the two is but when asking for a favor I feel like I hear those two being used rather interchangeably.

Is there a difference in meaning? Politeness? Nuance?

 

[Kilrogg]

I have a question on the use of ～てもらう　～てくれる

"Can you bring that to me?"

持ってきてくれないか？
持ってきてもらえないか？

I know what the basic difference between the two is but when asking for a favor I feel like I hear those two being used rather interchangeably.

Is there a difference in meaning? Politeness? Nuance?

Nuance. もらう implies that you're asking for something directly, whereas くれる implies the person would be kind enough to do you a favor. Therefore, the former tends to be used in more formal contexts (i.e. you don't know the person all that well), and the latter tends to be used with friends. I don't know that　持ってきてもらえない？ would sound totally natural when talking to a friend.　くれない seems much more common in such cases, if only because it's shorter by a syllable. The longer you make your sentence, the more polite it tends to be.

 

[Gacha-pin]

What about this? http://soundcloud.com/kilrogg/jpgaf/s-jmtWF

それは喉で発声している状態なの？音数の乏しい言語を使ってる自分には全く分からないやｗ
発声の違いは分からないけど各語の強弱などはすごく自然だし、知らなければネイティブが朗読していると信じられるレベルだよ。
たぶん原著がそうなっているんだと思うけど、現代だと「あおむきに寝た女」とは読まずに、「あおむけに寝た女」と読むのが普通だよ。

 

[Kilrogg]

それは喉で発声している状態なの？音数の乏しい言語を使ってる自分には全く分からないやｗ
発声の違いは分からないけど各語の強弱などはすごく自然だし、知らなければネイティブが朗読していると信じられるレベルだよ。
たぶん原著がそうなっているんだと思うけど、現代だと「あおむきに寝た女」とは読まずに、「あおむけに寝た女」と読むのが普通だよ。

褒めてくれてありがとう。
まあ、せっかく皆さんが聞くから特に努力して読もうとしたから、普通に話してる声とちょっと違うかもしれないねｗ
現代正しい読み方が「仰向け」っていう話は確かに聞いたことあるけど、青空文庫のサイトでも、俺が使ってるBreaking into Japanese literatureという本でも「あおむき」って書いてあるので原著にわざとそういう形になってるみたいだね。

 

[Deleted member 17706]

What about this? http://soundcloud.com/kilrogg/jpgaf/s-jmtWF

Yeah, that sounded great!

edit: I finally was able to give it a good listen. Honestly, it sounded damn close to a native's pronunciation to me. I probably wouldn't have thought it was by a non-native unless I knew beforehand. The only part that really stuck out to me was the "むき" in "仰向き". Is your native tongue French, by chance?

I got busy last night and didn't have a chance to record mine, but I'll definitely upload it tonight.

 

[Kilrogg]

Yeah, that sounded great!

edit: I finally was able to give it a good listen. Honestly, it sounded damn close to a native's pronunciation to me. I probably wouldn't have thought it was by a non-native unless I knew beforehand. The only part that really stuck out to me was the "むき" in "仰向き". Is your native tongue French, by chance?

I got busy last night and didn't have a chance to record mine, but I'll definitely upload it tonight.

I am French indeed. What gave it away? Descending tone I suppose? (again, 'aomuki' seems to be how it's actually meant to be read in the text)

[EDIT] Upon listening to it again, I get where you're coming from. The "ki" in "aomuki" sounds damn weird. my "i" sounds don't sound so horrible usually, don't know what happened.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I am French indeed. What gave it away? Descending tone I suppose? (again, 'aomuki' seems to be how it's actually meant to be read in the text)

[EDIT] Upon listening to it again, I get where you're coming from. The "ki" in "aomuki" sounds damn weird. my "i" sounds don't sound so horrible usually, don't know what happened.

I don't know exactly what gave me that impression. I think it was the "む" sound. Maybe it's because I work with a French guy who pronounces it in a similar way.

Honestly, though, I probably wouldn't have thought anything of it if I didn't going in with the mindset that a non-native Japanese speaker did the reading.

 

[Kilrogg]

I don't know exactly what gave me that impression. I think it was the "む" sound. Maybe it's because I work with a French guy who pronounces it in a similar way.

Honestly, though, I probably wouldn't have thought anything of it if I didn't going in with the mindset that a non-native Japanese speaker did the reading.

Yeah, I know I will be overly careful too when you upload your sample because I know you're a foreigner and you're supposed to have a pretty good accent. It's weird that you find the 'mu' off when the 'ki' is what gives it away for me. It's not like my u's are weird in any other syllables, are they?

Enough talk about me, upload yours please .

 

[Alucrid]

Man, all the Japanese classes got filled up. It's depressing that all the Japanese I classes were filled, II was half filled, III had a few people in it, beyond that there was like 1 or 0 enrolled.

 

[Cheesemeister]

Man, all the Japanese classes got filled up. It's depressing that all the Japanese I classes were filled, II was half filled, III had a few people in it, beyond that there was like 1 or 0 enrolled.

Japanese classes suffer from high attrition rates. You have to be motivated.

 

[Alucrid]

Japanese classes suffer from high attrition rates. You have to be motivated.

Yeah, I just wonder how many of the people who got in will just give up after a year despite them preventing me from starting now. Oh well, I guess I'll just have to wait 6 months before starting...I'll have a head start on the kanji by then at least.

 

[Cheesemeister]

Yeah, I just wonder how many of the people who got in will just give up after a year despite them preventing me from starting now. Oh well, I guess I'll just have to wait 6 months before starting...I'll have a head start on the kanji by then at least.

Yeah, about half of the students will drop out after each semester.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Yeah, I know I will be overly careful too when you upload your sample because I know you're a foreigner and you're supposed to have a pretty good accent. It's weird that you find the 'mu' off when the 'ki' is what gives it away for me. It's not like my u's are weird in any other syllables, are they?

Enough talk about me, upload yours please .

Sorry for the delay! Got really busy. Unfortunately, it's late and other people are sleeping, so I had to talk in a quieter voice and couldn't read it like that professional reader you linked.

Anyway, here is my reading. Damn it sounds weird to hear my own voice like this:

http://soundcloud.com/zefah/japanese-reading-gaf

 

[Kilrogg]

Sorry for the delay! Got really busy. Unfortunately, it's late and other people are sleeping, so I had to talk in a quieter voice and couldn't read it like that professional reader you linked.

Anyway, here is my reading. Damn it sounds weird to hear my own voice like this:

http://soundcloud.com/zefah/japanese-reading-gaf

No worries, and thanks for posting .

I... do think you're talking from your throat, ha. Regardless of your accent and whatnot, there's something in your voice that makes me go "yep, not Japanese". I wish I could be more specific though. I guess it sounds... deeper (?) than a Japanese voice. Maybe Gacha-pin will chime in and tell us what he thinks.

Other than that, pretty good! Strangely enough, you've got this accent quirk that's (supposedly) typical to French speakers. That is to say, your tone rises, and then suddenly falls when you reach a particle. That's how the French speak French, and it's one of the hardest things to get rid of for us when learning Japanese (I had to have my teacher point it out to me before I realized). On top of that, you emphasize syllables at the beginning of words in some places, so in the end your accent goes 'fall-rise-fall', if that makes sense. For instance, when you say 「仰向きに寝た女が」, you emphasize ね. When you say その中に and 頬の底に, your voice falls after か and こ, right before the particle. Then again, that could just be a case of 1) not having practised as much as I do, 2) struggling with pitch accent the way I do. I hate pitch accent. It only works for me when I've practised a lot and actually looked up the 'regular' pitch accents for the words in that NHK pronounciation dictionary.

Are you... Dutch, perchance? I know a Dutch guy who speaks like you. Your accent is better than his though.

At any rate I suggest you either do another take when there's nobody around, or read something from a text you're more comfortable with. And sorry for commenting so much. Your accent is actually quite good (much better than the majority of Japanese learners I know), but I nitpick a lot, starting with myself.

And again, if anyone wants to give it a go, go ahead, it would be a nice change of pace for the thread. Should be fun.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

No worries, and thanks for posting .

I... do think you're talking from your throat, ha. Regardless of your accent and whatnot, there's something in your voice that makes me go "yep, not Japanese". I wish I could be more specific though. I guess it sounds... deeper (?) than a Japanese voice. Maybe Gacha-pin will chime in and tell us what he thinks.

Other than that, pretty good! Strangely enough, you've got this accent quirk that's (supposedly) typical to French speakers. That is to say, your tone rises, and then suddenly falls when you reach a particle. That's how the French speak French, and it's one of the hardest things to get rid of for us when learning Japanese (I had to have my teacher point it out to me before I realized). On top of that, you emphasize syllables at the beginning of words in some places, so in the end your accent goes 'fall-rise-fall', if that makes sense. For instance, when you say 「仰向きに寝た女が」, you emphasize ね. When you say その中に and 頬の底に, your voice falls after か and こ, right before the particle. Then again, that could just be a case of 1) not having practised as much as I do, 2) struggling with pitch accent the way I do. I hate pitch accent. It only works for me when I've practised a lot and actually looked up the 'regular' pitch accents for the words in that NHK pronounciation dictionary.

Are you... Dutch, perchance? I know a Dutch guy who speaks like you. Your accent is better than his though.

At any rate I suggest you either do another take when there's nobody around, or read something from a text you're more comfortable with. And sorry for commenting so much. Your accent is actually quite good (much better than the majority of Japanese learners I know), but I nitpick a lot, starting with myself.

And again, if anyone wants to give it a go, go ahead, it would be a nice change of pace for the thread. Should be fun.

Thanks for the feedback and critique! I'm from the west coast of North America (Seattle), actually. My native language is English.

I'll admit I'm not used to doing readings and recordings like this at all. First time I've ever really recorded and listened back to my voice. Because of that, it probably sounds a bit more unnatural than my normal speech. Some of the weird accent quirks you identified may have come from my first learning Japanese in Kansai, speaking with people native to that region. Later, when I lived in Tokyo, I tried to conform to the 標準語 style, but I'm often told that my accent/intonation is more Kansai-sounding on certain words. I could totally hear it popping up again with "おんな" in my reading.

Did you take speech classes at all? Also, what NHK pronunciation dictionary are you referring to? That might be interesting to look at (although I don't know if I necessarily want to sound like a news caster).

Anyway, it might be fun to do another take with some completely different material. Any suggestions? Something more casual/colloquial (like text from a manga, for example) might be cool.