• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

The Big Ass Superior Thread of Learning Japanese

Status
Not open for further replies.

Mandoric

Banned
リングに上がった男の覚悟に
泥塗る気か!


I need help with the bold part specifically

Context: Two guys (boxers) are about to fight and a girl wants to stop them. Someone prevents her, saying the above statement.

"Drag through the mud" is also an English idiom, though it would sound really awkward here.
I'm assuming the speaker is male and pretty macho? How about something like "What the hell, these guys are ready to throw down and you just want them to bitch out?" to keep up the same level of implied misogyny that 男の覚悟に~ gives?
 

RevenantKioku

PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS PEINS oh god i am drowning in them
Heisig is unrewarding? Huh. Okay. Guess all those benefits are just figments of my imagination!

I still have trouble believing people would say junk like that with such an authoritive tone but whatever. To each their own.
 

PKrockin

Member
Yeah, I wouldn't say RTK is unrewarding. When I learned Kanji meanings, readings, and compounds at once through rote memorization, they would slip my mind all the time if I didn't constantly review, I would keep confusing one Kanji with another, or mess up trying to write them. That was really discouraging. Now I'm only learning clues to a Kanji's meaning and how to write them, but I'm making solid progress that won't be lost easily.
 
Heisig is unrewarding? Huh. Okay. Guess all those benefits are just figments of my imagination!

I still have trouble believing people would say junk like that with such an authoritive tone but whatever. To each their own.

In the short term I guess I can see why people feel that way, especially if they've never studied kanji before when they jump in. I can see its usefulness only after having studied the conventional way for five years. Without any prior kanji study, learning how to write 2,000+ characters but not being able to read even simple compounds must be incredibly frustrating. In the long term it certainly is rewarding.

Not to be rude, but your attitude has been a real turn off from Heisig. It wasn't until someone else explained to me the benefits in a way that wasn't "you're stupid, this is the only way!" that I realised it might be worthwhile. I understand it must be frustrating to see so many people disagree with your method of study, but if you explain it in a positive way you'll get a lot of people on board I'm sure.
 
"Drag through the mud" is also an English idiom, though it would sound really awkward here.
I'm assuming the speaker is male and pretty macho? How about something like "What the hell, these guys are ready to throw down and you just want them to bitch out?" to keep up the same level of implied misogyny that 男の覚悟に~ gives?

Thanks for this.
 

Grokbu

Member
If the speaker used これ then you should use それ in reply.

これ is close to the speaker, but not necessarily close to the listener.
それ is close to the listener, but not necessarily close to the speaker.
あれ is close to neither the speaker nor the listener.
Alright, thanks.

So it's basically それ because I used これ, which should mean that the image is close to me, as I presented it?
 
I need some new games to play in japanese, anyone got any suggestions? Something with a good variety of vocabulary and that doesn't skimp on the kanji. The Wii Big 3 (Xeno, TLS and Pandora) are good examples of what I'm looking for.

Also registration for this year's JLPT is supposed to open today! I'm doing N1 in Atlanta, if anyone else is going we should do a GAF meetup the night before! Get in some karaoke as a last-minute practice/stress reliever :D

I still don't understand why people are discussing kanji and not bringing up

www.kanjidamage.com

I'm working on the new 196 jouyou kanji they added in 2010 and that site is invaluable in coming up with hilarious, easy to remember mnemonics names for the radicals/components. A lot of the stuff he came up with are way better than the things I came up with years ago (e.g. making the connection that 貝 as a radical represents "money" and not "shellfish").
 

KtSlime

Member
Heisig is unrewarding? Huh. Okay. Guess all those benefits are just figments of my imagination!

I still have trouble believing people would say junk like that with such an authoritive tone but whatever. To each their own.

I really mean in a productive, okay I've learned 500 characters, what can I do with the language kind of way. If you want to learn all the characters, then relearn all the characters with their on, then relearn them yet again with their kun, Heisig is totally the way to go.

I think there are some wonderful things I learned with my brief foray into Heisig, and I totally think people should have a look at his books, there really is a wealth of knowledge in there.

I personally found being able to use the language as I learned it a reinforcing incentive to learning the language, but you are right, I probably should have prefaced my statement, or at least said "unrewarding in the short term".

It was not my goal to denigrate any of your hard work. Learning 3000+ characters is a difficult task, and people should learn them however best they feel comfortable.

O-eye-exit-degrees-u honorable-seat-imasu. ;)
 

Nerdy Fergy

Neo Member
I think I am missing something basic about Kanji readings. I think this is something other people can help me understand and once I get it, then I can hopefully move on from this block I have. I do not understand why there are so many readings or which readings I need to know. Let's take 生 as an example.

The On'yomi are: ショウ, セイ
The Kun'yomi are: な.る, う.まれ, は.やす, い.かす, な.す, うまれ, き, い.ける, む.す, う.む, なま, -う, お.う, なま-, う.まれる, い.きる, は.える

I know that, typically (warning - oversimplification imminent), the On are used for a compound, if there are two kanji next to each other with no kana inbetween. The Kun are used if it is a single kanji. Gah, I don't even know what I am trying to ask. I am just confused as to when to apply which readings. I am just confused about readings in general I guess.

I can go through RTK1 just fine, but I cannot take it to the next step. So, asking a different way, after RTK1, what do I do?
 

Adent

Can't manage for sh!t
I think I am missing something basic about Kanji readings. I think this is something other people can help me understand and once I get it, then I can hopefully move on from this block I have. I do not understand why there are so many readings or which readings I need to know. Let's take 生 as an example.

The On'yomi are: ショウ, セイ
The Kun'yomi are: な.る, う.まれ, は.やす, い.かす, な.す, うまれ, き, い.ける, む.す, う.む, なま, -う, お.う, なま-, う.まれる, い.きる, は.える

I know that, typically (warning - oversimplification imminent), the On are used for a compound, if there are two kanji next to each other with no kana inbetween. The Kun are used if it is a single kanji. Gah, I don't even know what I am trying to ask. I am just confused as to when to apply which readings. I am just confused about readings in general I guess.

I can go through RTK1 just fine, but I cannot take it to the next step. So, asking a different way, after RTK1, what do I do?

And what you just said or noticed for yourself is the REASON RTK 1 doesn't have you learn the readings. It's hard enough learning how to write them and distinguish them from one another. I can't tell you what to do. If people want make things difficult for themselves because they can't deal with delayed gratification that's what they are going to do. I'm 500 kanji into RTK 1 and it will probably take me a good while to finish but I will finish it. Once I finish I'm going to start doing the sentence method. Also just generally reading a lot. That's how I'll study the readings of kanji. I follow the www.AJATT.com method. Also japaneselevelup.com

Remembering the Kanji is the best way to learn Kanji. It's just the delayed Gratification that makes it difficult for people to grasp why it's good.
 

Nerdy Fergy

Neo Member
Setting aside RTK1 or instant gratification, if I finished RTK1 today, then I would not know what to do next. I do not think that completing RTK1 will mean that I can learn the readings. I guess I am looking for an explination of how to read Japanese, if that makes sense. How do I know what to do with kanji or japanese sentences.
 

KtSlime

Member
I think I am missing something basic about Kanji readings. I think this is something other people can help me understand and once I get it, then I can hopefully move on from this block I have. I do not understand why there are so many readings or which readings I need to know. Let's take 生 as an example.

The On'yomi are: ショウ, セイ
The Kun'yomi are: な.る, う.まれ, は.やす, い.かす, な.す, うまれ, き, い.ける, む.す, う.む, なま, -う, お.う, なま-, う.まれる, い.きる, は.える

I know that, typically (warning - oversimplification imminent), the On are used for a compound, if there are two kanji next to each other with no kana inbetween. The Kun are used if it is a single kanji. Gah, I don't even know what I am trying to ask. I am just confused as to when to apply which readings. I am just confused about readings in general I guess.

I can go through RTK1 just fine, but I cannot take it to the next step. So, asking a different way, after RTK1, what do I do?

生 is the exception, not the rule. Most only have one or two readings. But I would like to know what you are trying to ask. The reason 生 has so many readings, is because it has a lot of different meanings. 音 = sound, 訓 = meaning. For each distinct meaning derived from the idea of "life" there is a kun reading. 

Your list is a bit misleading as well: なる and なす should be paired, う.まれ, うまれ, are two different ways of writing a 名詞 derived from うまれる which is nothing more than the 自動詞 of うむ, readings that have a - are morphemes that can be bound (attached to another word/morpheme), はやす and はえる are paired and means the same as おう which is from a different dialect, etc. Some of the readings are also very rarely used, you just need to be able to recognize them, and know how to look them up if needed.

This is why understanding Japanese grammar is tantamount to using the language, and why I think the over emphasis on the learning of a bunch of stories for remembering how to write a character is burdensome to the people trying to learn the language. Call being able to read without knowing 100% of the characters instant gratification if you want, but I will call it practical.
 
Is there a difference between こそ and とは?

In a sentence like ”あなたとはもう絶対に組まない”、would it be different from a sentence like this,
"あなたこそもう絶対に組まない”?


Thank you.
 

KtSlime

Member
Is there a difference between こそ and とは?

In a sentence like ”あなたとはもう絶対に組まない”、would it be different from a sentence like this,
"あなたこそもう絶対に組まない”?


Thank you.

こそ places emphasis on the proceeding word, とは indicates you are defining it, but there are times when their differences would be negligible.
 

Nerdy Fergy

Neo Member
生 is the exception, not the rule. Most only have one or two readings. But I would like to know what you are trying to ask. The reason 生 has so many readings, is because it has a lot of different meanings. 音 = sound, 訓 = meaning. For each distinct meaning derived from the idea of "life" there is a kun reading. 

Your list is a bit misleading as well: なる and なす should be paired, う.まれ, うまれ, are two different ways of writing a 名詞 derived from うまれる which is nothing more than the 自動詞 of うむ, readings that have a - are morphemes that can be bound (attached to another word/morpheme), はやす and はえる are paired and means the same as おう which is from a different dialect, etc. Some of the readings are also very rarely used, you just need to be able to recognize them, and know how to look them up if needed.

This is why understanding Japanese grammar is tantamount to using the language, and why I think the over emphasis on the learning of a bunch of stories for remembering how to write a character is burdensome to the people trying to learn the language. Call being able to read without knowing 100% of the characters instant gratification if you want, but I will call it practical.

I am sorry that I am having such a hard time explaining what I am trying to ask. I really appreciate everyone's help so far. I think I am just over thinking readings. I am having problems conceptually understanding reading Japanese.
Here is how I am thinking of proceeding.
Front of flash card has the Kanji and stroke order. I should write down the Kanji, the on'yomi, the kun'yomi, and recognize the meaning in English, all of which are on the back.
Is this a good way to spend my time? It seems like a combination of RTK1 and 2.

Another way I could ask this is, if I finish RTK1, then what should I do?
 

Gradivus

Member
I might try and go sign up for the level 5 test for this Dec. Any good sites for helping with the JLPT tests besides that KanjiDamage (this is very helpful :p).

I've pretty much self-taught myself (thankfully I've got of Japanese friends in my area to correct my grammar, errors and such), so hopefully I can at least pass level 5.
 

midonnay

Member
Another way I could ask this is, if I finish RTK1, then what should I do?

alot of people don't bother with RTK2.... although it can be useful in teaching you about chinese phonetical components that are common in many kanji.

ie: if some characters share a certain component they may share a reading too.

A common route for many people is Kanji Odyssey 2001, Kanji in Context books or the Core word lists. (KO2001 and core has audio too for the sentences if you look around which may be useful for beginners)

But your grammar skills should be at a reasonable level before you tackle them if you want to understand the sentences.

BTW if you have queries you should search in the Reviewing the Kanji forum...

http://forum.koohii.com/index.php

Alot of things you've been asking have come up many many times already.
 
I think trying to memorize all the readings while learning the kanji is a horrible idea. I tried it that way starting out, it just doesn't work.

Looking at my Japanese class, we'd have vocabulary words connected by a theme each chapter, and we'd learn new kanji and whatever readings were applicable to the words at the time. If the kanji had a different reading in a vocabulary word later on, it would be reintroduced with a new reading in that context.

For me personally, I have to learn new readings as vocabulary, with maybe 2 kanji together. Otherwise I can't pull the reading I want of a character out of my head quickly enough to match it to whatever instance it's being used in. Memorizing them all at once is really a detriment.

I finally realized how amazing Anki is, and I think the vocabulary flash cards I'm using are really going to help my reading comprehension, but my basic kanji knowledge is only a few hundred, so I picked up RTK to try to make up for that. Obviously, I intend to learn all the readings eventually, but i need some more familiarity with the characters.

It's just pointless to memorize by rote every reading if you're only going to see them one time in very specific context. And you'll have to learn special exceptions like 今朝 anyway.

Sorry for rambling, I'm sleep-deprived and my ability to express coherent thoughts has kind of faded.
 

Jake.

Member
re: attrition rates, everyone is right. in 1st year at uni i would have been in the top 5% of a class of around 150, by 2nd year i failed and then decided to call it a day and focus on my major (psychology). my lecturer said in 3rd year there are usually only 15 or so people enrolled, and in honours (4th year) there are 5ish. i just wasn't dedicated enough...it really is alot of hard work. kanji kicked my ass and made me lose interest entirely (in 2nd year we had to learn about 55 a week).
 

PKrockin

Member
re: attrition rates, everyone is right. in 1st year at uni i would have been in the top 5% of a class of around 150, by 2nd year i failed and then decided to call it a day and focus on my major (psychology). my lecturer said in 3rd year there are usually only 15 or so people enrolled, and in honours (4th year) there are 5ish. i just wasn't dedicated enough...it really is alot of hard work. kanji kicked my ass and made me lose interest entirely (in 2nd year we had to learn about 55 a week).

Yep. That's what I've heard too.

From my experience, at the beginner level Japanese classes are jam-packed, mostly full of anime fans. In second year they really ratchet up the Kanji and I think that's what weeds out 80% of them. You have to stay extremely consistent to survive.
 
”俺がここに来た理由とも 被らないでもないから”

I need help with this sentence.
Char A comes out of nowhere and helps a woman.
The woman is grateful for his help. He plans to accompany her on her next errand/mission.
She seems like she's going to pay him money, and says something like, "I don't think this will be enough".

He replies, "Don't worry" and then follows with the sentence above.

I don't understand the usage of 被る in this phrase.
I would like a direct translation please.

Thank you.
 

louis89

Member
A direct translation would be something like

It doesn't not overlap with the reason I came here.

被る here is like, "overlap". "clash" can also be used in some contexts (dates clashing, etc.). So what he's saying is something like "it's okay, you don't need to pay me, this is actually kind of why I came here" (at least, that's the best I can do without seeing it myself and knowing what's actually happening). He's saying that him helping her out doesn't not (i.e., does) 被る (overlap) with why he came to that place.
 
Thank you for the explanation.

I wanted to start a journal in Japanese.
I was wondering if there is a site where people, blog or journal in Japanese.

At first I was thinking of making it private, but maybe down the line I might make it public or start another public account.

I haven't really though everything through, but was just curious if there is such a site that is free.

Thanks.
 

Valygar

Member
Regarding Heisig...

I think learning to write each Kanji and a meaning is hard enough, if you try the learnings at the same time it would be almost impossible. I would only recommend it if you already know a lot of spoken japanese.

I'm finishing RTK1, and I'm sure I won't do RTK2. I will follow the sentence method, and I think readings will come naturally. If I know Japan is 日本 and it is pronounced にほん , I already know the onyomi for each of the kanji. If I see those kanji in other compounds, I can figure out how it is pronounced, or maybe I can infer what are the kanjis that form a compound knowing its pronunciation + meaning.

It is like a triple system, if you know two of the things you can probably guess the last one.
 

Sage00

Once And Future Member
Thank you for the explanation.

I wanted to start a journal in Japanese.
I was wondering if there is a site where people, blog or journal in Japanese.

At first I was thinking of making it private, but maybe down the line I might make it public or start another public account.

I haven't really though everything through, but was just curious if there is such a site that is free.

Thanks.
Have you tried http://lang-8.com/ ? You blog in the language you are learning and a native speaker corrects your mistakes. You do the same to those learning your native language.
 
Even though I'm at the N4 level, I signed up for the N3 JLPT this December. Figured that it would be a decent motivator for me to stay on track with my Japanese learning. (Hopefully it won't kill me.) I'm doing it for fun at this point, anyway, money be damned.

I heard about lang-8 on some podcast, so I should probably check that out. I really need to figure out a good method/structured plan for learning kanji, new vocab, grammar, etc.
Self-learning is hard work.
 
What is a 攻略組 in MMO?

I'm watching Sword Art Online (anime) and it takes place in an mmorpg.
Here is the sentence,

"こいつ ソロで前線に挑んでるビーターの攻略組だ

Also what is a ビーター in video games? Is that a boss' name or just someone who beat a boss?
 

Mandoric

Banned
What is a 攻略組 in MMO?

I'm watching Sword Art Online (anime) and it takes place in an mmorpg.
Here is the sentence,

"こいつ ソロで前線に挑んでるビーターの攻略組だ

Also what is a ビーター in video games? Is that a boss' name or just someone who beat a boss?

Both of those are words that show made up or at least popularized out of nowhere.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
What is a 攻略組 in MMO?

I'm watching Sword Art Online (anime) and it takes place in an mmorpg.
Here is the sentence,

"こいつ ソロで前線に挑んでるビーターの攻略組だ

Also what is a ビーター in video games? Is that a boss' name or just someone who beat a boss?

ビーター is referring to beta, I imagine. As in a beta test for an MMORPG.

So, something like, "This guy/girl, who is soloing on the front lines, played in the beta test!"

I imagine it's implying that since the person played in beta, they already know how to play and how to defeat the encounters, which is giving him or her an advantage in the game and enabling him or her to solo so well.

More context would certainly help.
 

Mandoric

Banned
ビーター is referring to beta, I imagine. As in a beta test for an MMORPG.

So, something like, "This guy/girl, who is soloing on the front lines, played in the beta test!"

I imagine it's implying that since the person played in beta, they already know how to play and how to defeat the encounters, which is giving him or her an advantage in the game and enabling him or her to solo so well.

More context would certainly help.

Naw, I checked and it's actual SAO terminology.
ビーター
SAO内で使われていたベータテスト出身のプレイヤーを貶めて言う蔑称。"ベータのチーター"を縮めた造語であり、ベータテストで培った経験と知識を独占する汚いプレイヤーのみを指す。

and

SAOではアインクラッドの解放を目指す通称「攻略組」に属するプレイヤー。
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Naw, I checked and it's actual SAO terminology.
ビーター
SAO内で使われていたベータテスト出身のプレイヤーを貶めて言う蔑称。"ベータのチーター"を縮めた造語であり、ベータテストで培った経験と知識を独占する汚いプレイヤーのみを指す。

and

SAOではアインクラッドの解放を目指す通称「攻略組」に属するプレイヤー。

Makes sense!
 

Mandoric

Banned

Durr. Need to pay more attention, I completely misread you.

"Beater" honestly works better as a portmanteau in English than in Japanese, so I'd just keep that.

Gut instinct says "Raider" for 攻略組, especially since they're trying to "beat the game" while other players take it more casually, right?
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Durr. Need to pay more attention, I completely misread you.

"Beater" honestly works better as a portmanteau in English than in Japanese, so I'd just keep that.

Gut instinct says "Raider" for 攻略組, especially since they're trying to "beat the game" while other players take it more casually, right?

Possibly, but you can't have a solo "raid"!

Haven't seen the show, so I can't comment on how its universe works, though.
 
”言っとくが俺はソロだ”

I don't understand the what the term means 言っとく (mainly the usage of とく with 言)

Here is more dialog for context:

A: グリーンのあたしを傷つければ あんたがオレンジに....
B:言っとくが俺はソロだ.
一日二日オレンジになるくらいどうってことないぞ.

Turning orange in the game occurs when a player kills another player.

Same anime. =)

Thanks for all of your help.
 

Mandoric

Banned
”言っとくが俺はソロだ”

I don't understand the what the term means 言っとく (mainly the usage of とく with 言)

Here is more dialog for context:

A: グリーンのあたしを傷つければ あんたがオレンジに....
B:言っとくが俺はソロだ.
一日二日オレンジになるくらいどうってことないぞ.

Turning orange in the game occurs when a player kills another player.

Same anime. =)

Thanks for all of your help.

it's contracted 言っておく. "Listen, kid, I play solo. I don't give a damn if I go red for a day or two." (orange->red because Lineage II used red and it's the only MMO English-speakers will know that referred to PK color-coding like that)
 

KtSlime

Member
Typically とく is a merging of て+おく, so 言っておく. So, "I'm saying in advance", or "Just so you know"...
 
Thanks a lot, I understand now.

One more question regarding the second sentence I put up as reference for context.

どうってことがないぞ

Here the どう = 同 as in the same?

I found several meanings for どう and that was the most appropriate one I could find, making the above part mean, "it's not the same"
 

Mandoric

Banned
Thanks a lot, I understand now.

One more question regarding the second sentence I put up as reference for context.

どうってことがないぞ

Here the どう = 同 as in the same?

I found several meanings for どう and that was the most appropriate one I could find, making the above part mean, "it's not the same"

it derives from どう言う (i think?), but it's best to just take it as a whole meaning "no big deal".
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
If you were to write どう in Kanji (you usually wouldn't) it would be 如何.
 
Thanks guys, I actually found the whole expression in a dictionary:

どうってことはない

(expression) : nothing special;  no big deal;  doesn't matter


Now I understand what you meant by an expressionー I was too focused on the small part、 どうって。
 
Hey JPN gaf, I am writing a skit for class again and I have a quick simple question.

If i want to ask , Do you want something to eat or drink.

Which is better

飲み物か食べ物がほしいですか
(is hoshii appropriate here? )

or

食べたいですか。飲みたいですか

or

何を食べたいですか?何を飲みたいですか?

I am sure there is probably a better way to ask such a simple question?
 
”私は 家族すら犠牲にして
理想を追ってきたというのに”

Can someone translate this sentence please?
I may have a couple of questions after the translation.
 

Mandoric

Banned
”私は 家族すら犠牲にして
理想を追ってきたというのに”

Can someone translate this sentence please?
I may have a couple of questions after the translation.

I'd like more context, because I like to put -というのに on adjacent sentences, but.
"But I've sacrificed even my family in pursuit of my ideals!"

Now I'm curious where it's from, google didn't turn up anything recent.
 
I'd like more context, because I like to put -というのに on adjacent sentences, but.
"But I've sacrificed even my family in pursuit of my ideals!"

Now I'm curious where it's from, google didn't turn up anything recent.


私は桜井先生の教えを
実践してきたにすぎません。→

あなたの言う
絶対的管理教育を。→


その桜井先生が理事長を務める
学苑から再建要請なんて。


どういうことですか?

私は 家族すら犠牲にして
理想を追ってきたというのに。

Here is more context.

I was having trouble with すら。 I guess it seems in this sentence it's putting emphasis on family (even my family).

The other thing is にして, which I assume is the particle に with する。
I thought I remember にする having a special meaning, but I guess I might be mistaking it for something similar.
I know that にして also means: although, just because, even...
But I don't think I have seen it used in that context.

追ってきた。
I'm having trouble with the きた part although I have read the lesson on きた。
I will read the lesson again, and if anything clicks.

If it's not too much trouble, can you also translate this part:
"私は桜井先生の教えを
実践してきたにすぎません"

I'm having trouble breaking apart きたにすぎません

BTW: This is from the GTO drama series.

THanks.
 

Mandoric

Banned
I know that にして also means: although, just because, even...
But I don't think I have seen it used in that context.

にして itself is just "to make (subject) into (object)". Usually for TV and stuff, it's used in really chuu2 ways like "I made my family into a sacrifice", "I'll turn you into scrap", and so on, but it's also the proper usage for phrases like "お嫁にする"/"make you my wife".

for something like にしても, it's more "even if we consider the previous as true".

追ってきた。
I find it helpful to think of it as a cognate with "I've come all this way doing (verb)" in contexts like that.

If it's not too much trouble, can you also translate this part:
"私は桜井先生の教えを
実践してきたにすぎません"

I'm having trouble breaking apart きたにすぎません

It's that きた again.
"But, Mr. Sakurai. I've only been doing exactly what you taught me."
私は me {subject}
桜井先生の教えを Mr. Sakurai's teachings {object}
実践して realize a plan/lesson/ideal {verb}
きた over a continuous period of time which has already passed {verb conjugation}
にすぎません (subject) does not exceed/go beyond (clause containing object)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom