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Cheesemeister · Jan 27, 2011

Sai-kun said:
I'm taking Japanese 102, and it is significantly harder this quarter.

Why is grammar so difficult? It's hard to remember all these particles.

Just wait 'til you get to counters. Apparently, the counter for pairs of chopsticks is 膳（ぜん）. Birds? 羽（わ）. Rabbits? Also 羽.

cntr · Jan 27, 2011

Cheesemeister said:
Birds? 羽（わ）. Rabbits? Also 羽.

Probably apocryphal, but I've heard that the reasoning for this was that Buddhist monks were prohibited from eating any kind of meat except for bird meat, but they liked rabbit so much, they classified it as a type of bird.

Sai-kun · Jan 27, 2011

Cheesemeister said:
Just wait 'til you get to counters. Apparently, the counter for pairs of chopsticks is 膳（ぜん）. Birds? 羽（わ）. Rabbits? Also 羽.

Oh yeah, I've known a little bit about counters, but we haven't gotten to that yet.

We're learning grammar and Kanji right now. Kanji am hard. I wish I had a friend to practice with outside of class.

louis89 · Jan 27, 2011

What does this (bolded) sentence mean?

Code:

Son:  &#20474;&#12364;&#35211;&#12383;&#22818;&#12392;&#12288;&#12414;&#12427;&#12391;&#21516;&#12376;&#20869;&#23481;&#12364;&#12381;&#12398;&#26412;&#12395;&#20986;&#12390;&#26469;&#12383;&#12398;&#65281;
Mom: &#12408;&#12359;&#65374;
         &#12375;&#12363;&#12418;&#20027;&#20154;&#20844;&#12398;&#21517;&#21069;&#12364;&#21516;&#12376;&#65311;
Son:  &#21517;&#21069;&#12384;&#12369;&#12376;&#12419;&#12394;&#12356;&#12424;&#12288;&#24180;&#12418;&#65281;
Daughter:  &#12383;&#12384;&#12398;&#20598;&#28982;&#12391;&#12375;&#12423;&#65311;
Son:  &#12381;&#12435;&#12394;&#20598;&#28982;&#12364;&#12354;&#12427;&#12363;&#12424;&#65311;
Mom:  &#12354;&#12427;&#12435;&#12376;&#12419;&#12394;&#12356;&#65311;
         [B]&#40665;&#12387;&#12390;&#32862;&#12356;&#12390;&#12428;&#12400;&#35519;&#23376;&#12395;&#20055;&#12387;&#12390;&#12288;&#12400;&#12363;&#12400;&#12363;&#12375;&#12356;&#12290;[/B]
         &#26395;&#26376;&#12394;&#12435;&#12390;&#21517;&#23383;&#12399;&#12393;&#12371;&#12395;&#12384;&#12387;&#12390;&#12354;&#12427;&#12435;&#12384;&#12363;&#12425;
         &#20598;&#28982;&#12395;&#27770;&#12414;&#12387;&#12390;&#12427;&#12376;&#12419;&#12394;&#12356;&#12290;
Son:  &#12391;&#12418;&#22818;&#12391;&#12290;

Deleted member 17706 · Jan 27, 2011

louis89 said:

What does this (bolded) sentence mean?

Code:

Son:  &#20474;&#12364;&#35211;&#12383;&#22818;&#12392;&#12288;&#12414;&#12427;&#12391;&#21516;&#12376;&#20869;&#23481;&#12364;&#12381;&#12398;&#26412;&#12395;&#20986;&#12390;&#26469;&#12383;&#12398;&#65281;
Mom: &#12408;&#12359;&#65374;
         &#12375;&#12363;&#12418;&#20027;&#20154;&#20844;&#12398;&#21517;&#21069;&#12364;&#21516;&#12376;&#65311;
Son:  &#21517;&#21069;&#12384;&#12369;&#12376;&#12419;&#12394;&#12356;&#12424;&#12288;&#24180;&#12418;&#65281;
Daughter:  &#12383;&#12384;&#12398;&#20598;&#28982;&#12391;&#12375;&#12423;&#65311;
Son:  &#12381;&#12435;&#12394;&#20598;&#28982;&#12364;&#12354;&#12427;&#12363;&#12424;&#65311;
Mom:  &#12354;&#12427;&#12435;&#12376;&#12419;&#12394;&#12356;&#65311;
         [B]&#40665;&#12387;&#12390;&#32862;&#12356;&#12390;&#12428;&#12400;&#35519;&#23376;&#12395;&#20055;&#12387;&#12390;&#12288;&#12400;&#12363;&#12400;&#12363;&#12375;&#12356;&#12290;[/B]
         &#26395;&#26376;&#12394;&#12435;&#12390;&#21517;&#23383;&#12399;&#12393;&#12371;&#12395;&#12384;&#12387;&#12390;&#12354;&#12427;&#12435;&#12384;&#12363;&#12425;
         &#20598;&#28982;&#12395;&#27770;&#12414;&#12387;&#12390;&#12427;&#12376;&#12419;&#12394;&#12356;&#12290;
Son:  &#12391;&#12418;&#22818;&#12391;&#12290;

黙って聞いていれば is the Mom, 調子に乗って is the Son.

Masked Man · Jan 27, 2011

scottnak said:
and of course we have to use
（ラブ～）注入

:lol Nice

RevenantKioku · Jan 28, 2011

cntrational said:
Probably apocryphal, but I've heard that the reasoning for this was that Buddhist monks were prohibited from eating any kind of meat except for bird meat, but they liked rabbit so much, they classified it as a type of bird.

Don't different cuts of meat have names based off of flowers for similar reasons?

louis89 · Jan 28, 2011

Zefah said:
黙って聞いていれば is the Mom, 調子に乗って is the Son.

So it's saying "if I keep quiet and listen to you, you'll just get carried away and that's stupid" sort of thing?

Deleted member 17706 · Jan 28, 2011

louis89 said:
So it's saying "if I keep quiet and listen to you, you'll just get carried away and that's stupid" sort of thing?

In my opinion "黙って聞いていれば" and "調子に乗る" are two expressions that are fairly particular to Japanese and don't really work that well when directly translated. Pretty much she's telling the son: "Don't be absurd! You can find the Mochizuki name anywhere. It's just a coincidence."

Smiles and Cries · Jan 28, 2011

oh this was the old thread I was looking for * bookmarked

cntr · Jan 28, 2011

RevenantKioku said:
Don't different cuts of meat have names based off of flowers for similar reasons?

I dunno.

345triangle · Jan 28, 2011

Cheesemeister said:
Just wait 'til you get to counters. Apparently, the counter for pairs of chopsticks is 膳（ぜん）. Birds? 羽（わ）. Rabbits? Also 羽.

i've met multiple japanese people who just use 匹 for rabbits. it is technically "supposed" to be 羽 but i'm not sure how that holds up in practice.

Deleted member 17706 · Jan 28, 2011

345triangle said:
i've met multiple japanese people who just use 匹 for rabbits. it is technically "supposed" to be 羽 but i'm not sure how that holds up in practice.

Honestly, I think you'd be harder pressed to find someone who consistently counts them using 羽 in casual conversations. I don't know how it was long ago, but it seems like the general rule for most people (especially younger people) is to count people as にん, animals (or even, as a joke, humans) as ひき/びき/ぴき, and non-living things as つ/こ.

Shirokun · Jan 28, 2011

vas_a_morir said:
Dammit, got my hopes up.

Sorry. I gave it a courtesy search, but came up with nothing. ２ちゃんねるとかで聞いたら？

Edit: I found this. I don't think all the chapters work, but it's a start.

scottnak · Jan 28, 2011

Cheesemeister said:
Just wait 'til you get to counters. Apparently, the counter for pairs of chopsticks is 膳（ぜん）. Birds? 羽（わ）. Rabbits? Also 羽.

Ahhh... I remember back when mechaike had that counters game where they would give an item and the next guy would have to give the proper counter for it.

Learned (most of) the counters I know that way... hah.

345triangle · Jan 28, 2011

Zefah said:
Honestly, I think you'd be harder pressed to find someone who consistently counts them using 羽 in casual conversations. I don't know how it was long ago, but it seems like the general rule for most people (especially younger people) is to count people as にん, animals (or even, as a joke, humans) as ひき/びき/ぴき, and non-living things as つ/こ.

yeah, now that you put it like that i think you can pretty much get by with those plus 枚, 本, 杯 and 台. i can't think of any i use with much regularity besides them.

Mik2121 · Jan 28, 2011

Yup. For all I know, the ones used mostly are:

～人　（にん） - People
～台　（だい）For computers, cars and other mechanical stuff
～匹　（ひき、びき、ぴき）For small animals
～個　（こ）For a lot of things
～つ For... a lot of things

And some that are also used a lot like:

～名　（めい）For people
～頭　（とう）For big animals (horses, elephants, lions, etc..)
～冊　（さつ）For books, magazines, etc..

And many other for like 本、第、etc...

Deleted member 17706 · Jan 28, 2011

scottnak said:
Ahhh... I remember back when mechaike had that counters game where they would give an item and the next guy would have to give the proper counter for it.

Learned (most of) the counters I know that way... hah.

Same!

Man, I haven't watched that show in years.

345triangle said:
yeah, now that you put it like that i think you can pretty much get by with those plus 枚, 本, 杯 and 台. i can't think of any i use with much regularity besides them.

Mik2121 said:
Yup. For all I know, the ones used mostly are:

～人　（にん） - People
～台　（だい）For computers, cars and other mechanical stuff
～匹　（ひき、びき、ぴき）For small animals
～個　（こ）For a lot of things
～つ For... a lot of things

And some that are also used a lot like:

～名　（めい）For people
～頭　（とう）For big animals (horses, elephants, lions, etc..)
～冊　（さつ）For books, magazines, etc..

And many other for like 本、第、etc...

Indeed, indeed. Anything beyond this is practically in the realm of trivial for modern conversational Japanese.

Vox-Pop · Jan 30, 2011

Going to start learning Japanese again since I have a lot of free time because i'm not going to school anymore.

Just ordered Hesig's Remembering the Kana.

Just thinking ahead.
Where should i go next? Kanji?

Once I start learning more characters what should i do next? When do i start learning words? What should I just foundation source for grammar, structure, etc?

Looking for a book, online sites distract me.

thanks.

345triangle · Jan 30, 2011

after learning all the kana i think a good next step for anyone is a thing called human japanese, which i got as an iphone app but you can use it on your computer as well. it basically just does a really good job of explaining why japanese grammar is the way it is in a way that makes sense to english speakers, so that you'll quickly pick up the basics of syntax along with the first important words etc.

http://humanjapanese.com/home.html

cntr · Jan 30, 2011

Vox-Pop said:
Going to start learning Japanese again since I have a lot of free time because i'm not going to school anymore.

Just ordered Hesig's Remembering the Kana.

Just thinking ahead.
Where should i go next? Kanji?

Once I start learning more characters what should i do next? When do i start learning words? What should I just foundation source for grammar, structure, etc?

Looking for a book, online sites distract me.

thanks.

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.co...apanese-on-your-own-having-fun-and-to-fluency

Synth_floyd · Jan 30, 2011

Counter words are really not hard. There's only a couple that you need to know

MadraptorMan · Jan 30, 2011

Who the hell counts rabbits?

cntr · Jan 30, 2011

MadraptorMan said:
Who the hell counts rabbits?

Zombies from outer space.

louis89 · Feb 1, 2011

So I have an interview for JET next Friday. I know there are some people here who have done/are doing this programme, so... any tips?

Shouta · Feb 1, 2011

I'm with JET currently though I'm not recontracting this year (this being my 3rd year).

The interview is fairly standard but it's a bit difficult to pinpoint exactly what criteria they use to select folks. If I had to guess, they're looking for folks that are a bit interested in actually doing stuff in Japan and very approachable. Most of the JETs I've met here are generally like that. The reason being is that if you don't speak any Japanese and give off an aura that makes you hard to talk to, you won't be able to communicate quite as well with your coworkers. It would even be worse with your students.

vas_a_morir · Feb 2, 2011

I've been told that the Jet people will take a person with no Japanese speaking ability and teaching experience over someone who is comparatively fluent in Japanese with no teaching experience.

I've been told this by people in Jet and people who were rejected by jet. I know personally of a guy who had no Japanese experience but had taught as a grad student who got the job over someone who spoke Japanese extremely well who had no such experience.

Deleted member 17706 · Feb 2, 2011

vas_a_morir said:
I've been told that the Jet people will take a person with no Japanese speaking ability and teaching experience over someone who is comparatively fluent in Japanese with no teaching experience.

I've been told this by people in Jet and people who were rejected by jet. I know personally of a guy who had no Japanese experience but had taught as a grad student who got the job over someone who spoke Japanese extremely well who had no such experience.

A person who speaks Japanese very well should be applying for the CIR (Coordinator for International Relations) position at JET, not the ALT position (Assistant Language Teacher). Then again, I've never applied for JET, but all I've ever heard is that they aren't interested in hiring people who are highly proficient at Japanese for their ALT positions.

vas_a_morir · Feb 2, 2011

Zefah said:
A person who speaks Japanese very well should be applying for the CIR (Coordinator for International Relations) position at JET, not the ALT position (Assistant Language Teacher). Then again, I've never applied for JET, but all I've ever heard is that they aren't interested in hiring people who are highly proficient at Japanese for their ALT positions.

That's right, I've heard that one. I hear that is really competitive, though.

Shouta · Feb 2, 2011

CIR positions are relatively scarce and while no Japanese ability is needed for being an ALT, it's so ridiculously useful while working here. It makes getting to know your coworkers and just working a lot better. JET also takes a lot of folks without teaching experience and some with so yeah, can't really figure them out in that area.

Speaking Japanese and being Japanese is two different things though. I spoke quite a bit of Japanese before I got here and still got accepted, granted I was an alternate but still. Being able to use the language and still maintaining that air of foreigner is probably what would allow you to take an ALT position with Japanese knowledge.

Also, ALT and CIR positions are pretty different.

RevenantKioku · Feb 2, 2011

At least here in Nara each year we seem to be getting less and less people with absolutely no Japanese knowledge. There are some ALTs with Japanese leagues above the CIRs, so it's all not necessarily anything. It's all very confusing. Just apply to the job you'd want, knowing that CIR requires Japanese skills while ALT does not technically. (It's still a good idea.)

Zoe · Feb 2, 2011

What level of Japanese would you guys say CIR requires?

Deleted member 17706 · Feb 2, 2011

Zoe said:
What level of Japanese would you guys say CIR requires?

I think I remember hearing that they require at least JLPT2 level. I don't know if that is true, or has changed (especially in light of the new JLPT system), though. Pretty much the ability to read, write, and speak in a business environment.

KidA Seven · Feb 2, 2011

345triangle said:
after learning all the kana i think a good next step for anyone is a thing called human japanese, which i got as an iphone app but you can use it on your computer as well. it basically just does a really good job of explaining why japanese grammar is the way it is in a way that makes sense to english speakers, so that you'll quickly pick up the basics of syntax along with the first important words etc.

http://humanjapanese.com/home.html

Yeah, I'm currently using this, Pimsleur, and looking at grammar notes from japanese-online.com.

Shouta · Feb 2, 2011

Zefah said:
I think I remember hearing that they require at least JLPT2 level. I don't know if that is true, or has changed (especially in light of the new JLPT system), though. Pretty much the ability to read, write, and speak in a business environment.

At least JLPT2 but functionally, probably JLPT1 would be for the best. Granted, the jump from JLPT2 to JLPT1 is freaking massive.

vas_a_morir · Feb 2, 2011

Shouta said:
At least JLPT2 but functionally, probably JLPT1 would be for the best. Granted, the jump from JLPT2 to JLPT1 is freaking massive.

I'm JLPT 2, and I feel like I'm miles away from JLPT 1.

shanshan310 · Feb 6, 2011

wow, I didn't even know about these CIR positions. How do they differ from the ALT positions. "international relations" sounds much more enticing than teaching English, to me at least.

Shouta · Feb 7, 2011

vas_a_morir said:
I'm JLPT 2, and I feel like I'm miles away from JLPT 1.

Hence the massive leap, heh. JLPT2 is bare minimum functional Japanese from what I've seen of the tests. JLPT1 is like high-level Japanese or pretty darn close so the jump is pretty significant. The tests themselves only measure how much book knowledge you retain though as it doesn't measure spoken fluency or cultural awareness though.

shanshan310 said:
wow, I didn't even know about these CIR positions. How do they differ from the ALT positions. "international relations" sounds much more enticing than teaching English, to me at least.

CIR positions are pretty few and far between like I mentioned above. Sometimes folks will be roped into being a CIR but end up doing the job of an ALT too so it can be a bit of a crapshoot. Most CIRs do CIR jobs though as far as I know.

shanshan310 · Feb 7, 2011

Shouta said:
Hence the massive leap, heh. JLPT2 is bare minimum functional Japanese from what I've seen of the tests. JLPT1 is like high-level Japanese or pretty darn close so the jump is pretty significant. The tests themselves only measure how much book knowledge you retain though as it doesn't measure spoken fluency or cultural awareness though.

Or writing abilities, which is a shame. I wonder, after making some changes to the JLPT last year by introducing N5, do you think they'd consider doing a more broad test? Writing, Speaking, and Cultural elements are pretty crutial for communication.

CIR positions are pretty few and far between like I mentioned above. Sometimes folks will be roped into being a CIR but end up doing the job of an ALT too so it can be a bit of a crapshoot. Most CIRs do CIR jobs though as far as I know.

that sucks.

I'd still like to consider it, if possible. I imagine it would be pretty tough to land a position. Cool though.

Masked Man · Feb 7, 2011

Shouta said:
JLPT1 is like high-level Japanese or pretty darn close so the jump is pretty significant. The tests themselves only measure how much book knowledge you retain though as it doesn't measure spoken fluency or cultural awareness though.

Yeah, I just took N1 in December, and this was probably what struck me the most about the test. Ultimately, the test isn't really as comprehensive as they like to pretend.

shanshan310 · Feb 7, 2011

Masked Man said:
Yeah, I just took N1 in December, and this was probably what struck me the most about the test. Ultimately, the test isn't really as comprehensive as they like to pretend.

Maybe it says something about the Japanese style of studying (if there is one). From what I've seen of language learning in Japanese schools its a lot of rote memorization and not a large focus not culture/ speaking. Maybe you guys have a different experience though.

bigmit3737 · Feb 8, 2011

なやます。 I'm trying to understand how to use this word. I was told that this word is used when you are troubled by discomfort?

Can someone give me an example sentence as well?
If you use Kanji, please add the Hiragana in brackets next to the Kanji.
I would also like a translation of the sentence. Thank you so much.

Zoe · Feb 8, 2011

bigmit3737 said:
なやます。 I'm trying to understand how to use this word. I was told that this word is used when you are troubled by discomfort?

Can someone give me an example sentence as well?
If you use Kanji, please add the Hiragana in brackets next to the Kanji.
I would also like a translation of the sentence. Thank you so much.

There are plenty of examples here:
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?1Q%C7%BA%A4%DE%A4%B9_0__

If you need the reading of a kanji, copy and paste the sentence in the "Text Glossing" page.

sotodefonk · Feb 8, 2011

bigmit3737 said:
なやます。 I'm trying to understand how to use this word. I was told that this word is used when you are troubled by discomfort?

Can someone give me an example sentence as well?
If you use Kanji, please add the Hiragana in brackets next to the Kanji.
I would also like a translation of the sentence. Thank you so much.

I dont really understand it, but I searched it in "Japanese" and this is an example:

In Kanji:
海外にいくと必ず、時差ぼけと下痢になやまされる。

Hiragana:
かいがいにいくとかならず、じさぼけとげりになやまされる。

Translate in english:
Whenever I go abroad, I suffer from jet lag and diarrhea.

It has more examples and I could just grab a screenshoit from my phone and post it if you want several examples.

bigmit3737 · Feb 8, 2011

Zoe said:
There are plenty of examples here:
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?1Q%C7%BA%A4%DE%A4%B9_0__

If you need the reading of a kanji, copy and paste the sentence in the "Text Glossing" page.

Thanks. This site is very useful.

bigmit3737 · Feb 8, 2011

sotodefonk said:
I dont really understand it, but I searched it in "Japanese" and this is an example:

In Kanji:
海外にいくと必ず、時差ぼけと下痢になやまされる。

Hiragana:
かいがいにいくとかならず、じさぼけとげりになやまされる。

Translate in english:
Whenever I go abroad, I suffer from jet lag and diarrhea.

It has more examples and I could just grab a screenshoit from my phone and post it if you want several examples.

This is a good example actually. Thank you.

Kaizen · Feb 12, 2011

hello j-gaf

First of all I'm a beginner!

I've learned Hiragana and Katakana and bought Remembering the Kanji.

Should I use Anki right from the beginning? And where do I get my sentences from ?

I'm quite confused right now..

shanshan310 · Feb 12, 2011

Kaizen said:
hello j-gaf

First of all I'm a beginner!

I've learned Hiragana and Katakana and bought Remembering the Kanji.

Should I use Anki right from the beginning? And where do I get my sentences from ?

I'm quite confused right now..

This thread is so full of different ideas about learning, no wonder you're confused!

Well, now its time to learn some grammar I suppose.

Anki are flashcards right? That'd be good for vocab. If you want a goo beginner vocab set, maybe go for some JLPT (Japanese language proficiency test) Level 5 cards.

Minna No Nihongo was pretty good for grammar, though you have to buy two books (one in Japanese with examples and quizes, and one with English explainations). I've also heard good things about Japanese for Busy People. Depends on how much money you have to spend. I'm sure you can get grammar help online for free somewhere.

Also take some time out to familiarise yourself with the language. If you like anime, you can listen to that, or there are plenty of great Japanese films (I recommend departures). You can download podcasts in Japanese (either of Japanese lessons or just people talking). The more you hear it the easier it will become to hear it. Even if you can't understand, just listen to the flow.

Do you plan to study on your own or in a class? Even if you do plan to do self study, getting a tutor maybe once a week/fornight just to check up on your progress, help with questions and give you some direction is a good idea.

CharliePants · Feb 12, 2011

Kaizen said:
hello j-gaf

First of all I'm a beginner!

I've learned Hiragana and Katakana and bought Remembering the Kanji.

Should I use Anki right from the beginning? And where do I get my sentences from ?

I'm quite confused right now..

Use this site while working through Remembering the Kanji. Keeps track of reviews and has lots of user submitted stories.

I focused solely on RTK when I started - didn't bother with vocab or grammar until I had finished the first book and it worked out pretty well. If you want to work through some vocab on the side you could try the shared Core2000 Anki deck, but it might be a little difficult with no kanji under your belt.

345triangle · Feb 12, 2011

anyone else's JLPT results come through today? turns out i passed N3 pretty comfortably, so i'm going to start working towards N2 for this summer.

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