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The Climate Change Crisis & Looking Away

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Lime

Member
Long article on the Guardian by Naomi Klein on climate change, the lack of inaction after so many years, the denial by many countries and the lack of binding commitment by the ones polluting the most, the disastreous dangers and catastrophes we will experience, and so on: Much more at the link.

We know that if we continue on our current path of allowing emissions to rise year after year, climate change will change everything about our world. Major cities will very likely drown, ancient cultures will be swallowed by the seas, and there is a very high chance that our children will spend a great deal of their lives fleeing and recovering from vicious storms and extreme droughts. And we don’t have to do anything to bring about this future. All we have to do is nothing. Just continue to do what we are doing now, whether it’s counting on a techno-fix or tending to our gardens or telling ourselves we’re unfortunately too busy to deal with it.

All we have to do is not react as if this is a full-blown crisis. All we have to do is keep on denying how frightened we actually are. And then, bit by bit, we will have arrived at the place we most fear, the thing from which we have been averting our eyes. No additional effort required.

There are ways of preventing this grim future, or at least making it a lot less dire. But the catch is that these also involve changing everything. For us high consumers, it involves changing how we live, how our economies function, even the stories we tell about our place on earth. The good news is that many of these changes are distinctly uncatastrophic. Many are downright exciting. But I didn’t discover this for a long while.

The world’s governments have been talking about preventing climate change for more than two decades; they began negotiating the year that Anjali, then 21 years old, was born. And yet as she pointed out in her memorable speech on the convention floor, delivered on behalf of all of the assembled young people: “In that time, you’ve failed to meet pledges, you’ve missed targets, and you’ve broken promises.” In truth, the intergovernmental body entrusted to prevent “dangerous” levels of climate change has not only failed to make progress over its 20-odd years of work (and almost 100 official negotiation meetings since the agreement was adopted), it has overseen a process of virtually uninterrupted backsliding. Our governments wasted years fudging numbers and squabbling over start dates, perpetually trying to get extensions like undergrads with late term papers.

The catastrophic result of all this obfuscation and procrastination is now undeniable. In 2013, global carbon dioxide emissions were 61% higher than they were in 1990, when negotiations toward a climate treaty began in earnest. Indeed the only thing rising faster than our emissions is the output of words pledging to lower them. Meanwhile, the annual UN climate summit, which remains the best hope for a political breakthrough on climate action, has started to seem less like a forum for serious negotiation than a very costly and high-carbon group therapy session, a place for the representatives of the most vulnerable countries in the world to vent their grief and rage while low-level representatives of the nations largely responsible for their tragedies stare at their shoes.

In Copenhagen, the major polluting governments – including the US and China – signed a nonbinding agreement pledging to keep temperatures from increasing more than 2C above where they were before we started powering our economies with coal. This well-known target, which supposedly represents the “safe” limit of climate change, has always been a highly political choice that has more to do with minimising economic disruption than with protecting the greatest number of people. When the two degrees target was made official in Copenhagen, there were impassioned objections from many delegates who said the goal amounted to a “death sentence” for some low-lying island states, as well as for large parts of Sub-Saharan Africa. In fact it is a very risky target for all of us: so far, temperatures have increased by just 0.8C and we are already experiencing many alarming impacts, including the unprecedented melting of the Greenland ice sheet in the summer of 2012 and the acidification of oceans far more rapidly than expected. Allowing temperatures to warm by more than twice that amount will unquestionably have perilous consequences.

In a 2012 report, the World Bank laid out the gamble implied by that target. “As global warming approaches and exceeds two degrees Celsius, there is a risk of triggering nonlinear tipping elements. Examples include the disintegration of the West Antarctic ice sheet leading to more rapid sea-level rise, or large-scale Amazon dieback drastically affecting ecosystems, rivers, agriculture, energy production, and livelihoods. This would further add to 21st-century global warming and impact entire continents.” In other words, once we allow temperatures to climb past a certain point, where the mercury stops is not in our control.

But the bigger problem – and the reason Copenhagen caused such great despair – is that because governments did not agree to binding targets, they are free to pretty much ignore their commitments. Which is precisely what is happening. Indeed, emissions are rising so rapidly that unless something radical changes within our economic structure, two degrees now looks like a utopian dream. And it’s not just environmentalists who are raising the alarm. The World Bank also warned when it released its report that “we’re on track for a 4C warmer world [by century’s end] marked by extreme heat waves, declining global food stocks, loss of ecosystems and biodiversity, and life-threatening sea level rise.” And the report cautioned that, “there is also no certainty that adaptation to a 4C world is possible.” Kevin Anderson, former director (now deputy director) of the Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research, which has quickly established itself as one of the UK’s premier climate research institutions, is even blunter; he says 4C warming is “incompatible with any reasonable characterisation of an organised, equitable and civilised global community”.

We don’t know exactly what a 4C world would look like, but even the best-case scenario is likely to be calamitous. Four degrees of warming could raise global sea levels by one or possibly even two meters by 2100 (and would lock in at least a few additional meters over future centuries). This would drown some island nations such as the Maldives and Tuvalu, and inundate many coastal areas from Ecuador and Brazil to the Netherlands to much of California and the northeastern US, as well as huge swaths of South and south-east Asia. Major cities likely in jeopardy include Boston, New York, greater Los Angeles, Vancouver, London, Mumbai, Hong Kong, and Shanghai.

Meanwhile, brutal heat waves that can kill tens of thousands of people, even in wealthy countries, would become entirely unremarkable summer events on every continent but Antarctica. The heat would also cause staple crops to suffer dramatic yield losses across the globe (it is possible that Indian wheat and US corn could plummet by as much as 60%), this at a time when demand will be surging due to population growth and a growing demand for meat. When you add ruinous hurricanes, raging wildfires, fisheries collapses, widespread disruptions to water supplies, extinctions, and globe-trotting diseases to the mix, it indeed becomes difficult to imagine that a peaceful, ordered society could be sustained (that is, where such a thing exists in the first place).

Keep in mind that these are the optimistic scenarios in which warming is more or less stabilized at 4C and does not trigger tipping points beyond which runaway warming would occur. And this process may be starting sooner than anyone predicted. In May 2014, Nasa and University of California, Irvine scientists revealed that glacier melt in a section of West Antarctica roughly the size of France now “appears unstoppable”. This likely spells eventual doom for the entire West Antarctic ice sheet, which according to lead study author Eric Rignot “comes with a sea level rise of between three and five metres. Such an event will displace millions of people worldwide.” The disintegration, however, could unfold over centuries and there is still time for emission reductions to slow down the process and prevent the worst.

Much more frightening than any of this is the fact that plenty of mainstream analysts think that on our current emissions trajectory, we are headed for even more than four degrees of warming. In 2011, the usually staid International Energy Agency (IEA) issued a report projecting that we are actually on track for 6C – 10.8F – of warming. And as the IEA’s chief economist Fatih Birol put it: “Everybody, even the school children, knows that this will have catastrophic implications for all of us.”

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/mar/06/dont-look-away-now-the-climate-crisis-needs-you
 

Wiktor

Member
The problem is that the poorer nations will continue to pollute and telling them to stop is too selfish to be considered as realistic
 

ahoyhoy

Unconfirmed Member
The problem is that the poorer nations will continue to pollute and telling them to stop is too selfish to be considered as realistic

The alternative would be to:

1) Lead by example and turn over our energy consumption to something more sustainable
2) Assist them in transitioning their burgeoning energy consumption away from traditional coal/oil and towards a model we've already established that works.

But of course that would mean we have less money for Playstations so we can't have that.
 

Kabouter

Member
The problem is that the poorer nations will continue to pollute and telling them to stop is too selfish to be considered as realistic

You know, people say this a lot of the time, but then fail to mention that countries that have already industrialized output many, many times more per capita. We may criticize a developing country in Africa for doubling its output per capita, but fail to acknowledge that even that higher CO2 output pales in comparison to our own. If anyone wants to prevent global warming from escalating even more, it's going to have to be the world's economic great powers that lead the way.

If you want to make serious strides, there's really only one way. Less. People need to consume less. Use less energy, consume less raw materials and so on.
 

ahoyhoy

Unconfirmed Member
You know, people say this a lot of the time, but then fail to mention that countries that have already industrialized output many, many times more per capita. We may criticize a developing country in Africa for doubling its output per capita, but fail to acknowledge that even that higher CO2 output pales in comparison to our own. If anyone wants to prevent global warming from escalating even more, it's going to have to be the world's economic great powers that lead the way.

If you want to make serious strides, there's really only one way. Less. People need to consume less. Use less energy, consume less raw materials and so on.

That's the easiest and most immediate solution to the problem but the one thing most people really don't feel comfortable talking about. No one really wants the government to impose a reduction on consumerism on the populace but at the same time no one wants to individually curb their own consumption habits if others aren't doing the same thing.

Essentially our rampant consumption culture is a tragedy of the commons dilemma writ large. We would probably be more willing to acknowledge the issue if the commons weren't so damn big and our own individual role in its destruction so miniscule.
 

Nabbis

Member
The problem is that the poorer nations will continue to pollute and telling them to stop is too selfish to be considered as realistic

A bulk of their population is already living in shit, literally. I don't see what they would get out of lowering their economic growth. It's also worth mentioning that the very reason they do this is because of foreign business in the first place. If people want change, first world nations need to stop the exploitation of cheap goods.
 
A few major cities have to completely be annihilated by the effects of Climate Change. London, New York, Los Angeles, Tokyo, ect.. And only then will be see unified action. Millions of people have to die in a very short period of time. Nothing else will get us to change course.
 

kitch9

Banned
We need to crack the Fusion riddle and then miniaturize it stat. If you ask me Governments should not be spending billions on renewables they should be ploughing everything into getting Fusion up and running.

Lockheed better come up with the goods.
 

Mrmartel

Banned
You know, people say this a lot of the time, but then fail to mention that countries that have already industrialized output many, many times more per capita. We may criticize a developing country in Africa for doubling its output per capita, but fail to acknowledge that even that higher CO2 output pales in comparison to our own. If anyone wants to prevent global warming from escalating even more, it's going to have to be the world's economic great powers that lead the way.

If you want to make serious strides, there's really only one way. Less. People need to consume less. Use less energy, consume less raw materials and so on.

A great Ideal to strive for, but impossible for it to ever occur. People in the West and in developing Eastern countries are so deep into materialism/consumerism that it would take a dead world to come up and smack them in the face.

It's also an issue that crosses politics, classes, ethnicity, everything. The right/left, the poor/middle class/Rich, white/minority everyone has sold their soul to the devil on this issue

Also climate change has more hypocrites backing it, then any other serious issue of the day. Think of Leo D and his fleet of vehicles, private jets and massive houses. Or even the liberal environmentalist next door, who has an hour long shower everyday and takes trips in planes every 2 weeks.
 
We need to crack the Fusion riddle and then miniaturize it stat. If you ask me Governments should not be spending billions on renewables they should be ploughing everything into getting Fusion up and running.

Lockheed better come up with the goods.
ITER is an experimental fusion reactor built and funded by the EU, India, Japan, China, Russia, South Korea and the United States. So effort is being made but due to the size of these reactors progress is slow.
 

cackhyena

Member
are you two being sarcastic or sincere?

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Kabouter

Member
We need to crack the Fusion riddle and then miniaturize it stat. If you ask me Governments should not be spending billions on renewables they should be ploughing everything into getting Fusion up and running.

Lockheed better come up with the goods.

Betting the farm on fusion is a terrible idea, because if it doesn't work out, we're really fucked. Sure, invest in it for the long run, fantastic idea, it's clearly the future, but it's far from certain that future is any time soon. Focus on efficiency, invest more in developing walkable communities, invest more in insulating homes, encourage more eco-friendly construction (and this should not mean encourage huge energy-inefficient glass buildings with some solar panels on top like it tends to do) and so on. Aside from those things, which at least are things that don't necessarily have to impact people's lifestyles in a significant way (and are thus more politically feasible), invest heavily in nuclear (fission) power. Windmills and solar panels are nice and all, but they're not going to cut it.

A great Ideal to strive for, but impossible for it to ever occur. People in the West and in developing Eastern countries are so deep into materialism/consumerism that it would take a dead world to come up and smack them in the face.

It's also an issue that crosses politics, classes, ethnicity, everything. The right/left, the poor/middle class/Rich, white/minority everyone has sold their soul to the devil on this issue

Also climate change has more hypocrites backing it, then any other serious issue of the day. Think of Leo D and his fleet of vehicles, private jets and massive houses. Or even the liberal environmentalist next door, who has an hour long shower everyday and takes trips in planes every 2 weeks.

I don't disagree.
 

Newt

Member
Some US politicians don't even believe in evolution, how do you expect them to grasp global warming?
 

iamblades

Member
You know, people say this a lot of the time, but then fail to mention that countries that have already industrialized output many, many times more per capita. We may criticize a developing country in Africa for doubling its output per capita, but fail to acknowledge that even that higher CO2 output pales in comparison to our own. If anyone wants to prevent global warming from escalating even more, it's going to have to be the world's economic great powers that lead the way.

If you want to make serious strides, there's really only one way. Less. People need to consume less. Use less energy, consume less raw materials and so on.

Not going to happen. People are not going to willingly go backwards in lifestyle, and that's what would be required if we switched over to all green technologies at the moment. Eventually those technologies will solve this problem(it is already starting to happen) but it takes time to roll out a complete infrastructure change over.

There is also that we don't even know that stopping all carbon output immediately would halt the warming or if it is too late.

One way or another we are going to have to solve this problem with geo-engineering, and there are plenty of solutions which are both theoretically feasible and cost effective, but no one is going to be interested in taking them seriously until we reach a last resort situation.
 
After halting carbon emissions we'd then have to achieve negative carbon emissions by removing what we've already put into the atmosphere (which is technically feasible but not economically appealing). Given the costs involved I doubt anyone is going to bother with that until they absolutely have to.
 

Dicer

Banned
A few major cities have to completely be annihilated by the effects of Climate Change. London, New York, Los Angeles, Tokyo, ect.. And only then will be see unified action. Millions of people have to die in a very short period of time. Nothing else will get us to change course.

Pretty much...
 

Maengun1

Member
Earth Day bump? Almost started a new thread but figured there would be a relevant recent one.

I've been reading some climate studies and articles this week because, despite always trusting the scientific consensus that climate change is real, caused by us, and dangerous...I didn't really know all that much about it. A lot of what I learned is stuff in this OP...aka really bad news.

I mean damn, there is a range of opinions on how bad the effects will really be, but basically even if we stopped using fossil fuels now we're still going to be in for some hurt. Which, lol, yeah that's not happening. I saw that the proposed plan that the UN is going to be discussing in December (not approved yet) is hoping for an 80-100% reduction in emissions by 2050. Not exactly tomorrow, but even that far off date kind of feels like a pipe dream with how reluctant people are to lay off on fossil fuels today.

IDK what I'm even getting at here, just kind of finally got more a bit more informed on this issue and felt like rambling a bit. It all feels pretty hopeless, though I know that attitude accomplishes nothing so I'm trying to focus on stuff I can actually do. Of course my congressman is a climate change denier (who I've voted against every single time he ran, for all the good it did).

Anyone feeling optimistic?
 

sasliquid

Member
Earth Day bump? Almost started a new thread but figured there would be a relevant recent one.

I've been reading some climate studies and articles this week because, despite always trusting the scientific consensus that climate change is real, caused by us, and dangerous...I didn't really know all that much about it. A lot of what I learned is stuff in this OP...aka really bad news.

I mean damn, there is a range of opinions on how bad the effects will really be, but basically even if we stopped using fossil fuels now we're still going to be in for some hurt. Which, lol, yeah that's not happening. I saw that the proposed plan that the UN is going to be discussing in December (not approved yet) is hoping for an 80-100% reduction in emissions by 2050. Not exactly tomorrow, but even that far off date kind of feels like a pipe dream with how reluctant people are to lay off on fossil fuels today.

IDK what I'm even getting at here, just kind of finally got more a bit more informed on this issue and felt like rambling a bit. It all feels pretty hopeless, though I know that attitude accomplishes nothing so I'm trying to focus on stuff I can actually do. Of course my congressman is a climate change denier (who I've voted against every single time he ran, for all the good it did).

Anyone feeling optimistic?

Optimistic? I'm post grad global environmental change student and no I'm not.

Climate change is such a massive and complicated problem that seems almost purposefully against how human psychology works. Despite the fact we are 99% sure it's happening it's difficult to go "look that's because of CC" coz it's more a probability thing.

As you mention COP21 is in December (my masters thesis is going to be about public perceptions around it) and its considered the most important CC debate since Copenhagen 2009 which was almost a total disaster (thanks Obama for actually getting anything positive from it). After COP we may have a better idea at the future.

People saying this stuff is scary don't know how bad it could really be if we don't do anything and just pollute more than expected.

Edit: but don't lose hope, humanity can still get through it. Just make sure you turn lights etc off and vote for the right people and raise awareness, every little helps.
Oh and sign that guardian petition.
 

jey_16

Banned
I don't see us fixing it to be honest, damage has been done and no country is prepared to take the steps to prevent it.

We actually had a carbon tax here in Australia and the idiots actually got rid of it all because of politics.

Hopefully I'm dead before the shit hits the fan
 

ICKE

Banned
Taking substantive action to address these issues is too problematic when you look at the short term finances and budget deficits.

Besides, mostly third world nations will face humanitarian disasters. From a geopolitical perspective the refugee flood will be rather severe but at the same time Europe and North America will be able to consolidate their power even more. I wish we were able to find green solutions and help various countries to protect their local environments but it looks like current market forces are opposed to such policies. We use poor nations as cyber junkyards, don't really care that China is completely destroying its nature and so forth.
 

demon

I don't mean to alarm you but you have dogs on your face
I'm sure humanity can get through it, but I imagine society will look and function drastically different 100 years from now because of climate change and how we respond to and live with it. We're enjoying our fossil fuels now but humanity will have to lie in the bed of shit we've created decades down the road.
 

BobLoblaw

Banned
Of all the things to contribute to the destruction of this planet, are we really surprised that money is at the root of it?
 

Evolved1

make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
Scientists always accused of fear mongering and yet for the last couple decades, over and over, the worst case scenarios of the models are proven too conservative.

This thing is running away from us. I've got this feeling in my gut that it's probably too late, even if we all collectively moved right now to slow it. Ice is melting faster than we ever predicted, permafrost is melting and releasing methane... that is the scariest thing to think about, when that runs away from us, since it's 100% out of our hands at that point. And with the ocean warming and growing more acidic (knowing there's about a 20 year lag time on ocean feedback), idk... scare mongering is just truth telling.
 
It kinda pissed me off in Interstellar, but this idea that we'll figure out space travel or some crazy future tech magic to save us in the future is fucked up and risky. Not to mention, just plain lazy...

Human society is based around growth. It's how we measure success (gdp for example). We kinda have to move away from that
 

Evolved1

make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
Just watched this a few weeks back... appropriate for Earth Day and this thread.

Another I found interesting. A different angle considering the perspective of insurance companies and lawyers with regard to highly coveted big-money coastal real estate.
 

jerry113

Banned
It's going to affect poor people in poor countries (and the ones that don't have as much power to stop it) the most first. By the time it noticeably inconveniences people in wealthier countries, it'll be too late.
 

Evolved1

make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
It's going to affect poor people in poor countries (and the ones that don't have as much power to stop it) the most first. By the time it noticeably inconveniences people in wealthier countries, it'll be too late.

And it's actually going to hit the wealthy pretty damn hard. They're the ones with billion dollar properties on the coasts.

Watch the 2nd video I posted a little while ago.
 

Dryk

Member
I suppose on the bright side when we're all slowly boiling to death in refugee camps we'll be able to say "I told you so" :\
 
I don't see us fixing it to be honest, damage has been done and no country is prepared to take the steps to prevent it.

We actually had a carbon tax here in Australia and the idiots actually got rid of it all because of politics.

Hopefully I'm dead before the shit hits the fan

Yah I said that as well but my kids are in for some suffering. I really hope greed doesn't screw them over, but I highly doubt it. The people who have the resourcees to cause dramatic change are too greedy to care.
 
"Major cities likely in jeopardy include Boston, New York, greater Los Angeles, Vancouver, London, Mumbai, Hong Kong, and Shanghai."

When it starts to affect New York, then I believe something will be done more so in the US.

Same for China and Hong Kong.

I fear what will happen to some of the islands I want to visit in the coming future....

Some US politicians don't even believe in evolution, how do you expect them to grasp global warming?

I actually blame liberal parties for not attempting to explain what's happening in simple terms. Global warming has become a buzzword but there's no actual fucking explanation attached to it for the average joe to understand.
 

ahoyhoy

Unconfirmed Member
I don't see us fixing it to be honest, damage has been done and no country is prepared to take the steps to prevent it.

We actually had a carbon tax here in Australia and the idiots actually got rid of it all because of politics.

Hopefully I'm dead before the shit hits the fan

That's what I'm hoping for at least. The concept of "building a better world for our children" is all but dead and buried. Our collective innaction and general blaise attitude towards the whole situation is essentially us collectively whispering to future generations to pull themselves up by their shit-laden bootstraps harder.

All that's left to do is to at least enjoy the ride while we can and lazily hope that some major scientific breakthrough helps mitigate the future natural disasters to come.
 

Frith

Member
don't have kids and hope it takes a while for the shit to hit the fan = only way to stay sane given how little is being done to prepare
 

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
That's what I'm hoping for at least. The concept of "building a better world for our children" is all but dead and buried. Our collective innaction and general blaise attitude towards the whole situation is essentially us collectively whispering to future generations to pull themselves up by their shit-laden bootstraps harder.

All that's left to do is to at least enjoy the ride while we can and lazily hope that some major scientific breakthrough helps mitigate the future natural disasters to come.

This sounds exactly like the kind of attitude that wont result in solutions.
 

mclem

Member
The world’s governments have been talking about preventing climate change for more than two decades; they began negotiating the year that Anjali, then 21 years old, was born.

Must have been a difficult birth.
 

Woorloog

Banned
When it starts to affect New York, then I believe something will be done more so in the US.
And by that time, it is too late, i reckon. The change will have so much inertia behind it... it already has a lot.

No, what needs to happen is renewable energy and increased energy efficiency.
Those two are not mutually exclusive.
And changing energy production to renewable energy would not solve issues consumerism causes, would not reduced pollution from non-energy industry, etc. no? And it would not stop the fact world energy consumption is rising, is it not?
 
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