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The Climate Change Crisis & Looking Away

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GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
“Most human beings have an almost infinite capacity for taking things for granted.”

One of my favorite Huxley quotes.

I think another big issue is the impact or effects that people actually feel or have seen. Up in my rural area of Canada. Nobody gives two shits about climate change. Because none of it's effects have been felt here yet. Oh sure you see it on the news, but it happens someplace far away (yes California is far away).

Until there are massive super storms, extreme droughts and especially mass migrations (that happen locally, or affect a local populations economy and comfort) due specifically to CC, than most people could care less.

Also being a conservative area, the Liberal/Left wing talking heads and those who would enact policies to contain/reduce CC, are rightfully look at as hypocrites. Nothing more annoying than a city slicker coming into town and complaining about big trucks and massive houses. When he himself lives a horribly consumerist, materialist, jet setting lifestyle himself.

Also I can't think of any one CC advocate that practices what they preach. They are far worst hypocrites (from my experience), than those that I know that practice Christianity, Islam, or other such Orthodox beliefs

It's hard to practice what you preach when so much energy use is dependent on the infrastructure society has in place.

People don't burn their own coal to power their air conditioners, electronics, and heaters - they use the power grids society has in place which are set up to rely on carbon sources.

1/3rd of all households (and 1/3rd of the population) rents - how are they supposed to install solar panels? How are people supposed to switch to electric vehicles if charging stations are few and far between, or their apartment's garages don't have outlets to use to charge the cars? Etc.
 

Mr Swine

Banned
Sadly I think it's a little too late for change. When the shit hits the fan everybody will start complaining that this is Country X fault and Country Z will complain that it's Country Y that is the cause instead of doing something
 
This is the reaction I get when I bring up Climate Change with anyone without even bringing up consequences/affects:
bender-laughing.gif

This is very true. My sister lives in Charleston, SC and wants me to move there too. I love the city, but there's no way I'm buying a house there because there's a pretty good chance it will be decimated by hurricane in the future. Everyone laughed at me like I'm crazy saying I won't move there due to climate change, when the city floods whenever there is heavy rainfall.
 

Mrmartel

Banned
And that sums up my experience with Canadian politics in a nutshell. My slight glimmer of hope is that maybe our attitude will change in those Climate summit meetings once we finally get rid of Harper.

Doesn't matter if It's Harper or Trudeau or the NDP. Any policies trying to enact a cutback in C02 that adversely affects (whether it does or not) the economy will be crushed by public opinion. Just like in Australia with it's Carbon Tax.

If the left wing parties really want the general public to accept these policies and change their preceptions than they need to start practicing what they preach. Justin T, has to live in a house with a shower fed by rain water. Mulclair and company need to disown vehicles and stop taking vacations with plane transportation.

It's ridiculous and extreme, but the truth. Most Canadians see the policies makers in their fancy cars, Cabins by the lake, 2000 square feet apartments in Toronto, luxury cars and other such consumerist vices. Only to rightfully peg them, as saying "it's good for you, but not for me, because I buy carbon credits or something"
 

Mrmartel

Banned
It's hard to practice what you preach when so much energy use is dependent on the infrastructure society has in place.

People don't burn their own coal to power their air conditioners, electronics, and heaters - they use the power grids society has in place which are set up to rely on carbon sources.

1/3rd of all households (and 1/3rd of the population) rents - how are they supposed to install solar panels? How are people supposed to switch to electric vehicles if charging stations are few and far between, or their apartment's garages don't have outlets to use to charge the cars? Etc.

Ya the whole society is built to consume. But I get a kick out of those who say don't consume or reduce it! As they take more and use more.

There's is probably a analogy to faith to be made somewhere in this whole debate. But the biggest pusher's of it, lack any.
 
There is a degree to which the public at large will never accept taxes/etc that cause their expenses to rise but the fact that there has been so much money and effort put towards undermining every effort to make progress towards these issues, including the determination to undermine science is no small part of what has caused us to go backwards.

This push, motivated by greed and ideology, is a great deal of what has kept anything from being done.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
I thought that if we were to destroy our current tools, it is unlikely that a similar state of technology would ever be reached on this planet again because we have tapped the easily accessible metals and fuels.

Easily mined metals simply don't exist in sufficient quantity any more. (Never mind any technology that may use helium).

I'm pretty sure we'll leave behind plenty of easily accessible metals. Natural processes will replenish and disseminate a lot of other parts and resources as well.
Moreover, I don't think we'll start back at square 0. Should our civilization collapse now, what comes after will have stories of the collapse, retained some scraps of knowledge, and there'll be plenty of artifacts of our existence. But rebuilding the society and infrastructure required for this level of technology development will be a considerable effort that will likely require dozens, to hundreds to thousands of years depending on the extent of societal destruction.

This was an interesting post, but we are quickly approaching the threshold where human activity becomes moot. Can technological advancement and societal level change happen soon enough? What is the window? No one really knows, but what we are observing is that models are too conservative and things are moving fast enough to surprise scientists who made predictions within just the last five years. We interview all these scientists of different disciplines and many are saying, "Well, yeah but... this phenomenon I'm somberly describing to you at the moment in detail isn't actually even accounted for in the models". Whether it's methane releases, the diminished albedo effect from blackened snow and ice cover, there are all these contributing factors (amplifiers) that the models don't currently account for. Every year there is more of it. Every year the predictions of sea level rise look more grim. The IPCC predictions are even scary and their stuff is like a wet fart compared to reality. Too conservative. Too political. (get the fuckin politicians out of that shit already!) The window continues to shrink and we do nothing.

Unexpected and accelerating technology might be a trump card, but of course technology isn't the only thing accelerating.

I think most scientists will concur that if we stop all emissions tomorrow, the damage already done is largely recoverable.

But most climate scientists also operate on the basis that human behaviour is slow to change (because it has been), and that given the current rate of change - that carbon emissions continue to grow despite their warnings... they can only see dire results for humanity in the next few decades.

Socially, politically... we're completely fucked - and if those are the only cards we had to play, humanity would be well on its way to irrevocable climate change creating a new steady state not capable of supporting nearly as much life as it does now.

But you know... what are you going to do? Despair and give up? Best to hold onto some hope right? Technology is a far more significant vector of change in our current age than any other.

Socially/politically/psychologically (by themselves), we're just not capable of dealing with this sort of low feedback, low speed, maximally globalized problem. Even when the physical signs are becoming too obvious, we will find reasons to obfsucate and ignore.

But at this point... tech change is an inevitably, as sure as climate change is. So why not update our world model to account for it, so that we can understand the kind of social/political/psychological changes we need to make to make the best of it?

It seems far more rational to me than pretending it's not a factor when it's one of the most significant factors, and pretending as if the only tool we have to solve big problems with is trying to change human nature and behaviour.
 
so you'd rather vote for a more limited government even though more liberal parties are the only ones addressing the greatest existential crisis humankind has ever faced?

lower taxes must be pretty important to you

This snarky shit is basically what I'm talking about. My whole point is that environmentalism appears to be limited to a very specific section of politics which also have literally nothing to do with environmentalism (for example, there's nothing inherent to environmentalism that demands Foreign Policy X or Minimum Wage Y or Copywrite Expiry Z). The upshot is that they're limiting themselves to a small market of voters - those that a) have that political bent anyway, which obviously isn't that many people otherwise they'd be considered centrist or b) people for whom climate change and environmentalism is literally the most important thing such that they'd be willing to vote a party that otherwise doesn't represent what you believe in other areas. Clearly these two groups combined equate to a negligible amount of the electorate as it stands, so I don't think that's working.

Your response is effectively to say "It doesn't matter if you think they'd wreck the economy, ruin people's livlihoods, leave the country weak and culturally authoritarian - not as a consequence of their environemntal policies but rather all their other policies - they care about the environment!" Taken to its logical conclusion, your argument could be usefully depolyed to encourage voting for a party with literally any policies so long as they had the best green credentials, because there's nothing that stacks up to "the greatest existential crisis humankind has ever faced." I assume you can see the folly in this, at least.

The fact is that if you want change enforced, it'll need to be due to popular support for it. To get popular support, you need to be popular.
 
This snarky shit is basically what I'm talking about. My whole point is that environmentalism appears to be limited to a very specific section of politics which also have literally nothing to do with environmentalism (for example, there's nothing inherent to environmentalism that demands Foreign Policy X or Minimum Wage Y or Copywrite Expiry Z). The upshot is that they're limiting themselves to a small market of voters - those that a) have that political bent anyway, which obviously isn't that many people otherwise they'd be considered centrist or b) people for whom climate change and environmentalism is literally the most important thing such that they'd be willing to vote a party that otherwise doesn't represent what you believe in other areas. Clearly these two groups combined equate to a negligible amount of the electorate as it stands, so I don't think that's working.

Your response is effectively to say "It doesn't matter if you think they'd wreck the economy, ruin people's livlihoods, leave the country weak and culturally authoritarian - not as a consequence of their environemntal policies but rather all their other policies - they care about the environment!" Taken to its logical conclusion, your argument could be usefully depolyed to encourage voting for a party with literally any policies so long as they had the best green credentials, because there's nothing that stacks up to "the greatest existential crisis humankind has ever faced." I assume you can see the folly in this, at least.

The fact is that if you want change enforced, it'll need to be due to popular support for it. To get popular support, you need to be popular.

I disagree. This is a problem that should have priority over literally all other problems and should transcend ideology. We need to come up with a solution for this, otherwise it's literally lights out for humanity in a couple of decades, longer if we're lucky. Though the timeline is irrelevant, whether we're fucked in 40, 60 or a 100 years, I'd still say it's a rather pressing issue.

So, first figure this shit out and then get back to good old bickering over stupid shit.

Also, I'm sure there's enough checks and balances in place to stop environmentally oriented parties from 'ruining the country'.
 
I disagree. This is a problem that should have priority over literally all other problems and should transcend ideology. We need to come up with a solution for this, otherwise it's literally lights out for humanity in a couple of decades, longer if we're lucky. Though the timeline is irrelevant, whether we're fucked in 40, 60 or a 100 years, I'd still say it's a rather pressing issue.

So, first figure this shit out and then get back to good old bickering over stupid shit.

Also, I'm sure there's enough checks and balances in place to stop environmentally oriented parties from 'ruining the country'.

Well it's jolly good that this is what you think should happen. But if the planet keeps warming up, you could probably just ask your neighbour, the White Witch, to pop through the wardrobe with you and dump some snow in California. My point is that as long as the political support for these policies remain the domain of parties with such limited appeal, it'll never become a significant policy issue for any given country. In countries which have had success in enacting decent, world-leading environmental policies, it hasn't been because everyone decided to vote for a bunch of nutters.
 

Calabi

Member
I dont understand this attitude that because it doesn't effect people now they dont care about it or wont do anything about it. I dont believe that is the reason.

We reduced CFC usage when that didn't have an immediate effect on all environments. We also reduced widespread lead usage, same with other dangerous chemicals.

I think the general populous would be for the change's necessary to fix this climate change problem and improve improve everyone's lives. The sceptic's are way smaller than anybody think's. Its just nobody's really taking action on it, its someone else's problem and all that. The current world leadership's have become corrupt, captured by different ideas/morals, stupid, unethical.
 
Well it's jolly good that this is what you think should happen. But if the planet keeps warming up, you could probably just ask your neighbour, the White Witch, to pop through the wardrobe with you and dump some snow in California.

As in, that would be just as likely? Yeah, okay.

My point is that as long as the political support for these policies remain the domain of parties with such limited appeal, it'll never become a significant policy issue for any given country.

Sure, which is why it would be prudent to stop politicizing this problem.

In countries which have had success in enacting decent, world-leading environmental policies, it hasn't been because everyone decided to vote for a bunch of nutters.

Nutters? That's funny. I'd say the people/politicians who are still denying it either out of ignorance or because they're protecting those who financed their elections are the real nutters in this case.
 
Well it's jolly good that this is what you think should happen. But if the planet keeps warming up, you could probably just ask your neighbour, the White Witch, to pop through the wardrobe with you and dump some snow in California. My point is that as long as the political support for these policies remain the domain of parties with such limited appeal, it'll never become a significant policy issue for any given country. In countries which have had success in enacting decent, world-leading environmental policies, it hasn't been because everyone decided to vote for a bunch of nutters.

Which pro environment political faction would you describe as nutters? Are there any that you don't think are nutters?


The pro-business excuse of, it will hurt and slow economic growth has been used for ages and it's done nothing but slow environmental progress. It's tired.
 
Which pro environment political faction would you describe as nutters? Are there any that you don't think are nutters?


The pro-business excuse of, it will hurt and slow economic growth has been used for ages and it's done nothing but slow environmental progress. It's tired.

THIS can't be stated enough.
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
So what does a 4C or 6C world look like 50 or 100 years from now? I mean socially and politically. Water wars? Humanitarian crises? I remember one Discovering Channel thing possibly talking about natural resource strain causing a civil war in China in the middle of this century.
 

Maengun1

Member
Yeah, I hear "people won't really take major action until the resources really start being affected" and stuff like that. But once land and resources start getting really bad....it's probably going to lead to wars? Then the world will be focusing on a war instead.

It's all just...so frustrating
 

Evolved1

make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
So what does a 4C or 6C world look like 50 or 100 years from now? I mean socially and politically. Water wars? Humanitarian crises? I remember one Discovering Channel thing possibly talking about natural resource strain causing a civil war in China in the middle of this century.

6C is palm trees at the poles and 70 meters of sea level rise. You look back in the geologic record and the only mammals around in those conditions were the size of housecats.

How long does it take to get 5-6C warming? Idk, who knows? Some say it's a long time off, some say it's a lot faster than we'd want to believe. It's a much different world though at those temps, that's for sure.
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
6C is palm trees at the poles and 70 meters of sea level rise. You look back in the geologic record and the only mammals around in those conditions were the size of housecats.

How long does it take to get 5-6C warming? Idk, who knows? Some say it's a long time off, some say it's a lot faster than we'd want to believe. It's a much different world though at those temps, that's for sure.

Wait are you serious? I remember hearing that all the ice caps would have to melt to get that much sea level rise. Or are there other factors that would contribute?
 

Evolved1

make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
Wait are you serious? I remember hearing that all the ice caps would have to melt to get that much sea level rise. Or are there other factors that would contribute?

Remember that climate change (specifically warming) is much more concentrated at the poles. The warming we are experiencing currently is 4 to 5 times greater at the highest latitudes than it is at the equator and lower to mid latitudes. Also, the vast majority of warming is happening in the oceans, not the atmosphere. Now I don't actually know what the curve looks like as we continue to warm globally, and if that amplifying effect holds at the poles all the way through... ask a climatologist about that. What I do know is that there have been a number of times in Earth's history we can look back and get an idea what 6C actually looks like, and there's no ice at the poles. Or anywhere.

You asked what 6C actually looks like? Well imagine for a moment the statue of liberty... and it is just lady liberty's head and right arm held above the water line. That's about what no ice translates to.

That's not scare mongering, it's just stating a pretty basic fact about the amount of water we have locked up in the poles and higher altitude glaciers.

The IPCC isn't even talking about 6C though. They've been focused on predictions of 1C and now 2C... not too many folks want to talk about what happens beyond that, because... what do you say? Good night and good luck? Idk.

edit: Also don't take my word on any of this... I say look it up yourself. Information is so readily available these days for fact checking.
 
Sadly I think it's a little too late for change. When the shit hits the fan everybody will start complaining that this is Country X fault and Country Z will complain that it's Country Y that is the cause instead of doing something

Its to late to avoid huge problems. but by doing nothing the problems we will have to face in about a century will be exponantially worse.

No. 1 problem: Rising sea levels.
Billions of people live near coasts and will lose their homes => billions of refugees.
We can't avoid that. But whether we do something now or not determines whether we have billions of refugees within a decade or 5 decades.
 

Indicate

Member
As someone who has been studying the environment in the past few years, I truly believe that it's too late. The consequences that will follow from our impacts will be irreversible. We should now be focusing on how we'll be living through adverse weather conditions.
 

Evolved1

make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
As someone who has been studying the environment in the past few years, I truly believe that it's too late. The consequences that will follow from our impacts will be irreversible. We should now be focusing on how we'll be living through adverse weather conditions.

I'm just waiting for El Niño which should be hitting pretty soon... shit will get real, real fast. When the ocean decides to share some of that heat it's been hoarding since the late 90's.

Adverse weather conditions... one way to put it.
 

Dr.Parity

Banned
Its to late to avoid huge problems. but by doing nothing the problems we will have to face in about a century will be exponantially worse.

No. 1 problem: Rising sea levels.
Billions of people live near coasts and will lose their homes => billions of refugees.
We can't avoid that. But whether we do something now or not determines whether we have billions of refugees within a decade or 5 decades.

We're not going to have a billion refugees from sea level rise in a decade first off, nothing we do now will effect the effects we will experience in a decade, that's locked in from emissions from 1995-2005 from the lag effect.

However, what we do in the next 20-30 years in cutting emissions will have drastic effects on the next 50 years of warming and sea level rise in the coming centuries.

If the Paris talks have the success that people are talking about from major economic players (China, US, EU) and carbon capture tech becomes the norm in a decade along with the collapse of coal fire plants in China and US(which is already seeing a decline in use, China had an emission drop in 2014 due to a drop in coal use and the US is killing coal via EPA regulations, effectively dodging climate change talks with congress), there could be a good amount of progress in reducing emissions.

If carbon capture becomes viable in a decade the emissions from gas could be further reduced in comparisons to coal. China had an agreement with the US that they would have peak emissions around 2025/2030, but if coal is already being cut out WHILE the economy is growing at 7% annual, it means that China can cut off coal while still growing their economy possibly reducing the time it takes for peak emissions.

And global emissions stalled in 2014 while global GDP grew at something like 3%, which is good news for Paris talks when people want evidence that you don't need "cheap" energy to grow an economy.
 
Remember that climate change (specifically warming) is much more concentrated at the poles. The warming we are experiencing currently is 4 to 5 times greater at the highest latitudes than it is at the equator and lower to mid latitudes. Also, the vast majority of warming is happening in the oceans, not the atmosphere. Now I don't actually know what the curve looks like as we continue to warm globally, and if that amplifying effect holds at the poles all the way through... ask a climatologist about that. What I do know is that there have been a number of times in Earth's history we can look back and get an idea what 6C actually looks like, and there's no ice at the poles. Or anywhere.

You asked what 6C actually looks like? Well imagine for a moment the statue of liberty... and it is just lady liberty's head and right arm held above the water line. That's about what no ice translates to.

That's not scare mongering, it's just stating a pretty basic fact about the amount of water we have locked up in the poles and higher altitude glaciers.

The IPCC isn't even talking about 6C though. They've been focused on predictions of 1C and now 2C... not too many folks want to talk about what happens beyond that, because... what do you say? Good night and good luck? Idk.

edit: Also don't take my word on any of this... I say look it up yourself. Information is so readily available these days for fact checking.

You do highlight something important - the 2c and 4c thing isnt highlighted enough. Making ppl think more of the consequences of 4c then 2c might be more effective (to those who need to know more - not counting the deniers)

"Lets not talk about the bad" may be our biggest problem, I believe. We need to talk about the bad in almost an adult giving a serious lecture to a child kind of way. "This will happen if we dont do this" Politicians shouldnt look at this as just some political topic - all should agree it transcends that. Should transcend money even.

But right now it cant. California is at the brink yet politics prevents them from telling the ppl just how dire the situation is in 10 years. Panic is "bad" but once it subsides and accepted, then actual action will fucking take place. Cali is essentially representing how many of the world countries will behave before a crisis hits.
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
At 6C ice caps would be long gone.

Remember that climate change (specifically warming) is much more concentrated at the poles. The warming we are experiencing currently is 4 to 5 times greater at the highest latitudes than it is at the equator and lower to mid latitudes. Also, the vast majority of warming is happening in the oceans, not the atmosphere. Now I don't actually know what the curve looks like as we continue to warm globally, and if that amplifying effect holds at the poles all the way through... ask a climatologist about that. What I do know is that there have been a number of times in Earth's history we can look back and get an idea what 6C actually looks like, and there's no ice at the poles. Or anywhere.

You asked what 6C actually looks like? Well imagine for a moment the statue of liberty... and it is just lady liberty's head and right arm held above the water line. That's about what no ice translates to.

That's not scare mongering, it's just stating a pretty basic fact about the amount of water we have locked up in the poles and higher altitude glaciers.

The IPCC isn't even talking about 6C though. They've been focused on predictions of 1C and now 2C... not too many folks want to talk about what happens beyond that, because... what do you say? Good night and good luck? Idk.

edit: Also don't take my word on any of this... I say look it up yourself. Information is so readily available these days for fact checking.

Yeah, National Geographic created a map a while ago showing the world with no ice caps and around 70 meters of sea level rise, but that story also said it would take about 5,000 years for the poles to completely melt. Are we really possibly looking at a 4C or 6C world by 2100?

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2013/09/rising-seas/if-ice-melted-map
 

Dr.Parity

Banned
Yeah, National Geographic created a map a while ago showing the world with no ice caps and around 70 meters of sea level rise, but that story also said it would take about 5,000 years for the poles to completely melt. Are we really possibly looking at a 4C or 6C world by 2100?

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2013/09/rising-seas/if-ice-melted-map

Worst case is around 4C in most models, and that's with high emissions situations and such.

If nothing is done, then 4C is possible by the end of the century, but I personally don't see how it would be possible for absolutely nothing to be done in the next 30 years to curb emissions.
 

aeolist

Banned
Yeah, National Geographic created a map a while ago showing the world with no ice caps and around 70 meters of sea level rise, but that story also said it would take about 5,000 years for the poles to completely melt. Are we really possibly looking at a 4C or 6C world by 2100?

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2013/09/rising-seas/if-ice-melted-map

we don't really know, the problem is that the models we have can't account for tipping point events that would cause out of control accelerated warming. if we hit some kind of exponential bend in the graphs the polar ice caps could be gone far sooner than anyone is predicting.
 

aeolist

Banned
Your response is effectively to say "It doesn't matter if you think they'd wreck the economy, ruin people's livlihoods, leave the country weak and culturally authoritarian - not as a consequence of their environemntal policies but rather all their other policies - they care about the environment!"

and your response is effectively to say "it doesn't matter if the human race alters the environment to the point where we can no longer survive as a species, at least conservatives care about big business!"

the left/right leanings of whatever government is elected literally doesn't matter in the face of climate change so long as they are effective at working to solve the issues causing it. we are reaching the point where changes have to be made or we will face extinction, and you are basically complaining that the titanic's life boats aren't comfortable enough.
 

Evolved1

make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
Yeah, National Geographic created a map a while ago showing the world with no ice caps and around 70 meters of sea level rise, but that story also said it would take about 5,000 years for the poles to completely melt. Are we really possibly looking at a 4C or 6C world by 2100?

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2013/09/rising-seas/if-ice-melted-map

Personally I think so. That's just where I am on it. I feel like it's factual to state: IPCC predictions have proven too conservative. That climate scientists of many disciplines are observing rates of change greater than previously expected in their areas of study. That numerous amplifying, positive feedback cycles are beginning to emerge (or our understanding of them is sharpening) that are NOT included in the models driving climate/sea level predictions.

Those are facts. The predictions are being constantly updated and adjusted, and overwhelmingly those adjustment are moving in one direction. Toward a narrowing window for action.

I trust science. And I don't want to be credulous and get caught up in unwarranted hysteria. That said, I also understand that scientists are generally conservative in that they don't like to make wild predictions. They usually err on the side of caution. Scientific consensus by its nature is going to be conservative. Lots of reason for this and I won't weigh in on whether it's good or bad (actually I think it's generally good) but I have to keep that in the back of my mind when trying to figure out my own position.

From what I've been exposed to, I don't feel like 5 or even 6C by the end of the century is a controversial position. It's on the worst-case end of the spectrum, but I don't think it's unreasonable. I also believe (and this is most important) that no harm comes from expecting the worst. Prepare for the worst and be relieved when it never manifests. Only good can come from trying to act with urgency. Whether it's 2C or 5C, we need to act and so that's where I am. I happen to think well see major changes in the next 50-60 years, but so what if I'm wrong. Only work towards improving things in the meantime.

I honestly think we're all ultimately fucked but hey, might as well try...
 
As in, that would be just as likely? Yeah, okay.

Sure, which is why it would be prudent to stop politicizing this problem.

Nutters? That's funny. I'd say the people/politicians who are still denying it either out of ignorance or because they're protecting those who financed their elections are the real nutters in this case.

Yes, I agree the people that deny it are nutters too. There's a huge gap in the middle, though.

Which pro environment political faction would you describe as nutters? Are there any that you don't think are nutters?


The pro-business excuse of, it will hurt and slow economic growth has been used for ages and it's done nothing but slow environmental progress. It's tired.

The Green Party in the UK are nutters, for example, since they're a pro-environmental party who want us to shut down all our nuclear power stations.

You're 100% misunderstanding my point. When did I mention anything about being pro-business? Literally my entire point - and the fact you're not grasping this makes me wonder if you actually read my post - is that there's a whole host of policies that are pretty far left which have literally nothing to do with the environment (such as on defence policy or minimum wages or the exact manner in which rabbits are housed) and it's these policies, not their environmental ones (and the effects that may have on businesses or whatever) that makes me unable to vote for them. My wider point, then, is that as long as the only people that support stringent environmental controls are also people whose other policies have such massively limited appeal, nothing'll get done.

and your response is effectively to say "it doesn't matter if the human race alters the environment to the point where we can no longer survive as a species, at least conservatives care about big business!"

Please stop reading what you want to read. I know strawmen are easier to knock down but you're not helping change any minds.

the left/right leanings of whatever government is elected literally doesn't matter in the face of climate change so long as they are effective at working to solve the issues causing it. we are reaching the point where changes have to be made or we will face extinction, and you are basically complaining that the titanic's life boats aren't comfortable enough.

Taken to its logical conclusion, this argument would literally justify anything so long as the party proposing it were the most stringent on environmental controls. What would you be willing to sacrifice at that altar? Supporting business, clearly, but what else? Murdering every 5th baby? Powering the national grid by using gypsy migrants in giant hamster wheels? This might sound facetious but since literally nothing can stack up to "facing extinction", your answer has to surely be "yes", you would sacrifice those things - no? Otherwise you're just complaining about how comfortable the seats on the Titanic life boats are, or some inane comparison.
 

KingK

Member
CyclopsRock, is the green party the only party in the UK that believes in climate change and supports doing anything about it? If not, why not vote for a party that supports the environment and is not as "nutty" as you believe the greens are? You're presenting it as if your only choices are "green nuts" and climate change deniers.

Also why is the impetus on the left to give up their views on other issues and run as conservatives who happen to support action on climate change in order to stop politicizing the issue, rather than on the right to just stop denying and downplaying the issue. It's not like the left is the side turning this into a political issue when all they're doing is repeating what the science says.
 

Dr.Parity

Banned
CyclopsRock, is the green party the only party in the UK that believes in climate change and supports doing anything about it? If not, why not vote for a party that supports the environment and is not as "nutty" as you believe the greens are? You're presenting it as if your only choices are "green nuts" and climate change deniers.

Also why is the impetus on the left to give up their views on other issues and run as conservatives who happen to support action on climate change in order to stop politicizing the issue, rather than on the right to just stop denying and downplaying the issue. It's not like the left is the side turning this into a political issue when all they're doing is repeating what the science says.

Didn't two/three major party's sign a joint agreement on climate change action? I've read articles that they are all basically running on the same platform in terms of climate change.

Last year England had a 9% drop in emissions, which is once again helped due a reduction in coal use
 

Booshka

Member
I keep seeing people spraying gallons and gallons of water onto their green, grassy lawns here in SoCal, and even worse, doing it in the middle of the day. So many people literally don't give a shit, and are only concerned with maintaining their individual quality of life, no matter the overall cost, they either are ignorant, or ignore it.

It's infuriating seeing all the water waste in Southern California. I wish more people realized they live in a Desert with a made-up water supply. That water supply is now critically low, and so few people care on a day-to-day basis.

Farms and water usage are the main issue, but it's a simple fact that spraying water onto a useless lawn is completely wasting water. That water could and should be going to natural habitats and wildlife, or crops that provide food and keep the economy going, it's just mind-blowingly irresponsible to throw away such a precious resource.
 
CyclopsRock, is the green party the only party in the UK that believes in climate change and supports doing anything about it? If not, why not vote for a party that supports the environment and is not as "nutty" as you believe the greens are? You're presenting it as if your only choices are "green nuts" and climate change deniers.

There's not any mainstream party that denies it. They all have largely the same policies really - subsidising solar and wind energy, investing in green companies etc. And as has been said above, the UK has dropped its carbon output by quite a bit, and this is with a right wing government. But it's nothing like the kind of thing people in this thread are talking about re: action.

Also why is the impetus on the left to give up their views on other issues and run as conservatives who happen to support action on climate change in order to stop politicizing the issue, rather than on the right to just stop denying and downplaying the issue. It's not like the left is the side turning this into a political issue when all they're doing is repeating what the science says.

The impetus isn't on the left to give up their views. Au contraire, you can't have a party that only runs on a climate change ticket because they still need to do all the other stuff too if they ever get a sniff at power. My point is that currently the (far) left is the only section that is being served. It's absolutely the other areas of the spectrum (including the center-left, center-right, far right etc) that need to pick up the baton.
 
Glad this thread is still kicking! And there's some hope in getting more people to agree on climate change:

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/a...o-convert-christians-to-climate-change-belief

There's a point in the article which a lot of us have pretty much realized as well - political party is fast becoming the decider of what someone believes in. Republican anti-climate change propaganda is so well oiled in persuasion (linking emotion with fiction) that all you can do is just sit in awe of how they continue to keep their voters in the dark.

It's why I see Fox News as both brilliant and evil, and how disappointed I am in how no liberal news site is willing to go up/down to that level.

In the meantime though, I'm glad a woman like Katherine exists and is convincing some skeptics through other means. And more people out there exist hopefully!
 

Evolved1

make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
Glad this thread is still kicking! And there's some hope in getting more people to agree on climate change:

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/a...o-convert-christians-to-climate-change-belief

There's a point in the article which a lot of us have pretty much realized as well - political party is fast becoming the decider of what someone believes in. Republican anti-climate change propaganda is so well oiled in persuasion (linking emotion with fiction) that all you can do is just sit in awe of how they continue to keep their voters in the dark.

It's why I see Fox News as both brilliant and evil, and how disappointed I am in how no liberal news site is willing to go up/down to that level.

In the meantime though, I'm glad a woman like Katherine exists and is convincing some skeptics through other means. And more people out there exist hopefully!

She was recently on Moyers and Co.

Seems genuine enough but I couldn't get through the whole thing. The faith stuff is a turn off, and I cannot listen to it, but I think it's good what she's doing. Especially if it's getting results. It's too bad she has to put everything through a bible filter to get people to accept it.
 
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