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The Dark Knight SPOILER THREAD
- Thread starter Costanza
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MisterHero
Super Member
Suspension of belief is a priority in any story you tell [serious ones anyways]. And Nolan does a terrific job of that, don't get me wrong. I just think sometimes it was a little over-explanatory. And perhaps for the purpose and necessity to appeal to beyond the fans it was the best thing to do.Mr. Snrub said:
And the more that's explained, the less of the source material gets used. So far it's almost certain that Robin wouldn't appear, and that certain villains are too "odd" to be used (heck, a lot of people are discussing the impossibilty of a Batman meeting Superman
). While it's probably a non-issue, I fear it could diminish the comic book source material rather than spur it.Perhaps comics could be refined as well (what with Marvel's Ultimate line or DC having Crises every few years) and thus can be said that they're very inefficient at story telling. Among others, non-canon stuff like Superman I/II and the DCAU have made important contributions to DC canon, so maybe Nolan's work will do the same.
Though if the fans love it with whatever Nolan does, I don't have a problem with that.
The over-explanation isn't a problem for everyone as it is for me.
The name Joker was fine when he left the card at the end of Begins, and the quote "Why so serious?" and it removes the gimmickry from the name. He's the Joker because that's what he calls himself.I guess I stopped believing in the Batman moniker more than a heavilly-armed ninja because of the focus on making realistic, maybe that's why I really liked the Sonar system. That's something I do imagine Batman would make (indeed, he did make Brother Eye in the comics).
Anyways I'm rambling. I loved the movie (twice so far
), so I really really should stop making a big deal out of it. :lolSaw TDK again this evening, and my god, it was still awesome. This Joker keeps me coming back for more. Anyway, what is all this nagging about Johnny Depp? For me personally, part of the Joker magic to me was that I knew very little about Heath Ledger, before TDK. I knew he had a big role in Brokeback Mountain, but I never saw that movie. Like someone else in this thread said: casting Depp for a role would be too obvious, and would certainly take some of the immersion away. I bet there are enough actors out there, besides Depp, who can make a good villain, as long as they delve deep into the character, and become that character. Fucking hell, Ledger is awesome. Can't say it enough. First there's the pencil magic trick, and right after he pulls open his jacket, with this cord attached from his thumb to a supply of grenades. Awesome as hell. Best movie villain ever. EVER.
altaz said:
See examples like this are the reasons why I didn't like the movie. Everyone hyped it as the thinking mans super hero movie. Dark, arty. But in fact it's just a plain action movie with typical scenes of violent splendor. Great if you're into that (which most people in this thread obviously are). But I'm not, and came away very disappointed.
I'm not ignorant. It's a movie based on a comic book. It's never going to be high art or even something to think about and study. I've never liked super hero movies (except for the original Super Man movies when I was a kid). But the way this movie was hyped I thought it would be different. It wasn't. That's the root of my issues with the film.
Mar_ said:
I couldn't disagree with you more. Ok, the 180 turn is a bit too much if you ask me, but the pencil trick... My god, that pencil trick is such genius writing. It immediately shows what the Joker is. Technically, it's a real well written scene. No one expects it, and it such a good characterisation. Also, it's just not a plain action movie. The ending to TDK proves that alone. It's a shame you didn't enjoy this movie. I wonder what you think is a good movie. Give me an example.
Hellsing321
Member
Shitty job using a touch pad but I had to do it.effzee said:
Darko said:
Hey man, I'm just trying to put forward a view point here. This is a thread discussing the movie, not a thread expecting people to only talk if they loved it. I'm sure many people have posted a lot more than me saying how much they like it. Yet no one says "we get it, you liked the movie" now did they?
Tr4nce said:
You could start with my avatar
.Greatness Gone
Member
Mar is pretty much right. Except for the part about it not being something to think about. There was quite a bit of symbolism between Batman and the Joker.Darko said:
I still liked the movie though.
You mean 'The Departed'? Yeah, I liked that movie also, but it surely has it flaws. Especially compared to the Asian version. I just think that if you didn't enjoy TDK, you will never ever appreciate another 'superhero movie' in your life again. The way Nolan maturised (is that even a word? I'm sorry I'm Dutch) the Batman franchise is just amazing. Darkness, and matureness. Keywords. TDK = amazing.
Nazgul_Hunter
Member
Combining two awesome things at once.
Greatness Gone said:
You are correct of course. My words were too simplistic. My wife who teaches year 12 english and drama found the movie quite disturbing. Not to go into too much detail about her critical analysis. But she certainly saw a number of messages in the film that were worth talking and thinking about. I just meant - and as I've said elsewhere - that the movie was hyped to be much different to how I expected.
Edit:
I guess I should make it clear. She didn't find it disturbing in a 'violent scenes people dying' way. But in the way it gives a message that it's ok for corporate America to invade the publics privacy, even just once, if it's to save us from the anarchy and chaos of the world.
It's her job to deconstruct movies and books. So she always picks up on stuff that I don't. Her analysis of the movie being a product of the post 9/11 world where government and corporations (Dent, Batman) should have ultimate power when confronted with free thinking or chaotic behaviour (the Joker) was quite interesting.
You have your opinion. I'm not much of one to talk due to my enjoyment in finer cinema. However in the last several years comic books have been making the transition to something much different. Nolan's films while still at heart are "generic action films" I think have made more strides and added more substance than any of the other films of its type.Mar_ said:
Do I think everyone will appreciate this film in the same regards? No.
Do I think more people will accept this film more so than previous comic films? Yes.
Will this be my favorite film of the year? Uncertain. However right not it sure as hell is.
My favorite film of all time is Seven Samurai. From a few of the books I have read about the film, Kurosawa intended the film to be an action film of sorts. Of course in 1954 there wasn't the same genre there is today by any means. Everyday on the set, demanding more and more water for the action sequences to the point it was flooding. At that time I don't believe anyone was saying "Oh, he is making a big budget action film". To this day people still don't consider it one at all without thinking much about it after their first viewing due to all of the different elements added to the film. The other elements involve the characters and the relationships they bring to the film where your so engrossed with there presence that the amazing actions sequences seem like second nature and real to the viewer. My point his while I'm not trying to compare the two films directly, the intent from the filmmakers are very similar as well as the outcome. He fleshed out all the important characters enough so when his over the top/non-computerized actions sequences arrived it didn't feel like I left his universe and was just sitting in my seat watching the film as so often I feel like watching modern action/comic book films.
MisterHero
Super Member
maybe I'm decrying TDK for lack of fantasy because I'm still on a Speed Racer buzz
Darko
Member
Mar_ said:
The movie is actually quite deep, most of it you wont catch in the first viewing. First of all the dog symbolism
-First scene, criminal looks up at bat signal, "thats why we bring dogs", this relates back to first movie when Gordon talks about escalation "we get bullet proof vests, they use armor piercing rounds), the scene in the makeshift batcave you can see dog bites (I assume) all over his body, Batman is forced to upgrade his suit.
-Joker: Im just a dog chasing cars I wouldnt know what to do if I caught one (explains his change of heart about wanting batman to reveal himself/dead, as soon as he was face to face with him he had a change of heart after wanting him dead all this time "kill the batman")
-Joker: How about we cut you up into pieces and feed you to your pouches and then we'll see how loyal a hungry dog really is. Biting the hand that feeds if you will. (relates to a quote hes says later in the film "when the chips are down these so called 'civilized' people will eat eachother", which is the whole basis of his experiment with the ferries)
-Two-Face: "The Joker's just a mad dog. I want whoever let him off the leash." (Batman is the housebroken dog who plays by the rules, Joker is the one who keeps temping him to break free of his one rule "i want you do it, hit me", him laughing as hes about to fall to his death, all relate back to this. Joker being is stray mad dog , has no rules/no limits, In the last scene with the joker batman finally puts him on his leesh.
and of course the whole parralell between Joker/ Batman. And more symbolizm Joker (absolute evil), Batman (absolute good) and Dent being somewhere inbetween, 'chance'. Which has been explained in the thread earlier.
Darko said:
excellent post but i believe his disappointment stems from the reviews. it is true that if you solely read the reviews and did not know much about batman going in you might think it is going to be one thing and it turns out to be another. some reviews make it sound like its not a comic book movie. when in fact it really is a comic book movie. it is so much a comic book movie that it really truly captures the art, the vision, and ideas presented in comic books.
even i have to admit some reviews had me fooled. but for me it worked in the opposite way. i was pleasantly surprised when i watched it and realized OMG YES THIS IS THE BATMAN MOVIE! some reviews had me worried that it was a crime drama which happened to have Batman characters.
That is probably why I didn't think so highly of the film. Too many reviews were comparing it to some serious crime action thrillers which led me to believe that this movie would be much different but at its heart it was a comic book film done exceptionally well. If I see it again with a different mindset I'm sure I will begin to appreciate it more.
I would also like to add the theme of chance and chaos are essentially one and the same thing which makes the Joker and Harvey so similar. After all relying on chance is like relying on chaos, "and you want to know about chaos? It's fair"
The Joker talking to Dent in the hospital was probably the best scene for me regarding Joker. Showed that despite his chaotic nature there was some method to his madness.
The second scene for me is when Joker is in the prison cell trying to entice the guard to attack him, we really dive in his mind.
Christopher
BDE (Big Dad Energy)
AniHawk said:
you should have let dent flip the coin and then have the gun shot ;p - good idea though.
The Blue Jihad
Member
Mar_ said:
I'll drink to this. Discussion should include both positive and negative.
Masked Man
I said wow
Shins said:
True. But making fun of Heath Ledger =! making fun of Heath Ledger as The Joker.
Mar_ said:
I'm not typically an "action movie guy"--my favorite movie for a long time was Little Miss Sunshine, and Atonement was another immediate favorite. I'm not disenchanted with superhero films in general, but I don't orgasm at every trailer I see that's remotely hero-related, either. I'm a huge Batman fan, however: not for the action, but for the characters. Likewise, I appreciate this film not for its action sequences (were there really that many?), but for the philosophical discourse and the utterly human characters that the writers have fleshed out.
But maybe that's just me.
[insert:awesome:]
Christopher
BDE (Big Dad Energy)
Masked Man said:
Ledger abused persciption pills and overdosed - he was awesome as the joker, but fucked up in life; get over it.
Masked Man
I said wow
Christopher said:
Accidental overdose =! abuse
And kudos to Darko for pulling out the dog symbolism. Very nice. Although I would argue with you about Batman as "absolute good": we--the audience--know that such is the case, but the society in which he lives (Gotham) sees him as morally ambiguous, especially with these five murders hanging over his head now. The concept of a masked vigilante who (allegedly) holds himself above the law doesn't really sit well with the plebs.
Masked Man said:Accidental overdose =! abuse
And kudos to Darko for pulling out the dog symbolism. Very nice. Although I would argue with you about Batman as "absolute good": we--the audience--know that such is the case, but the society in which he lives (Gotham) sees him as morally ambiguous, especially with these five murders hanging over his head now. The concept of a masked vigilante who (allegedly) holds himself above the law doesn't really sit well with the plebs.
Just for the record, according to my neoGAF encyclopedia of historic posts it was me so grant who first articulated in detail the extensive dog symbolism in the film.
Masked Man
I said wow
Amir0x said:
What a useful little tool. Britannica, eat your heart out.
Thanks, though. Guess I didn't see that one. I'll just offer a collective "kudos," then.
Darko
Member
Masked Man said:Accidental overdose =! abuse
And kudos to Darko for pulling out the dog symbolism. Very nice. Although I would argue with you about Batman as "absolute good": we--the audience--know that such is the case, but the society in which he lives (Gotham) sees him as morally ambiguous, especially with these five murders hanging over his head now. The concept of a masked vigilante who (allegedly) holds himself above the law doesn't really sit well with the plebs.
I wasn't the first its been discussed in the thread thoroughly, just compiled what I gathered from seeing the film multiple times
. Johnathan Nolan is quite a genius.Anyway, another link for this, since Darko asked for it.:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3269745782817433560&hl=en
I don't think it came across the way I wanted it.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3269745782817433560&hl=en
Christopher said:
I don't think it came across the way I wanted it.
I think ending the movie here would be incredibly dissatisfying. That's why I cut him off mid-word.
itsinmyveins
Gets to pilot the crappy patrol labors
I saw the movie earlier today. Better than I thought it'd be.
Masked Man
I said wow
Darko: LOVE the avatar.
I just read through a thread about a girl who couldn't take a picture without leaving her mouth open, and she looked incredibly similar to the beloved :awesome:.
I just read through a thread about a girl who couldn't take a picture without leaving her mouth open, and she looked incredibly similar to the beloved :awesome:.
Mar_ said:
You're so caught up in the notion that it's a "comic book movie" and that as such it could never be "high art" that you could never have possibly enjoyed it. And that's really your problem, not the movie's.
"I would suggest that it's not the medium, but the quality of perception and expression, that determines the significance of art."
- Bill Watterson
Mar_ said:
There's not much to think about. You may have misunderstood what the people who said that really meant.
Compared to the stock comic book movie, even the well made big budget ones, The Dark Knight is much more than just the amorphous good vs. evil, with a bunch of punching and shoving and stuff blowing up.
In fact, the biggest explosion in the movie was not in an action sequence at all, it was setting up to show the audience just how horrific the Joker's insanity truly is.
What I like about TDK is that the villains aren't out to rule the world. Heck, even Bagins had Raz Al Ghul (sp) with the usual stock global plan to do this or that. The Joker was simply a psychopath out to cause havock.
That that in itself wasn't enough. There are many examples of psychopathic villains, but their ploy usually involves some sort of large apparatus hidden away in a secret lair which the super hero could conveniently invade and destroy before millions in the city are wiped out.
In TDK Batman was fighting for every single life. The few hundred hostages he held in one for or another in the movie meant so much more than the theoretical abstract millions that are often in the firing line of comic book villains. I thought the use of contemporary techniques of terrorism and tying it to the joker (the filming of hostage videos and execution of the hostage) was brilliant.
Christopher
BDE (Big Dad Energy)
I thought this movie was going to be bad too, because I only saw Batman Begins when it was on Blu Ray - and I loved it. Still though, I didn't think the movie would meet the hype that DMCzaf and other gaffers hyped it to be...perhaps it was my limited knowledge of the film, or that I only saw like 1 trailer from it - but this was the first thing that was hyped on GAF that I actuallyed loved.
...that being said stay away from the gaming side when it comes to GAF hype.
Also Wall-E wasn't as good as you guys hyped it to be.
...that being said stay away from the gaming side when it comes to GAF hype.
Also Wall-E wasn't as good as you guys hyped it to be.
CajoleJuice
Member
I'm guessing you haven't watched Arrested Development.Christopher said:
Masked Man
I said wow
Whoever keeps posting those on Superhero Hype needs to keep it up because I love him/her.
(I'm glad that you loved TDK, though.)
Christopher said:
(I'm glad that you loved TDK, though.)
Let's face it very few movies are really all that deep. What makes a movie appear as deep and intelligent is a script and performance that make you, the viewer, read into the world and characters see things that are, in the film, not clearly presented to you. A good film can make people go far beyond the intentions of the writers or actors in debating and drawing symbolism.
I think the Dark Knight does this. In my opinion, some people are suffering a little from "it's a comic book movie, and I'm not going to go in with the same mindset as a "serious crime thriller", and that's really hurting their appreciation of the film.
I think the Dark Knight does this. In my opinion, some people are suffering a little from "it's a comic book movie, and I'm not going to go in with the same mindset as a "serious crime thriller", and that's really hurting their appreciation of the film.
Rabid Wolverine
Member
DMczaf said:
Awesome shot. Dissapointed that Part from the Wizard Trailer was cut from the movie.
Looks to be outside the Police Station.
Could be Batman taking a shortcut out the window, over the cars, and onto the BatPod for Rachel.
Blu-Ray Extended/Deleted plz
Just seeing those few photos makes me want to go and watch it again. TDK was awesome in so many ways. Yes, Ledger stole the show but Eckhart was very good and the film has Morgan Freeman and Michael Caine has support actors...the only other comic book film with that kind of strong acting talent is X-Men
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