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[borghe]

my thoughts on Zeppelin stand. And understand that I love Zep, but they were a direct result of the stones, etc. Yes they formed in 1968, but when they formed Plant was like 20 years old and page was 24.. so when the who was hitting it big they were very impressionable only like 17-20 years old. when the stones busted on to the scene they were like 14-19 years old. British lads entering their teens with beatlemania at an all time high, how could they not be influenced?

Zeppelin helped define arena rock, don't get me wrong (or cock rock as others have said). But rock and roll was established quite some time before they hit the scene.

 

[White Man]

Guys like White Man just need to mature a little bit, then he should be good to go.

I'm just highly critical, even when it comes to things I like. I have a pretty giant music collection. There's nothing wrong with good things having flaws. I think that recognizing and understanding the flaws in good things is imperative to really understanding and appreciating them

But note that I don't actually like the bands I've mentioned in this thread. Extra emphasis on Zep.

I do love The Rolling Stones (up til 1972, pluse Some Girls, and the new album is pretty shockingly decent) and the Kinks, but in general I don't think pop music as a medium really hit its stride until the early 70s.

 

[boutrosinit]

I pray every night that Paul McCartney gets cancer. He's the worst thing to happen to society since the black plague.

I love you!

Here is an image I made for you.

 

[Callo Merlose]

heh, axl's being greater than Dylans. Kids these days.

 

[borghe]

heh, axl's being greater than Dylans. Kids these days.

dylan is a genius songwriter but an overrated performer. Any Dylan cover I think is by default better than the original.

 

[Flynn]

And lests you forget, between the beatles, rolling stones, and elvis, they were pretty much the driving force behind the invetion of modern rock and roll


end of discussion.

So it was all white guys that invented rock and roll?

 

[Crag Dweller]

And lests you forget, between the beatles, rolling stones, and elvis, they were pretty much the driving force behind the invetion of modern rock and roll

What Was That?

 

[borghe]

I specifically said modern rock and roll. many rockers, including white ones I didn't mention, ended up leading more to some of the rock offshoots or non-rock genres or simply didn;t play as heavily an influence.

though the omission of chuck berry is regrettable. I only included elvis because he was the predominant lead in the US. The focus was mainly on Beatles and Stones because of the british invasion and the topic specifically targetting Sir Paul.

 

[Crag Dweller]

I was just messing around, I understood what you were getting at.

 

[Mama Smurf]

White Man digs up dead people.

The Paul McCartney shit is fucking nothing!

 

[CaptainABAB]

Axl is my favorite singer of all time, so he gets the nod. And yes, I prefer GNR covers over the originals in most cases.

 

[Shinobi]

Is there a reason why Britian fucking OWNED the US for rock music in the 60's and 70's? It's absolutely stunning how many rock acts came out during that time and owned the scene...

The Beatles
The Rolling Stones
The Who
Led Zeppelin
Queen
Elton John
Pink Floyd
Deep Purple
Black Sabbath

For individual artists I think the US was way ahead, but for bands the UK just ripped shit up. I'd love to know why this was the case. Or maybe I'm just wildly misinformed, in which case feel free to correct my ass.

BTW, as far as Zeppelin goes I think they had a direct influence on groups like Heart, GNR and Van Halen. But there's no doubt the Beatles are the most influential music act of all time, even though I care for little of what they've done (the stuff I do care for is damn good though).

 

[Lemurnator]

It is called showing respect. He respects the bands that were influenced by the beatles. Someone comes in and says "We grew up on this shit." you can be modest or an ass. He acknowledges it but never do I see him being a prick about it. And lests you forget, between the beatles, rolling stones, and elvis, they were pretty much the driving force behind the invetion of modern rock and roll


end of discussion.

Not end of discussion. You said the Beatles and the Stones were pretty much the driving force behind the invention of modern rock and roll, while that is a very incomplete list the inclusion of Elvis leads me to think that you mean Rock and Roll in general and not just intelligent songwriting and advanced progressions in rock and roll.

If that's the case add Fats Domino, Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Bo Diddley, and Buddy Holly to that list.

If it's not the case please remove Elvis because he has no place in your list and replace him with Bob Dylan and add the Velvet Underground and The Who.

Watch Paul McCartney in Red Square. Count how many times the Beatles and Paul McCartney are mentioned but everyone else is not.

 

[Lemurnator]

my thoughts on Zeppelin stand. And understand that I love Zep, but they were a direct result of the stones, etc. Yes they formed in 1968, but when they formed Plant was like 20 years old and page was 24.. so when the who was hitting it big they were very impressionable only like 17-20 years old. when the stones busted on to the scene they were like 14-19 years old. British lads entering their teens with beatlemania at an all time high, how could they not be influenced?

Zeppelin helped define arena rock, don't get me wrong (or cock rock as others have said). But rock and roll was established quite some time before they hit the scene.

I won't go as far as to call you an idiot... but...

They were the direct result of several blues artists and The Yardbirds.

They would have done a lot more Stones covers than Otis Redding, Howlin' Wolf, and Muddy Waters covers if they were that influenced by them. Zeppelin didn't define arena rock, Zeppelin helped to define hard rock and metal with blues influences coming out the wazoo.

 

[Crag Dweller]

Is there a reason why Britian fucking OWNED the US for rock music in the 60's and 70's? It's absolutely stunning how many rock acts came out during that time and owned the scene...

The Beatles
The Rolling Stones
The Who
Led Zeppelin
Queen
Elton John
Pink Floyd
Deep Purple
Black Sabbath

For individual artists I think the US was way ahead, but for bands the UK just ripped shit up. I'd love to know why this was the case. Or maybe I'm just wildly misinformed, in which case feel free to correct my ass.

I don't think you are misinformed, maybe you are just overlooking what was coming out of the U.S. at the time.

Jefferson Airplane
The Byrds
Buffalo Springfield
Credence Clearwater Revivial
The Doors
The Band
The Grateful Dead
The Beach Boys

Not to mention all the great music coming out of Motown at the time.

 

[Matlock]

 

[White Man]

But there's no doubt the Beatles are the most influential music act of all time, even though I care for little of what they've done (the stuff I do care for is damn good though).

I think if you look at the musical landscape of the past 25 years, you'll see that Kraftwerk could be seen as just as influential, albeit less directly.

 

[Shinobi]

I don't think you are misinformed, maybe you are just overlooking what was coming out of the U.S. at the time.

Jefferson Airplane
The Byrds
Buffalo Springfield
Credence Clearwater Revivial
The Doors
The Band
The Grateful Dead
The Beach Boys

Not to mention all the great music coming out of Motown at the time.

Oh I remembered most of those guys (and if Canadian acts are included I imagine Crosby Nash Stills and Young would be right up there), but it just appears to me that the British bands were a lot bigger and more influential overall, not to discount what the US bands did.

 

[Crag Dweller]

I think if you look at the musical landscape of the past 25 years, you'll see that Kraftwerk could be seen as just as influential, albeit less directly.

Hmm, thats interesting. Care to expand on that a bit?

 

[Crag Dweller]

Oh I remembered most of those guys (and if Canadian acts are included I imagine Crosby Nash Stills and Young would be right up there), but it just appears to me that the British bands were a lot bigger and more influential overall, not to discount what the US bands did.

I didn't include CSN&Y because they were formed from two of the bands that I mentioned plus The Hollies. I understand your point and would agree that they had more of an impact overall, at least in regards to how we perceive what a "rock group" is today.

 

[White Man]

Hmm, thats interesting. Care to expand on that a bit?

They popularized the use of sampling, electronic elements, and synthesizers in pop music. They also placed an emphasis on studio usage and production techniques. Afrika Bambaataa was listening to Kraftwerk when he wrote Planet Rock, which ushered in an era of electronic-tinged hip-hop with then-unheard of production values.

 

[Crag Dweller]

They popularized the use of sampling, electronic elements, and synthesizers in pop music. They also placed an emphasis on studio usage and production techniques. Afrika Bambaataa was listening to Kraftwerk when he wrote Planet Rock, which ushered in an era of electronic-tinged hip-hop with then-unheard of production values.

Ahh, I see your point. I can agree with that statement.

 

[Spruce Moose]

I think Devo beat them to it, but whatever.

 

[Crag Dweller]

I think Devo beat them to it, but whatever.

I think Kraftwerk predates Devo by six or seven years. White Man probably has better info than me though.

 

[Matlock]

I think Kraftwerk predates Devo by six or seven years. White Man probably has better info than me though.

Two years, actually. Devo formed in '72 while Kraftwerk did in '70.

iirc Devo started forming in '70, right after May 4 in Kent.

 

[Crag Dweller]

But Devo's first album didn't come out till 1977. Kraftwerk put their first album out in 1970.

 

[Boogie9IGN]

For individual artists I think the US was way ahead, but for bands the UK just ripped shit up. I'd love to know why this was the case. Or maybe I'm just wildly misinformed, in which case feel free to correct my ass.

But but, we had the Monkees!

lol, yeah right)

 

[MIMIC]

"It's a tie, you BOTH lose." </Geoffrey>

 

[Matlock]

But Devo's first album didn't come out till 1977. Kraftwerk put their first album out in 1970.

I barely see how that matters in the grand scheme of things--if they were making music (and they were!) for commercial use, it still counts.

 

[White Man]

I think Devo beat them to it, but whatever.

Also: Devo's first album was produced by Brian Eno, who collaborated with Bowie on the Kraftwerk-inspired Low.

EDIT: Actually, upon moving to Berlin, Bowie tried to get Kraftwerk to work with him.

 

[Shikamaru Ninja]

Axl Rose BLOWS AWAY Paul McCartney's Live and Let Die attempt. By the way, anyone ever hear Axl with Tom Petty doing In To The Great Wide Open. wow.

 

[Matlock]

But Devo's first album didn't come out till 1977. Kraftwerk put their first album out in 1970.

Another clarification: the band formed in 1972 (just confirmed), and their first video (Jocko homo) was filmed in '75 in the Kent State Governance Chambers.

Axl Rose BLOWS AWAY Paul McCartney's Live and Let Die attempt. By the way, anyone ever hear Axl with Tom Petty doing In To The Great Wide Open. wow.

I would enjoy hearing that.

 

[White Man]

http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~lapierrs/creative/kraftwerk/references.html

Scroll down a bit for the influences section.

 

[Spruce Moose]

Opps. I wasn't sure which came first. When I was a kid, I loved Devo and wasn't aware of Kraftwerk so I just assumed Devo came first. Sorry.

 

[Prospero]

http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~lapierrs/creative/kraftwerk/references.html

Scroll down a bit for the influences section.

David Bowie was left off that list, which is a big omission--he's said that the sound of those albums from '76-'80 were influenced by Kraftwerk's sound.

Oh, and back to McCartney--to be fair, not everything he does is gold, and McCartney's Liverpool Oratorio is garbage. I remember buying it, listening to it once, and then taking it to my local secondhand CD shop and trying to trade it in--the guy behind the counter laughed at me, then said, "Ah, what the hell--I guess I can pass this off to some other sucker."

 

[Crag Dweller]

I barely see how that matters in the grand scheme of things--if they were making music (and they were!) for commercial use, it still counts.

The whole point was how Kraftwerk influenced the industry in the way that White Man described. Spruce Moose contended that Devo was first in that regard. It would be hard to be the first to influence the industry if Kraftwerk was recording albums 7 years before Devo. Devo wasn't an influence playing clubs in Akron in 1972.

 

[Spruce Moose]

Yeah... I fucked up.

 

[Shinobi]

But but, we had the Monkees!

lol, yeah right)

:lol

 

[Matlock]

http://www.cuug.ab.ca/~lapierrs/creative/kraftwerk/references.html

Scroll down a bit for the influences section.

ARTIST: Devo
According to Rob Holman, this group was originally started as a sort of Kraftwerk spoof. Apparently the cover of their album Freedon of Choice is a reference to the cover of The Man Machine.

----
And my source (print mag, not online sadly)! Abridged a bit for bullshit and adding references.

"I was decordating the studio when there were police cars going down the street with megaphones going, "The school is shut down. The city is shut down. Please go to your homes.," Mothersbaugh says.

From that day on, Casale became a determined man. Mothersbaugh, Casale and Bob Lewis had previously played with ideas of de-evolution*. But now things had changed, Casale had witnessed first-hand what he considered to be mankind moving backward instead of forward (May 4, 1970, Kent State), and he felt compelled to find a creative outlet to spread the message.

"We had all these theories of de-evolution, and then it became 'Well, what would de-evolutionary music sound like?' That's how we started making Devo music," he says. I think if I hadn't found a creative way to respond to it through Devo, which addressed this new dystopia that I found myself in, I think I would have turned homicidal. That radicalized me."

really abridged part

*The name Devo comes from the concept of de-evolution, or the idea that human beings are de-evolving rather than evolving. The band embraced the concept after reading the book The Beginning Was the End: Knowledge Can Be Eaten, about humans evolving from cannibalistic apes.

Mark Mothersbaugh once referred to their song "Jocko Homo" as "the whole theme song for the theory of de-evolution and for Devo." It's name after "Jocko Homo, Heaven Bound King of the Apes," a religious pamphlet discrediting evolution Mothersbaugh received while at Kent State.

The band asks the question "Are We Not Men?" a reference to the 1933 film Island of Lost Souls, which was based upon HG Wells' Island of Dr. Moreau.

======

The whole point was how Kraftwerk influenced the industry in the way that White Man described. Spruce Moose contended that Devo was first in that regard. It would be hard to be the first to influence the industry if Kraftwerk was recording albums 7 years before Devo. Devo wasn't an influence playing clubs in Akron in 1972.

Point taken, but I was questioning more the "who did what" part more than the "who inspired who."

======

edit: the David Bowie connection:

David Bowie and Iggy Pop saw Devo's "The Truth About De-Evolution" at the Ann Arbor film festival in 1976, and were both huge fans of it.

 

[Substance]

Oh, and back to McCartney--to be fair, not everything he does is gold, and McCartney's Liverpool Oratorio is garbage.

It's clear McCartney didn't care much about quality control in his solo work following the Beatles, and that throwaway approach characterizes his first two records McCartney, and Ram. However those albums have aged very well, and I've always pictured the loose, and wierd homemade aesthetic as precursor to some of that low-fi indie stuff. I haven't listened to that much, but there are hidden gems in his catalogue, and to provide a relevant example to the thread(Kraftwerk), for every, ahem, 'Temporary Secretary', there's something amazing like 'Secret Friend'.
Though he is slowly regaining his credibility after some truly mediocre albums, and perhaps it would be better to lay down what people think of Paul's latest Nigel Godrich produced, 'Chaos and Creation', on an established thread.

 

[snaildog]

I don't think you are misinformed, maybe you are just overlooking what was coming out of the U.S. at the time.

Jefferson Airplane
The Byrds
Buffalo Springfield
Credence Clearwater Revivial
The Doors
The Band
The Grateful Dead
The Beach Boys

Not to mention all the great music coming out of Motown at the time.

None of those bands are nearly as big as British ones though, which was his point. The Beach Boys is the only band out of them that's really stood the test of time (IMO), along with The Beatles, Queen, Led, Stones, Pink Floyd etc.

But but, we had the Monkees!

(, yeah right)

:lol One of my darkest secrets is that I listen to their greatest hits quite often. I know they weren't a real band, completely commercial etc etc, but some of their songs are awesome. Daydream Believer, Words, the theme song, I'm a Believer, Randy Scouse Git, Goin' Down, It's Nice To Be With You.

 

[tt_deeb]

Although we're getting really off-topic here I have to ask about King Crimson. They have got to be a big influence to modern music as well, right? I can't believe some of the things I've heard Fripp conjure up for his time period. Not to mention Fripp and Eno are like buddy buddy, right?

 

[Crag Dweller]

None of those bands are nearly as big as British ones though, which was his point.

How would you qualify that though? All the bands that we both listed would be considered big in their time. Don't get me wrong, the british invasion was a huge influence on rock, and was something completely different than what their american counterparts were bringing to the table at the time. However, the u.s. bands at that time were, in my mind equally influencial in how music has evolved over the years.

 

[White Man]

Although we're getting really off-topic here I have to ask about King Crimson. They have got to be a big influence to modern music as well, right? I can't believe some of the things I've heard Fripp conjure up for his time period. Not to mention Fripp and Eno are like buddy buddy, right?

Very much so. They frequently collaborated in the 70s. Fripp was Eno's guitarist on Here Come the Warm Jets. He also appears on Another Green World and Before and After Sceince. Fripp also does some awesome guitar work on Heroes and Lodger. Eno's groundbreaking guitar effect is named in Fripp's honor. They also did the album No Pussyfooting together, but I've never heard that one.

Eno shared a similar working relationship with Bowie, David Byrne, and U2.

 

[Mermandala]

this thread is K K K - all the way!

Kinks
King Crimson
Kraftwerk

*sets giant "K" aflame on Paul McCartney's palatial estate*

(whose inside getting paid to eat vegetables on record)

 

[Spruce Moose]

Fripp has also influenced and collaborated with Andy Summers (guitarist for The Police) and has worked with Peter Gabriel. I think it's him that's playing on Solsbury Hill.

 

[mattiewheels]

fripp's one of my most favorite guitarists, and i haven't even heard his solo albums, just the stuff he did with eno and bowie. he's definitely the most creative guitarist i've ever heard. his solos are a beauty to behold.

 

[RevenantKioku]

This got me thinking about covers, and by far Rick Wakeman's rendition of Eleanor Rigby is one of the best things ever created.

 

[Atari2600]

I probably know more people that died of cancer than you do. And I'm sure most of them would approve of my comments.

Yes, I am sure most people you know that died of cancer would be pumped to hear you wishing a painful death on someone who does more for charity in a month than you will your entire life.

 

[MaverickX9]

For those saying McCartney is useless...I just saw him in concert on Saturday night.

BEST CONCERT EVER

He played non-stop for 3 hours. Played 37 songs. Told all kinds of great stories.

Seriously, whether you like him as a person or not - SEE HIM IN CONCERT.