Nexus Zero
Member
At least in terms of trust with the future of this planet and alignment to political ideology:
Europe > United States > India >> Russia >>> China
The European Century? The European Superpower?
- Thread starter Proelite
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At least in terms of trust with the future of this planet and alignment to political ideology:
Europe > United States > India >> Russia >>> China
If you're gonna talk about uniting an entire continent. Having it be about just Canada and the US seems weird. Because even if Mexico wouldn't fit the requirements just right away, I'd say it should be an eventual goal for them to join up if you want to actually work on a North-American union. Which this organization/guy is obviously notTakeda Kenshi said:
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Proelite
Member
http://www.captaineuro.com/Teh Hamburglar said:
We could be, which is why it is so sad that Ireland voted against it. EU really is do or die and Swiss and Norway doing good while not being a member makes other countries frown and ponder.
Still, with the cultural and language differences, it would be hard, but in 50 years, I daresay we are that much closer to being a true Union.
Still, with the cultural and language differences, it would be hard, but in 50 years, I daresay we are that much closer to being a true Union.
AndersTheSwede
Member
Europe won't be a superpower. Why? :
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/13/AR2008061302639.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/13/AR2008061302639.html
Souldriver
Member
Yeah, I know it wasn't a superpower. I was just trying to list a few countries who had imperial power in the 19th century. Spain would've been a better example, because they actually had a world empire, not just one (far to big for a too little) country.Kabouter said:
Either way, my point still stands. I'd rather have a superpower which is military irrelevant and politically (mostly) neutral. Some would argue that this doesn't fit the "superpower" definition though. But in that case, I just don't want any superpower at all, except for a global one like the UN.
The EU will not be a military power. That is not what it was founded on. The basis for the EU was the end of all conflict between Western European nations after thousands of years of war. That is still the basic tenet behind the union and will last forever (hopefully).
European values are based on securlarism, and centrist left leaning policies.
Freedom of movement of people and capital is amazing and the world should be like this.
European values are based on securlarism, and centrist left leaning policies.
Freedom of movement of people and capital is amazing and the world should be like this.
Nexus Zero
Member
Evander said:
None of us got Wario Ware Twisted, put it that way.
In matters of trade they have the right to follow EU rulings or leave. Their sovereignty lies in that choice, not in the formulation of every EU law or ruling. They have the right to propose candidates for the EU's executive, and Parliament and the Council of Ministers play a legislative role... but these are all Union institutions.Evander said:
Escape Goat
Member
Proelite said:
lawl!
Herpes Reasons
Banned
oh snaps, son. the beast of revelation.
Sir Fragula said:
What about in matters other than trade?
How often does a memberstate have the power/ability to simply choose not to follow a decision of the EU?
Is Britain considered a full member? I know that they don't use the Euro, which seems somewhat significant as a measure of the power of the entire system if they are.
I am a convinced supported of a unified Europe, but there should be very deep reforms if we want the Union to become a legit superpower. We need:
1- Principles. It might sound naive, but it is not. People do not want to fight, work, pay or die for an abstract political interest. We need to define who we, the people of Europe, are, and what do we agree at. We should define our values, and ingrain them in our constitution and demand them to the countries that wants to be a part of the Union. In my opinion, the EU should be about democracy and liberty as the US is, but also we should add our own European values of Equality (our sociodemocratic favour that we are losing with crap like passing the 65 hour bill) and identity (you can be Moldavian and Eurpean, you do not have to rennounce to your heritage).
2- Symbols, emotions, an "ethos". Yes, we apparently have them already, but not, really. As I said before, we need to make people involved and concerned about the European Union. They must feel it, and love it, not only just obey their laws and pay their taxes. They must be concerned about it. We have a rich, common history. Rescue the symbols that unite us instead of create them artificially. I know that traditionally, the ones that have tried to unify europe have been hated in one way or another, but there are historical pan - european institutions that have been universally praised (think Templar Knights or Erasmus).
3- A way more direct democracy, and political reforms. Period. The EU should be more related to its citizens. Open lists, a fair system of votation, and a more direct decision taking process, as well as a recognizable leader and an unified voice in the world.
4 - A common language. Sorry, but to traduce everything to thousand different languages is costly and a waste of time and a logistic nightmare for any coordinated operation, let it be economic or militar. We should define a common language (english if we are practic, latin if we are political), and make its teaching mandatory in the schools.
5- More common, supra national institutions that have traditionally depended from the national goverments: we need an unified european army, bank, intelligence service... and an education and social security system. It would not only save ginormous amounts of cash by economy of scale, but it will also give real power to the European council and help to build a common identity.
Unless we make these things, we are going to be stuck into a mish-mash of warring little states waiting to be devoured by Chinese and American enterprises, Greece VS Rome stlye.
PS: I am Spanish, and I think that it is about time we all give up our retarded, childish nationalism in the name of the common good.
1- Principles. It might sound naive, but it is not. People do not want to fight, work, pay or die for an abstract political interest. We need to define who we, the people of Europe, are, and what do we agree at. We should define our values, and ingrain them in our constitution and demand them to the countries that wants to be a part of the Union. In my opinion, the EU should be about democracy and liberty as the US is, but also we should add our own European values of Equality (our sociodemocratic favour that we are losing with crap like passing the 65 hour bill) and identity (you can be Moldavian and Eurpean, you do not have to rennounce to your heritage).
2- Symbols, emotions, an "ethos". Yes, we apparently have them already, but not, really. As I said before, we need to make people involved and concerned about the European Union. They must feel it, and love it, not only just obey their laws and pay their taxes. They must be concerned about it. We have a rich, common history. Rescue the symbols that unite us instead of create them artificially. I know that traditionally, the ones that have tried to unify europe have been hated in one way or another, but there are historical pan - european institutions that have been universally praised (think Templar Knights or Erasmus).
3- A way more direct democracy, and political reforms. Period. The EU should be more related to its citizens. Open lists, a fair system of votation, and a more direct decision taking process, as well as a recognizable leader and an unified voice in the world.
4 - A common language. Sorry, but to traduce everything to thousand different languages is costly and a waste of time and a logistic nightmare for any coordinated operation, let it be economic or militar. We should define a common language (english if we are practic, latin if we are political), and make its teaching mandatory in the schools.
5- More common, supra national institutions that have traditionally depended from the national goverments: we need an unified european army, bank, intelligence service... and an education and social security system. It would not only save ginormous amounts of cash by economy of scale, but it will also give real power to the European council and help to build a common identity.
Unless we make these things, we are going to be stuck into a mish-mash of warring little states waiting to be devoured by Chinese and American enterprises, Greece VS Rome stlye.
PS: I am Spanish, and I think that it is about time we all give up our retarded, childish nationalism in the name of the common good.
speculawyer
Member
I was gonna post something mocking the infamous "Project for the New American Century" Neo-con a-holes . . . something like "Well it is not these guy's century, that's for sure."
But when I checked the link, all I got was:
This Account Has Been Suspended
Please contact the billing/support department as soon as possible.
:lol :lol :lol :lol
And yes, that was the correct link!!
http://www.newamericancentury.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century
WTF happened Neo-cons? :lol
But when I checked the link, all I got was:
This Account Has Been Suspended
Please contact the billing/support department as soon as possible.
:lol :lol :lol :lol
And yes, that was the correct link!!
http://www.newamericancentury.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century
WTF happened Neo-cons? :lol
speculawyer
Member
California. No question. We have like the 7th largest GDP in the world. And we've got lots of military bases, hollywood, silicon valley, etc.XiaNaphryz said:
SatelliteOfLove
Member
itxaka said:
Wouldn't that be what closes out a superpower?
Evander said:
In cases where the EU doesn't have sole right to act it becomes a game of diplomacy. If a country doesn't want something enacted badly enough it will try and offer something in return - scrap the Working Time Directive in return for CAP reform as a random example.
If all else fails the country can try and secure an opt-out, or worse case scenario... well, leave.
Membership of the Euro is only a prerequisite to membership for the 12 post-2004 accession countries. Sweden, Denmark and the UK have opt-outs, which vary in their technicalities. I believe Sweden is required to "one day" adopt the Euro, though there is no timescale.
Sir Fragula said:
That right there sounds like enough buearacracy to prevent any sort of world power from emerging. If the EU does not have the ultimate say, then unlike the USSR or the USA, they do not have true control of themselves, let alone the ability to move that power on to others.
Patrick Bateman
Member
Evander said:
LOL UN!!!
Bulgaria would be able to have a social security comparable to Germany since the scale of a Unified European social security system would bring down the costs a lot. Also, the different states should be able to add social services to the minimum standards if they want.
Laugh at history all that you want, but the EU of today is the equivalent of the ancient "unified" Greece made of alliances of different city - states. And like them, will easily fall prey to bigger, more unified competitors.
Judging from the map, obviously New Jersey. Mother Russia ftw.XiaNaphryz said:
Proelite said:
lol, but except for the British and the Roman Empire none of those come even close to superpower status. and the British Empire for all it's might was never that much ahead of other major European states.
Their sovereignty is constrained by reality. They have a choice of accepting EU law or withdrawing from the substantial benefits - that is the constraint of their freedom to act.Evander said:
You had a civil war. Last time a country left the EU - Greenland in 1985 - very little happened. There will be no more wars among present EU states. At most we'll get a commitment to acknowledge our loose confederation in a few decades, but federalism - and militant federalism at that - has no foothold.
Please, PLEASE tell me you are kidding me. Provide to the Bulgarians what is provided to the Germans, and everyone will stop working and live off of the labour of Western-Europe. Provide less to make it affordable, and people in Western-Europe, where there is insane cost of living, won't be able to live anymore. It's going to take many decades, perhaps as much as a century for European countries to come close enough economically to make anything like that even remotely feasible.Ikael said:
I have no idea what the HELL you're talking about :lol
Fall prey? Wtf? :lol
I think Russians are better soldiers than guidos though.Kapsama said:Judging from the map, obviously New Jersey. Mother Russia ftw.
Sir Fragula said:
You are ignoring my point.
Other global superpowers ahev always ultimately had the final say over their entire bodies. The actions of the USA, or USSR, or Imperial Britain, etc., were not agreed upon by every single residet, citizen, or even official within their respective borders, but the governing head still had the ultimate say.
The fact of the EU is that by allowing memberstates EVEN the freedom of leaving, the EU lacks any sort of cohesive power over the whole to force unpopular decisions, and as such, the EU simply cannot be an effective superpower.
itxaka said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Eu0BUvk4D4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JFRNqY_V9g&feature=related
Just kidding :lol
Evander said:
I don't see how that constrains Europe's influence and power. There is nothing that says a superpower must by a tyranny that refuses succession to those who demand it. There is nothing that says a super power is defined by the ability to force through unpopular decisions against the will of its constituents. Any decision made and forced through at the EU level against the protest of a significant memberstate that was important enough for that memberstate to turn down the significant benefits of membership would likely lead to internal conflict in *any* political system.
Oh and Imperial Britain was never ruled with an iron fist and will from any *one* place. Power was defused through the political élite.
MrPing1000
Member
Kabouter said:
Romans on the comeback.
I really don't see how you derive the second sentence from the first... I'm sorry but I honestly can't see your logic here.Evander said:
I don't need absolute authority over twenty-seven people in order to get them to beat you up. That's government. The UK doesn't have the de facto authority to stop Scotland from seceding - any attempted intervention from London against the wishes of the Scottish majority would fail - and yet that doesn't mean we've been unable to exert our influence outside our borders.
Sir Fragula said:
I'm not sure what you are trying to prove anymore.
I have nothing against the EU at all.
MY point is that theredo not have the ability to be a global superpower because they do not have a true unified head from which the shifting of their weight can be controlled absolutely.
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