Support NeoGAF

[Rentahamster]

I don't want to derail the moon thread, so let's have that conversation here.

I sometimes hear that morality is only possible from a belief in God and religion. While that might apply to some societies in human history, it does not apply to all of them. If God were absolutely requisite for a moral society, how can the existence of successful "godless" societies be explained? Does God just download His morality into these societies without them being aware? I find that unlikely.

A sense of right and wrong is something that most humans have even as toddlers, before any of them can even be capable of understanding what God is. Therefore, even a belief in a god or gods is not necessary for the foundation of morality. God's word is static and absolute, so why are there so many denominations of the same religion with their own takes on what is and isn't moral? Why is it that over time, our sense of morality has changed (e.g. slavery, women's rights, war, genocide, eating habits, animal husbandry, etc) whereas the instructions from God have not? That indicates to me that the main driver of what's moral is culture, not theology.

(Keep in mind this thread is not arguing about the existence of a god or gods. That's a different topic.)

 

[Soodanim]

Over the years I've narrowed it down to one main point. And as someone who's never been religious, it's ironically best known as a quote from the Bible (although it goes back farther than that).

Do to others as you would have them do to you.

That's it.

Edit:
If you want other forms of it:

"What you do not wish upon yourself, extend not to others." — Confucius (ca. 551–479 BCE)

"Neither to harm, nor be harmed."— Epicurus (c. 350 BCE)

 

[Phunkydiabetic]

Over the years I've narrowed it down to one main point. And as someone who's never been religious, it's ironically best known as a quote from the Bible (although it goes back farther than that).



That's it.

Sometimes the Bible's messages can be so simple, too bad they are complicated by man eh?

 

[Foamy]

It's always been my thesis that religion is a baseline for morality.
Someday we'll evolve past the need, but we're not there yet.
Fear of damnation is what keeps most people in check, not the law.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

how can the existence of successful "godless" societies be explained?

where are these examples? lol there are none.

on the contrary the few societies that did aim to be godless on any large scale have turned out to massacre tens of millions of people

Great Leap Forward - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

show me an example of an atheist society on a large scale and you will have proved your point. otherwise this entire discussion is theoretical and pointless. because i've just shown you an example of an atheist society that killed 45+ million of it's own people.

 

[Rentahamster]

Over the years I've narrowed it down to one main point. And as someone who's never been religious, it's ironically best known as a quote from the Bible (although it goes back farther than that).



That's it.

Edit:
If you want other forms of it:

The Golden Rule is a good one

 

[TyphoonStruggle]

Existence of God and belief in God are two different things. You can’t even get your argument straight. Atheists aren’t sending their best.

 

[Soodanim]

Sometimes the Bible's messages can be so simple, too bad they are complicated by man eh?

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
― Mahatma Gandhi

 

[Rentahamster]

where are these examples? lol there are none.

show me an example of an atheist society on a large scale and you will have proved your point. otherwise this entire discussion is theoretical and pointless.

You can't think of any at all?

Also keep in mind, that it's not necessarily only athiest societies that count. It can also be a theist society that doesn't believe their morals are dictated to them by God/a god/gods.

 

[Rentahamster]

Existence of God and belief in God are two different things. You can’t even get your argument straight. Atheists aren’t sending their best.

No kidding. You should read the OP again. Send your best reading comprehension please.

 

[Phunkydiabetic]

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
― Mahatma Gandhi

Sad but true.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

You can't think of any at all?

it's your thread, man. you are the one making this claim. you haven't offered a single example of a wholly atheist anti-God society that has succeeded. lol. this is the reason for the thread and you have no examples.

i actually offered a counter example.

God: 1 you: 0

Also keep in mind, that it's not necessarily only athiest societies that count. It can also be a theist society that doesn't believe their morals are dictated to them by God/a god/gods.

ok that second sentence makes no sense and contradicts itself lol. Gods are by definition the moral center of the religious universe, across pretty much any and all religions ever practiced. lol

good luck with this "discussion" tho

 

[Rentahamster]

it's your thread, man. you are the one making this claim. you haven't offered a single example. lol. why is it on me?

Just giving you a chance, dude.

Do you consider Japan (at most times in its history) to be a good example? Why or why not?

 

[Rentahamster]

ok that second sentence makes no sense and contradicts itself lol. good luck with this "discussion" tho

Does it? Ancient Greek society. Good example or bad example?

 

[Ulysses 31]

That's it.

The weakness of that verse is that it's only as good as the one uttering it.

 

[synchronicity]

It's always been my thesis that religion is a baseline for morality.
Someday we'll evolve past the need, but we're not there yet.
Fear of damnation is what keeps most people in check, not the law.

I had a religious friend who is a "good" and responsible family man - father of three - tell me straight up that if it weren't for religious consequences (as they exist in his mind), he'd be an absolute hell raiser. I'm like, well then you actually *are* just a piece of shit.

 

[Rentahamster]

i actually offered a counter example.

God: 1 you: 0

Does that mean that you consider the Chinese culture that the Great Leap Forward aimed to erase was one based on a code of morality dictated by God?

 

[Blade2.0]

why would i change your mind? i agree

it's your thread, man. you are the one making this claim. you haven't offered a single example of a wholly atheist anti-God society that has succeeded. lol. this is the reason for the thread and you have no examples.

i actually offered a counter example.

God: 1 you: 0

ok that second sentence makes no sense and contradicts itself lol. Gods are by definition the moral center of the religious universe, across pretty much any and all religions ever practiced. lol

good luck with this "discussion" tho

How about the fact that more secular western societies enjoy far less violent crime than the one (USA) majority Christian?

 

[Soodanim]

The weakness of that verse is that it's only as good as the one uttering it.

I prefer to restate it as something like "Do whatever makes you happy without hurting others."

 

[Rentahamster]

why would i change your mind? i agree

Excellent. We may now progress to the eating of various grilled meats.

 

[Ulysses 31]

I prefer to restate it as something like "Do whatever makes you happy without hurting others."

Live and let live, AKA classical liberalism?

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Moral relativity is a non-starter for any functioning society.

Natural law looks absolutely nothing like the moral systems we've been using. Every example of us bucking natural law throughout history begs the question why. You can say "god is not required" until you're blue in the face. I'd be happy to be shown a functioning moral system that has no roots in any religious system to perhaps lend a shred of credibility to this thought exercise.

Show an example of your society with a positive moral framework without any religious root to it. If you have something in mind, then we have a common frame of reference. Otherwise, I'm confronted by the reality of our current world, populated by countless societies that all relied on a god or many gods for the positive moral framework they enjoy today.

At best, we can banter about hypotheticals and wonder how a moral system might arise without any belief in divine entities, but then we'd be leaving the historical and playing in the realm of imagination and speculation.

The existence of water is not required for a living creature to be sentient change my mind. The existence of gravity is not required for particles to carry positive and negative charges change my mind. What other sort of nonsensical statements can we make until Wittgenstein and Ayers rise from their graves and comment on the thread?

 

[Rentahamster]

Moral relativity is a non-starter for any functioning society.

Moral relativism, as it's currently defined by most contemporaries, isn't necessarily part of the root argument contained within, either. According to a secular framework of morality, there are absolutely actions and tenets that can be considered to be objectively moral and not merely relatively moral, when analyzed with specific metrics in mind.

 

[Rentahamster]

Show an example of your society with a positive moral framework without any religious root to it. If you have something in mind, then we have a common frame of reference. Otherwise, I'm confronted by the reality of our current world, populated by countless societies that all relied on a god or many gods for the positive moral framework they enjoy today.

I asked Phone whether or not he considers Japan (at most points in its history) or Ancient Greece as good examples. What do you think?

 

[Sign]

Societies don't grow out of religion. They degrade, collapse, and get replaced by other societies that have stronger convictions in their beliefs.

If you are lucky what comes next is something like Christianity that brings forth a better world. If you are not you get Communism and thievery, Islam and brutality, Woke-shit and the deification of mental illness, etc.

Do you have any examples that are not ethnically homogeneous like Japan (which still has Shintoism, anyway)?

 

[Rentahamster]

which still has Shintoism, anyway

The "gods" in Shintoism (which are not the same as a Western interpretation of a "god") do not dictate morality from authority.

 

[lastmessiah]

Who says what is right or wrong though? That was the whole point of God, to have an absolute authority that deems things "right" and "wrong". Otherwise anyone could just retort with "nuh-uh".

Now that God is dead and science is what we have, it isn't even likely that humans possess free will. No system of morality makes sense in a reality where we are just puppets of forces beyond our control. But as tax paying citizens most of us desperately need ourselves and others to pretend that morals are real.

 

[Mistershine.]

If fear of God's punishment is the only thing stopping you from being a cunt then you've failed, because you already are one.

 

[Rentahamster]

That was the whole point of God, to have an absolute authority that deems things "right" and "wrong". Otherwise anyone could just retort with "nuh-uh".

And what happens when God dictates us to do things which we might personally find immoral? Or condones practices which modern society abolished many years ago?

Abraham probably thought that sacrificing his son is not cool, and so would most of us, but he nearly did it anyway because it was a command from God.

Is slavery okay, just because God is okay with it? Whose morality is absolute then? His or our own?

21 Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.


2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.


3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.


4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.


5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:


6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.


7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.


8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.

 

[Soodanim]

Moral relativity is a non-starter for any functioning society.

Natural law looks absolutely nothing like the moral systems we've been using. Every example of us bucking natural law throughout history begs the question why. You can say "god is not required" until you're blue in the face. I'd be happy to be shown a functioning moral system that has no roots in any religious system to perhaps lend a shred of credibility to this thought exercise.

Show an example of your society with a positive moral framework without any religious root to it. If you have something in mind, then we have a common frame of reference. Otherwise, I'm confronted by the reality of our current world, populated by countless societies that all relied on a god or many gods for the positive moral framework they enjoy today.

At best, we can banter about hypotheticals and wonder how a moral system might arise without any belief in divine entities, but then we'd be leaving the historical and playing in the realm of imagination and speculation.

The existence of water is not required for a living creature to be sentient change my mind. The existence of gravity is not required for particles to carry positive and negative charges change my mind. What other sort of nonsensical statements can we make until Wittgenstein and Ayers rise from their graves and comment on the thread?

Very good points. Given time, some European countries may help answer the question of whether a non-religious society works. Based on this we're still a long way off, but Sweden, Netherlands and Czech Republic are at over 50% non-religious.

Live and let live, AKA classical liberalism?

I'm out of my depth with political ideologies!

 

[lastmessiah]

And what happens when God dictates us to do things which we might personally find immoral? Or condones practices which modern society abolished many years ago?

Abraham probably thought that sacrificing his son is not cool, and so would most of us, but he nearly did it anyway because it was a command from God.

Is slavery okay, just because God is okay with it? Whose morality is absolute then? His or our own?

I’m not arguing in favor of a religious morality or any morality, I’m simply pointing out that morality is a construct that isn’t “real”. When people feared God it was easier to maintain a moral system, but now it is basically “every mind for itself”.

 

[diffusionx]

My proof is, look around you

HONK

 

[Rentahamster]

I’m not arguing in favor of a religious morality or any morality, I’m simply pointing out that morality is a construct that isn’t “real”. When people feared God it was easier to maintain a moral system, but now it is basically “every mind for itself”.

If that's the case, why is life expectancy longer than ever in history? Why is extreme poverty at its lowest level in history? Why is violence at its lowest level in history?

 

[lastmessiah]

If that's the case, why is life expectancy longer than ever in history? Why is extreme poverty at its lowest level in history? Why is violence at its lowest level in history?

I don’t understand what any of those things have to do with the discussion at hand.

 

[Sign]

The "gods" in Shintoism (which are not the same as a Western interpretation of a "god") do not dictate morality from authority.

It is still a religious framework that society organized around, and ethnically homogeneous.

You can't just pick and choose what you want. It is like going into a city and saying we don't need architects because look at all these buildings.

If that's the case, why is life expectancy longer than ever in history? Why is extreme poverty at its lowest level in history? Why is violence at its lowest level in history?

Christianity -> Western Civilization.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Moral relativism, is it's currently defined by most contemporaries, isn't necessarily part of the root argument contained within, either.

Then instead of god, what is the universal absolute we are following?

According to a secular framework of morality, there are absolutely actions and tenets that can be considered to be objectively moral and not merely relatively moral, when analyzed with specific metrics in mind.

I think you already answered my question above. I'd love to hear these specific metrics, and then to remind you of the religious writers who wrote about it 100s of years before.

Even if you wanna go full Nietzsche with your assertions, his writings are crammed full of religion. His conclusions are not made in a vacuum.

The concept of the existence of god is required for a functioning human mind, even if the human doesn't conclude god exists.

Going pure materialist: our brain-meat is constantly evaluating patterns and events in our daily routine. Even if the conclusion is illogical, we desperately seek out meta-patterns to explain what is going on. It's not voluntary. We obsess, we lose our minds, we have mental breakdowns if we cannot comprehend what is going on around us. One of the things we're confronted with is the idea of an 'ideal'. We see 'ideals' everywhere. Infants and young children develop their ability to categorize as a part of growing up. Ideal behaviors, ideal outcomes, ideal shapes, ideal versions of nature captured in man-made art.

It is only natural to wonder if there are ideal consciousnesses. I can experience the love of a mother, but is there a Meta Mother from whom all motherly love comes? I can experience the companionship of a friend, but is there a True Friend who will be loyal to me unconditionally? The disappointment of reality causes a yearning for the Ideal, whether we want to yearn for it or not. Again, it's not voluntary. We are compelled to ask "why didn't this real-life example match up with the ideal?" and we get especially angry when we know that the other person knew the ideal.

The material existence of the god in question isn't strictly necessary, but I don't think that's your point. You're arguing for the existence of a godless culture, and like I said, I'd be happy to learn more about whichever examples you can furnish.

I asked Phunky whether or not he considers Japan (at most points in its history) or Ancient Greece as good examples. What do you think?

Japanese and Greeks both believed in guiding powers who punished the actions of mortals. Like other asian societies, Japanese blended "divine punishment" with "natural consequences for the fool", but the social result was the same. Are we already gonna start playing word games with the term "god" to fabricate examples or did you actually intend for this to be a "change my mind" debate?

Very good points. Given time, some European countries may help answer the question of whether a non-religious society works. Based on this we're still a long way off, but Sweden, Netherlands and Czech Republic are at over 50% non-religious.

I'm not the thread referee so I will defer to Rentahamster here, but I don't think this is what the OP is asking for. Europe is an example of the opposite, where the existence of god not only gave the continent a cohesive positive moral framework (relatively) that they previously lacked but also inspired them to evangelize far and wide and explore the world.

 

[M1chl]

It's always been my thesis that religion is a baseline for morality.
Someday we'll evolve past the need, but we're not there yet.
Fear of damnation is what keeps most people in check, not the law.

Fear of death is also one of them, even tho, death is something which is hardly scary....for you

 

[Rentahamster]

I don’t understand what any of those things have to do with the discussion at hand.

You said it used to be easier to maintain a moral system, but not anymore. If that's the case, why is prosperity rising in this more immoral world we inhabit?

It is still a religious framework that society organized around, and ethnically homogeneous.

You can't just pick and choose what you want. It is like going into a city and saying we don't need architects because look at all these buildings.

This thread isn't about religious frameworks. That's too general. It is specifically about god-given moral absolutes.

Christianity.

Are you able to demonstrate that?

 

[SF Kosmo]

Religion is like Alcoholic's Anonymous: It's really helpful and positive for the certain people that need it, the community around it, and get the right message out of it, but is absolutely useless to everyone else. I'd never want to take it away from someone who feels like it enriches their lives, so I don't argue with people about it, but just because it helps you doesn't make it true.

 

[lastmessiah]

You said it used to be easier to maintain a moral system, but not anymore. If that's the case, why is prosperity rising in this more

This is you attributing a moral “good” to prosperity for no reason other than you think it is and others agree with you. I could just as easily come along and say prosperity is a grave evil. We both now have differing moral systems and they are clashing. Who is right or wrong? No one and everyone.

 

[haxan7]

I take comfort knowing that what I believe or don't believe doesn't change what's objectively there.

 

[Rentahamster]

Then instead of god, what is the universal absolute we are following?

This isn't necessarily about universal absolutes, either, or the need for any. This is about whether a god a necessary ingredient in any of this.

I think you already answered my question above. I'd love to hear these specific metrics, and then to remind you of the religious writers who wrote about it 100s of years before.

The metrics depend on whom you ask. In modern western society, as serveral posters here also subscribe to, the metrics are freedom and happiness. The contributions of religious writers are also greatly appreciated as well. I'm not discounting their work. Religious philosophy is just as much a foundation of our modern society as any. I'm more concerned, like Thomas Jefferson was, in the necessity of the supernatural aspects of it.

Jefferson Bible - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Even if you wanna go full Nietzsche with your assertions

That's not really my aim either.

Japanese and Greeks both believed in guiding powers who punished the actions of mortals. Like other asian societies, Japanese blended "divine punishment" with "natural consequences for the fool", but the social result was the same. Are we already gonna start playing word games with the term "god" to fabricate examples

Nope, which is why I very clearly defined what my premise is.

 

[Rentahamster]

This is you attributing a moral “good” to prosperity for no reason other than you think it is and others agree with you. I could just as easily come along and say prosperity is a grave evil. We both now have differing moral systems and they are clashing. Who is right or wrong? No one and everyone.

I'm not looking for moral relativist arguments though. I'm more interest in the empirical.

 

[Soodanim]

I'm not the thread referee so I will defer to Rentahamster here, but I don't think this is what the OP is asking for. Europe is an example of the opposite, where the existence of god not only gave the continent a cohesive positive moral framework (relatively) that they previously lacked but also inspired them to evangelize far and wide and explore the world.

Purely looking at a hypothetical but entirely likely future (based on trends), we may reach point where some countries have been non-religious for so long that any laws or standards with religious starting points questioned and possibly removed. With how ingrained religion is in humanity's past, it might be that looking to the future is the only choice we have with regards to the question of religious influence.

Of course, the answer may just be that the religious teachings that persisted are for whatever reason the ones that societies tend to agree with anyway (taking it back to The Golden Rule, for example). After all, from a non-religious viewpoint aren't all religious teachings just the writings of humans attributed to deities?

 

[lastmessiah]

I'm not looking for moral relativist arguments though. I'm more interest in the empirical.

I don’t follow. I’m not arguing moral relativism, but rather moral anti-realism. I don’t believe in a God either and I think you have the wrong impression or something. I was just explaining what role God filled in the past and how morality no longer makes sense post-Enlightenment.

 

[Airola]

I had a religious friend who is a "good" and responsible family man - father of three - tell me straight up that if it weren't for religious consequences (as they exist in his mind), he'd be an absolute hell raiser. I'm like, well then you actually *are* just a piece of shit.

The biggest thing of Christianity is to understand and admit we are pieces of shit. There wouldn't be no need for a savior if we weren't. So probably if you'd go and say that guy that he probably is a piece of shit then, he'd respond with "yes" and continue living his life with zero new revelation about him shown to him.

 

[poppabk]

It's always been my thesis that religion is a baseline for morality.
Someday we'll evolve past the need, but we're not there yet.
Fear of damnation is what keeps most people in check, not the law.

Is it? I've always wondered how Christian's commit so many crimes and sins knowing that that an all powerful all seeing God is watching them and judging them and the result will be an eternity in hell. Should be a better motivator than it appears to be.

 

[Rentahamster]

I don’t follow. I’m not arguing moral relativism, but rather moral anti-realism. I don’t believe in a God either and I think you have the wrong impression or something. I was just explaining what role God filled in the past and how morality no longer makes sense post-Enlightenment.

I'm just trying to get back to your original point about the "realness" of morality. It's not relative. As long as a society has specific values in mind that it wants to maximize, a moral framework can be constructed to maximize those values. That is very real.

 

[lastmessiah]

I'm just trying to get back to your original point about the "realness" of morality. It's not relative. As long as a society has specific values in mind that it wants to maximize, a moral framework can be constructed to maximize those values. That is very real.

What is “society”? Who gets to decide what values are worthy of maximizing in a society, and why? I think I already see where there is going though - argumentum ad populum.

 

[Rentahamster]

Is it? I've always wondered how Christian's commit so many crimes and sins knowing that that an all powerful all seeing God is watching them and judging them and the result will be an eternity in hell. Should be a better motivator than it appears to be.

Indeed. In most Christian denominations, ask your pastor which is the ultimate gatekeeper to being accepted into the Kingdom of Heaven.

1. Being a decent, law-abiding person who pays taxes and doesn't hurt anyone.

or

2. Accepting Jesus Christ into your heart as your Lord and Savior.