Support NeoGAF

[Men_in_Boxes]

I've had violence done unto me. I've heard a number of twits attempt to tar Bungie and their supposed "trend chasing" with Marathon. The purpose of this thread is to sweep those cretins back under the rock they crawled from, and to encourage conversation from those with an open mind.

The Extraction Shooter is gamings new "Mario 64 moment". A hack media outlet use this term on an Astro Bot Rescue Mission back in 2018. That milk is now chunky and black.

An Extraction Shooter is s a PvP RPG. The premise of the genre is building your characters power over a length of time. You do this buy "extracting" resources out of dangerous PvP centric lobbies that can in turn be crafted into better guns, gadgets, and ammo etc...

Here's the reason why it's gamings new Mario 64 moment...

The top 10 best selling Atari (console) games are Pacman, Space Invaders, Asteroids, Missile Command, Donkey Kong, River Raid, Adventure, Combat, Football, and Pitfall. 10/10 of those games are session based games. Each session is relatively short, and plays nearly identical to the last. The only "progression" we see is from the players skill level improving.

The top 10 best selling NES (console) games are Mario 3, Mario 2, Zelda, Tetris, Metroid, Punch Out, Final Fantasy, The Adventure of Link, Castlevania, and Kirby's Adventure. Only 6/10 of those game are session based games. Zelda, Final Fantasy, The Adventures of Link, and Kirby's Adventure have a save system that allowed for a longer gameplay narrative.

The top 10 best selling PlayStation games are Gran Turismo, Gran Turismo 2, FF VII, GTA, Metal Gear Solid, Tekken 3, FF VIII, Spyro, Crash Bandicoot, and Crash Bandicoot 2. Only 1/10 of those games are session based games - Tekken 3. The trend is clear. We prefer long form narrative to session based games. Today, it's unheard of for a session based game to sell more than 10 million copies.

Here's the top 10 most popular multiplayer games of today...

Fortnite - Session based.
Roblox - Session based.
CSGO - Session based.
League of Legends - Session based.
Valorant - Session based.
Dota 2 - Session based.
Warzone - Session based.
PUBG - Session based.
World of Warcraft - Long form
FF XIV - Long form

Multiplayer is in the transition period we saw between early 1980s Atari and the mid 1990s PlayStation. It took about 15 years to shift from mostly session based single player games to mostly long form single player games.

The Extraction Shooter genre is the best positioned to take us into the new era of multiplayer for two reasons. First, how many PvP genres lend themselves to long form narrative? The Extraction genre and the Survival genre? The industry seems to be pouring significantly more resources into making Extraction Shooters at the moment (ARC Raiders, PUBG Black Budget, Marathon, Exoborne, Far Cry Extraction, Warzone DMZ 2.0 etc...). Secondly, the genre is ripe for popularity growth because the objective is not to kill opposing players. The objective is to extract. This means that people who are interested in collecting, puzzle solving, exploring, socializing, and building are more likely to find their place in the genre. Bungies Marathon seems best suited to take the genre forward because of their production value advantage as well as the fact that they're targeting different types of players by making unique character classes. Thief and Stealth for example, aren't likely to be frontline CoD esque run and gun character classes.

What say you? Marathon is videogames next Mario 64 moment?

 

[TintoConCasera]

I've had violence done unto me.

Most metal opening to a thread I've ever seen.

 

[SScorpio]

I can't vote on anything since you screwed up typing "OP makes some daft arguments".

 

[ZehDon]

In the typical formula, losing means you not only lose the items from that round, but the items from the previous round. This ostracising aspect of the extraction shooter - you're ultimately gambling to see who wastes the most/least amount of time - will keep it from hitting Battle Royale levels, I think.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Bungie hasn’t made a good PvP game in generations. And I don’t trust whatever they put out with Marathon to not be MTX infested pay to win garbage. Maybe Marathon will be good, but it’s way too early to say anything definitive. Especially that it will be another “Mario 64 moment”.

Extraction shooters are cool because they blend the battle royale genre with PvE aspects and deeper progression while still relying heavily on PvP. But they aren’t going to be more popular than your run of the mill BR games like Fortnite.

 

[bender]

 

[Hrk69]

Worst fucking gaming take I've read all year

 

[wipeout364]

I am going to be honest the only extraction shooters I have played and they are not super representative of the genre are MW3 Zombies and DMZ from MW2. They were decent but honestly like Battle Royale they are not really my thing.

I don’t think extraction shooters will be compared to Mario 64 since there are so many and they are each tinkering with the formula. They also are a little too close to battle Royale if you ask me to really take the kind of spotlight Mario 64 received when it landed.

 

[MarkMe2525]

Oh geez, another one

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

In the typical formula, losing means you not only lose the items from that round, but the items from the previous round. This ostracising aspect of the extraction shooter - you're ultimately gambling to see who wastes the most/least amount of time - will keep it from hitting Battle Royale levels, I think.

The NFL is the most watched sport in America and its regular season is the most punishing. I don't think people are as afraid of risk as many believe. Risk often enhances the experience.

 

[digital_ghost]

Most metal opening to a thread I've ever seen.

 

[grvg]

I like reading your posts

 

[Hrk69]

I like reading your posts

 

[SnapShot]

Extraction who

 

[Ristifer]

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I like reading your posts

We're fishing for the whales my friend grvg . As you can see, the minnows have showed up. We just need to give it time and wait for a true intellect to come to the argument in good faith.

 

[rm082e]

Bungie is absolutely chasing a trend that a lot of players are already rolling their eyes at. I don't think Marathon will be a Concord style failure, but I don't see it blowing up like Fortnite or Apex Legends.

 

[YuLY]

The genre will remain niche, the idea that you work for some items only to lose them due to pvp is not appealing enough for mass market. I think Bungie will be restructured after the release of Marathon which will have acceptable numbers but ultimately be considered a failure due to costs.

 

[diffusionx]

where is the "OP is a retard" option?

 

[Bernardougf]

[

 

[FoxMcChief]

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Bungie is absolutely chasing a trend that a lot of players are already rolling their eyes at. I don't think Marathon will be a Concord style failure, but I don't see it blowing up like Fortnite or Apex Legends.

It'll be interesting to see how it does relative to Tarkov. I'm anticipating it being the Fortnite to Tarkovs PUBG. I don't think games like Hunt Showdown have a chance to keep up.

 

[TommyCronin6969]

 

[BennyBlanco]

I have no opinion on the subject matter but Men_in_Boxes rules.

 

[kiphalfton]

Worst fucking gaming take I've read all year

Men_In_Boxes must outdone himself then.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

The genre will remain niche, the idea that you work for some items only to lose them due to pvp is not appealing enough for mass market. I think Bungie will be restructured after the release of Marathon which will have acceptable numbers but ultimately be considered a failure due to costs.

Pretty much this exactly. After this thread and the last extraction thread OP made, I wonder if they have ever actually spent meaningful time with any.

This genre will never reach BR levels of popularity because it requires a larger investment. If you get killed in Fortnite it doesn’t matter, you can drop in another game quickly and get more items. If you die in an extraction shooter you lose your character and everything you brought in.

People play them very differently.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

This genre will never reach BR levels of popularity

Reminder: No genre has ever reached BR levels of popularity. That's an odd barometer to judge future games by.

The idea that Battlestate Games (WHO?) reached the pinnacle of the genre with Escape from Tarkov, which was one of the first Extraction Games ever created, seems pretty far fetched don't you think?

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Reminder: No genre has ever reached BR levels of popularity. That's an odd barometer to judge future games by.

You literally said the genre would take us into the “next era of MP”. I’m not talking as popular in terms of users or sales. It will never be the “next era of MP”. It is just a branch on the BR tree.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

You literally said the genre would take us into the “next era of MP”. I’m not talking as popular in terms of users or sales. It will never be the “next era of MP”. It is just a branch on the BR tree.

Oh I think that's wrong. Wrong for sure.

Battle Royale is a session based genre. The Extraction genre is long form. The DNA couldn't be more different. I think it's pretty clear gamers prefer long form games. We just need pioneers to take us there.

 

[bitbydeath]

It'll be interesting to see how it does relative to Tarkov. I'm anticipating it being the Fortnite to Tarkovs PUBG. I don't think games like Hunt Showdown have a chance to keep up.

Nah, Fortnite excels because it isn’t a single mission oriented game. You could technically also call it an extraction shooter, among other genres because the overall objective is to get out alive with the crown.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

Hunt Showdown is the best extraction shooter around.

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

You know, I read the whole thing and really expected you to make a point.

That's a lot of vague notions about session-based games that's demonstrably absurd if you look at... well, a shitload of games that aren't one of the hyper-popular, lucky few.

 

[LordOcidax]

 

[Topher]

Same old shit

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

“Gamers prefer long form games” - guy who posted chart full of casual in and out MP games

 

[Ceadeus]

Fortnite could blend its BR and Save the world loot survival game and it would become a PvPvE extraction game.

With Tarkov being so hardcore, it's far from being mainstream. The Divisions dark zone is kinda fun but it's missing something?

 

[Guardian Monkey]

 

[ZehDon]

The NFL is the most watched sport in America and its regular season is the most punishing. I don't think people are as afraid of risk as many believe. Risk often enhances the experience.

That's a stretched analogy if I've ever seen one.

In any case, this isn't a "Risk vs Reward" scenario, it's "Progress versus Punishment". Getting stomped by a two v one causes you to lose several sessions of gear, where you might not have even found new gear to begin with. Extraction shooters are a "we'll basically delete your save file if you get ganked" scenario, and a round or two of that can put people off. I know this because my crew ran into that wall on a couple of extraction games before we just gave up on the entire genre. They'll be niche so long as they remain so brutal.

 

[diffusionx]

Reminder: No genre has ever reached BR levels of popularity. That's an odd barometer to judge future games by.

The idea that Battlestate Games (WHO?) reached the pinnacle of the genre with Escape from Tarkov, which was one of the first Extraction Games ever created, seems pretty far fetched don't you think?

not really. DOTA was the first "MOBA" and is still the most popular, or the 2nd most popular. Despite plenty of other attempts.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Nah, Fortnite excels because it isn’t a single mission oriented game. You could technically also call it an extraction shooter, among other genres because the overall objective is to get out alive with the crown.

Extraction Shooters are more diverse in the missions they give players than even Battle Royale. That's why I think the canvas is significantly more interesting to work from.

not really. DOTA was the first "MOBA" and is still the most popular, or the 2nd most popular. Despite plenty of other attempts.

This could easily be a new thread itself, but I think gamers have a real hard time grasping how complex gaming is. We heard for a solid 5 years how the MOBA market was saturated and then Deadlock showed up. A cookie is made up of 10 ingredients. How many failed batches do you think a baker has to go through before they discover how to make a new type of cookie? Just because 5 or 7 MOBAs failed after Dota 2 and League doesn't mean the genre is tapped out. It means our imagination is tapped out for what the genre needs.

 

[BennyBlanco]

Look at how effortlessly OP gets the gamers riled up without even relying on console wars. It’s a masterclass.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

That's a stretched analogy if I've ever seen one.

In any case, this isn't a "Risk vs Reward" scenario, it's "Progress versus Punishment". Getting stomped by a two v one causes you to lose several sessions of gear, where you might not have even found new gear to begin with. Extraction shooters are a "we'll basically delete your save file if you get ganked" scenario, and a round or two of that can put people off. I know this because my crew ran into that wall on a couple of extraction games before we just gave up on the entire genre. They'll be niche so long as they remain so brutal.

Consider Roguelikes vs Roguelites.

Roguelikes have 0 inter-match progression and nobody on NeoGAF could name a single Roguelike outside of Spelunky. They're not popular.

Roguelites have become one of the most popular indie genres because they've figured out a way to give players a small amount of progress after death.

I don't see how the Extraction genre won't solve this.

 

[Generic]

In the typical formula, losing means you not only lose the items from that round, but the items from the previous round. This ostracising aspect of the extraction shooter - you're ultimately gambling to see who wastes the most/least amount of time - will keep it from hitting Battle Royale levels, I think.

It's hardcore.

 

[TerribleAtThisGame]

Hunt: Showdown is probably one of my favorite games of all time AND I'M TIRED OF PRETENDING IT'S NOT!

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Look at how effortlessly OP gets the gamers riled up without even relying on console wars. It’s a masterclass.

I'd honestly rather just the 3 or 4 good faith posters show up and interact with them. The minnows do nothing for me. Gaming is so much more interesting than sales charts and CEO platitudes.

 

[PixelatedBeast]

This is the perfect time for DICE to release a new Battlefield game. The DNA of their franchise is perfectly made for the new evolution of FPS, but they havent exactly adapted quite yet. The execution in Battlefield 2042 wasnt great, but the vision was definitely there for the Battle Royale and an Extraction mode. They had something for everybody, including their old Conquest mode and Rush modes. They just need to go back to their roots of modern warfare and destruction on large maps with a variety of vehicles and squads of 4 and different classes. Nobody would be mad if they brought back the destruction from Battlefield Bad Company 2.

Fps gamers today want more close quarters/ boots on the ground combat gameplay, but DICE has to find the right balance so that foot soldiers never feel overwhelmed and players in vehicles never feel under powered. Thats the one way they can differentiate themselves while also offering something new. No other games incorporate as many different vehicles in combat except for GTA Online.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

your takes are getting worse as time goes by

 

[diffusionx]

Extraction Shooters are more diverse in the missions they give players than even Battle Royale. That's why I think the canvas is significantly more interesting to work from.


This could easily be a new thread itself, but I think gamers have a real hard time grasping how complex gaming is. We heard for a solid 5 years how the MOBA market was saturated and then Deadlock showed up. A cookie is made up of 10 ingredients. How many failed batches do you think a baker has to go through before they discover how to make a new type of cookie? Just because 5 or 7 MOBAs failed after Dota 2 and League doesn't mean the genre is tapped out. It means our imagination is tapped out for what the genre needs.

I never said it was tapped out. I said it was the most popular one, which it is. DOTA 2's 24 hour peak on Steam is over 10x that of Deadlock right now. And DOTA is a 20 year old game at this point.

So no, it's not surprising that Tarkov remains the most popular extraction shooter and it wouldn't be surprised if it is the most popular one 10 years from now, whatever the genre looks like, and possibly long after Marathon is shut down.

 

[digital_ghost]

We're fishing for the whales my friend grvg . As you can see, the minnows have showed up. We just need to give it time and wait for a true intellect to come to the argument in good faith.

 

[ZehDon]

Consider Roguelikes vs Roguelites.

Roguelikes have 0 inter-match progression and nobody on NeoGAF could name a single Roguelike outside of Spelunky. They're not popular.

Roguelites have become one of the most popular indie genres because they've figured out a way to give players a small amount of progress after death.

I don't see how the Extraction genre won't solve this.

Sorta-kinda-but-not-really. Rogue-lites are games such as Diablo. So, in that analogy, extraction shooters would be Diablo Hardcore mode, where it deletes your toon when you die. Have a guess what the least populate way to play Diablo is? If the Extraction shooter "solves this" then it won't be the extraction shooter genre anymore - it'll just be a looter shooter with an extraction mode. Which we already have in The Division - and guess what the least popular mode in The Division is?