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[IDKFA]

You have to read the OP. It's more about session based games transitioning to long form games.

The reason why I brought up the NFL is because people keep regurgitating the same talking point - "Extraction Shooters will never be big because there's risk involved in the gameplay loop."

That doesn't check out for me, because we see evidence of people enjoying risk/stakes in other popular mediums (games even).

That comparison doesn't make sense.

What is the NFL fan isn't in control of their teams performance. They lose nothing if they're team doesn't make the play-offs.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but with extraction shooters there is the risk of losing your gear, which is a direct risk to the player. Also, I understand that some of these games have insurance polices for players to protect their gear? Is that correct?

Anyway, I fail to see how any of this is like Mario 64. That was revolutionary for gaming. Extraction shooters appear to be predatory ways to extract more money from gamers.

 

[cormack12]

Aprt from Tarkvo, the Hunt and maybe DMZ there hasn't been enough decent Extraction shooters for the genre to become stale.

Or the market has rejected the genre, broadly speaking - Tarkov took years and built up a loyal community and probably benefitted from D2 dropping the ball with the DZ. It's here mainly because of attrition. We've had DMZ and Hazard Zone as well as countless other attempts. I see this as about as good as it gets. One really big Extraction shooter, a handful of other titles that have loyal, cultlike small supportive communities and that's it. This is saturation for me unless someone can redefine the genre mechanically.

It's like comparing survival mode to BRs - while BRs are healthy-ish but coalesced round a few high quality titles.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

That comparison doesn't make sense.

What is the NFL fan isn't in control of their teams performance. They lose nothing if they're team doesn't make the play-offs.

Why do you think being in control matters when it comes to risk/stakes? I could just as easily argue risk/stakes are less enjoyable when you're not in control. You have to support your theory with evidence. We have evidence that people invest less in their hometown football team (ticket sales, merchandise) when their team is bad). Hard to argue the human brain actually deciphers a difference.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but with extraction shooters there is the risk of losing your gear, which is a direct risk to the player. Also, I understand that some of these games have insurance polices for players to protect their gear? Is that correct?

Anyway, I fail to see how any of this is like Mario 64. That was revolutionary for gaming. Extraction shooters appear to be predatory ways to extract more money from gamers.

You are right, but again I point you towards the roguelite genre which gives you a small degree of progression between runs.

Again, read the OP. It's about the transition from session based gameplay loops to long form gameplay loops. Single player transitioned out of session based gameplay back in the 1980's due to technological advancements. Multiplayer is going through the same metamorphosis in core design. This is a massive leap. One that can not be understated.

 

[Calverz]

Extraction shooters were the next big thing after battle royale about 2 years ago. Escape from Tarkov, Vigor, DMZ in cod, rainbow six extraction etc

Trouble is people got bored of them all quick. They have gone back to traditional BR games for now.

Rainbow six extraction is dead, DMZ in cod is dead and not in the two most recent games, escape from tarkov still has a hardcore player base but nowhere near as big as it was and Vigor keeps ticking along but isn't doing big steam numbers.

Unfortunately for Marathon and Fairgame$, they are very late to the party and everyone has pretty much gone home.
The two games will need to be very VERY special to be successes.

 

[IDKFA]

. We have evidence that people invest less in their hometown football team (ticket sales, merchandise) when their team is bad). Hard to argue the human brain actually deciphers a difference.

Maybe in the USA where sports teams are just franchises. Here in England, football (soccer) is religion. I'll spend the same money on my CLUB regardless if we're in the Prem or bottom of league 2 fighting to remain a professional team. I've been to away days where it's the equivalent of a war. Phycoloigal warfare with chanting inside the ground and physical war outside. There is no "risk" for me if my club is winning or losing because I'll support my club to the death! No NFL, NBA, NHL or even MLS fan knows what that feels like.

Anyway, this clealry shows supporting a sports team is nothing like playing an extraction shooter. At all.

You are right, but again I point you towards the roguelite genre which gives you a small degree of progression between runs.

Again, read the OP. It's about the transition from session based gameplay loops to long form gameplay loops. Single player transitioned out of session based gameplay back in the 1980's due to technological advancements. Multiplayer is going through the same metamorphosis in core design. This is a massive leap. One that can not be understated.

Extraction shooters are a fad. A flash in the pan. Flavour of the month etc. No way is it like the revolutionary change of 2d to 3d gaming.

I'll gargle my own nuts if I'm wrong.

 

[Futaleufu]

What the hell is a "Mario 64 moment"?

 

[Guardian Monkey]

What the hell is a "Mario 64 moment"?

A term used to identify people under the age of 35. Joking aside, it is the commonly accepted game that moved 3d games into the mainstream with solid gameplay and graphics in the console world.

 

[Edgelord79]

Bungie better hope so.

 

[Guardian Monkey]

Bungie better hope so.

We haven’t even seen any gameplay of this as far as I am aware.We don’t even know what this is other than “extraction shooter”. It seems like the game has been pushed back some, who knows if they have changed some direction. Also, Bungie isn’t some stagnate thing, even though they have made some great series in the past, but nothing is guaranteed moving forward, we just don’t know.

 

[Futaleufu]

A term used to identify people under the age of 35. Joking aside, it is the commonly accepted game that moved 3d games into the mainstream with solid gameplay and graphics in the console world.

So Doom and Daytona USA never happened? Or even the 3DO or the PS1?
I bet those "mario 64 moment" people were the first in queue to buy Nintendo branded cardboard.

 

[Guardian Monkey]

So Doom and Daytona USA never happened? Or even the 3DO or the PS1?
I bet those "mario 64 moment" people were the first in queue to buy Nintendo branded cardboard.

I’m not asking the question of what it is. Per here is a ChatGPT response to clarify.

The “Mario 64 moment” is a term that fans and critics often use to describe a game that feels revolutionary, just as Super Mario 64 did when it launched in 1996. Super Mario 64 was one of the first games to make full use of 3D gameplay in a way that felt intuitive, with a fully explorable world and a new style of movement. Its camera controls, 3D platforming mechanics, and open-world exploration were groundbreaking and set the standard for 3D games.

So, when people refer to a “Mario 64 moment,” they mean a game that introduces a major leap forward in design or technology, reshaping how players interact with virtual worlds or pushing the boundaries of what’s possible in gaming. This kind of moment goes beyond simply creating a great game; it’s about redefining a genre or setting a new benchmark that inspires other games.

 

[Bernardougf]

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

The list of “session based vs long form” MP titles in the OP is funny because the two “long form” MP titles are MMO’s that have been out for 14 years in the case of FF and 20 years in the case of WoW. So this “shift to long form MP” stems from two games that aren’t really traditional MP games and have been out for decades

I also just noticed where OP said the objective in extraction games isn’t to kill other players. That’s false. These games pretty much all reward you with much better progression if you kill enemy players. It’s also one of the best ways to get better gear. Take Hunt for example. You can drop into a game solo and try to sneak around avoiding other players but 1, the game will be boring as fuck and 2, you won’t get any bounties in most cases because other players will be going for it and even if you somehow kill a boss solo and get the bounty, now everyone on the map knows where you are and they all want to kill you to get your bounty.

Even if you aren’t holding a bounty, if they see you they’ll want to kill you because it gives a lot of XP and they can loot your body for cash and tools and take your weapons if they are better.

Extraction shooters are still very much PvP at their core.

 

[Woopah]

How are you defining "session based" here?

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

The list of “session based vs long form” MP titles in the OP is funny because the two “long form” MP titles are MMO’s that have been out for 14 years in the case of FF and 20 years in the case of WoW. So this “shift to long form MP” stems from two games that aren’t really traditional MP games and have been out for decades

Solid observation but for the transition to really get into gear, it needed to find a more approachable PvP centered genre. WoW and FFXIV don't really appeal to the types of players who play Fortnite, CSGO, Warzone etc... The Extraction Shooter genre will deliver us.

I also just noticed where OP said the objective in extraction games isn’t to kill other players. That’s false.

Nope. It's to extract from the map safely with new gear in hand. You can chain numerous successful runs together without fighting other players. The level, or temperature, of PvP gameplay is decided on by each games developer. If a developer understands the concept of Bartles Taxonomy of Player Types, as I'm sure Bungie does, they'll provide avenues for different types of players to see success in their game. That's why of all the upcoming ES games, Marathon casts the biggest shadow. Character classes was a brilliant idea.

Extraction shooters are still very much PvP at their core.

Just as Fortnite and CSGO are PvP to their core. Only the ES genre gives players a wider variety of strategies to use to achieve success.

Maybe in the USA where sports teams are just franchises. Here in England, football (soccer) is religion. I'll spend the same money on my CLUB regardless if we're in the Prem or bottom of league 2 fighting to remain a professional team. I've been to away days where it's the equivalent of a war. Phycoloigal warfare with chanting inside the ground and physical war outside. There is no "risk" for me if my club is winning or losing because I'll support my club to the death! No NFL, NBA, NHL or even MLS fan knows what that feels like.

You don't represent the majority though. I can assure you that Premier League teams see an increase in merchandise sales when the team is viewed as moving in the right direction. Human nature doesn't change.

Anyway, this clealry shows supporting a sports team is nothing like playing an extraction shooter. At all.

Both show massive populations are attracted to games of high risk / stakes.

Extraction shooters are a fad. A flash in the pan. Flavour of the month etc. No way is it like the revolutionary change of 2d to 3d gaming.

I'm sure you said this about Fortnite and Battle Royale as well. You should wipe the egg off your face first before you move on to the next big thing. Like BR, the template is too impressive not to explode.

I'll gargle my own nuts

 

[IDKFA]

You don't represent the majority though. I can assure you that Premier League teams see an increase in merchandise sales when the team is viewed as moving in the right direction. Human nature doesn't change.

Please. Man Utd have been dog shit for years and haven't won a title since 2012, yet they're still the second highest grossing team in the Prem.

Both show massive populations are attracted to games of high risk / stakes.

But there is no risk for the NFL fan. The risk is with the team who would generate less revenue if they perform badly.

Every year millions of men have unprotected one night stands, which although enjoyable, also increases the risk of catching a STI.

Holy shit! Extraction shooters and fucking a random women bareback are now comparable! See the issue here?

I'm sure you said this about Fortnite and Battle Royale as well. You should wipe the egg off your face first before you move on to the next big thing. Like BR, the template is too impressive not to explode.

Fortnite is popular, but how many other Battle Royale games share the same success? Are we drowning in BR games? No.

Looks like I won't be gargling my nuts any time soon.

Checkmate.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Please. Man Utd have been dog shit for years and haven't won a title since 2012, yet they're still the second highest grossing team in the Prem.

The Dallas Cowboys have been bad for over a decade and they're one of the NFLs highest earning teams too. All teams benefit from being good. The reason why teams spend tons of money on skilled players is because teams know those players will bring in more money than they cost. This is business 101.

But there is no risk for the NFL fan. The risk is with the team who would generate less revenue if they perform badly.

Fans don't like going to losing games. Losing is unpleasant. This existence of this phenomenon isn't really debatable.

Holy shit! Extraction shooters and fucking a random women bareback are now comparable! See the issue here?

You're starting to jump the shark here.

Fortnite is popular, but how many other Battle Royale games share the same success? Are we drowning in BR games? No.

This is a single player gamer mentality. As the Extraction Shooter genre "blows up", that doesn't mean we'll be drowning in games like y'all are with Souls likes. It just means two or three new Extraxtion games will succeed and grab a significant percentage of the gaming population. It will be similar to what happened with BR.

The Extraction Shooter is inevitable. Take it from someone who was enamored with BR before Fortnite released. I understand PvP. I'm sorry that offends you.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Solid observation but for the transition to really get into gear, it needed to find a more approachable PvP centered genre. WoW and FFXIV don't really appeal to the types of players who play Fortnite, CSGO, Warzone etc... The Extraction Shooter genre will deliver us.


Nope. It's to extract from the map safely with new gear in hand. You can chain numerous successful runs together without fighting other players. The level, or temperature, of PvP gameplay is decided on by each games developer. If a developer understands the concept of Bartles Taxonomy of Player Types, as I'm sure Bungie does, they'll provide avenues for different types of players to see success in their game. That's why of all the upcoming ES games, Marathon casts the biggest shadow. Character classes was a brilliant idea.


Just as Fortnite and CSGO are PvP to their core. Only the ES genre gives players a wider variety of strategies to use to achieve success..

Yeah no offense but you come off as someone who’s only experience with extraction games are very shallow ones like Division or CoD. Everything I just quoted here is nonsense. Good luck though, eventually you have to be right about something.

 

[Dr_Ifto]

Until Fortnite adds an extraction shooter mode and then consumes everything

 

[IDKFA]

You're starting to jump the shark here.

Lol.

You used NFL as evidence that extraction shooters will have their "Mario 64" moment. How is that any different to comparing it to one night stands? They're both insane comparisons.

The Extraction Shooter is inevitable. Take it from someone who was enamored with BR before Fortnite released. I understand PvP. I'm sorry that offends you.

It doesn't offend me, but I find it hard to trust somebody who thought Concord was going to be gaming equivalent of the second coming of Christ.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

You used NFL as evidence that extraction shooters will have their "Mario 64" moment. How is that any different to comparing it to one night stands? They're both insane comparisons.

No, I used the NFL as evidence that people are innately attracted to high stakes and consequence. The Mario 64 moment was referring to the shift out of session based gaming into long form multiplayer. This was explained in the OP and then reiterated numerous times in the thread.

It doesn't offend me, but I find it hard to trust somebody who thought Concord was going to be gaming equivalent of the second coming of Christ.

You're mistaken there too. (A pattern emerges)

 

[IDKFA]

You're mistaken there too. (A pattern emerges)

Those were the vibes I was getting.

Concord will be bigger than every game listed in the OP.

Concord will wipe out 80 percent of the intelligentsia on GAF. This poll will be a massacre that historians say was more horrific than Custards Last Stand.

That's a Concorde.

A concord is an agreement or harmony between groups. Concord is a PvP FPS game making it one of the most creative games we've had in a long time.

The year is 2029. The F2P game Concord is readying the release of its 12 season despite the internet proclaiming it "DOA". The people will not learn. Nothing new under the sun.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Those were the vibes I was getting.

All pre gameplay reveal comments?

 

[IDKFA]

All pre gameplay reveal comments?

I haven't seen much gameplay from Marathon, yet here we are. Isn't that also a Marathon avatar I see as well?

 

[Bernardougf]

Those were the vibes I was getting.

Im shocked... shocked I say.

 

[Danjin44]

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I haven't seen much gameplay from Marathon, yet here we are. Isn't that also a Marathon avatar I see as well?

The big difference (the one that you missed) is that we didn't know what genre Concord was at the time. I logically assumed it would take inspiration from Fortnite/PUBG, instead it took inspiration from Overwatch. An error that shows logic and rational mindedness. We do know what genre Marathon falls under.

Concord was a SESSION BASED multiplayer game...and died.
Marathon is a LONG FORM multiplayer game...____________.

 

[nowhat]

I logically assumed it would take inspiration from Fortnite/PUBG, instead it took inspiration from Overwatch. An error that shows logic and rational mindedness.

I'll have to copy this. Instead of taking the L like I should, it was just "an error that shows logic and rational mindedness".

 

[IDKFA]

The big difference (the one that you missed) is that we didn't know what genre Concord was at the time. I logically assumed it would take inspiration from Fortnite/PUBG, instead it took inspiration from Overwatch. An error that shows logic and rational mindedness. We do know what genre Marathon falls under.

Concord was a SESSION BASED multiplayer game...and died.
Marathon is a LONG FORM multiplayer game...____________.

How was it logical to assume this would follow Fortnite/PUBG as a BR game? It was announced as a multiplayer PVP FPS. With that vague description It was just as likely to be an Overwatch clone. You made an assumption and got it wrong.

And on that note, I think we're done here.

 

[Mossybrew]

Well I will say I think the genre still has a lot of untapped potential. Looking forward to seeing how Arc Raiders and Marathon turn out.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

How was it logical to assume this would follow Fortnite/PUBG as a BR game? It was announced as a multiplayer PVP FPS. With that vague description It was just as likely to be an Overwatch clone. You made an assumption and got it wrong.

PUBG and Fortnite exploded in 2017 and lit the fuse for the GAAS industry revolution.

Concord gets funded in 2018.

Why would anyone expect Concord to take inspiration from 2016s Overwatch?

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Those were the vibes I was getting.

Damn you slaughtered him.

The year is 2029. The F2P game Concord is readying the release of its 12 season despite the internet proclaiming it "DOA". The people will not learn. Nothing new under the sun.

This one is especially hilarious. Season 12 five years after release. Would it have even made it to season 12 if every season was one day?