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[IDKFA]

You have to read the OP. It's more about session based games transitioning to long form games.

The reason why I brought up the NFL is because people keep regurgitating the same talking point - "Extraction Shooters will never be big because there's risk involved in the gameplay loop."

That doesn't check out for me, because we see evidence of people enjoying risk/stakes in other popular mediums (games even).

That comparison doesn't make sense.

What is the NFL fan isn't in control of their teams performance. They lose nothing if they're team doesn't make the play-offs.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but with extraction shooters there is the risk of losing your gear, which is a direct risk to the player. Also, I understand that some of these games have insurance polices for players to protect their gear? Is that correct?

Anyway, I fail to see how any of this is like Mario 64. That was revolutionary for gaming. Extraction shooters appear to be predatory ways to extract more money from gamers.

 

[cormack12]

Aprt from Tarkvo, the Hunt and maybe DMZ there hasn't been enough decent Extraction shooters for the genre to become stale.

Or the market has rejected the genre, broadly speaking - Tarkov took years and built up a loyal community and probably benefitted from D2 dropping the ball with the DZ. It's here mainly because of attrition. We've had DMZ and Hazard Zone as well as countless other attempts. I see this as about as good as it gets. One really big Extraction shooter, a handful of other titles that have loyal, cultlike small supportive communities and that's it. This is saturation for me unless someone can redefine the genre mechanically.

It's like comparing survival mode to BRs - while BRs are healthy-ish but coalesced round a few high quality titles.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

That comparison doesn't make sense.

What is the NFL fan isn't in control of their teams performance. They lose nothing if they're team doesn't make the play-offs.

Why do you think being in control matters when it comes to risk/stakes? I could just as easily argue risk/stakes are less enjoyable when you're not in control. You have to support your theory with evidence. We have evidence that people invest less in their hometown football team (ticket sales, merchandise) when their team is bad). Hard to argue the human brain actually deciphers a difference.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but with extraction shooters there is the risk of losing your gear, which is a direct risk to the player. Also, I understand that some of these games have insurance polices for players to protect their gear? Is that correct?

Anyway, I fail to see how any of this is like Mario 64. That was revolutionary for gaming. Extraction shooters appear to be predatory ways to extract more money from gamers.

You are right, but again I point you towards the roguelite genre which gives you a small degree of progression between runs.

Again, read the OP. It's about the transition from session based gameplay loops to long form gameplay loops. Single player transitioned out of session based gameplay back in the 1980's due to technological advancements. Multiplayer is going through the same metamorphosis in core design. This is a massive leap. One that can not be understated.

 

[Calverz]

Extraction shooters were the next big thing after battle royale about 2 years ago. Escape from Tarkov, Vigor, DMZ in cod, rainbow six extraction etc

Trouble is people got bored of them all quick. They have gone back to traditional BR games for now.

Rainbow six extraction is dead, DMZ in cod is dead and not in the two most recent games, escape from tarkov still has a hardcore player base but nowhere near as big as it was and Vigor keeps ticking along but isn't doing big steam numbers.

Unfortunately for Marathon and Fairgame$, they are very late to the party and everyone has pretty much gone home.
The two games will need to be very VERY special to be successes.

 

[IDKFA]

. We have evidence that people invest less in their hometown football team (ticket sales, merchandise) when their team is bad). Hard to argue the human brain actually deciphers a difference.

Maybe in the USA where sports teams are just franchises. Here in England, football (soccer) is religion. I'll spend the same money on my CLUB regardless if we're in the Prem or bottom of league 2 fighting to remain a professional team. I've been to away days where it's the equivalent of a war. Phycoloigal warfare with chanting inside the ground and physical war outside. There is no "risk" for me if my club is winning or losing because I'll support my club to the death! No NFL, NBA, NHL or even MLS fan knows what that feels like.

Anyway, this clealry shows supporting a sports team is nothing like playing an extraction shooter. At all.

You are right, but again I point you towards the roguelite genre which gives you a small degree of progression between runs.

Again, read the OP. It's about the transition from session based gameplay loops to long form gameplay loops. Single player transitioned out of session based gameplay back in the 1980's due to technological advancements. Multiplayer is going through the same metamorphosis in core design. This is a massive leap. One that can not be understated.

Extraction shooters are a fad. A flash in the pan. Flavour of the month etc. No way is it like the revolutionary change of 2d to 3d gaming.

I'll gargle my own nuts if I'm wrong.

 

[Futaleufu]

What the hell is a "Mario 64 moment"?

 

[Guardian Monkey]

What the hell is a "Mario 64 moment"?

A term used to identify people under the age of 35. Joking aside, it is the commonly accepted game that moved 3d games into the mainstream with solid gameplay and graphics in the console world.

 

[Edgelord79]

Bungie better hope so.

 

[Guardian Monkey]

Bungie better hope so.

We haven’t even seen any gameplay of this as far as I am aware.We don’t even know what this is other than “extraction shooter”. It seems like the game has been pushed back some, who knows if they have changed some direction. Also, Bungie isn’t some stagnate thing, even though they have made some great series in the past, but nothing is guaranteed moving forward, we just don’t know.

 

[Futaleufu]

A term used to identify people under the age of 35. Joking aside, it is the commonly accepted game that moved 3d games into the mainstream with solid gameplay and graphics in the console world.

So Doom and Daytona USA never happened? Or even the 3DO or the PS1?
I bet those "mario 64 moment" people were the first in queue to buy Nintendo branded cardboard.

 

[Guardian Monkey]

So Doom and Daytona USA never happened? Or even the 3DO or the PS1?
I bet those "mario 64 moment" people were the first in queue to buy Nintendo branded cardboard.

I’m not asking the question of what it is. Per here is a ChatGPT response to clarify.

The “Mario 64 moment” is a term that fans and critics often use to describe a game that feels revolutionary, just as Super Mario 64 did when it launched in 1996. Super Mario 64 was one of the first games to make full use of 3D gameplay in a way that felt intuitive, with a fully explorable world and a new style of movement. Its camera controls, 3D platforming mechanics, and open-world exploration were groundbreaking and set the standard for 3D games.

So, when people refer to a “Mario 64 moment,” they mean a game that introduces a major leap forward in design or technology, reshaping how players interact with virtual worlds or pushing the boundaries of what’s possible in gaming. This kind of moment goes beyond simply creating a great game; it’s about redefining a genre or setting a new benchmark that inspires other games.

 

[Bernardougf]

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

The list of “session based vs long form” MP titles in the OP is funny because the two “long form” MP titles are MMO’s that have been out for 14 years in the case of FF and 20 years in the case of WoW. So this “shift to long form MP” stems from two games that aren’t really traditional MP games and have been out for decades

I also just noticed where OP said the objective in extraction games isn’t to kill other players. That’s false. These games pretty much all reward you with much better progression if you kill enemy players. It’s also one of the best ways to get better gear. Take Hunt for example. You can drop into a game solo and try to sneak around avoiding other players but 1, the game will be boring as fuck and 2, you won’t get any bounties in most cases because other players will be going for it and even if you somehow kill a boss solo and get the bounty, now everyone on the map knows where you are and they all want to kill you to get your bounty.

Even if you aren’t holding a bounty, if they see you they’ll want to kill you because it gives a lot of XP and they can loot your body for cash and tools and take your weapons if they are better.

Extraction shooters are still very much PvP at their core.

 

[Woopah]

How are you defining "session based" here?

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

The list of “session based vs long form” MP titles in the OP is funny because the two “long form” MP titles are MMO’s that have been out for 14 years in the case of FF and 20 years in the case of WoW. So this “shift to long form MP” stems from two games that aren’t really traditional MP games and have been out for decades

Solid observation but for the transition to really get into gear, it needed to find a more approachable PvP centered genre. WoW and FFXIV don't really appeal to the types of players who play Fortnite, CSGO, Warzone etc... The Extraction Shooter genre will deliver us.

I also just noticed where OP said the objective in extraction games isn’t to kill other players. That’s false.

Nope. It's to extract from the map safely with new gear in hand. You can chain numerous successful runs together without fighting other players. The level, or temperature, of PvP gameplay is decided on by each games developer. If a developer understands the concept of Bartles Taxonomy of Player Types, as I'm sure Bungie does, they'll provide avenues for different types of players to see success in their game. That's why of all the upcoming ES games, Marathon casts the biggest shadow. Character classes was a brilliant idea.

Extraction shooters are still very much PvP at their core.

Just as Fortnite and CSGO are PvP to their core. Only the ES genre gives players a wider variety of strategies to use to achieve success.

Maybe in the USA where sports teams are just franchises. Here in England, football (soccer) is religion. I'll spend the same money on my CLUB regardless if we're in the Prem or bottom of league 2 fighting to remain a professional team. I've been to away days where it's the equivalent of a war. Phycoloigal warfare with chanting inside the ground and physical war outside. There is no "risk" for me if my club is winning or losing because I'll support my club to the death! No NFL, NBA, NHL or even MLS fan knows what that feels like.

You don't represent the majority though. I can assure you that Premier League teams see an increase in merchandise sales when the team is viewed as moving in the right direction. Human nature doesn't change.

Anyway, this clealry shows supporting a sports team is nothing like playing an extraction shooter. At all.

Both show massive populations are attracted to games of high risk / stakes.

Extraction shooters are a fad. A flash in the pan. Flavour of the month etc. No way is it like the revolutionary change of 2d to 3d gaming.

I'm sure you said this about Fortnite and Battle Royale as well. You should wipe the egg off your face first before you move on to the next big thing. Like BR, the template is too impressive not to explode.

I'll gargle my own nuts

 

[IDKFA]

You don't represent the majority though. I can assure you that Premier League teams see an increase in merchandise sales when the team is viewed as moving in the right direction. Human nature doesn't change.

Please. Man Utd have been dog shit for years and haven't won a title since 2012, yet they're still the second highest grossing team in the Prem.

Both show massive populations are attracted to games of high risk / stakes.

But there is no risk for the NFL fan. The risk is with the team who would generate less revenue if they perform badly.

Every year millions of men have unprotected one night stands, which although enjoyable, also increases the risk of catching a STI.

Holy shit! Extraction shooters and fucking a random women bareback are now comparable! See the issue here?

I'm sure you said this about Fortnite and Battle Royale as well. You should wipe the egg off your face first before you move on to the next big thing. Like BR, the template is too impressive not to explode.

Fortnite is popular, but how many other Battle Royale games share the same success? Are we drowning in BR games? No.

Looks like I won't be gargling my nuts any time soon.

Checkmate.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Please. Man Utd have been dog shit for years and haven't won a title since 2012, yet they're still the second highest grossing team in the Prem.

The Dallas Cowboys have been bad for over a decade and they're one of the NFLs highest earning teams too. All teams benefit from being good. The reason why teams spend tons of money on skilled players is because teams know those players will bring in more money than they cost. This is business 101.

But there is no risk for the NFL fan. The risk is with the team who would generate less revenue if they perform badly.

Fans don't like going to losing games. Losing is unpleasant. This existence of this phenomenon isn't really debatable.

Holy shit! Extraction shooters and fucking a random women bareback are now comparable! See the issue here?

You're starting to jump the shark here.

Fortnite is popular, but how many other Battle Royale games share the same success? Are we drowning in BR games? No.

This is a single player gamer mentality. As the Extraction Shooter genre "blows up", that doesn't mean we'll be drowning in games like y'all are with Souls likes. It just means two or three new Extraxtion games will succeed and grab a significant percentage of the gaming population. It will be similar to what happened with BR.

The Extraction Shooter is inevitable. Take it from someone who was enamored with BR before Fortnite released. I understand PvP. I'm sorry that offends you.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Solid observation but for the transition to really get into gear, it needed to find a more approachable PvP centered genre. WoW and FFXIV don't really appeal to the types of players who play Fortnite, CSGO, Warzone etc... The Extraction Shooter genre will deliver us.


Nope. It's to extract from the map safely with new gear in hand. You can chain numerous successful runs together without fighting other players. The level, or temperature, of PvP gameplay is decided on by each games developer. If a developer understands the concept of Bartles Taxonomy of Player Types, as I'm sure Bungie does, they'll provide avenues for different types of players to see success in their game. That's why of all the upcoming ES games, Marathon casts the biggest shadow. Character classes was a brilliant idea.


Just as Fortnite and CSGO are PvP to their core. Only the ES genre gives players a wider variety of strategies to use to achieve success..

Yeah no offense but you come off as someone who’s only experience with extraction games are very shallow ones like Division or CoD. Everything I just quoted here is nonsense. Good luck though, eventually you have to be right about something.

 

[Dr_Ifto]

Until Fortnite adds an extraction shooter mode and then consumes everything

 

[IDKFA]

You're starting to jump the shark here.

Lol.

You used NFL as evidence that extraction shooters will have their "Mario 64" moment. How is that any different to comparing it to one night stands? They're both insane comparisons.

The Extraction Shooter is inevitable. Take it from someone who was enamored with BR before Fortnite released. I understand PvP. I'm sorry that offends you.

It doesn't offend me, but I find it hard to trust somebody who thought Concord was going to be gaming equivalent of the second coming of Christ.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

You used NFL as evidence that extraction shooters will have their "Mario 64" moment. How is that any different to comparing it to one night stands? They're both insane comparisons.

No, I used the NFL as evidence that people are innately attracted to high stakes and consequence. The Mario 64 moment was referring to the shift out of session based gaming into long form multiplayer. This was explained in the OP and then reiterated numerous times in the thread.

It doesn't offend me, but I find it hard to trust somebody who thought Concord was going to be gaming equivalent of the second coming of Christ.

You're mistaken there too. (A pattern emerges)

 

[IDKFA]

You're mistaken there too. (A pattern emerges)

Those were the vibes I was getting.

Concord will be bigger than every game listed in the OP.

Concord will wipe out 80 percent of the intelligentsia on GAF. This poll will be a massacre that historians say was more horrific than Custards Last Stand.

That's a Concorde.

A concord is an agreement or harmony between groups. Concord is a PvP FPS game making it one of the most creative games we've had in a long time.

The year is 2029. The F2P game Concord is readying the release of its 12 season despite the internet proclaiming it "DOA". The people will not learn. Nothing new under the sun.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Those were the vibes I was getting.

All pre gameplay reveal comments?

 

[IDKFA]

All pre gameplay reveal comments?

I haven't seen much gameplay from Marathon, yet here we are. Isn't that also a Marathon avatar I see as well?

 

[Bernardougf]

Those were the vibes I was getting.

Im shocked... shocked I say.

 

[Danjin44]

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I haven't seen much gameplay from Marathon, yet here we are. Isn't that also a Marathon avatar I see as well?

The big difference (the one that you missed) is that we didn't know what genre Concord was at the time. I logically assumed it would take inspiration from Fortnite/PUBG, instead it took inspiration from Overwatch. An error that shows logic and rational mindedness. We do know what genre Marathon falls under.

Concord was a SESSION BASED multiplayer game...and died.
Marathon is a LONG FORM multiplayer game...____________.

 

[nowhat]

I logically assumed it would take inspiration from Fortnite/PUBG, instead it took inspiration from Overwatch. An error that shows logic and rational mindedness.

I'll have to copy this. Instead of taking the L like I should, it was just "an error that shows logic and rational mindedness".

 

[IDKFA]

The big difference (the one that you missed) is that we didn't know what genre Concord was at the time. I logically assumed it would take inspiration from Fortnite/PUBG, instead it took inspiration from Overwatch. An error that shows logic and rational mindedness. We do know what genre Marathon falls under.

Concord was a SESSION BASED multiplayer game...and died.
Marathon is a LONG FORM multiplayer game...____________.

How was it logical to assume this would follow Fortnite/PUBG as a BR game? It was announced as a multiplayer PVP FPS. With that vague description It was just as likely to be an Overwatch clone. You made an assumption and got it wrong.

And on that note, I think we're done here.

 

[Mossybrew]

Well I will say I think the genre still has a lot of untapped potential. Looking forward to seeing how Arc Raiders and Marathon turn out.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

How was it logical to assume this would follow Fortnite/PUBG as a BR game? It was announced as a multiplayer PVP FPS. With that vague description It was just as likely to be an Overwatch clone. You made an assumption and got it wrong.

PUBG and Fortnite exploded in 2017 and lit the fuse for the GAAS industry revolution.

Concord gets funded in 2018.

Why would anyone expect Concord to take inspiration from 2016s Overwatch?

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Those were the vibes I was getting.

Damn you slaughtered him.

The year is 2029. The F2P game Concord is readying the release of its 12 season despite the internet proclaiming it "DOA". The people will not learn. Nothing new under the sun.

This one is especially hilarious. Season 12 five years after release. Would it have even made it to season 12 if every season was one day?

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Hunt Showdown is the best extraction shooter around.

Hunt: Showdown is probably one of my favorite games of all time AND I'M TIRED OF PRETENDING IT'S NOT!

Nice OP. Especially the first sentences.

Personally, after I came into contact with Hunt: Showdown I can't enjoy other MP shooters anymore. The adrenalin, atmosphere and thrill is unrivaled by anything I've played (BF, Insurgency, CoD, Valorant, OW). Only thing that comes close despite not being an extraction shooter is Hell Let Loose. Holy cow but this is only playable with a team that exactly knows what it's doing.

I need one of you guys to explain Hunt to me. I’ve put about 10 hours into it over the last few weeks and I’m flabbergasted why it’s so popular. I feel like 95% of my playtime is slowly walking towards my next objective and 5% of my playtime is (admittedly cool) PvP combat. I don’t get a strong sense of progressing my character because the base weapons seem relatively powerful and there isn’t many enticing “gadgets” for me to save up for.

Walking slowly towards my next objective doesn’t get my blood pumping like it does from Vigor, which is a way less popular game.

What do you start to understand at hour 50 that I’m not seeing at hour 10?

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

You don't have to walk slowly anywhere. You can run, you just have to stay alert and try not to trigger any of the wildlife or other audio things like the branches you can snap. Or don't worry about that at all, a lot of people run at all times and welcome other players to try and take them out. You can also run to quickly gather clues for the boss and take out the boss before any other players can get to you and then extract before you have to deal with other players, since you said you wanted that option.

The base weapons are fine but you do unlock more powerful weapons as you level up. You also want to extract with bounties a lot or kill other players and loot them because that gets you more money and the better weapons and gear costs money. You also have tools that unlock as you level up, and traits. If you want to play slow, some of the most powerful solo traits are unlocked last as you progress.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

You don't have to walk slowly anywhere. You can run, you just have to stay alert and try not to trigger any of the wildlife or other audio things like the branches you can snap.

The “running” in Hunt Showdown might be the slowest sprint in any PvP game I’ve ever played. I don’t mind slow either, it’s just that 10 hours in, I have nothing else to think about / consider as I’m “sprinting” to my next location. The sound alarms feel like a nuisance more than an actual threat. The running in Valorant is pretty slow but the choke point you’re running to is usually only 20 seconds away. The rest of that gameplay is tense corner peaking.

Or don't worry about that at all, a lot of people run at all times and welcome other players to try and take them out. You can also run to quickly gather clues for the boss and take out the boss before any other players can get to you and then extract before you have to deal with other players, since you said you wanted that option.

The base weapons are fine but you do unlock more powerful weapons as you level up. You also want to extract with bounties a lot or kill other players and loot them because that gets you more money and the better weapons and gear costs money. You also have tools that unlock as you level up, and traits. If you want to play slow, some of the most powerful solo traits are unlocked last as you progress.

I appreciate this write up. It sounds like I’m just having a hard time getting a feel for the gun upgrades, traits, and map cues. Almost as if my ignorance is making the experience feel flat.

I’ll definitely put more hours into it to see if I catch on. It’s just interesting to compare it to Vigor which grabbed me immediately.

 

[EruditeHobo]

There's no reason to compare anything to Mario 64, especially in terms of a "Mario 64 moment", ever again. It doesn't make sense.

Gaming is so much more interesting than sales charts and CEO platitudes.

... but you're the one appealing to sales? Your argument (if you can call it that) is directly about what is "popular". And one of the biggest problems with your "Mario 64 moment" comparison thing is that was based on a confluence of factors -- innovation in gameplay, advancing the perspective on what the genre was capable of, sure, but also it happened on the cusp of a graphical and game design revolution as 3D came into the commercial gaming space for good.

So. The comparison fails -- tweaking or refining a well-trod gameplay trope/genre/whatever is not all that much of an innovation, and there is no accompanying explosion in terms of tech or design that acts as a multiplier to provide that "moment" to which you seem to be referring.

Either way, I'm sure you'll like whatever game this is. You seem to like lots of these kinds of games. I see very little reason to think this is going to be as successful as you seem to be saying, much less some kind of revolution within the medium.

I wrote this before reading the ChatGPT rebuttal post, but honestly that does a pretty thorough job.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

There's no reason to compare anything to Mario 64, especially in terms of a "Mario 64 moment", ever again. It doesn't make sense.

It’s a useful comparison to get people thinking about the next potential paradigm shift in the medium we all love.

... but you're the one appealing to sales? Your argument (if you can call it that) is directly about what is "popular". And one of the biggest problems with your "Mario 64 moment" comparison thing is that was based on a confluence of factors -- innovation in gameplay, advancing the perspective on what the genre was capable of, sure, but also it happened on the cusp of a graphical and game design revolution as 3D came into the commercial gaming space for good.

A croissant and a scone pull from different ingredients to form popular baked goods. Just because the ingredients are different doesn’t mean a comparison can’t be made.

I’m interested in what type of baked goods resonate with gamers, what type do gamers leave behind, and why.

And not to toot my own horn, but I was on BR (in a similar way) about two weeks after Fortnite first launched. I learned to trust my intuition over the mountains of “it’s a fad” comments that flooded the internet at the time.

So. The comparison fails -- tweaking or refining a well-trod gameplay trope/genre/whatever is not all that much of an innovation, and there is no accompanying explosion in terms of tech or design that acts as a multiplier to provide that "moment" to which you seem to be referring.

The first standalone Extraction Shooter was released in 2018 by a small, no name developer. If we’re calling THIS genre “well-trod” then words have lost all meaning. The 3D platformer is well trod. The racing genre is well trod. The fighting game is well trod. The Extraction Shooter is about as new a genre as the medium has right now. A genre that’s infinitely more complex than the 3 aforementioned genres. Added complexity means more time is going to be needed to crack the code.

The explosion in design that will act as a multiplier is the shift from session based gameplay loops to long form gameplay loops in the PvP context. That’s the magic that still has the birthing fluid covering its body.

Either way, I'm sure you'll like whatever game this is. You seem to like lots of these kinds of games. I see very little reason to think this is going to be as successful as you seem to be saying, much less some kind of revolution within the medium.

We’re four pages deep and not a single person attempted to refute the central thesis of the OP…Human beings prefer participating in long form narrative over session based narrative. Why do you think we saw a 100% avoidance?

You obviously see the impact on the single player side of things. Why wouldn’t we see a similar seismic impact on PvP?

I wrote this before reading the ChatGPT rebuttal post, but honestly that does a pretty thorough job.

I never read ChatGPT responses because I feel it’s used as a crutch for people who aren’t willing to engage in the conversation. I’m more interested in hearing from people who are open to new perspectives.

 

[Danjin44]

It’s a useful comparison to get people thinking about the next potential paradigm shift in the medium we all love.

You made this comparison one reason and one reason only…click bait, just like any fucking YouTuber.

 

[IAmRei]

Dude, mario 64 revolutioned game mechanic, same wirh zelda OOT, without them, there will be no correct way for 3d games, or there will be longer to found how 3D works as game. Might not trult the first but still acknowledged as the first father of correct way mechanic in 3d games. It's kind of fundamental. Just like 4 face button, shoulder button, also dual analog changes everything.

yet extraction shooter aint even founder of the genre and not even truly new mechanic, not even the first multiplayer. They are the derivative and development of multiplayer shooter...

 

[april6e]

 

[Filben]

I need one of you guys to explain Hunt to me. I’ve put about 10 hours into it over the last few weeks and I’m flabbergasted why it’s so popular. I feel like 95% of my playtime is slowly walking towards my next objective and 5% of my playtime is (admittedly cool) PvP combat. I don’t get a strong sense of progressing my character because the base weapons seem relatively powerful and there isn’t many enticing “gadgets” for me to save up for.

Walking slowly towards my next objective doesn’t get my blood pumping like it does from Vigor, which is a way less popular game.

What do you start to understand at hour 50 that I’m not seeing at hour 10?

Of course first and foremost, different tastes. I don't know Vigor so I can't make any comparison. Ultimately, if Hunt does nothing to do, it's okay to turn away despite other people loving it. If you're still willing to spend some time with it because you see the potential, then do so and maybe it'll click.

What I find primarily refreshing is the lack of meta information making the game otherwise too easy to read. For instance, there are no red dots on a map or compass pointing towards enemies/player hunter. You have to rely of in-world/universe senses, visuals and accustics. And because a single bullet could end your life you really want to rely on your senses and don't just run around headless and trigger every sound source in range.
Then you have a somewhat grounded setting (minus the zombies of course) with realistic weapons with which you can't spray and pray. So many things have to be done in a considered way: reloading, as it takes so much time (here you will sense some progression as you get traits that reduce e.g. crossbow reloading times, different gun models that have faster reload times but have other drawbacks... so progression is more of expanding your tools, options and make for a more dynamic gameplay opposed to straight vertical progression that makes simply everything better by numbers). Even ADSing emits sound as your character breathes which can be heard in a very quiet environment. Literally everything except turning in a spot and opening the map makes a sound.
The map design is full of intricacies and is highly complex which rewards good knowledge, allows for many options to approach, enter or fight on a compound/POI and also make them look very grounded and authentic and not like a video game level with everything carefully placed with people and cover in mind. It most certainly is, though, but you don't see it straight away because it is entangled with the environment so beautifully.
Also, the game is highly rewarding for strategic gameplay if you aren't the best flick or pixel shooter who does every headshot. You can use traps, the environment plus PvE elements, you can distract enemies in so many ways. In short, the game allows for some creative strategic combat that can gives you an edge.

Nothing is granted, though, in Hunt Showdown except for death.

Oh, and do yourself a favour and play with at least one buddy in duos. Better yet two buddies in trio mode. At the very least play with randoms but don't play solo as a beginner. Solo, duo and trio are vastly different gameplay experiences.

 

[EruditeHobo]

It’s a useful comparison to get people thinking about the next potential paradigm shift in the medium we all love.

It poisons the well, though. It's like comparing a 19 year old SG to Jordan, or expecting a rapper in 2025 to have the same kind of "moment" or influence as NWA / Dre... that confluence of factors to make that "moment" will literally never again be there! So no matter what the rest of your argument entails, it's not going to be comparable.

The explosion in design that will act as a multiplier is the shift from session based gameplay loops to long form gameplay loops in the PvP context. That’s the magic that still has the birthing fluid covering its body.

And I'm saying that's not an explosion, it's an iteration. Nothing on par with the most known, played, loved platformer of all time, THE icon for in-home console gaming, moving from 2D to 3D and absolutely sticking the landing.

We’re four pages deep and not a single person attempted to refute the central thesis of the OP…Human beings prefer participating in long form narrative over session based narrative. Why do you think we saw a 100% avoidance?

I haven't read every post here, but I highly doubt there was 100% avoidance. For me, I avoided it because there are much bigger issues with what you're saying IMO.

But if you were asking for responses to that specific point, for me it's simple... that conclusion is very assumptive, poorly evidenced, and based on very lazy thinking. Appealing to a very selective small sample of data regarding sales/popularity over the years, no matter how accurate/true that is, to use that as a gigantic blanket statement to cover the preferences of "human beings" is completely silly.

I never read ChatGPT responses because I feel it’s used as a crutch for people who aren’t willing to engage in the conversation. I’m more interested in hearing from people who are open to new perspectives.

Suggest you give that one a look, AI or no it does a pretty good job on successfully refuting most of what's suggested by your initial post.

 

[Nonehxc]

The People has spoken.

 

[bender]

Good luck though, eventually you have to be right about something.

 

[SlicedBread3]

The Extraction Shooter is gamings new "Mario 64 moment". A hack media outlet use this term on an Astro Bot Rescue Mission back in 2018. That milk is now chunky and black.

Pretty sure the term has been around longer then that. But yeah I agree with said outlet. Rescue Mission is the closest to that feeling since 64, even if it largely went unnoticed. If we're talking about going from session based to long form then something like "Legend of Zelda" moment would be more appropriate imo.

As far as PvP session based to long form goes, I kind of think Call of Duty 4 was that moment and that was a large reason (though not the only one) behind it's success.

 

[blacktout]

I can't vote on anything since you screwed up typing "OP makes some daft arguments".

I unironically voted for that option thinking this is what it said and then was confused by how few others had.

 

[Tarnpanzer]

This genre has a lot of potential but I have yet to see a good casual ES.

Everything released so far was either too hardcore(Tarkov) or just not good at all(CoD DMZ).

Getting the economy right for this genre is extremely tricky. -> risk & reward, i.e. what to bring from your vault when moving out. Maybe they should have some RPG-Elements for this, i.e. you need to get some good gear first to progress to the next zone with more difficult encounters but better rewards. Make it an addicting loop to progress further but also have the chance to really lose something when you die.