LaughingStock
Member
Just watched the speech scene. Holy mother of cringe.
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DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
Agreed!
J
JeremyEtcetera
Unconfirmed Member
The first half felt too rushed. Bucky/Falcon and Walker peacing up so fast from last episode felt like whiplash. This should have been split into two episodes(to make the Walker stuff feel less forced and fast) somehow but I'm not sure how they could have done it.
Yoboman
Member
I thought they satisfyingly wrapped up all the story arcs,
That said the last episode action was incredibly weak compared to the standard they set in episode 1. The climax to episode 5 was a lot better than episode 6
Overall the series lacked a real antagonist and I never bought into Karli being a leader of anybody and the fact we only ever saw like 6 of them on screen made it hard to buy as any sort of movement. Maybe there were bigger plans there but COVID got in the way
Also
The Walker arc was good and I’d like to see him more in the series. The actor was quite good
I liked that they really made Falcon earn the mantle of Captain America and by the end I bought into it & happy to see him as Cap going forward
That said the last episode action was incredibly weak compared to the standard they set in episode 1. The climax to episode 5 was a lot better than episode 6
Overall the series lacked a real antagonist and I never bought into Karli being a leader of anybody and the fact we only ever saw like 6 of them on screen made it hard to buy as any sort of movement. Maybe there were bigger plans there but COVID got in the way
Also
the Powerbroker twist was just lame and after all the build up it really fell flat. I don’t buy Sharon Carter’s actor being anything interesting. She is a C-List background character actor who got out acted by an MMA star so not sure why they are propping her up
The Walker arc was good and I’d like to see him more in the series. The actor was quite good
and I like that they didn’t go full predictable villain with him.
ManaByte
Banned
The follow up movie was just announced.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
And it is gonna be dope. They have set up an amazing pair in Sam and Bucky
Croatoan
They/Them A-10 Warthog
So sam wants to get rid of borders? Like what in the actuall fuck? His whole speech was the cringiest pandering hot garbage I have heard in a while. If the movie is more "white people bad"/ "let the illegals in" propaganda i will be skipping my first marvel movie.
I can handle the racial stuff, and agree with some of it, but the political garbage turns me off quick.
I can handle the racial stuff, and agree with some of it, but the political garbage turns me off quick.
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ManaByte
Banned
Yea comparing reality to an Earth where 3 billion people vanished for five years doesn’t really help your point.
bitbydeath
Gold Member
Trying to understand what that means is the trickest part. A lot of borders in our world wouldn’t budge because of differing beliefs/religions between them.
It’s a nice thought though.
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Croatoan
They/Them A-10 Warthog
That speech was about our worlds problems just as much as it was about the MCUs problems. And the writer's solution is do better, and borders shouldn't exist.
Its commentary from the writers on how the United States should abolish its borders and let who ever wants to live here move in. I mean, the flag smashers are the name of the group for God's sake.
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bitbydeath
Gold Member
I thought it was referring to all world borders.
Streamline everything for one world, one people.
Basically world peace.
Hatemachine
Banned
Anyone care to provide a quick summary of the show? I haven't watched since the first episode and I don't think I care to
Croatoan
They/Them A-10 Warthog
World communism is more like it.
Croatoan
They/Them A-10 Warthog
Black people have it hard. Wealthy countries need to do better. We should all abolish borders and sing kumbaya because reasons.
Lupingosei
Banned
Half of the world returned 5 years after the snap. People want their stuff back because for them no time has passed. Some terrorists say: nope, that is all ours now, lol. Falcon thinks they have a point and nobody offers a solution to anything, but they talk a lot about it. Most characters don't want to take responsibility until they do and then again they don't. In the end, we are all reminded to do better, without offering a solution.
J
JeremyEtcetera
Unconfirmed Member
I've never seen someone jump so far over a point for the sake of comparing it to real life, that they lose track of the original point and how it mainly connects only to the MCU.
The voice of reason.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
I thought the series started strong but never could keep the story going in way that felt interesting.
You could see some things coming a mile away and while everything is wrapped up, it's not wrapped up in a way that's satisfying at all for me.
It suffers, for me at least, in that marvel always feels like it's just trying to build to the next thing. Which isnt bad if it's told correctly but this felt like one big arc to get to the next movie.
I didn't like John at all.
I liked the idea of there being real consequences to having 3 billion people disappear and I'm confused why that wasn't more of the focus and instead was on super serum and Karlie. It just isn't interesting to me.
But Falcon and Winter Solider really saved it. They are phenomenal characters and I want way more of them and less of everything else.
Worth a watch but disappointed honestly.
You could see some things coming a mile away and while everything is wrapped up, it's not wrapped up in a way that's satisfying at all for me.
It suffers, for me at least, in that marvel always feels like it's just trying to build to the next thing. Which isnt bad if it's told correctly but this felt like one big arc to get to the next movie.
I didn't like John at all.
I liked the idea of there being real consequences to having 3 billion people disappear and I'm confused why that wasn't more of the focus and instead was on super serum and Karlie. It just isn't interesting to me.
But Falcon and Winter Solider really saved it. They are phenomenal characters and I want way more of them and less of everything else.
Worth a watch but disappointed honestly.
J
JeremyEtcetera
Unconfirmed Member
I think Marvel is still too scared to release a movie or show that doesn't involve fights or a bad guy. I still think that Iron Man 2 didn't need a villain either, but it is what it is. 3/4 of Wandavision was a small step into that pool for them at least.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
I really liked wanda vision until the last two episodes.
sol_bad
Member
The meaning is that there were no borders during the blip and the world was working together. Once half the population returned they were trying to re-establish the borders and "control" the populace.
Sam wants the world to stay as it was during the blip, everyone helping each other.
No idea why other people are whinging about real world politics in here. Yeah, it would be great if the real world had peace and no borders and it's something the world has slowly working towards. But you need to think of what Sam wants in context of what has happened in the MCUs reality.
Kraz
Member
While Sam's speech doesn't solve anything for MCU Earth it represents starting a conversation that needed to be had. Sam knows a lot of what he's saying he's talking out his ass, but also knows they are too. Something is wrong and needs to be solved. Start everyone kicking over rocks and pulling threads.
He has blind spots he's not aware of and the show went to some effort to show that.
He has blind spots he's not aware of and the show went to some effort to show that.
Quietly reinstated and given a new role was perfect. Much better than another unimaginative vigilante. With all the factions there's a good possibility for some conflict with Sam when he's on mission, like taking out the Power Broker due to some stolen tech.
HoodWinked
Member
this final episode is kind of a mess. it feels like the finale for game of thrones where they had some ideas for what they wanted for the ending but all the connective tissue between is so poorly written and executed.
bitbydeath
Gold Member
That’s very vague, how were they working together? What did it achieve?
sol_bad
Member
We don't know any of those details. Which is a shame. We know people like Hayward from Wandavision we're unhappy during the blip. Others were very happy during the blip.
Hopefully one of the shows or movies take place during the blip so we see what it was really like.
bitbydeath
Gold Member
Which is why I said trying to understand what it means is the trickiest part, there were no details provided on what working together even means and Sam supporting it was stupid since he wasn’t even around to see what it was like.
He just fell for terrorist propaganda.
All we know is they wanted (1 world, 1 people) which sounds a lot like what Hitler was striving to achieve.
I once asked someone for a costed out funding for Universal Basic Income and they told me that the issues were "too important for my math".
That's basically Sam's argument. He admits he doesn't fully understand the issues but claims his ignorance is a virtue, so things like math, funding, logistics, don't distract him from what is right. To use his example, just send an email, food just appears and a million people are fed. It's only been 6 months to a year since the population suddenly doubled and the world is obviously working together through the GRC to make some sense of it but because some people aren't happy, the plan is bad and bad plans justify terrorism.
The Flagsmashers are more reminiscent to me of The Red Army Faction in Germany.
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J
JeremyEtcetera
Unconfirmed Member
As Sam has said in the show, it's how you go about doing it that matters. And Hitler went about doing it in the worst possible way.
Shouta
Member
I liked the finale but it definitely could have used another episode to explore some things a bit more. I really liked Sam's speech but it also felt like it was a bit heavy-handed because they didn't really explore the situation before and after the blip quite as much as they could have. If they had, it would make everything he said land a bit better. The action choreography with him was great though. I loved the creative use of his wings and shield.
Bucky's story arc and resolution was great. I'm pretty interested in where they'll go with his character. Same with Walker as US Agent.
Bucky's story arc and resolution was great. I'm pretty interested in where they'll go with his character. Same with Walker as US Agent.
J
JeremyEtcetera
Unconfirmed Member
Small parts of it(the good parts) came from one of Anthony Mackie's best interviews.
He's also had some great perspectives on cinema.
bitbydeath
Gold Member
Agreed. Sam accepting that ideology without trying to grasp ramifications is the stupid part.
Toons
Member
Sams message wasnt to ERASE THE BORDERS
He ASKED the senators to strongly consider how their actions would be affecting less fortunate folks before they wantonly forced things back the way they were before. In the very first epsiode post blip Sam has to quickly save an American hostage before the priates cross a border, so clearly borders are already present and thats not what he was referring to.
He ASKED the senators to strongly consider how their actions would be affecting less fortunate folks before they wantonly forced things back the way they were before. In the very first epsiode post blip Sam has to quickly save an American hostage before the priates cross a border, so clearly borders are already present and thats not what he was referring to.
ManaByte
Banned
I like how Mackie also calls out clickbait websites. That is an epic story.
So Collider deceptively edited a video of Mackie to make it look like he was trashing Man of Steel:
Mackie held a grudge and brought it up in junkets over the years:
Until one day Marvel sat him down for a junket interview with the guy who edited the video and Mackie laid into him for 4 minutes straight:
Frosty convinced Disney to delete the video of Mackie attacking him and as a result he's banned from every interviewing him again. So now the owner of one of the biggest film sites can never interview Captain America.
sol_bad
Member
Isn't the government just as stupid for not thinking of the ramifications of their knee jerk reaction to getting rid of immigrants?
cormack12
Gold Member
I think generally you have to lower your expectations with these types of shows, and judge them on their own merits. They're trying to be an 'everyman' of appeal and cross demographics with generations, so some things are just not going to land. The Mandalorian did a much better job of this but even that had some sketchy scenes.
For me, if Wandavision was an 8/10, this was a 7/10. I thought it finished weaker and lost a lot of the heart/poignancy that Wandavision had. That doesn't mean it's a bad show - I didn't even mind Karli that much if I'm being honest as a kind of dumb, idealistic kid with supes blood.
It got noticeably schizophrenic in Episode 7 (I think it was), no idea what that stupid montage of fixing up the boat was with Buckie walking round smiling like he's in Hobbiton with no worries. The Baywatch style music in the background was equally a big swing and miss. That scene and the ending scene of the BBQ from Episode 8 felt like from an entirely different show. I was just there thinking it was if the A-Team spent an afternoon in the workshop with no local militia to fight against.
The statue scene with Isaiah was good and touching. Was nice he got his memorial. The suit was a bit meh, agree with others on the hood part. It's our first black captain america - sweet let's stick a white sock on his face and neck!!! I think the tech bridging the gaps that a non-super serum John Walker couldn't is a good call. He's not superhuman but he has abilities beyond physical he can call upon.
The speech was honestly terrible to the senator. Idealistically, not really an issue but the delivery and the lack of response to the challenge was just reminiscent of these twitter rants people go on, a valid point is raised then it just goes into empathy/virtuosity rants instead of providing an answer. It's very much - we need to do something different, and despite the massive problem you've just raised and the fact there are no answers we need to do something different. By the way I have no suggestions and this will be hard. Lt's all cheer now and look at me doe eyed.
I don't read the comics but I get the core argument as presented was:
Snap happened, millions of people disappeared.
Immigrants came to backfill the lack of skills/populations/trades - leave ethinicity aside as an issue because if 50% of CA disappeared then they would need just as many people wo could come from TX or OH to plug those gaps. The world has lost people, not simply redistributed them.
Snap was rolled back, those millions of people reappeared with a blank in time.
Those people went back 'home' (as they understand it) and see other people living there and are now homeless etc.
I don't know what happened with mortgage transfers or bank loans so we will have to park that for the purposes of discussion.
So the option is to give back to the people who were 'snapped' what they owned and their life. They've done nothing wrong. the upshot of that is that those who picked up the slack need to be pushed back where they came from originally to presumably restart their industries. Its an indelicate but obvious solution.
At this point, you need a better solution. So what's the better solution here? All the people unsnapped get pushed out elsewhere? This isn't a magic world, there are finite resources, there are finite transit systems and infrastructure, there are finite bodies of water and room for expansion. One of those groups of people is getting bad news, and it needs to be acted on very quickly.
It doesn't matter which one you choose here for your 'side', the point is unless you come up with an alternative you are advocating to displace millions of people. You are either shipping unsnapped people off (and likely a large portion of these will be 2nd/3rd generation immigrants themselves), or sending immigrants since the snap back to their original lives before it happened.
Of those two choices which is the fairest? Or more reasonable? Or provide an alternative......which actually works to sort the short term, medium term and long term issues of this predicament.
The alternative
Having said all that, and again I don't read the comics, can't Ant man just shrink everyone and they live in a new world like the critically acclaimed 'Downsizing' starring Matt Damon?
For me, if Wandavision was an 8/10, this was a 7/10. I thought it finished weaker and lost a lot of the heart/poignancy that Wandavision had. That doesn't mean it's a bad show - I didn't even mind Karli that much if I'm being honest as a kind of dumb, idealistic kid with supes blood.
It got noticeably schizophrenic in Episode 7 (I think it was), no idea what that stupid montage of fixing up the boat was with Buckie walking round smiling like he's in Hobbiton with no worries. The Baywatch style music in the background was equally a big swing and miss. That scene and the ending scene of the BBQ from Episode 8 felt like from an entirely different show. I was just there thinking it was if the A-Team spent an afternoon in the workshop with no local militia to fight against.
The statue scene with Isaiah was good and touching. Was nice he got his memorial. The suit was a bit meh, agree with others on the hood part. It's our first black captain america - sweet let's stick a white sock on his face and neck!!! I think the tech bridging the gaps that a non-super serum John Walker couldn't is a good call. He's not superhuman but he has abilities beyond physical he can call upon.
The speech was honestly terrible to the senator. Idealistically, not really an issue but the delivery and the lack of response to the challenge was just reminiscent of these twitter rants people go on, a valid point is raised then it just goes into empathy/virtuosity rants instead of providing an answer. It's very much - we need to do something different, and despite the massive problem you've just raised and the fact there are no answers we need to do something different. By the way I have no suggestions and this will be hard. Lt's all cheer now and look at me doe eyed.
I don't read the comics but I get the core argument as presented was:
Snap happened, millions of people disappeared.
Immigrants came to backfill the lack of skills/populations/trades - leave ethinicity aside as an issue because if 50% of CA disappeared then they would need just as many people wo could come from TX or OH to plug those gaps. The world has lost people, not simply redistributed them.
Snap was rolled back, those millions of people reappeared with a blank in time.
Those people went back 'home' (as they understand it) and see other people living there and are now homeless etc.
I don't know what happened with mortgage transfers or bank loans so we will have to park that for the purposes of discussion.
So the option is to give back to the people who were 'snapped' what they owned and their life. They've done nothing wrong. the upshot of that is that those who picked up the slack need to be pushed back where they came from originally to presumably restart their industries. Its an indelicate but obvious solution.
At this point, you need a better solution. So what's the better solution here? All the people unsnapped get pushed out elsewhere? This isn't a magic world, there are finite resources, there are finite transit systems and infrastructure, there are finite bodies of water and room for expansion. One of those groups of people is getting bad news, and it needs to be acted on very quickly.
It doesn't matter which one you choose here for your 'side', the point is unless you come up with an alternative you are advocating to displace millions of people. You are either shipping unsnapped people off (and likely a large portion of these will be 2nd/3rd generation immigrants themselves), or sending immigrants since the snap back to their original lives before it happened.
Of those two choices which is the fairest? Or more reasonable? Or provide an alternative......which actually works to sort the short term, medium term and long term issues of this predicament.
The alternative
Having said all that, and again I don't read the comics, can't Ant man just shrink everyone and they live in a new world like the critically acclaimed 'Downsizing' starring Matt Damon?
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Fbh
Gold Member
Finale was rather disappointing.
I generally hate when shows stretch on for too long but can't help but think this would have been better with an extra episode
- IMO Walker could have gotten a better ending and should have been a bigger part of the finale. Him just showing up, helping, and having zero friction with Sam/Bucky was weird. Though I'm glad they didn't just turn him into a generic bad guy. Will be interesting to see what he does on team Seinfeld.
- The action wasn't very good. Was hoping the action in the finale to match the one in the opening of the show, but it didn't.
- The speech was cringe as hell. "These guys that just abducted you and were about to set the truck on fire and burn you alive....yeah don't call them terrorists!". Felt like the usual empty idealist speech of "do better", though I guess it sort of fits the character of Captain America
- I also don't know why they keep doubling down on race as if the show was somehow taking place in the 60's.
- The Sharon twist was silly.
Overall still an enjoyable show, but it definitely deflated towards the end. I enjoyed Wanda Vision more.
I generally hate when shows stretch on for too long but can't help but think this would have been better with an extra episode
- IMO Walker could have gotten a better ending and should have been a bigger part of the finale. Him just showing up, helping, and having zero friction with Sam/Bucky was weird. Though I'm glad they didn't just turn him into a generic bad guy. Will be interesting to see what he does on team Seinfeld.
- The action wasn't very good. Was hoping the action in the finale to match the one in the opening of the show, but it didn't.
- The speech was cringe as hell. "These guys that just abducted you and were about to set the truck on fire and burn you alive....yeah don't call them terrorists!". Felt like the usual empty idealist speech of "do better", though I guess it sort of fits the character of Captain America
- I also don't know why they keep doubling down on race as if the show was somehow taking place in the 60's.
- The Sharon twist was silly.
Overall still an enjoyable show, but it definitely deflated towards the end. I enjoyed Wanda Vision more.
Finale felt rushed, flag smashers were idiots "Apart from the people I want to kill, I don't want to kill anyone" 100 LOGIC. Sam however kicked ass and took on a lot of Captain America's ideology in the right way, yeah the speech was a little cringy in your face, but everything else around that was great. Bucky got closure and can now evolve into this MCU version of White Wolf since that seems to be the direction they're heading with him. Sharon being the power broker was very U WOT M8!?
BouncyFrag
Member
Zemo’s butler getting it done, lol.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
"And by the way don't call me Sharon anymore, my real name is.."
"Karen"
The good looking BBQ Becky
Shouta
Member
That's the issue with the situation in the end. If you give back all of the property to the people that got blipped or you leave it as is, millions of people are displaced. Unilaterally disenfranchising that many folks causes problems and there's got to be a better solution that they can work on. Sam's speech is pretty much that. He's not saying that it needs to stay like it is now nor does he have a perfect answer but we should at least try to help everyone instead of ignoring them.
J
JeremyEtcetera
Unconfirmed Member
Some of you guys have to stop thinking in such a binary way. Red/Blue, Good/Bad, Light/Dark, etc. People like Sharon, Val, and Walker are considered gray area characters and I'm fine with that because MCU needs more of them. Hopefully Punisher and mutants are next in line.
TriSuit666
Banned
Terrorists are good, America bad. Also, buy Sam’s boat, for fucks sake.
