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Lupingosei
Banned
Falcon is also boring as fuck. Zemo, Bucky, and even Sharon Carter are more interesting.
J
JeremyEtcetera
Unconfirmed Member
They are what Zemo was in Civil War. They're merely exposing concepts that are already broken and are bringing them to light.
If this were a Netflix Marvel show they would have given the Flagsmashers their own 40 minute episode to emphasize this(Like what Daredevil did with Fisk or Kilgrave in Jessica Jones for example). That was one of the things the Netflix shows were good at, making sure their villains were fleshed out as much as possible.
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DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
Did anyone else catch when Walker told Lemar's family that he killed the person that killed Lemar... The camera switched to Lemar's sister who looked like she didn't believe him and knew he was lying?
I noticed.
I noticed.
Hotty Botty
Member
Yes, we all noticed.
ManaByte
Banned
Yes a killer who murdered the guy who made the shield should carry it.
UnravelKatharsis
Member
J
JeremyEtcetera
Unconfirmed Member
The way Bucky currently is, he isn't mentally ready for it yet. He is still working on his list of amends and one of them is honoring Steve's creed to the tee, which to him means that Sam should have it as Steve has stated. The MCU will probably give it to him down the line at some point. Marvel and Feige love their roadmaps and grand plans.
ManaByte
Banned
I think they'll make Bucky the leader of the Thunderbolts instead.
J
JeremyEtcetera
Unconfirmed Member
That would be cool too. It might be a while though if he gets Hamill's blessing to be cast as Luke Skywalker.
ManaByte
Banned
Yea the MCU Bucky is really the Brubaker Bucky who was Cap's wetworks guy who didn't have a problem using a sniper rifle to take someone out. And yea, Bucky Cap was Brubaker; that storyline is really similar to what they did with John Walker in the MCU so doing Bucky Cap would be a retread of this series anyways. We already saw a Captain America on trial in this series and being stripped of his title, and Bucky having Wakanda make Sam's suit is similar to how Bucky Cap's suit in the comic was laced with adamantium. After this series it wouldn't make sense to do Bucky Cap as a lot of that run made it into this show in different ways.
Fbh
Gold Member
Chapter was Ok, a bit slower but the next one should be interesting:
- I know he is going through shit but Bucky seems a bit nerfed in this show. Dude has like 100 years of experience, but seems to be getting his ass kicked frequently.
- Knowing nothing of the comics, I hope they don't turn Walker into some generic bad guy. Dude fucked up but I don't really see him as bad, could be interesting anti hero or something.
- The whole "They'll never let Captain America be Black" stuff made sense post WW2 but seems silly in 2021. They'll never let a black guy be C.America in 2021 when big tech, the entire entertainment industry and half the politicians in the US are pushing woke ideologies?
- Are we expecting Falcon to be some sort of winged Captain America? With the powers of the rest of the MCU going into crazy territory (Captain Marvel, Wanda, Dr Strange, etc) some unpowered Captain America will have limited usefulness
- I know he is going through shit but Bucky seems a bit nerfed in this show. Dude has like 100 years of experience, but seems to be getting his ass kicked frequently.
- Knowing nothing of the comics, I hope they don't turn Walker into some generic bad guy. Dude fucked up but I don't really see him as bad, could be interesting anti hero or something.
- The whole "They'll never let Captain America be Black" stuff made sense post WW2 but seems silly in 2021. They'll never let a black guy be C.America in 2021 when big tech, the entire entertainment industry and half the politicians in the US are pushing woke ideologies?
- Are we expecting Falcon to be some sort of winged Captain America? With the powers of the rest of the MCU going into crazy territory (Captain Marvel, Wanda, Dr Strange, etc) some unpowered Captain America will have limited usefulness
UnravelKatharsis
Member
I think falcon should be cap for a spell. Long enough for him to do something great, but realize he is better as falcon. Falcon is uniquely his own thing and without the serum I don't think he'd survive very long as cap. I don't see him faring much better than walker did as far as ability.
Bucky should be cap for the reasons people seem to think he shouldn't.
He's imperfect. He has a troubled past. He has a lot to atone for. Bucky needs to live up to the shield. Falcon is already worthy, he's just not as capable. Bucky is capable. The shield would give him something to strive toward. Living up to and honoring his best friends legacy.
Bucky should be cap for the reasons people seem to think he shouldn't.
He's imperfect. He has a troubled past. He has a lot to atone for. Bucky needs to live up to the shield. Falcon is already worthy, he's just not as capable. Bucky is capable. The shield would give him something to strive toward. Living up to and honoring his best friends legacy.
ManaByte
Banned
He has a Rocky training montage and a Wakandan super suit.
UnravelKatharsis
Member
Oh well nevermind then!
J
JeremyEtcetera
Unconfirmed Member
That second part can make a massive difference.
Perry Simm but in space
Member
Man, the one episode per week schedule really hit me hard this time. I liked the somber tone of the episode, but it stopped right when things were beginning to ramp up. I know that's how television works, but they are a lot of threads left to resolve. They could have at least given us a glimpse of what's in the baaaawks (even if we can imagine).
Little disappointed that they didn't do more with Bucky, but ultimately it's not his story, it's Falcon's. All in all, what made the show for me so far were Zemo and Walker. I hope they keep Walker grey and don't make him go full Homelander.
Little disappointed that they didn't do more with Bucky, but ultimately it's not his story, it's Falcon's. All in all, what made the show for me so far were Zemo and Walker. I hope they keep Walker grey and don't make him go full Homelander.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
I feel like I'm the only one here who is invested in Falcon's story.
Bucky's story is also great... I love how he's there for Sam even when saying they're not friends when they clearly have become friends. I appreciated his apology to Sam, too.
Wyatt Russell is a PHENOMENAL actor! I've never seen him in anything before but he's gained a fan! He is so much like his dad!
What is Sharon REALLY up to?
Zemo is no longer the same bad guy from Civil War... He's an anti-hero now. And that, to me, makes him even more interesting.
I noticed no one has said anything about Isaiah Bradley. Anyway, his rundown of his imprisonment is almost word for word from the comic...
Bucky's story is also great... I love how he's there for Sam even when saying they're not friends when they clearly have become friends. I appreciated his apology to Sam, too.
Wyatt Russell is a PHENOMENAL actor! I've never seen him in anything before but he's gained a fan! He is so much like his dad!
What is Sharon REALLY up to?
Zemo is no longer the same bad guy from Civil War... He's an anti-hero now. And that, to me, makes him even more interesting.
I noticed no one has said anything about Isaiah Bradley. Anyway, his rundown of his imprisonment is almost word for word from the comic...
ManaByte
Banned
Isaiah served two purposes in the series: 1. to push Sam towards becoming cap and 2. to introduce his grandson Elijah (Patriot in the Young Avengers).
This is the second Disney+ show to introduce a Young Avenger.
Billy & Tommy are in WandaVision.
Elijah Bradley is in two episodes in Falcon.
Kate Bishop is in Hawkeye.
Kamala gets her own series.
America Chavez is in Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness.
The new Cassie Lang is in Ant-Man 3.
J
JeremyEtcetera
Unconfirmed Member
This show has made me curious about them giving this show treatment to other characters who were formerly considered B-characters/sidekicks.
I think I'd really enjoy a War Machine tv show depending on how it's done.
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Movies and TV have been doing it for ages so I shouldn't be surprised but why do they insist on casting "striking" aka fuck ugly actors in key roles. The dull as dishwater freckly slag has a visual presence sure but she can't act. She sounds like shes reading the menu at Wendy's, not a passionate freedom fighter/terrorist. It's not entirely her fault because I think the writers couldn't quite figure out how to portray the group. For example, in the most recent episode the GRC has to have a guy say something ridiculous like "lol why vote just resettle 20 million people at gunpoint" to engineer sympathy. But nothing else really makes sense about what the group is trying to achieve or how.
Anyway the what's in the wakanda box thing was frustrating but I can only assume it's a suit made of 100% pure danktanium. I actually have come round and think Falcon could be worthy of being the next Captain America. Hes nothing on Rogers but... well Bucky isnt ready to do it.
Anyway the what's in the wakanda box thing was frustrating but I can only assume it's a suit made of 100% pure danktanium. I actually have come round and think Falcon could be worthy of being the next Captain America. Hes nothing on Rogers but... well Bucky isnt ready to do it.
ManaByte
Banned
They're doing that. It's called Armor Wars.
J
JeremyEtcetera
Unconfirmed Member
Almost forgot about that. Hoping to see it soon.
Toons
Member
An important thing to note that soooo many critics of the series are missing. Literally EVERY character in the show has been screwed over by people more powerful than them, everyone. Its been different for them all but that has remained largely consistent.
In the grand scheme, the show is about how to deal with that reality and how to move forward. Sam as the central character has been flooded with different perspective on how to deal with this... from Karli who wants violent revolution, to Bucky who wants to make amends for his own mistakes to Zemo who wants to eliminate all "superpowered" individuals entirely. Walker wants to become more powerful himself, and finally Sam wants to move forward and keep fighting the good fight, this is what the main focus was in this last episode.
The theme is about the fight against supremacy, not just in terms of physical might(Zemo) but also hollow governmental legislation(Karli), the unjust law system(Sharon), unrealistic expectations(John), political warfare(Bucky), financial power(Sarah) and yes even racial supremacy(Isaiah). Sam has faced each and every one of those in one way or another over the course of this series and has proven himself against them all. His conversation with Isaiah can be read as the "final boss" of these, being the challenge most may find insurmountable, which is another black man telling him that no self respecting one would take the shield. He inner conflict that led him to give up the shield in the first place coming back at him with a vengeance. If he takes the shield, is he condoning or endorsing the things done to Isaiah?
That kinda conflict is very real and very rare to see in a TV show in general let alone a superhero one. Its called Falcon and the Winter Solider but this is really and truly about Sam Wilson and how a man like him would deal with being forced into the choice of being Captain America or not. This show is absolutely phenomenal and it is a tragedy that so many people are missing out on the subtext of this series.
In the grand scheme, the show is about how to deal with that reality and how to move forward. Sam as the central character has been flooded with different perspective on how to deal with this... from Karli who wants violent revolution, to Bucky who wants to make amends for his own mistakes to Zemo who wants to eliminate all "superpowered" individuals entirely. Walker wants to become more powerful himself, and finally Sam wants to move forward and keep fighting the good fight, this is what the main focus was in this last episode.
The theme is about the fight against supremacy, not just in terms of physical might(Zemo) but also hollow governmental legislation(Karli), the unjust law system(Sharon), unrealistic expectations(John), political warfare(Bucky), financial power(Sarah) and yes even racial supremacy(Isaiah). Sam has faced each and every one of those in one way or another over the course of this series and has proven himself against them all. His conversation with Isaiah can be read as the "final boss" of these, being the challenge most may find insurmountable, which is another black man telling him that no self respecting one would take the shield. He inner conflict that led him to give up the shield in the first place coming back at him with a vengeance. If he takes the shield, is he condoning or endorsing the things done to Isaiah?
That kinda conflict is very real and very rare to see in a TV show in general let alone a superhero one. Its called Falcon and the Winter Solider but this is really and truly about Sam Wilson and how a man like him would deal with being forced into the choice of being Captain America or not. This show is absolutely phenomenal and it is a tragedy that so many people are missing out on the subtext of this series.
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DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
If Sam hadn't given the shield up in the first place, Lemar would still be alive and Walker wouldn't be where he is now...
I still find it incredible he didn't go to prison.
I still find it incredible he didn't go to prison.
bitbydeath
Gold Member
If every Avenger went to jail for killing someone there’d be none left.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
You're conflating killing in self defense or in battle with what what John did which was hulking out and brutally murdering someone in the street. Soldiers have a code of conduct and doing what he did gets them court-martialed. John is, or was until recently, a member of the armed forces.
Even the Avengers had a code of conduct. To be better than those they tried to bring to justice. They didn't kill Loki. They didn't kill Zemo. They didn't kill others either. Not unless they had to.
bitbydeath
Gold Member
It’s not self-defense, it’s their job.
They purposely go to places with the intention of stopping terrorists by any means necessary.
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DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
I said in self defense or in battle.
Do you not know the military code of conduct? They can't kill people who have surrendered... Which is what the dude did. He had a mandate to arrest. Not murder.
You've watched too many movies that make murder look fine and dandy.
sol_bad
Member
The terrorists are 100% trying to kill the Avengers, not laying on their backs with their hands in the air.
bitbydeath
Gold Member
You understand why he did it though right?
It wasn’t because he’s a bad person.
bitbydeath
Gold Member
It’s no different to Spider-Man killing Uncle Bens killer. Just because nobody was there nobody there to film it shouldn’t make a difference in the viewers eyes.
Peter Parker isn’t a bad guy and neither is John Walker.
Black Widow, Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, Nick Fury and Hawkeye all kill without a second thought and are considered heroes. Hawkeye deleted dozens of Yakuza for simply existing and then executed their leader while he was on his knees begging to live while the indifferent Black Widow, a literal assassin, looked on without care.
They interrogate a Hydra member through the enhanced interrogation techinique of throwing him off of a skyscraper, a crime in and of itself.
The notion that Walker killing a terrorist superhuman makes him a bad guy is a poor narrative set-up for vilifying him. Anyone who can punch through concrete and can turn small rocks into deadly projectiles by throwing them is not pacified until they are unconscious or dead. Doubly so if you cannot be certain that they are not pulling another Crossbones and are packing a suicide vest.
Any special operations unit would be treating them with maximal force and most likely, in a world without costumed heroes, that funeral would have been targeted for a predator drone strike in order to wipe out the terrorist leader. This is especially true given that the World Security Council response to an alien invasion was to use a nuke as a first protocol.
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sol_bad
Member
......
Are you remembering the movie wrong? Peter didn't kill uncle Ben's killer. He tripped and fell out a window.
Peter was there to apprehend the murderer and he disarmed him. He wasn't there to murder uncle Ben's killer.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
I know. He's severely traumatized. He has PTSD and crumbling under the pressure of being CA.
I KNOW the actual villains are Karli and the Power Broker (and maybe Contessa as well).
He's bad guy only because he has the shield and acted too much unlike Steve or Sam or Bucky. We're supposed to LIKE their personalities... Walker was too much like Bro Frat Dude In Charge...
Also, Lemar was basically the one to talk some rationality/calm down into Walker... basically being his Conscience. You aren't a really good person if you need a whole other person as your conscience/moral center. Lemar kept pulling John back from acting on impulse continually.
Kraz
Member
The people Barton killed weren't shown in a way to cause the viewers to react negatively. It's like creating narratives in the method of filming/editing reality tv.
The way the scene was filmed, the music and everyone's shocked faces is what people who think John is bad are reacting to. Show a few scenes to make them think poorly of him beforehand. They're emotionally manipulated by the scene not the reality of it in comparison to similar incidents.
Kraz
Member
Also Bucky and Sam didn't appear to have any right to decide for themselves to try extortion then violent assault and robbery for the shield over an action that hadn't even seen court yet. They weren't following orders or the law, just their self-righteousness and perceived entitlement.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
If I saw a random person or a cop or a soldier do EXACTLY what John did, I'd call that murder and him or her a bad guy.
John should have been court-martialed... that was behavior unbecoming of a soldier. He lost his benefits but he didn't go to prison. Soldiers have been court-martialed for less.
Kraz
Member
Disagree. Removed as Captain America, some training on engagement and return to duty would have been sufficient.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
As someone with actual veterans in my family... they all said he'd be court-martialed.
It doesn't matter if he was on film... the fact he likely decapitated someone is murder. Even if it was heat of the moment, it doesn't follow rules of engagement. You don't get a second chance after you kill someone in that manner. It shows you can't represent the service and aren't of sound mind to continue.
Kraz
Member
Court-martials in the Marvel universe seem to be applied arbitrarily based on mood.
Pragmatically there's strategic reasons for keeping the terrorist alive. Lock him in a cell and extract the blood to make more serum.
Every flagsmasher life is forfeit already for their activities. They kill people for convenience, to make statements and over speculation of what ifs and maybe could have beens. If they put that much planning and effort into making their homes better maybe they wouldn't be terrorists.
What Walker did, the idea that Captain America could snap at any moment and kill if a line is crossed is something that could be put to good use. Phillips seemed to think so when talking to Zola after the train.
Being removed under disgrace from the mantle of Captain America with a couple minor conditions would have been enough in this fictional setting. That wouldn't have created a new hero though.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
I feel like you haven't watched a single episode or seen every minute of them.
Killing for convenience? Karli is the villain but she accidentally killed Lemar... she and every Flag Smasher was shook when he died.
The ONLY ones she killed to make a statement were the guards they tied up at the warehouse depot. Even her compatriot was shook that she went that route.
Those, so far, are the only ones whom they've killed. One by accident, the others (in one incident) intentionally making a statement.
And they can't just "make their homes better" as that isn't their goal. Their motto is "one world, one people"... they want things to go back to what it was BEFORE the blip. When everyone was helping each other, borders didn't matter anymore and everyone was pretty much one people. Karli even said "You all were people I was taught to hate... but all came together after the snap. We were truly one people"...
Isn't that the goal we all should be pushing for? Instead of petty tribalism? In the Bible, that's the ultimate goal (one of them, anyway) for God's people. One world, one People.
Edit: Phillips was trying to intimidate Zola ... he didn't think Steve would go berserk on Zola if he interrogated him.
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Kraz
Member
That stuff about one world/one people that's the group's propaganda she's selling to justify the group's activities. It's meant to emotionally trigger and override critical thinking. They have plenty of ability to help resettle people peacefully. They're just wanting the situation in life they benefited from that was a product of mass murder.
There was no accident to the situation she intentionally created. They planned to kill Captain America. Lemar gave his life to save Walker. There are the consequences of Karli and flagsmashers. Indirectly, John wouldn't be Captain America and Lemar probably still be alive if Sam had just kept the shield in the first place and worked on his issues at home to arrive at the same place he is now.
No one that knows Steve would think he would kill Zola over Bucky. It's just an understandable and believable reaction from someone.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
I said the same thing about Sam earlier in this thread. So we're agreed... but it wouldn't have allowed the story to progress that we have right now.
I'm glad they did away with the virus storyline and went with "Robin Hood" Flag Smashers. This makes the villains a bit more sympathetic. That said... I think we agree more than disagree. I'm enjoying this discussion!
Anyway... The one world, one people stuff seems to be what she really believes... her and the rest of the group as the show shows them talking about away from public eyes and ears. They all suffer from PTSD but that doesn't absolve them of their wrongdoing, just like it doesn't absolve Walker.
There's nothing more dangerous than a true believer in a cause... see Thanos and Killmonger.
bitbydeath
Gold Member
He tripped after being pummeled by Peter and Peter could have easily saved him but chose not too.