The Fighting Game Noob Thread: From Scrub to Master
- Thread starter Cindi Mayweather
- Start date
I know, that move is a bad habit at that range. It beats fireballs clean, but I have to read a fireball to actually get it. So, standing far away and not throwing a fireball will beat me. I need better full screen options, even if better means "Don't be full screen". Considering the range of most of Karin's moves, it may be just that.
As for jumping out, you got me on that. I don't know why I do it. Well for Zangief, I know exactly why, I really don't want to be grounded in SPD range against him. Gotta respect big Z on the ground. But for the rest, it's likely a panic reaction. "I am taking damage, I should retreat." Or for breaking off the footsies because I feel like I'm at a severe disadvantage. Even if I'm not. I need more confidence in my defenses at close range. Related, I need better defenses at close range.
Typing it out like that, it reads like I'm trying to play zoning with a rushdown character. I need to figure out Karin's desired range, which I imagine is exactly one pixel off MK range. But I do get nervous at close range. Or when the opponent comes at me in general. I need answers for common situations that I don't have yet.
So, hm, if I were to make a to-do list for Karin in full SFV, it'd be something like this?
1. Don't throw special moves without purpose, hard reads are fine, but only if they WORK.
2. Don't jump out, win or die, but learn to be stuck in.
3. Don't jump as much, period.
4. Learn to anti-air, even if it just means blocking high, or dashing under.
5. Learn easy damage conversions off normals. Why MK, when you can MK xx qcb+K? (Assuming that works.)
And in general, try to notice what ranges Karin feels good at and what she get destroyed at. That sound about right?
So I missed all the other SFV beta sessions besides this last one and got to get some time in. Been pretty fun but been sticking with Mika for this beta session. Gonna try and branch out when I can sit in training mode without matchmaking interruptions later on release.
Been taking SFV as my first real attempt to get good at a fighting game, always been one that understands most concepts just bad at execution as result of watching a lot but not so much playing.
Had a few good matches but got destroyed in a lot of them.
Here's two matches where I feel like I was getting better at spacing and stuff. Any tips or criticism?
I realize some mistakes like in the Laura fight I used her anti-air too much for no reason, even looking back I don't remember why I was doing that.
Trying to put footsies and spacing into practice.
Last match before the beta ended.
In retrospect I should have grabbed some replays of matches I had that were losses, but most of them I realize were a result of being bad at blocking under pressure when knocked down in the corner.
On the mirror match one my controller died part way through the second round and had to scramble to plug it in.
Been taking SFV as my first real attempt to get good at a fighting game, always been one that understands most concepts just bad at execution as result of watching a lot but not so much playing.
Had a few good matches but got destroyed in a lot of them.
Here's two matches where I feel like I was getting better at spacing and stuff. Any tips or criticism?
I realize some mistakes like in the Laura fight I used her anti-air too much for no reason, even looking back I don't remember why I was doing that.
Trying to put footsies and spacing into practice.
Last match before the beta ended.
In retrospect I should have grabbed some replays of matches I had that were losses, but most of them I realize were a result of being bad at blocking under pressure when knocked down in the corner.
On the mirror match one my controller died part way through the second round and had to scramble to plug it in.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
That feeling when you just want to quit playing fighting games. I must be a masochist. Why do I keep coming back?
Professor Beef
Banned
Because you want to learn to get better.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
I think I've hit my skill plateau.
Professor Beef
Banned
Now you just need to find a way to break past that. Nothing wrong with taking a break though. It helps more than you think.
You've played, what, 2/300 hours of SF4? Not even close.
Judging your entire fighting career on a brief beta where you can't train for more than 3 mins uninterrupted... c'mon.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
But 200 hours and 2000 fights and it looks like the same thing will continue in SFV.
How long will it take me to get to 200 hours in SFV and will it be worth it? That's my question.
It doesn't have to do with SFV much but in general. At one point I had 1200 pp and now I'm back to nearly 400. Cross ups routinely hit me because I'm not sure if it's a cross up or a regular jump. I lose repeatedly to people who spam taunts. I feel like I have wasted my time and I'm not sure I want to put more time into it. I wanted to get to 2000 pp before SFV but now i realize it's beyond my skill level and to make matters worse I will probably end USFIV with less than 1000 pp. I wanted to put about 50 more hours into SFIV and grind it out and get better but I'm not sure if it's worth it or if I'm even capable of getting better.
Professor Beef
Banned
1) You don't have to worry too much about ending SF4 with a low PP count because at this point in the game's life there's nothing but good players left. You would have to grind for several hours a day just to get to a high count, and I've tried doing that and I felt insane at the end of my sessions. Which conveniently leads me to my next point.
2) You've got the wrong mindset. You're too hung up on points and feeling like you're obligated to get above a certain amount, etc. Right now, the best thing to do would probably be to take a break. It's clear that you're bummed out about your progress, and we've all been there. A few days or weeks off is what I usually take if I'm frustrated with a game. I then go do something else in the meantime.
At the very least, you recognize that you've hit a plateau. That's already a good step towards getting better.
plus if us t.hawk mains can gut it out for this long then it shouldn't be a prob for you /s
Gipsy Danger
Member
We all have that feeling. I had it a couple of years ago and I quit SF for almost a year. Got back into it last January and not only did I get back to where I was but I managed to massively surpass my previous skill level. I still have a long way to go but it shows that you can always improve.
Edit: A piece of advice I can give is try to play offline if you can. Failing that, play sets with people online. Stop rinsing ranked because it's just super random a lot of the time. Play FT3s or FT5s with GAF or anyone you meet online in ranked who you enjoyed playing.
I always try to play sets with people because then you have a specific goal in mind, win the set or at least only lose 2-5 or 3-5.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Even beyond the points, I still am not satisfied. 200 hours and 2000 matches and the only skill that I have managed to carry over to SFV, the whole reason I played so much to begin with, is blocking and predicting wakeup DPs. The points don't mean that much, but the points are a manifestation of my failure to learn. I try implementing what I see in the footsies handbook and it never works. I'm not sure if it's worth my time to continue doing this. Will I be a better player if I play 400-500 hours of SFV? At this point I doubt it.
CountBlack
Member
That's how I felt when I was trying to get into XRD.
Ended up deciding it just wasn't worth it.
and I was right
SixMachine
Member
I did manage to catch some of your vids of your SF5 Chun in the other thread. I did notice that you didn't convert a lot of pokes into specials, that's something a lot of people build muscle memory for. So it's understandable to see people messing up and not confirming their normals into something, it varies for everyone the time it takes to be comfortable and recognize those situations. Especially for a new game, since the normals are different in significant ways. So yes, I guarantee you with more time you will be better, especially since you can lobby up against some other gaffers.
points mean nothing, stop playing online!
Please please please stop playing online against randoms
Cindi Mayweather
Member
I have to until SFV because most have dropped USFIV completely now.
CountBlack
Member
Will you be a better player after 400-500 hours? That depends on you.
Realizing why you're losing/lost a match plays a big role in getting better. Let's say for example.. you're playing a Ken and you lose to him mashing a DP on wakeup. Okay, you can blame the loss on not baiting the DP, but you have to analyze where the majority of his damage came from in the round. Was it through jump ins? Walking into fireballs? Getting hit by a lot of cr.MKs? Ambiguous crossups? Getting thrown a lot? You must figure out why you took all that damage and what you can do next time to prevent it. You should try using training mode as an option to train against what you're having issues with, not just necessarily execution. If you got hit by a lot of jump ins, practice anti airing that specific normal that was giving you issues. Walking into fireballs? Practice against various speeds of fireballs and the timing to neutral jump over them. Getting hit by a lot of cr.MKs? Learn the range of the opponents normals and which attacks of yours will beat it out.
Learn your weaknesses and work on improving them. After most of my losses in the Beta/SF4, I try to think about what went wrong; I was pressing buttons on wakeup, I didn't AA, I jumped in too much, I walked into too many normals, I fell for frame traps, I didn't capitalize on my opportunities, I fell into a pattern and made myself to easy to read, I threw poorly spaced fireballs etc. I try to tell myself what went wrong right after I lose a round and try to improve on that going into the next so the result isn't the same.
Putting in 200 hours would've been sufficient if it was.. say vanilla. But you started with USF4 which was 44 characters. 200 hours isn't enough time to learn the ins & outs of each matchup, to learn what each character can do, you will run into lots of unfamiliarity with some characters and lose because you just don't know what they can do. Another part of leaning matchups is to actually use the character yourself and figure out what their weaknesses are. There's also tons of mechanics/tech to learn which for most aren't explained through the game, which forces you to scour the internet/gaf for answers. Another thing is that you started with Chun Li who I really don't think is the best character to start with in 4 because most of her combos/punishes require higher execution than other characters.
Putting in 400-500 hours in SFV will be different. Less characters/matchups to learn, Chun Li doesn't rely on higher execution to play her well, easier execution in general, less mechanics to learn, you'll have a fresh start just like everyone else, so when new tech comes out, you'll be here to learn it with everyone else instead of playing catch up. I honestly think if you put in the time, you'll see success. You just have to be able to pinpoint what your weaknesses are and how you will improve on it. And you know if you need help with something in game, myself and other gaffers are here to help.
Alex s.fp is an overhead, and a fantastic meaty on wakeup.
And everyone in 3S has an overhead, thanks to universal overhead (mp+mk).
Gipsy Danger
Member
Number of hours while beneficial isn't as good as training smart. Look at your matches and see what you are doing wrong, then fix it. If you find a particular setup you are getting beat by then learn it, do it in training mode and figure out how to beat it. Practise Anti-airing, it's one of the most important things in SF and a lot harder in SFV from what I've seen and played. If you really don't want to play more then you shouldn't but if you intend to give up on something you enjoy just because you don't think you're improving then you need to forget it and keep trying. Take a break until SFV comes out and then you can rinse that game out.
Lostconfused
Member
Maybe you should go watch this video again http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=193030919&postcount=12871
Think about why you bothered with it in the first place, and make some choices.
In the mean time I'll just enjoy this schadenfreude I am feeling here.
Think about why you bothered with it in the first place, and make some choices.
In the mean time I'll just enjoy this schadenfreude I am feeling here.
You will be if you believe. That and with only 16 characters initially / 17 within a month, it'll be MUCH easier to learn the matchups and have them hammered into your skull.
Being (overly) negative will defeat you not only in FG's, though, but in Life.
/nod
Cindi Mayweather
Member
I'm not normally this negative. I assure you I am just really, really hormonal right now.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Thanks for all the advice everyone. Let's keep things positive.
And Count, I didn't play all of Ultra as Chun. I originally started with Poison. I've only been playing Chun for 3 months.
And Count, I didn't play all of Ultra as Chun. I originally started with Poison. I've only been playing Chun for 3 months.
GootecksShimmy
Banned
Reading your posts it seems like a variety of issues:
*Lack of match up knowledge
-This is like playing a FPS where you don't know the map layout when you first play, but everyone else does. So what happens? You get hit everywhere by everything and die non stop.
*Lack of fundamentals
-If you play a racing game and don't know where you should break or slow down, what happens? You generally crash, or slow down too much due to impact, and lose your spot. When to break is when to block. When to speed up is your go to punish combo. Shifting gears is blocking cross ups. So on and so forth.
*Wasted Time
-You can play 5000 hours, but if you use your time poorly, then you didn't accomplish much of anything. If cross ups are hitting you then set the AI to do jump forward MK(often most of the casts cross ups are this button), and practice blocking it. Visually see the space at which they can and can't do it, etc. Or practice your anti airs when someone goes in the air. That way you only worry about it on your wake ups and that's it.
----------
When SF5 hits go crazy on absorbing knowledge. Maybe even buy Gootecks' book off Amazon for how to get into SF5. It's mad cheap, and a good read. Watch videos of pros, hop on SRK for character specific combos, punishes, etc to learn what others are finding for you.
Oh and another issue I personally had is I wanted to play fireball characters. Turns out I can't space a fireball to save my life. However, grapplers and mix up heavy characters (R. Mika, Abel, Makoto, Laura, Hugo, etc) came so naturally to me. So experiment. You may LOVE LOVE LOVE Poison or Chun, but you aren't ready to play the game they are meant to be played, or it's just not meant to be for your play style.
Set goals, work towards them, and never stop being hungry.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
I've experimented a lot.
Chun works for me. I've grown 1000 x with Chun compared to Poison. I switched from Poison for a reason. When I originally switched, I couldn't zone with fbs well. Now I can do a decent job. I've learned by switching characters that I like charge characters, and more particularly, characters with good normals.
I have also tried to dedicate my play time to learning fundamentals. I haven't been learning combos or anything until recently. Spacing is the main fundamental I've been working on. Because I get crossed up doesn't mean I haven't been trying to learn fundamentals. Fundamentals has been my goal all along.
.
ShinMaruku
Member
Dea dor Alive 5 Last Round Lobby up:
www.twitch.tv.shinmaruku
www.twitch.tv.shinmaruku
Do you have any SFV videos? I tried looking at your twitch, but there is no archive.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
For some dumb reason, archiving isn't default. I just turned it on.
There was this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2uPkfJoMS0
Note that this is from Saturday and I wasn't used to a lot of things yet. It was my first real time with SFV beta as well.
NoctisVsStar
Member
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
I'm in a weird position in that I've played SF on and off since 1992, but this summer when Ultra came out on PS4 was the first time I actually THOUGHT about the game and how you're supposed to play it (largely because it's my first time playing online, or against anyone but my friends). This means my execution of basic SF moves is at a very high level, but my knowledge of smart play is near rock bottom. I mean, I have tons of instincts that have been honed over the years, and some of them are good, but I also have to fight against playing on auto-pilot because I just do a lot of dumb, risky shit.
The hardest thing about playing Ultra online, for me, is fighting what you're feeling right now. When I lose I sometimes have to fight against overinterpreting that loss.
"I suck. I'll never get better because I don't have hundreds or even dozens of hours to practice."
"I'm not playing the right way and if I don't play exactly like high level players, I might as well not bother."
I have to actively remind myself that everyone loses. Losing is a necessary part of learning. I just have to pay attention to my weaknesses and gradually overcome them by making fewer mistakes and fewer bad decisions. I also try to not to think about it in terms of how many hours I've put in vs. how many points I have. I know I will never be the best. My only goal I have when playing online is the thrill of a well-fought victory, which happens often enough to keep me hooked. The only thing that can ruin my enjoyment of SF is my own psychology.
Another thing I might recommend is that if you're not having much fun doing your "homework" in training mode, play vs. CPU. I've spent a ton of time doing that over the years and while it won't teach you anything about mind games, it can help you develop an intuitive sense of the playing field. It will improve your instincts about jump-in ranges, footsies, what moves can be punished on block, and so on. There's a ton you can learn just by playing a lot and letting your brain absorb the game's possibility space, no spreadsheets required. You can do this online too, but I like the no-pressure aspect of fighting the CPU.
zedreamcast
Member
So i was fighting my friend yesterday and for some reason i was having trouble hitting him on wake up. He was mashing buttons a bunch, namely lights, and when he was playing T. Hawk against my Geif my spd would constantly whiff on wake up and hed hit me with his immediately.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Hardest part of SFV is breaking my habit of busting out lights. I'm also having trouble with legs being a qcf command now.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Stick with it.
Anyways, I've decided to take a break until SFV. I'll be studying SFV match videos, frame data, and playing GG instead.
It was a good ride USFIV. You were the fighting game that made me want to get good at fighting games. I owe you that much.
Anyways, I've decided to take a break until SFV. I'll be studying SFV match videos, frame data, and playing GG instead.
It was a good ride USFIV. You were the fighting game that made me want to get good at fighting games. I owe you that much.
markwaters
Neo Member
To add to what everyone else is saying to Cindi, but also to address training/getting better/plateauing in general: It's not about how much time you've put in. It's about how you've used that time and how you think about your training/progress that's more important than just putting the time in.
There's a quick litmus test to tell if putting the time in is valuable: Are you having fun? If yes, then you're in a better position to practice, learn, and enjoy yourself in the process. In my experience, your progress in this state is substantial, but it may not be measurable. Don't worry about it and enjoy yourself. Adhere to whatever makes the game fun for you -- if you like learning combos in training mode in between crack sessions, do that. If you like studying frame data, do that. And so on. This is the best time to focus on *your* play.
If you're not having fun, then you're just going to frustrate yourself to the point where playing and practicing isn't constructive or useful to the process of getting better. Take a break. Step away from your game(s) of choice and come back with a fresh perspective. Take a few days, a week, or more if you need to. I tend to use this time to devote to my other interests and/or think about the game in general and independent of my own progress. For example, this is a good time to review top player videos. During these times is when I realize I'm noticing more of the nuances of high level play that I may have not understood before. This kind of thinking gets me excited to play again and I often see visible progress when I come back to the game.
For me, not playing at all can be just as valuable to training as playing all of the time. But the bottom line is this: if you're not having fun, just take a break and come back to the game later.
There's a quick litmus test to tell if putting the time in is valuable: Are you having fun? If yes, then you're in a better position to practice, learn, and enjoy yourself in the process. In my experience, your progress in this state is substantial, but it may not be measurable. Don't worry about it and enjoy yourself. Adhere to whatever makes the game fun for you -- if you like learning combos in training mode in between crack sessions, do that. If you like studying frame data, do that. And so on. This is the best time to focus on *your* play.
If you're not having fun, then you're just going to frustrate yourself to the point where playing and practicing isn't constructive or useful to the process of getting better. Take a break. Step away from your game(s) of choice and come back with a fresh perspective. Take a few days, a week, or more if you need to. I tend to use this time to devote to my other interests and/or think about the game in general and independent of my own progress. For example, this is a good time to review top player videos. During these times is when I realize I'm noticing more of the nuances of high level play that I may have not understood before. This kind of thinking gets me excited to play again and I often see visible progress when I come back to the game.
For me, not playing at all can be just as valuable to training as playing all of the time. But the bottom line is this: if you're not having fun, just take a break and come back to the game later.
Any extra notes in what has changed from Saturday to Sunday?
First thing I have noticed is that you don't have a BnB, which means you leave a lot of damage on the table. With that I mean hit confirms and punishes like crush counter.
The next thing is probably that you don't know your buttons. As in SFIV she is one of the few characters with rather long ranged normals, if you don't use them your opponent will run you over.
From your short training room time I have seen, you seem to lack a system on how to approach exploring a character. My advice would be learn the buttons including framedata, next is learn the specals and learn what can link into what and turn that into BnBs.
In case you still haven't learned how to use framedata, including the logic behind it and how to use the knowledge properly, I'll be doing a little write up later on.
There are obviously other things like V-Reversal and V-Trigger, but I'll chalk that up as something you still have to get used to.
I uploaded some of my replays from the beta. Theres a lot of mistakes I made in these two matches, and I know I have to work on my spacing, ranges, defense, etc.
vs CountBlack
vs Brolylegs
If anyone could give me some pointers it would definitely be appreciated.
vs CountBlack
vs Brolylegs
If anyone could give me some pointers it would definitely be appreciated.
NoctisVsStar
Member
It depends if you put emphasis on rank and points. When you hop online just play cause you come across all types of players and bs that conditions you to become better. There's days where I win 20 straight and there's days where I just don't win and lose all my points.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
I don't know HOW to approach learning a character besides just going in and fighting and seeing what works, what doesn't. I didn't learn a bnb until Sunday.
I know how to read frame data, but using the knowledge is confusing.
Gipsy Danger
Member
Learn your buttons, their ranges and which are effective anti-airs. Learn your max damage punish/crush counter combo that you'll use when the opportunity arises.
For more advanced stuff you'll want to learn any good frame traps that your character has.
There is more but that's what I can think of at the moment.
https://youtu.be/EL7dm2xknUs
Don't worry about frame data, you can tell over time what's safe and unsafe. Go into training mode and set the dummy to an attack you think is unsafe and find a punish.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
In my training room stuff in the video I posted I was testing out how SFIV Chun combos work in SFV, what moves combo into CA if at all, and how her V skill works. Her normals are normals. Chun normals don't really vary too much game to game. St HP is going to be st HP, and it should be clear from my video that I know that her best AA is st LK. I just need more actual in-game time to put my training to practice. In other words, the game needs to come out already.
It's not like I'm completely ignorant of how to approach learning a new character or a new game. I did make this thread after all. It's just SFV beta doesn't allow nearly enough time with the training room to get settled and comfy to learn ranges and combos and stuff. It's no surprise that a lot of the best beta players have been playing it since beta 1.
It's not like I'm completely ignorant of how to approach learning a new character or a new game. I did make this thread after all. It's just SFV beta doesn't allow nearly enough time with the training room to get settled and comfy to learn ranges and combos and stuff. It's no surprise that a lot of the best beta players have been playing it since beta 1.
DansGame