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[Ragnorok64]

Wait, is the audio version of this 50 minutes long? This isn't something I can just read during downtime then.

 

[Jyester]

What I said was that being white or male doesn't really help you become a president that much.

A bunch of people have already responded to you, but surely you agree that being black is detrimental to one's hopes of becoming president, especially if you align yourself with the Republican party? Again, the odds are 44 to 1.

Or is your argument that, because he is an opportunist, Black Trump would not have coddled racists and the KKK, but would have rather pivoted completely to bleeding heart liberalism? Trump is certainly an opportunist, but he's been able to stick to one of the core tenants of his existence throughout his entire run, and subsequently, the presidency. Because as Coates put it in his article, the dude's been a racist his entire life.

 

[Megalosaro]

Preaching this from the highest mountains in the United States will get you killed. This country is not prepared to confront any of this. We are country founded on genocide, racism and violence. To confront that with an open heart is to acknowledge the darkness from which most of this country was born.

Name one country that wasn't founded on genocide, racism and violence.

 

[capitalCORN]

Name one country that wasn't founded on genocide, racism and violence.

Here comes the whataboutisms. Every nation has a past, and we can nitpick through each one if you like. But the history of North America is very self evident for everyone here.

 

[kneePat]

This shit is cathartic.

 

[Eidan]

Name one country that wasn't founded on genocide, racism and violence.

Do you want to discuss other nations' foibles? Why not make a thread about it?

 

[entremet]

Name one country that wasn't founded on genocide, racism and violence.

True. But that's not the problem. The issue with America is we ignore our ideals when convenient. Look at the whole Confederate controversy. Instead of looking to make amends and listen to the descendants of slavery, there's a huge portion of the populace that basically says, "we don't care what you think". That's not owning up to it.

Contrast that with Germany and how they atoned for Nazism. Coates has written about this before too.

 

[Megalosaro]

Here comes the whataboutisms. Every nation has a past, and we can nitpick through each one if you like. But the history of North America is very self evident for everyone here.

This isn't a whataboutism. I just think it's odd that America gets singled out for this, when it's coded into the DNA of every country on the planet. Every single one of them. This isn't just an American problem. It's a human one.

 

[Slayven]

Yep, all the shit that been said before and after the election. The rebranding the working class as White Only is so true. Whats so sad about it is how ready people on the left was so ready to buy into that.

 

[capitalCORN]

This isn't a whataboutism. I just think it's odd that America gets singled out for this, when it's coded into the DNA of every country on the planet. Every single one of them. This isn't just an American problem. It's a human one.

And you can't with any validity say to understand the history all of the nations of Earth that have passed. The topic of the thread is obvious,

 

[spindashing]

Ah, didn't know a thread was made for this. Really great write-up, had my jaw dropping at certain points quoted in the thread already.

 

[Dr.Acula]

“I was formerly like yourself, sir, a very warm advocate of the abolition of slavery,” the labor reformer George Henry Evans argued in a letter to the abolitionist Gerrit Smith. “This was before I saw that there was white slavery.” Evans was a putative ally of Smith and his fellow abolitionists. But still he asserted that “the landless white” was worse off than the enslaved black, who at least enjoyed “surety of support in sickness and old age.”

Same song, different same tune for 200 years.

 

[Maledict]

This isn't a whataboutism. I just think it's odd that America gets singled out for this, when it's coded into the DNA of every country on the planet. Every single one of them. This isn't just an American problem. It's a human one.

To be frank - it's embedded in American society in a way that doesn't exist elsewhere in advanced economies. Other countries have their own pernicious issues (class in the UK!), but the extent to which racism is embedded at the very heart of the USA, structurally at every level, is fairly unique. You're the only country that had to go war to end slavery, years after the other western countries did. You had segregation and a ban on interracial marriage until living memory. So much of usa politics is determined by race, and the legacy of race, compared to anywhere else.

(It's worth noting of course that one reason Britain is better off than the USA in this regard is because we essentially exported it to you with the slave trade - we don't bear the scars of our sins in the same way because of colonialism).

 

[Locke562]

This isn't a whataboutism. I just think it's odd that America gets singled out for this, when it's coded into the DNA of every country on the planet. Every single one of them. This isn't just an American problem. It's a human one.

But this is about Americans tackling American problems. They may not be problems specific to us, but they are unique. You came in saying, "what about all the other countries?"

 

[reKon]

👀

Dear lord... Going to be sharing this.

 

[Emwitus]

Name one country that wasn't founded on genocide, racism and violence.

LOL

 

[Mesoian]

What I said was that being white or male doesn't really help you become a president that much.

Jesus...

Name one country that wasn't founded on genocide, racism and violence.

Lichtenstein

 

[AlimNassor]

Coates is the GOAT. Seriously hes always right.

 

[Bronx-Man]

THE SCOPE OF TRUMP'S commitment to whiteness is matched only by the depth of popular disbelief in the power of whiteness. We are now being told that support for Trump's ”Muslim ban," his scapegoating of immigrants, his defenses of police brutality are somehow the natural outgrowth of the cultural and economic gap between Lena Dunham's America and Jeff Foxworthy's. The collective verdict holds that the Democratic Party lost its way when it abandoned everyday economic issues like job creation for the softer fare of social justice. The indictment continues: To their neoliberal economics, Democrats and liberals have married a condescending elitist affect that sneers at blue-collar culture and mocks the white man as history's greatest monster and prime-time television's biggest doofus. In this rendition, Donald Trump is not the product of white supremacy so much as the product of a backlash against contempt for white working-class people.

”The utter contempt with which privileged Eastern liberals such as myself discuss red-state, gun-country, working-class America as ridiculous and morons and rubes," charged the celebrity chef Anthony Bourdain, ”is largely responsible for the upswell of rage and contempt and desire to pull down the temple that we're seeing now."

That black people, who have lived for centuries under such derision and condescension, have not yet been driven into the arms of Trump does not trouble these theoreticians. After all, in this analysis, Trump's racism and the racism of his supporters are incidental to his rise. Indeed, the alleged glee with which liberals call out Trump's bigotry is assigned even more power than the bigotry itself. Ostensibly assaulted by campus protests, battered by arguments about intersectionality, and oppressed by new bathroom rights, a blameless white working class did the only thing any reasonable polity might: elect an orcish reality-television star who insists on taking his intelligence briefings in picture-book form.

An obligatory "fuck you" from me to any liberal or leftist willingly bought into this bullcrap. An obligatory "fuck yourself" to anyone that tried to put the blame on marginalized people as if it's our fault this fucking buffoon is in office.

 

[Drek]

Name one country that wasn't founded on genocide, racism and violence.

Name another country where the statement:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Is at the core of it's existence.

The problems with racism, violence, and inequality in the United States today is that it is a direct attack on what once made the United States something unique. An attempt, even if very misguided and slow moving, to deliver true equality to all people independent of race, religion, and status at birth. A true meritocracy.

The more we fail to live those ideals the more divided we become as a country and those divisions open wounds for social decay. The decline of the United States tracks in line with it's regression in the progress towards true equality.

 

[Eidan]

An obligatory "fuck you" from me to any liberal or leftist willingly bought into this bullcrap. An obligatory "fuck yourself" to anyone that tried to put the blame on marginalized people as if it's our fault this fucking buffoon is in office.

I feel like Coates needed to have a sit down with Van Jones and drill this into his head.

 

[13ruce]

👀

Wow!?
I should read the full article first tho.

 

[Arkeband]

Great read, just finished. Coates is an exemplary writer and voice of reason.

 

[Karkador]

Name another country where the statement:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Is at the core of it's existence.

The problems with racism, violence, and inequality in the United States today is that it is a direct attack on what once made the United States something unique. An attempt, even if very misguided and slow moving, to deliver true equality to all people independent of race, religion, and status at birth. A true meritocracy.

I strongly want to believe this is what America stands for, but it would be lying to say it's true.

At the very least, we must acknowledge the many, many people in our history who have succeeded in undermining this value (with no consequence).

 

[Muppet of a Man]

That's good...real good.

99% of the people in the south that would read that wouldn't understand what it is saying.

Unfortunately....

What he's saying is that white liberals and progressives dismiss white supremacy's legacy as only belonging to overt racists of the south and interior and white evangelicals. I think Coates is making an unfair generalization here, as most left wing whites are eager to tackle the issues of racism in addition to other related struggles, such as classism, out of which the rich historically pitted poor whites against blacks to create and maintain a sort of caste system which would indefinitely keep them (the rich) and their heirs wealthy, in power, and unchallenged by those who are poor, white, black, and otherwise. American history has been ugly exploition through and through, and rich whites have architected it out of race-and-class-based divide and conquer tactics.

As an outcome of being the lowest caste/rung on that ladder of wealth and power, black and native people have suffered by far the worst.

 

[Trey]

👀

hot fucking damn

 

[Condom]

Good stuff, the racist hate on Obama was incomprehensible. He was obviously intelligent and respected around the world, even by those who didn't like many of his policies like me. That Trump won on that stuff is extremely saddening. Can't even get angry because this is just something that makes you lose hope in people.

 

[Karkador]

I think Coates is making an unfair generalization here, as most left wing whites are eager to tackle the issues of racism in addition to other related struggles, such as classism, out of which the rich historically pitted poor whites against blacks to create and maintain a sort of caste system which would indefinitely keep them (the rich) and their heirs wealthy, in power, and unchallenged by those who are poor, white, black, and otherwise. American history has been ugly, and rich whites have architected it out of race-and-class-based divide and conquer tactics.

Eager enough to give reparations, though?

 

[DarkJediKnight]

👀

Damn!!! Well written.

 

[Slayven]

What he's saying is that white liberals and progressives dismiss white supremacy's legacy as only belonging to overt racists of the south and interior and white evangelicals. I think Coates is making an unfair generalization here, as most left wing whites are eager to tackle the issues of racism in addition to other related struggles, such as classism, out of which the rich historically pitted poor whites against blacks to create and maintain a sort of caste system which would indefinitely keep them (the rich) and their heirs wealthy, in power, and unchallenged by those who are poor, white, black, and otherwise. American history has been ugly, and rich whites have architected it out of race-and-class-based divide and conquer tactics.

Are they? A thousand one thinkpieces have been written about how identity politics need to be abandon, but folks on the "left"

 

[shiftplusone]

This is an essay from his new book, which I recommend everyone preorder if you like Coates writing


https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0399590560/theatla05-20/

We Were Eight Years in Power: An American Tragedy

“We were eight years in power” was the lament of Reconstruction-era black politicians as the American experiment in multiracial democracy ended with the return of white supremacist rule in the South. In this sweeping collection of new and selected essays, Ta-Nehisi Coates explores the tragic echoes of that history in our own time: the unprecedented election of a black president followed by a vicious backlash that fueled the election of the man Coates argues is America’s “first white president.”

 

[Skilletor]

What he's saying is that white liberals and progressives dismiss white supremacy's legacy as only belonging to overt racists of the south and interior and white evangelicals. I think Coates is making an unfair generalization here, as most left wing whites are eager to tackle the issues of racism in addition to other related struggles, such as classism, out of which the rich historically pitted poor whites against blacks to create and maintain a sort of caste system which would indefinitely keep them (the rich) and their heirs wealthy, in power, and unchallenged by those who are poor, white, black, and otherwise. American history has been ugly exploition through and through, and rich whites have architected it out of race-and-class-based divide and conquer tactics.

As an outcome of being the lowest caste/rung on that ladder of wealth and power, black and native people have suffered by far the worst.

I haven't seen that. I've seen a bunch of liberals saying we need to stop focusing on identity politics, tho.

Are they? A thousand one thinkpieces have been written about how identity politics need to be abandon, but folks on the "left"

^^ yep.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

Eager enough to give reparations, though?

Absolutely, at least my own thoughts on the matter.

 

[Condom]

I haven't seen that. I've seen a bunch of liberals saying we need to stop focusing on identity politics, tho.

While identity is a key factor, so is class. Both work together. Focusing on just one hampers progress imo (and researchers in this subject)

 

[Skilletor]

While identity is a key factor, so is class. Both work together. Focusing on just one hampers progress imo

But what people saying that really mean is stop talking to minorities. Even though these are universal issues.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

Are they? A thousand one thinkpieces have been written about how identity politics need to be abandon, but folks on the "left"

There is certainly a divide in the thinking on how things should be marketed, so as to win political power. But I would think that much of white liberals, especially progressives, have actual reform, not just lip service, on their agenda regarding systemic racism.

Remember, we can't do anything on a systemic level unless we have political power. There is certainly a segment of the liberal subpopulation who would downplay their own benefiting from systemic white supremacy, as it is a convenient way of justifying holding onto their own material wealth and power.

 

[Condom]

But what people saying that really mean is stop talking to minorities. Even though these are universal issues.

That I don't agree with. I guess it's really hard to balance the two since people go full in the one or the other.

 

[krazen]

While identity is a key factor, so is class. Both work together. Focusing on just one hampers progress imo

Nope; focusing on race would being it all together. While people love to say race issues are unsellable to main street white america the truth is most governmental attempts to right racial wrongs poor whites benefit as much if not more then blacks.

Class is a byproduct of institutional racism in 2017.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

There is certainly a divide in the thinking on how things should be marketed, so as to win political power. But I would think that much of white liberals, especially progressives, have actual reform, not just lip service, on their agenda regarding systemic racism.

Coates essay here spends a large amount of time carefully building the case that throughout American history, that hopeful sentiment has primarily been, and continues to be, lip service at best.

 

[Air]

Thanks for the link. Listening to it now and will share

 

[Barzul]

Ta Nehisi is so so good at taking so many of the things I'm thinking and presenting them in a logical template where it's difficult to use straw man arguments against because the points are just so well presented. I loved that he called out specific journalists too.

He's a hero.

 

[Slayven]

There is certainly a divide in the thinking on how things should be marketed, so as to win political power. But I would think that much of white liberals, especially progressives, have actual reform, not just lip service, on their agenda regarding systemic racism.

The last 8 months have shown if they do, it is so far down the list you need ropes and mining lights to find it. The editor at the Daily Kos heavy left site blamed POC when Arapio got pardoned. Like that was his first reflex, and it happens time and time again. Blaming minorities for bigotry systematic and otherwise

 

[Trey]

Coates essay here spends a large amount of time carefully building the case that throughout American history, that hopeful sentiment has primarily been, and continues to be, lip service at best.

his prose really drives home the despair and humiliation of begging for help, only to be ignored in favor of convenient ignorance, or empathy with our most strict oppressors.

 

[capitalCORN]

Some of you really need to reflect on the meaning of the term 'America's First White President'.

 

[NandoGip]

To Trump, whiteness is neither notional nor symbolic but is the very core of his power. In this, Trump is not singular. But whereas his forebears carried whiteness like an ancestral talisman, Trump cracked the glowing amulet open, releasing its eldritch energies.

Lol the visuals from this writing is nuts.

 

[Barzul]

Lol the visuals from this writing is nuts.

Right??? Dude is so talented.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

Coates essay here spends a large amount of time carefully building the case that throughout American history, that hopeful sentiment has primarily been, and continues to be, lip service at best.

Your right. Those in power on the liberal side are centrists who are "the rich liberal elite". They are primary benefactors of the historical divide and conquer tactics of the white American rich. But there are huge swaths of progressive white young people who don't have much power, relatively little wealth, and much debt. They would truly like to see material change in terms of systemic racism, but they don't have the levers of power to do it.

 

[Lime]

As always, great article by TNC.

I love the mention of Roediger as well.

 

[entremet]

Wait, is the audio version of this 50 minutes long? This isn't something I can just read during downtime then.

Double speed on your podcast app.

 

[RangerX]

Hang on a minute I'm not American, Obama actually presented his birth cert to placate those fuckin tools?! Fuckin hell.