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[brotkasten]

Hamilton - Rosberg 1-2 tomorrow and then probably Ricciardo on P3, because of Williams' poor strategy. Maybe even a Massa DNF (not that I'm hoping for that, the guy had a bad season).

 

[DBT85]

More engine talks.

Merc asked to allow 13 tokens to be used mid season, rejected and offered 5. Told to "stick it where the sun does not shine".

http://m.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116696/f1-engine-freeze-talks-collapse

The championship-winning Mercedes team had spent the last week evaluating whether to accept a one-off relaxing of the homologation rules to allow a mid-season upgrade next year.

But after analysis of the implications of the rule changes on its overall costs and the impact on its customers, Mercedes decided it could not go ahead with the proposal to allow 13 development tokens to be used next July.

Instead, it offered a compromise deal that would allow just five tokens to be used in July - something that its rivals rejected as not enough.

Horner keeps bitching about it. Everyone knew the rules were coming and they all made their choices. The vast majority of the engine can be changed for next year anyway. He keeps banging on as if they'll still be this shit at the start of next year too.

 

[theignoramus]

If you go back to Hamilton's post-qualy Spa interview it's clear that his objective with qualy now is simply to get on the front row rather than pushing everything to the limit for pole, like in Austria. I'm not discounting Rosberg's pace, it's incredible, but we don't seem to be seeing the old Hamilton everything-or-nothing pole laps.

His lock up on that p2 lap was evidence he was pushing. Nico is just a really good qualifier.
Someone said earlier though, take out Monaco, (which gets an asterisk), Hungary and Germany and its 7-7. Lets see what happens tomorrow and in Abu Dhabi.

 

[Wax Free Vanilla]

From McLaren insider on Autosport forum:

That guy nailed it.

McLaren's head of aerodynamics Doug McKiernan has been put on 'gardening leave' ahead of leaving the team.

His departure is one of several in a restructuring programme as McLaren seek to regain competitiveness for their new engine partnership with Honda from 2015.

Part of that push is their imminent signing of Ferrari's Fernando Alonso.

McKiernan's departure follows McLaren's recruitment of former Red Bull head of aerodynamics Peter Prodromou.

Prodromou has been appointed McLaren's chief engineer and the first fruits of his joining the team earlier this year will be seen in a major upgrade to this year's car for the season-ending Abu Dhabi Grand Prix in two weeks' time.

A McLaren spokesman said: "We are working extremely hard to get McLaren back to where it belongs - at the very front of the grid.

"To achieve that we have carefully reviewed everything we do and have recruited some very talented individuals.

"Now, to ensure that we do not have duplication of roles, and that we have the right people doing the right jobs, we have begun discussions with a small number of people who unfortunately do not have a role in the new structure.

"We are determined to give as much support as possible to anyone affected."

Too bad Button won't get to drive Peter P's Honda powered rocketship next season

 

[nature boy]

More engine talks.

Merc asked to allow 13 tokens to be used mid season, rejected and offered 5. Told to "stick it where the sun does not shine".

http://m.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116696/f1-engine-freeze-talks-collapse



Horner keeps bitching about it. Everyone knew the rules were coming and they all made their choices. The vast majority of the engine can be changed for next year anyway. He keeps banging on as if they'll still be this shit at the start of next year too.

Not really.

Rules state that only 48% of the power unit can be changed. Renault and Ferrari want it to be 67% but Mercedes won't budge.

 

[DD]

I've heard today (maybe I understood it wrong) that the Merc engines are using HALF of fuel pumping pressure compared with Ferrari and Renault engines. So their advantage might be bigger than it appears, and maybe this explains why their cars spend less fuel, even being more powerful. Hell,they may be running with lighter car because of that...

 

[Nicktendo86]

That guy nailed it.




Too bad Button won't get to drive Peter P's Honda powered rocketship next season

Just read that on the autosport forum, exciting!

 

[duckroll]

Was too tired so I totally missed qualifying yesterday. Hopefully the race is good. Brazil is usually fun. Is the forecast still saying there'll be rain?

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

I've heard today (maybe I understood it wrong) that the Merc engines are using HALF of fuel pumping pressure compared with Ferrari and Renault engines. So their advantage might be bigger than it appears, and maybe this explains why their cars spend less fuel, even being more powerful. Hell,they may be running with lighter car because of that...

That's an amazing advantage.

 

[DBT85]

Not really.

Rules state that only 48% of the power unit can be changed. Renault and Ferrari want it to be 67% but Mercedes won't budge.

My apologies, I was reading the information wrong. However, Mercedes did offer 5 more tokens, not nothing at all.

It's only 8% of the actual engine that is really frozen, they can develop any of the the other 92%, the just have to choose which 48% to do. They all agreed to the regulations for very good reasons.

I have little sympathy with either Red Bull or Ferrari, they've had all year to work out what they want to change for next season and they had plenty of time in the leadup to this season to get it right in the first place. They've both been getting more money than any other team for several years to blow on it. Neither of them have the financial restrictions of pretty much any other team so of course they don't care about the costs of the engines going up again with new upgrades allowed mid season.

While Horner was complaining a little toward the end of the V8 era about the V8, that engine was actually frozen in development, nothing like what we have with the current regs. Ferrari weren't complaining too much about frozen engines then.

One challenge they all have for next year is that they have to also only use 4 PUs all year, compared to the 5 for this year.

EDIT: Interesting breakdown of the Mercedes PU by Scarbs.
http://youtu.be/WD4KJorL0wQ


Also another video on their gearbox, only run by Merc and FI, believed to have been the brainchild of the renowned and, "for sure", useless, Aldo Costa
http://youtu.be/rUCapV3p2J4

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

I haven't kept up that much, but what is the reasoning to limit so much gearboxes and engines?

 

[Addnan]

I haven't kept up that much, but what is the reasoning to limit so much gearboxes and engines?

Cost apparently, because that has helped so much.

 

[Juicy Bob]

You have to imagine that Formula 1 would have completely collapsed by now if they hadn't started restricting things like engines and gearboxes over the last decade.

 

[DBT85]

To save costs. The idea being that to make 5 PUs per driver to last all season costs less than say, 20.

Also the development restrictions are in a similar vein. Instead of a manufacturer trying to design, engineer, test and supply new parts every week or month for every team they supply (since they all have to get the same), instead they only bring new parts for the engines at the end of the season.

So they are still designing and testing, but not on the same scale of manufacturing. Consider that this season Mercedes had to make 40 complete PUs just for themselves, Williams, McLaren and Force India for the season. That's not including any they made for pre season testing, and extras they might have used outside of their 5 allotment.

Having to make and supply 8 of each part, plus spares regularly for new parts would be expensive. Though Ferrari say it won't change a thing!

 

[Ark]

You have to recognise how much Mercedes have done, and are doing, for F1. Even though I don't agree with it, I can absolutely understand why they keep blocking the engine unfreeze.

 

[nature boy]

My apologies, I was reading the information wrong. However, Mercedes did offer 5 more tokens, not nothing at all.

It's only 8% of the actual engine that is really frozen, they can develop any of the the other 92%, the just have to choose which 48% to do. They all agreed to the regulations for very good reasons.

Yep, Mercedes are making some concessions on when you can introduce changes, but not how much you change. Ferrari and Renault/Red Bull want to change more than 48% of their design.

I have little sympathy with either Red Bull or Ferrari, they've had all year to work out what they want to change for next season and they had plenty of time in the leadup to this season to get it right in the first place. They've both been getting more money than any other team for several years to blow on it. Neither of them have the financial restrictions of pretty much any other team so of course they don't care about the costs of the engines going up again with new upgrades allowed mid season.

I say spend all you want, but you can only sell the PU for 15 or 20 million to the teams (V8 prices I believe). 5 PUs do not cost 30 million to make, it's about R&D. Let's see then what the manufacturers say about being sustainable, although I do feel it's a bit unfair to freeze such a new technology.

And Mercedes are playing the winner game: why should they spend more money when they have the best PU? If they didn't have the best PU, they would be complaining just like everyone else.

While Horner was complaining a little toward the end of the V8 era about the V8, that engine was actually frozen in development, nothing like what we have with the current regs. Ferrari weren't complaining too much about frozen engines then.

One challenge they all have for next year is that they have to also only use 4 PUs all year, compared to the 5 for this year.

EDIT: Interesting breakdown of the Mercedes PU by Scarbs.
http://youtu.be/WD4KJorL0wQ


Also another video on their gearbox, only run by Merc and FI, believed to have been the brainchild of the renowned and, "for sure", useless, Aldo Costa
http://youtu.be/rUCapV3p2J4

It's funny, back in the Schumacher days it was one engine PER SESSION, unlimited testing, free tires, and F1 didn't have the revenue it has today. So a lot of progress has been made but the manufacturers can't pass off the cost of their PUs to the teams. F1 bent over to keep them happy and if it stays like this it will end being a manufacturer sport.

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

But doesn't the limit hurt more unreliable teams that don't have the massive testing and money behind it? Is it a catch 22?

 

[itsgreen]

Just give me back my V10 engines! With practice engines, qually engines and race engines Those were the times. They actually blew quite often because hey were designed to be more on the limit of that 305km per race

 

[Myoclonic Jerk]

Mercedes just want to make sure they buy more time before agreeing to the other teams' demands. I'm very confident that they'll succumb


Anyone else here feel that his/her interest in the sport fell sharply this year? Engines sounds or Mercedes dominance, or for any other reason?

For me, this year I've been the least interested in the sport since I've started watching F1 so many years ago. I thought I'd be more interested with the new regs and all..

 

[Nicktendo86]

To save costs. The idea being that to make 5 PUs per driver to last all season costs less than say, 20.

Also the development restrictions are in a similar vein. Instead of a manufacturer trying to design, engineer, test and supply new parts every week or month for every team they supply (since they all have to get the same), instead they only bring new parts for the engines at the end of the season.

So they are still designing and testing, but not on the same scale of manufacturing. Consider that this season Mercedes had to make 40 complete PUs just for themselves, Williams, McLaren and Force India for the season. That's not including any they made for pre season testing, and extras they might have used outside of their 5 allotment.

Having to make and supply 8 of each part, plus spares regularly for new parts would be expensive. Though Ferrari say it won't change a thing!

But they do sell those power units don't they, whilst they obviously do pit a lot into R&D etc it is not entirely out of the goodness of their heart.

 

[theignoramus]

Mercedes just want to make sure they buy more time before agreeing to the other teams' demands. I'm very confident that they'll succumb


Anyone else here feel that his/her interest in the sport fell sharply this year? Engines sounds or Mercedes dominance, or for any other reason?

For me, this year I've been the least interested in the sport since I've started watching F1 so many years ago. I thought I'd be more interested with the new regs and all..

If Kimi wasnt having a turd of a season, you know full well youd be more interested. Anyway, the action on track has been great. Much better than it was last year. However yes, some things are deeply troubling, like the insane idea that the sport continues indefinitely with a low decibel track experience (that situation is untenable) and how critical fuel saving can be at any given circuit.

 

[Ark]

Mercedes just want to make sure they buy more time before agreeing to the other teams' demands. I'm very confident that they'll succumb


Anyone else here feel that his/her interest in the sport fell sharply this year? Engines sounds or Mercedes dominance, or for any other reason?

For me, this year I've been the least interested in the sport since I've started watching F1 so many years ago. I thought I'd be more interested with the new regs and all..

I've been exactly the opposite. Some of the racing this year has been spectacular and we actually have a good championship battle on our hands. Qualy has been boring as all heck though, even worse than the Vettel era.

 

[duckroll]

But doesn't the limit hurt more unreliable teams that don't have the massive testing and money behind it? Is it a catch 22?

Not really. I mean, realistically, if you're a team with no budget and poor reliability, that generally means you're at the back of the grid anyway. If that's the case, you're not really penalized when you exceed the cap, since you're... already at the back of the grid.

 

[Norwegian Rudo]

And Mercedes are playing the winner game: why should they spend more money when they have the best PU? If they didn't have the best PU, they would be complaining just like everyone else.

And if Red Bull and Ferrari were ahead they would absolutely certainly say no to any extra development. I laugh every time Horner and Mattiachi try to play the "for the good of the sport" card, it's so transparently self serving bullshit.

 

[Myoclonic Jerk]

If Kimi wasnt having a turd of a season, you know full well youd be more interested. Anyway, the action on track has been great. Much better than it was last year. However yes, some things are deeply troubling, like the insane idea that the sport continues indefinitely with a low decibel track experience (that situation is untenable) and how critical fuel saving can be at any given circuit.

I'm sure Kimi getting thrashed by Alonso plays into it, but I've enjoyed 2010 and 2011 so much. I used to be in a good mood for the whole weekend just because there's a race. Now it's more like "meh".. And it's not like I found another hobby or anything. It's a weird feeling.

I've been exactly the opposite. Some of the racing this year has been spectacular and we actually have a good championship battle on our hands. Qualy has been boring as all heck though, even worse than the Vettel era.

So you feel the sport is still as exciting as before, if not more?

 

[Myoclonic Jerk]

And if Red Bull and Ferrari were ahead they would absolutely certainly say no to any extra development. I laugh every time Horner and Mattiachi try to play the "for the good of the sport" card, it's so transparently self serving bullshit.

Not necessarily. Of course each team will push to be in a better situation, but big teams are not stupid either. They know that absolute dominance by one team will scare away, even more, the sponsors. And that's a concern they all share.

 

[Norwegian Rudo]

Not necessarily. Of course each team will push to be in a better situation, but big teams are not stupid either. They know that absolute dominance by one team will scare away, even more, the sponsors. And that's a concern they all share.

Yeah right. They won't give up one dollar to help the small teams, but they will throw away a huge competitive advantage "for the good of the sport". Not in a million years.

If Mercedes relent, it will be because they get something else that they really want in return.

 

[TCRS]

this season was/is certainly exciting but yeah I do miss the V8s. dat sound when going through the tunnel at monaco. this year it was just like eh whatever.

 

[nature boy]

Not necessarily. Of course each team will push to be in a better situation, but big teams are not stupid either. They know that absolute dominance by one team will scare away, even more, the sponsors. And that's a concern they all share.

I disagree. If the smaller teams leave the sport, it just means more money for them and also more leverage with Bernie.

If anything, any interest the big teams (manufacturers) have in "saving the sport" is to mitigate their R&D costs on these new PUs.

I recommend watching the US TP press conference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5L8xQlCPxU

 

[Ark]

So you feel the sport is still as exciting as before, if not more?

Absolutely. Some of the races this year have been boring, Sochi and Austin to name a couple, but this is supremely more exciting than 2010 (championship aside), 2011, and 2013.

 

[Krilekk]

You have to recognise how much Mercedes have done, and are doing, for F1. Even though I don't agree with it, I can absolutely understand why they keep blocking the engine unfreeze.

They will come to their senses when nobody is watching F1 anymore.

 

[Myoclonic Jerk]

Absolutely. Some of the races this year have been boring, Sochi and Austin to name a couple, but this is supremely more exciting than 2010 (championship aside), 2011, and 2013.

Boring races are inevitable. We're certainly seeing better races than the early 2000's. So I agree with you.

I hope what I'm feeling is temporary.

 

[Ruruja]

Absolutely. Some of the races this year have been boring, Sochi and Austin to name a couple, but this is supremely more exciting than 2010 (championship aside), 2011, and 2013.

2010 was a great season, and had some super races, like Turkey for example.

 

[nature boy]

So Sky reporting that next year, if Marussia and Caterham don't make it, Ferrari and Red Bull will have 3 cars.

And the small teams - Lotus, Force India and Sauber - are not happy with the recent developments and the bigger teams want it to be a 5 team series with 3 cars.

Edit: Thought I heard Mclaren but everyone is reporting just Ferrari and Red Bull.

 

[Fisico]

About Caterham, they're already almost halfway there for their crowdfunding campain in less than 48h, it looks like they could make it.

 

[Dilly]

A dinner date for only 550 pounds with Kobayashi is a steal!

 

[DrM]

So Sky reporting that next year, if Marussia and Caterham don't make it, Ferrari and Red Bull will have 3 cars.
.

Two biggest whiners with additional testing car in each race. No wonder they are pushing this agenda so much

 

[nature boy]

Two biggest whiners with additional testing car in each race. No wonder they are pushing this agenda so much

Source is the Times correspondent btw, so no B.S.
I believe their contract with Bernie mandates that on request they provide a third car.
It's been rumored that Mercedes doesn't have that in their contract.

 

[nature boy]

Bernie Ecclestone and F1 to welcome customer cars for 2016 season

Sounds like a great plan.

 

[Aiii]

Van Der Garde just did an interview on Dutch TV and pretty much confirmed he has a signed contract (at the Contract Recognition Board) for next year. Robert Doornbos (who has ties to the GVDG's financial backer, Michel Boekhoorn, who is also his father-in-law), confirmed that they signed a contract last summer.

So yeah, Sauber is in big trouble, considering Sutil is probably in the same boat, with a contract for next year that is being broken, there will be some lawsuits I'm sure.

 

[navanman]

Bernie Ecclestone and F1 to welcome customer cars for 2016 season

Sounds like a great plan.

Terrible idea.
Death knell for engineering and invention outside the top teams. Will put lots of people behind the scenes out of work.

 

[Wax Free Vanilla]

Ferrari, Red Bull and McLaren have it in their contracts that they need to fill in if there's not enough cars on the grid.

AMUS said that Mercedes and Williams would be next in line to provide a third car if either of those three couldn't. They also said The Demon Head Master would cover the cost, but Ron Dennis said in the Telegraph that McLaren wouldn't run a third car because of the cost involve ($35M) so who know.


F1 will be gone within the next 10 years anyway, who wants to watch a series filled with talentless pay drivers?

 

[Dilly]

Terrible idea for the sport this.

 

[nature boy]

Terrible idea.
Death knell for engineering and invention outside the top teams. Will put lots of people behind the scenes out of work.

They don't care. It's all about floating F1 in the stock market.

 

[DBT85]

Oh Bernie Bernie Bernie. I hope CVC kick him out for being a stupid cunt.

The grim news of customer cars was given to the teams when they met with Ecclestone on Saturday night, and was met with abject horror, though this is what some of the smaller teams have been warning about for years now.

One prominent insider said on Sunday, just before the start of the Brazilian Grand Prix: “This is a sleazy and appalling way to go about it.”

The news means that soft drink manufacturer Red Bull could field as many as five cars next year, including their two Toro Rosso cars.

Bernie Ecclestone, the sport’s chief executive, said on Sunday: “The way forward is very easy – don’t spend as much. We are giving these teams collectively $900m and that’s enough. They have enough to survive but not in the way they are surviving. Start running the business like a business rather than a hobby.”

 

[Juicy Bob]

Brazil, you have an awesome anthem.

 

[nature boy]

Oh Bernie Bernie Bernie. I hope CVC kick him out for being a stupid cunt.

You must be joking.

 

[FuturusX]

Terrible idea.
Death knell for engineering and invention outside the top teams. Will put lots of people behind the scenes out of work.

When this happens I'm out.

 

[Lemonte]

Never noticed before that Massa is getting bald.

 

[Wax Free Vanilla]

So Ricciardo, Kvyat and Verstappen at Red Bull Racing next season.

R.I.P Toro Rosso