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[TAJ]

Then it'd just be private security

We Snow Crash then

Or almost the entirety of human history.

 

[therealjay]

Literally every single time someone defends the police, they deflect the blame on black people.

Makes you think...

How in the world am I deflecting back on black people? It's clearly not "their" fault they make up the majority of this countries underclass. That's a confluence of several reasons including simply inheriting family wealth.

The situation is what it is. And almost every single response putting words in my mouth is annoying.

 

[Not]

"Putting words in my mouth"

Starting to hate that one

We need to redefine the concept of "implication" to the masses

 

[TalonJH]

Who?

Never heard of these guys.

It's interesting to me how many people have not heard of the FoP. If you look you'll see a lot of cars with their stickers and license plates. Looks like this:

 

[midramble]

What is your understanding of why the police force was created in the United states of america?

Started as a volunteer system pre-revolution then to volunteer and for-profit that evolved as legislation and municipalities did into a public system. For-profit organizations being more notorious. Not much more beyond that.

Though since you asked I assumed deeper racial contexts so you've got me reading chunks of book now on southern private slave patrol police systems, literally being "legitimate" law enforcement agencies centered around human injustice...

 

[DragonSworne]

I knew my post was going to get attention when I hit submit. And this is probably not the thread for it but here's my opinion.

Aside from a few bad apples I don't think racism is the police's problem. The problem in America is the war on drugs. When you take inner cities and dump a shitload of people in them with no money and no prospects. Literally a permanent underclass and their only way to make a living is to turn to selling drugs or other illegal things you are going to get huge clashes between that population and the police force.

It's just the way it is. And I think this is where Black Lives Matter misses the plot. Being a patrolman in West Baltimore or Chicago is a dangerous fucking job and you better be ready to kick some ass. It's just the reality of the situation. Until drugs like heroin and cocaine (and it's derivatives) are either legaglized and regulated or the punishments go way down the violence between the population itself and the population and the police is going to continue to escalate.

That's why I mention Baltimore specifically and why I mention the murder rate of unarmed black civilians. Yes there is clearly some bias amoungst some groups of police. But I highly highly doubt it's any higher then the general population. The issue is the war on drugs and it's been the issue for a long time now.

Police cameras might help with those unarmed people being shot or some of the crazy videos we've seen. But we are a nation of 300+ million and all those videos together don't count for that much. The real killing is going on in America's inner cities and people need to wake up to this.

I don't get why it's not more obvious.

The problem with this argument is that these drugs exist in rich white neighborhoods too. The police force was established to beat and keep the poor and minorities away from the upper class. The war on drugs hasn't changed this. It's only given them more tools to work with.

Take away the war on drugs and the police will still beat and kill minorities because that is their job.

Their endorsement of Trump makes this loud and clear.

 

[commedieu]

Started as a volunteer system pre-revolution then to volunteer and for-profit that evolved as legislation and municipalities did into a public system. For-profit organizations being more notorious. Not much more beyond that.

Though since you asked I assumed deeper racial contexts so you've got me reading chunks of book now on southern private slave patrol police systems, literally being "legitimate" law enforcement agencies centered around human injustice...

There is no assumption of "racial contexts." It's the history of the police force here. Going all the way back to native Americans.

 

[therealjay]

"Putting words in my mouth"

Starting to hate that one

We need to redefine the concept of "implication" to the masses

Hate it all you want. Me stating the war on drugs is the major reasons for the current policing enviroment clearly has merit. Just look at the statistics on drug arrests and the addiction problem these cities face.

Northern VA is about two hours south of me. Very diverse. I can't remember the last time there was a police shooting. Why? Well having armed dealers in open air drug markets probably has something to do with it. Or the 30 murders per 100,000 people. But let's just ignore the issues in the inner cities and blame it on the racist police hive mind.

Maybe our liberal government could take that 38 billion dollars going to Israel and help. Shit you could probably fix several cities with that kind of cash. But nah Hillary won't do that and neither will Trump. And people will continue to bitch without getting to the core of the problem. The schools are failing in out inner cities. The population is failing. The police are failing and their politicians are failing. And in all the really bad ones residents are leaving. But fuck it police cameras will fix the issue. What a joke.

Does the war on drugs ending stop all police brutality. Obviously not. There's always going to be some douchebag that gets off on teeing off on young black kids. But you make a huge dent. Gurantee that.

The problem with this argument is that these drugs exist in rich white neighborhoods too. The police force was established to beat and keep the poor and minorities away from the upper class. The war on drugs hasn't changed this. It's only given them more tools to work with.

Take away the war on drugs and the police will still beat and kill minorities because that is their job.

Their endorsement of Trump makes this loud and clear.

I don't agree. The directive in most of these police forces is street level drug arrests because of shit politicians. You take that away and all of a sudden there's a whole lot less to police.

Here's the deal though without major investment into everything else crumbling in these cities your going to end up with another set of problems.

I don't doubt that middle class and up whites use drugs but they do it different. It's not heron or crack off the street. It's that xanax prescription Mom has or the Percocet prescription that little Johnny got hooked on and he's now buying them from his aunt. It's just done differently.


Edited.

 

[Mental Atrophy]

I meant public resources as in clean parks, streets, and other nice amenities. Figured police districts were based on crime rate. Density and infrastructure makes sense as well.

Thanks for the info. I wonder how many other cities are done that way.

Fun fact, San Francisco has both a chief of police and a sheriff because the city and county are the same entity. Though the sheriff handles staffing jails and court stuff I believe, while the chief still handles the department forces. (again, my understanding)

Portland is only a small geographic portion of our county, but is massively larger than the county sheriff in terms of funding and personnel because most of the county is state park. The sheriff have their own separate offices, but the county jail is in the basement of Portland Police Bureau's headquarters so there's still some overlap, and they often borrow each other's personnel if a given organization doesn't have a K9 or non-lethal close enough to a given incident, and I don't even think the county has their own SWAT-like entity. Portland is also the only entity in the county with its own aircraft, so they help out there too. Their aircraft are fixed wing and take awhile to spin up if they aren't already active, so sometimes they borrow my organization's as a last resort (because, rightfully, there's a lot of bureaucracy and authorization to task a federal entity for local law enforcement purposes).

 

[midramble]

I wonder how much elected police commissioners would change the judicial landscape. What are the political ramifications of that? Because in the current state there is enforcement without representation. That stuff starts revolutions.

 

[Gorger]

I am shocked, wait...whats the opposite of shocked

Shocked

 

[kame-sennin]

Without police, there would be no rule of law

There is no rule of law in the U.S., the police are a perfect example of that. In order for rule of law to exist, it has to be enforced blindly. We know for a fact that the law does not apply equally to police, bankers, or politicians who sanction war crimes. What we have are a set of codes written by the wealthy and imposed on the poor and working class.

Safest communities have more resources because of the tax money they can spend that comes from the money that exists in that neighborhood. (at least this is my understanding)

Their money comes from land and labor stolen from indigenous and black peoples. If you want to see what happens when black communities bootstrap and build themselves up, look at Tulsa, Oklahoma.

Can we please dismantle the police force in the United States?

We're slowly moving in that direction. People just can't stand the idea that police are simply a gang.

The problem with this argument is that these drugs exist in rich white neighborhoods too. The police force was established to beat and keep the poor and minorities away from the upper class. The war on drugs hasn't changed this. It's only given them more tools to work with.

Take away the war on drugs and the police will still beat and kill minorities because that is their job.

Their endorsement of Trump makes this loud and clear.

Preach.

 

[Marvie_3]

White supremacist union backs white supremacist candidate.

Pretty much.

 

[Mumei]

Started as a volunteer system pre-revolution then to volunteer and for-profit that evolved as legislation and municipalities did into a public system. For-profit organizations being more notorious. Not much more beyond that.

Though since you asked I assumed deeper racial contexts so you've got me reading chunks of book now on southern private slave patrol police systems, literally being "legitimate" law enforcement agencies centered around human injustice...

These are some good resources for background:

A Brief History of Slavery and the Origins of American Policing
The History of Policing in the United States, Part 1
A Report from Occupied Territory
Blood On Their Hands: The Racist History of Modern Police Unions

And a couple good articles / interviews:

The KKK Has Infiltrated U.S. Police Departments For Decades
An interview with the Baltimore cop who’s revealing all the horrible things he saw on the job

 

[Paz]

If ever you needed proof of how utterly fucked your police system is, this is it.

 

[InfiniteBento]

This is terrifying.

Im not surprised but I am absolutely disgusted by this.

 

[kame-sennin]

I don't doubt that middle class and up whites use drugs but they do it different. It's not heron or crack off the street. It's that xanax prescription Mom has or the Percocet prescription that little Johnny got hooked on and he's now buying them from his aunt. It's just done differently.

The racism... wow.

 

[midramble]

There is no rule of law in the U.S., the police are a perfect example of that. In order for rule of law to exist, it has to be enforced blindly. We know for a fact that the law does not apply equally to police, bankers, or politicians who sanction war crimes. What we have are a set of codes written by the wealthy and imposed on the poor and working class.

None at all? There is enforcement to the letter of the law and in the spirit of the law. Though, that is left up to the officer and his superiors to decide. This creates the problem you are talking about. Hence why I believe commissioners should be elected so that they represent more directly the civilians they are supposed to protect and do enact enforcement over. Are you saying that no crimes are stopped at all? That white collar crime always goes unpunished and that street crime is enforced %100 of the time. It's not in the correct balance, you're correct, but that is because of the poor culture in the police force and the lack of conviction of a commissioner to represent it's people, especially the vocal minority. Since mayors appoint, and majors aren't elected only for their judicial appointments, the status quo in the police force doesn't change.

The system is unbalanced but that doesn't mean it doesn't work at all. It does definitely need to change. That's why I'm asking the repercussions earlier to get more info on where to start.

Tulsa, Oklahoma[/URL].
.

You're right. It's fucked up and wrong. I actually support reparations. I wasn't saying that's the way it should be, I'm saying that's the way it currently is.

 

[Mental Atrophy]

Portland Police Bureau's commissioner is the mayor, which is an elected official. This only exacerbates any of the usual strife between a commissioner and his force, and should probably be a separately elected role.

 

[Mumei]

I don't doubt that middle class and up whites use drugs but they do it different. It's not heron or crack off the street. It's that xanax prescription Mom has or the Percocet prescription that little Johnny got hooked on and he's now buying them from his aunt. It's just done differently.

Study: Whites More Likely to Abuse Drugs Than Blacks

Using data from 72,561 youth interviewed for the National Survey on Drug Use and Health, researchers found that 37% of those aged between 12 and 17 had used alcohol or other drugs at least once in the past year. Nearly 8% met criteria for a substance use disorder — either the less severe “substance abuse” diagnosis or the more problematic “substance dependence,” which is more commonly known as addiction.

The study, which was published Monday in the Archives of General Psychiatry, controlled for variables like socioeconomic status because rates of severe drug problems tend to be greater amongst the poor. Despite this, Native American youth fared worst, with 15% having a substance use disorder, compared to 9.2% for people of mixed racial heritage, 9.0% for whites, 7.7% for Hispanics, 5% for African Americans and 3.5% for Asians and Pacific Islanders.

When It Comes To Illegal Drug Use, White America Does The Crime, Black America Gets The Time

Nearly 20 percent of whites have used cocaine, compared with 10 percent of blacks and Latinos, according to a 2011 survey from the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration — the most recent data available.

Higher percentages of whites have also tried hallucinogens, marijuana, pain relievers like OxyContin, and stimulants like methamphetamine, according to the survey. Crack is more popular among blacks than whites, but not by much.

Still, blacks are arrested for drug possession more than three times as often as whites, according to a 2009 report from the advocacy group Human Rights Watch.

You're relying on stereotypes and conjecture, and whatever heuristic you are using to come to your conclusion is unreliable.

 

[midramble]

I don't doubt that middle class and up whites use drugs but they do it different. It's not heron or crack off the street. It's that xanax prescription Mom has or the Percocet prescription that little Johnny got hooked on and he's now buying them from his aunt. It's just done differently.

The racism... wow.

Just saw this. Different? Down in SoCal Bakersfield my upper middle white high school was packed full of college prep kids that had meth as a drug of choice. Hell, my class president was the school's go to coke dealer and he graduated junior year to get a full ride at USC...

I assume you're actual point is that middle and upper class white drug culture has less violence, but it has the same sales culture which gets infinitely more slaps on the wrist than the poor black community for softer drugs such as weed.

And even worse, coke, a white drug of choice, fuels more death in mexican border towns than in wartime iraq and afghanistan. But they like to pretend their hands are clean? That crap makes me sick.

So yes, the war on drugs is a major problem but you can't ignore that there is a racially specific unbalanced representation on punishment.

 

[Josh7289]

This will do a lot of good for public-police relations

 

[therealjay]

Just saw this. Different? Down in SoCal Bakersfield my upper middle white high school was packed full of college prep kids that had meth as a drug of choice. Hell, my class president was the school's go to coke dealer and he graduated junior year to get a full ride at USC...

I assume you're actual point is that middle and upper class white drug culture has less violence, but it has the same sales culture which gets infinitely more slaps on the wrist than the poor black community for softer drugs such as weed.

And even worse, coke, a white drug of choice, fuels more death in mexican border towns than in wartime iraq and afghanistan. But they like to pretend their hands are clean? That crap makes me sick.

So yes, the ware on drugs is a major problem but you can't ignore that there is a racially specific unbalanced representation on punishment.

No it absolutely does not have the same sales culture. I can go down fayette street in baltimore and score some dope from some kid within ten minutes of looking.

No one has "clean hands" in all of this. Of that there is no doubt.

The racism... wow.

GTFO with things you have no clue about. I spent years copping dope on the street all the way from Jersey to DC. We'd literally go on DEA websites to find out where the purest shit was being sold or who was falling off on what bags. I also got pills off of white kids/adults around where I lived. It's completely different full stop.

Again with the fucking fantasy land.

Anyway my last post on the topic. People have no interest in reality.

 

[therealjay]

No it absolutely does not have the same sales culture. I can go down fayette street in baltimore and score some dope from some kid within ten minutes of looking.

No one has "clean hands" in all of this. Of that there is no doubt.



GTFO with things you have no clue about. I spent years copping dope on the street all the way from Jersey to DC. We'd literally go on DEA websites to find out where the purest shit was being sold or who was falling off on what bags. I also got pills off of white kids/adults around where I lived. It's completely different full stop.

Again with the fucking fantasy land.

Anyway my last post on the topic. People have no interest in reality.


Oh and by the way from the paper someone posted to prove my racism/ignorance on this issue. Heres a quote.

“The race issue isn’t just that the judge is going, ‘Oh, black man, I’m gonna sentence you higher,’” she said. “The police go into low-income minority neighborhoods and that’s where they make most of their drug arrests. If they arrest you, now you have a ‘prior,’ so if you plead or get arrested again, you’re gonna have a higher sentence. There’s a kind of cumulative effect.”

 

[johnsmith]

While I am normally pro-Union, I would be more than ok with the dismantling of police unions. Bad cops get away with too much.

 

[ericexpo]

Gives me a excuse to not give them money when they call, not that I ever did before.

 

[Mumei]

Oh and by the way from the paper someone posted to prove my racism/ignorance on this issue. Heres a quote.

I'm not sure what you are trying to communicate with that quote. Was someone denying that there were cumulative effects caused by the concentration of policing of petty crimes / drug possession in lower income, predominantly black communities?

And I was not posting to "prove your racism/ignorance." I posted as a correction to an assertion that you made - "middle class and up whites use drugs but they do it different" - that is inaccurate. It's not about you.

And another example where explanations for drug usage differences fall flat, from The New Jim Crow:

In 2002, a team of researchers at the University of Washington decided to take the defenses of the drug war seriously, by subjecting the arguments to empirical testing in a major study of drug-law enforcement in a racially mixed city - Seattle. The study found that, contrary to the prevailing "common sense," the high arrest rates of African Americans in drug-law enforcement could not be explained by rates of offending; nor could they be explained by other standard excuses, such as the ease and efficiency of policing open-air drug markets, citizen complaints, crime rates, or drug-related violence. The study also debunked the assumption that white drug dealers deal indoors, making their criminal activity more difficult to detect.

The authors found that it was untrue stereotypes about crack markets, crack dealers, and crack babies - not facts - that were driving discretionary decision making by the Seattle Police Department. The facts were as follows: Seattle residents were far more likely to report suspected narcotics activity in residences - not outdoors - but police devoted their resources to open-air drug markets and to the one precinct that was least likely to be identified as the site of suspected drug activity in citizen complaints. In fact, although hundreds of outdoor drug transactions were recorded in predominantly white areas of Seattle, police concentrated their drug enforcement efforts in one downtown drug market where the frequency of drug transactions was much lower. In racially mixed open-air drug markets, black dealers were far more likely to be arrested than whites, even though white dealers were present and visible. And the department focused overwhelmingly on crack - the one drug in Seattle more likely to be sold by African Americans - despite the fact that local hospital records indicated that overdose deaths involving heroin were more numerous than all overdose deaths for crack and powder cocaine combined. Local police acknowledged that no significant level of violence was associated with crack in Seattle and that other drugs were causing more hospitalizations, but steadfastly maintained that their deployment decisions were nondiscriminatory.

The study's authors concluded, based on their review and analysis of the empirical evidence, that the Seattle Police Department's decision to focus so heavily on crack, to the near exclusion of other drugs, and to concentrate its efforts on outdoor drug markets in downtown areas rather than drug markets located indoors or in predominantly white communities, reflect "a racialized conception of the drug problem." As the authors put it: "[The Seattle Police Department's] foucs on black and Latino individuals and on the drug most strongly associated with 'blackness' suggest that law enforcement policies and practices are predicated on the assumption that the drug problem is, in fact, a black and Latino one, and that crack, the drug most strongly associated with urban blacks, is 'the worst.' This racialized cultural script about who and what constitutes the drug problem renders illegal drug activity by whites invisible. "White people," the study's author's observed, "are simply not perceived as drug offenders by Seattle police officers.

 

[Staccat0]

Kinda disgusting any police union would support someone who wasn't for making it even remotely harder for a criminal to get guns.

In past elections they have sometimes simply not endorsed anyone at all.

Not really useful.

 

[sazzy]

Cops in this organization, and those who support this organization, are pigs.

What else is there to say about those support a racist?

 

[kame-sennin]

I still cannot fathom why a union and a police union at that would support a Republican candidate considering they hate unions

While I am normally pro-Union, I would be more than ok with the dismantling of police unions.

Police unions have never been treated the way labor unions are:

n Chicago, for instance, businessmen donated money to buy the police rifles, artillery, Gatling guns, buildings, and money to establish a police pension out of their own pockets.

Police separate themselves from the working class by taking the role of enforcer for the ownership class:

Class conflict roiled late nineteenth century American cities like Chicago, which experienced major strikes and riots in 1867, 1877, 1886, and 1894. In each of these upheavals, the police attacked strikers with extreme violence...

n 1885, when Chicago began to experience a wave of strikes, some policemen sympathized with strikers. But once the police hierarchy and the mayor decided to break the strikes, policemen who refused to comply were fired. In these and a thousand similar ways, the police were molded into a force that would impose order on working class and poor people, whatever the individual feelings of the officers involved.

No police officer can be working class in just the same way as no black officer can be anti-racist. The job of policing provides privileges that the working class and minorities wouldn't otherwise have access to. These privileges are won by enforcing a system of economic inequality and white supremacy.

The above quotes are from this article (which is worth a read):

http://lawcha.org/wordpress/2014/12...ce-created-control-working-class-poor-people/

The police were created to use violence to reconcile electoral democracy with industrial capitalism. Today, they are just one part of the “criminal justice” system which continues to play the same role. Their basic job is to enforce order among those with the most reason to resent the system – who in our society today are disproportionately poor black people.

 

[Shadybiz]

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/donate/

Oh yeah I'm all about Hillary. This is insane. I learned last night that my dad is a Trump supporter, and I was dumbstruck, because he's usually a pretty forward thinking person. Now...he WILL watch the debates, and I know in my heart that if she slaughters Trump in the debates, he will have the good sense to change his mind; he really will. But there are a whole hell of a lot of people that will not watch the debates at all, and just go on believing whatever they see posted on Facebook until it's over.

I've watched those kids grow up for the past 13 years;..from diapers and Spongebob to dating and driving age. They are like sons and daughters to me at this point. My wife and I take care of them, support them emotionally and sometimes financially, and make sure that everything is okay. I cannot stand the idea that they may get pulled over and shot, or simply mistreated, just because of the color of their skin. This is what's happening now, and most of us white people are not understanding what's going on, or they dismiss it, because they don't have to care. To have this racist idiot in charge of a whole bunch of other racist idiots is horrifying. It's just a goddamn mess.

 

[Serpico99]

This is utterly terrifying.

Well at least we know where they stand, which was obvious. Feels like the shallow american stereotype shit in GTA and South Park is becoming a reality.

 

[PopeReal]

1. Eastern Oregon has a huge, HUGE drug problem. And we are white. Really white.

2. A police union openly supporting a racist candidate is not surprising, but fuck if it isn't scary as hell.

 

[HStallion]

Imagine if Donald Trump wins this election.

Imagine it.

At this point I wonder if he won't win. I see more and more people just eating up his shit and repeating the same sad ass shit about Hillary or the third parties.

 

[MattKeil]

No one has "clean hands" in all of this. Of that there is no doubt.



GTFO with things you have no clue about. I spent years copping dope on the street all the way from Jersey to DC. We'd literally go on DEA websites to find out where the purest shit was being sold or who was falling off on what bags. I also got pills off of white kids/adults around where I lived. It's completely different full stop.

And every white druggie I know is on heroin or some kind of substitute, including someone who died of an OD a couple weeks back. So whose anecdote proves the nature of the entirety of white drug use in America? Your contortions are impressive, but not particularly convincing.

 

[daveo42]

Already gearing up for inevitable announcement of national martian law to combat illegal aliens and foreign agents of terror.

 

[Banana Aeon]

Already gearing up for inevitable announcement of national martian law to combat illegal aliens and foreign agents of terror.

Vote for Clinton then. Only way that's going to happen if Trump get's into the White House.

 

[watershed]

This is why police are supporting trump. Yes, some are racist, but others see a candidate who sympathizes with the very difficult job they have and the problems with public perception that are affecting that job.

I'm a staunch liberal and most assuredly not an all lives / blue lives idiot like some are, but painting entire groups with such a broad brush gets no one anywhere. I'm really sick of people on GAF doing drive by posts like this on any topic. It brings down the standard of discourse and perpetuates the simplistic thinking that is stifling race and other relations in America.

Late reply but there is no evidence that Hillary Clinton does not sympathize with police and the difficult job they do. In fact, I can say with 100% certainty that Hillary Clinton in her time as first lady, senator from NY, and up until now has done more tangible good for police in NY and all across the country than Donald Trump has done in his entire life.

Also, policing in America as an institution is racist. It's history is racist, it's policies are racist, it's institutional ideology is racist. Individual or even groups of police officers don't have to be racist for policing as an institution to be racist. Your staunch liberalism means nothing if you think the problems in policing have to do with racist individuals and not racist individuals. We're talking about systemic racism.

 

[bionic77]

Fascism is always good for the police.

Makes sense they are behind the Donald.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

These are some good resources for background:

A Brief History of Slavery and the Origins of American Policing
The History of Policing in the United States, Part 1
A Report from Occupied Territory
Blood On Their Hands: The Racist History of Modern Police Unions

And a couple good articles / interviews:

The KKK Has Infiltrated U.S. Police Departments For Decades
An interview with the Baltimore cop who’s revealing all the horrible things he saw on the job

This is why you're on of my faves