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The General Star Trek Thread of Earl Grey Tea, Baseball, and KHHHAAAANNNN

benjipwns

Banned
Piller wrote a book "FADE IN" about the writing process of Insurrection and the studio feedback/etc.

The film started out very differently but also with similar plot beats to how it ended up on his final draft, let alone on the screen.

Paramount put the kibosh on the book for years so it floated out there as a Word document but I guess it's now available for $95!?!?!?

Berman also originated an idea to have Picard kidnapped, and replaced with a surgically modified imposter. Piller was doubtful about Berman's idea, reasoning that the audience would not want to see an entire film in which Picard is not the lead star – the character would look like Patrick Stewart but would be different.
lol huh
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Because the Borg have something even stupider than the Temporal Prime Directive: The We-Only-Assimilate-Species-That-Advance-Us-Technologically Directive.
I mean, it's basically Cybernetic Eugenics. Not that different than the racial purity stuff we see now.

Amusingly, Michael Pillar initially wrote the Romulans into Insurrection.

Pillar was forced to change the Romulans into the Son'a (among many, many other changes he was forced to make, because apparently the writer is the least important part of a Hollywood movie).

And then for the very next movie (after a broken Pillar walked away from the franchise in disgust), someone decided it would be a great idea to go with Romulans in Nemesis.


Piller wrote a book "FADE IN" about the writing process of Insurrection and the studio feedback/etc.

The film started out very differently but also with similar plot beats to how it ended up on his final draft, let alone on the screen.

Paramount put the kibosh on the book for years so it floated out there as a Word document but I guess it's now available for $95!?!?!?

lol huh
I was just going to recommend this book.
It was free when I read it... but someone is charging for it? That's stupid when a pdf is just googalable.
In fact, first link - https://nightly.net/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=5159
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
First Contact is the Wrath of Khan of the TNG movies, only not as good. Well paced, fun, doesn't overstay its welcome. Only real flaw being the action movie feel but even then it works with the story they are trying to tell.

Insurrection is just a bad movie. Nemesis is even worse in some ways as it tries to be something good but just falls on its ass.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Nemesis was wasted on the wrong director. Though it still has a great opening and I don't have too many complaints about that space battle.

Plus like everything it needed Berman away from it.
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
I remember being so excited for Nemesis as the previews for it came out. The story sounded interesting, the script was apparently great, the filming was going well. The response from early screens was good. Then I saw it myself and went...eh. Then I saw it again on DVD when it came out and all the shine had come off and it ranked right around Insurrection in my mind.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Nemesis was wasted on the wrong director. Though it still has a great opening and I don't have too many complaints about that space battle.

Plus like everything it needed Berman away from it.
Blame Nemesis on Stewart and Spiner. At that point it was worse than Shatner's influence on the original movies.
 
I remember being so excited for Nemesis as the previews for it came out. The story sounded interesting, the script was apparently great, the filming was going well.

I always felt that with Nemesis they should have realized that Shinzon was basically maniacal space Spartacus. If they had the film woulda came together much better.
 

Sephzilla

Member
I'd put Nemesis in the "fine concept, poor execution" category. Nothing could have saved Insurrection.

I think this category applies to most of the mediocre/bad Trek movies honestly. I love the concept of Star Trek V but yeah, the execution was fumbled big time. Same with Star Trek Generations, that movie is actually pretty solid until they arrive on Veridian 3 and everything goes to shit and they try to awkwardly jam Kirk into it.
 
I think this category applies to most of the mediocre/bad Trek movies honestly. I love the concept of Star Trek V but yeah, the execution was fumbled big time. Same with Star Trek Generations, that movie is actually pretty solid until they arrive on Veridian 3 and everything goes to shit and they try to awkwardly jam Kirk into it.


I don't know, I think all 3 JJ movies have been terrible and I don't think much could have saved them short of complete overhauls.

I would probably agree with you on Generations, although I haven't seen it in many years.
 

Sephzilla

Member
I don't know, I think all 3 JJ movies have been terrible and I don't think much could have saved them short of complete overhauls.

I would probably agree with you on Generations, although I haven't seen it in many years.

Trek 09 and Beyond are two of the best Trek movies though :/

I actually don't mind Into Darkness at a very base conceptual level. But it gets a lot of points for being a stealth 9/11 Truther movie. The whole "Into Darkness is a shitty WoK" remake thing never held water for me because the movie has almost nothing in common with WoK
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Trek 09 and Beyond are two of the best Trek movies though :/

I actually don't mind Into Darkness at a very base conceptual level. But it gets a lot of points for being a stealth 9/11 Truther movie. The whole "Into Darkness is a shitty WoK" remake thing never held water for me because the movie has almost nothing in common with WoK

It doesn't, but they still try and graft WoK onto the film.

I was down with the film despite quibbles (the return of the dumb transporter, etc.) up until the point they had Harrison turn out to be Khan. Until that point it very much had a 70s intrigue/thriller element going on, which I found delightful. And then it just rehashed parts of WoK, but worse, and then it had the wonderful "the film should be over... but now here's a chase scene!" wacked-out climax. Which is a problem Beyond shared as well with the whole "but now we have to have Kirk-fu in the atmosphere thingy!"


Also, I should point out with the Fade In book that people tend to treat it as gospel, when ultimately it's a bitter writers' POV of what went down. You have to take it with the same big grains of salt that you take Shatner's "Making of Star Trek V" book. By which I mean to say, the studios and forces outside their control did play a role, but at the end of the day Pillar still wrote some egregious shit too.
 

Cheerilee

Member
Also, I should point out with the Fade In book that people tend to treat it as gospel, when ultimately it's a bitter writers' POV of what went down. You have to take it with the same big grains of salt that you take Shatner's "Making of Star Trek V" book. By which I mean to say, the studios and forces outside their control did play a role, but at the end of the day Pillar still wrote some egregious shit too.

I don't think "big grains of salt" are required, because so much of what he's saying is matter-of-fact. It's like, "Here's my first draft" (and the first draft of Insurrection is presented verbatim). And then "Here's how Patrick Stewart responded" (and a letter from Patrick Stewart is presented verbatim). Piller doesn't sugarcoat the fact that by the end he was just throwing words at the typewriter, trying to get a green light on his work so he could be rid of it, and that the final product (which he was initially hopeful would save the TNG movies from their downward spiral) was terrible. It's a look behind the curtain of Hollywood screenwriting.

If anything, what's missing is context, because other writers haven't been so open. But for example, I said that Insurrection was the only TNG movie with a chance to become good, because Piller recognized the problem and intended to fix it, while I don't think Ron Moore and Brannon Braga, or Brent fucking Spiner, had any such intentions.

Moore and Braga are on record saying that they wrote the award-winning finale "All Good Things" while they were writing "Generations", and writing All Good Things was easy, they banged it out in a month. Generations on the other hand, took an entire year and was difficult to write because they were serving too many masters (and in their opinion, it turned out like shit).

Piller reveals that the indispensable TNG actors flexed their veto muscles and refused to do the TNG movies (contracts signed on a movie-by-movie basis) unless they were given complete control over the script (with writing being a job for dime-a-dozen disposables). Patrick Stewart says (in his notes to Piller) that the problem with Generations was that it was too much like TNG, and that he had "great success" in steering Moore and Braga towards turning First Contact into action schlock, and he intended to do the same with Piller and Insurrection.

First Contact is the least awful TNG movie because Moore and Braga (having experienced Generations) closed their eyes and allowed the actors to write the movie. Insurrection is the worst TNG movie because Piller tried (and failed) to do something smarter with it. With Nemesis they just gave up completely and let Brent Spiner write it.
 

Sephzilla

Member
Insurrection is better than Generations and Nemesis. :p

nsr.gif


It's better than Nemesis for sure and I guess Insurrection doesn't have the Enterprise-D being destroyed by a TOS-movie era Bird of Prey complete with recycled footage
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Generations is terrible since none of it makes sense. You can fly around the sun to time travel, so just do that instead of trying to chase this wave around over hundreds of years. lol

(Or, why does Picard go back to the planet instead of just going back to before the movie started, saved his Brother and Nephew and then stopped the Enterprise-D from being destroyed?)
 

Sephzilla

Member
Generations is terrible since none of it makes sense. You can fly around the sun to time travel, so just do that instead of trying to chase this wave around over hundreds of years. lol

(Or, why does Picard go back to the planet instead of just going back to before the movie started, saved his Brother and Nephew and then stopped the Enterprise-D from being destroyed?)

Soran didn't want to time travel, he wanted to get into the Nexus because there he would be immortal because time has no meaning there. Picard not going further back and stopping Soran in a way that would have saved the Enterprise-D is definitely a big question mark though (in his defense he didn't know the Enterprise-D was down). As is the question of "why did nobody on the fucking bridge change shield frequencies after the Duras sisters shot at them?" Generations is also one of the rare movies where the villain does technically win, because Soran does get into the Nexus ultimately.

"Time is the fire in which we burn"
is a pretty fucking badass line though
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Soran didn't want to time travel, he wanted to get into the Nexus because there he would be immortal because time has no meaning there. Picard not going further back and stopping Soran in a way that would have saved the Enterprise-D is definitely a big question mark though (in his defense he didn't know the Enterprise-D was down). As is the question of "why did nobody on the fucking bridge change shield frequencies after the Duras sisters shot at them?" Generations is also one of the rare movies where the villain does technically win, because Soran does get into the Nexus ultimately.

"Time is the fire in which we burn"
is a pretty fucking badass line though
No I mean, Soran spends hundreds of years trying to chase the wave. But he can just go back in time to where he knows where the wave will be.

Time travel is stupid anyway - same with First Contact. Why wouldn't the Borg go back in time and let the old Borg assimilate them so they have 24th century technology in the 22nd century?
 
Time travel rears it's ugly head again,

I liked how they handled it in ST2009, Narada and Spock get sent back in time by accident, Starfleet/Federation deal with it, the end.

I think I'd rank the TNG movies:

FC
Generations
Nemesis
Insurrection

And they are all below the TOS movies with the exception of final frontier...I'd have to think about where I'd place that one.
 

Sephzilla

Member
First Contact is a top 5 Trek movie for me, but yeah the rest of the TNG movies are pretty bottom of the barrel. My top 5 is probably (in no particular order) Wrath of Khan, Undiscovered Country, First Contact, Star Trek 2009, Beyond

I think Star Trek 4 is grossly overrated
 
Honestly, while IV is very good, I still actually enjoy III more than that.

II
VI
III
IV
I
V

For TNG movies:

FC
Generations
Nemesis
Insurrection

For Reboot:

Star Trek
Beyond
Into Darkness
 

Sephzilla

Member
I don't like Star Trek 4 partially because the movie exists to make fun of how different and silly the Trek crew is from modern day people, which I think is a little disingenuous since the Trek crew is supposed to represent a better humanity. Plus the giant whale probe thing is a really stupid plot point due to the fact that no explanation is ever given for it and it just walks into the heart of Federation space and nobody saw it coming or saw a trail of ships/stations losing power along its path. I kind of feel that if the JJ movies had a giant unexplained thing like that in them, the fans would absolutely lose their shit.

The scene with Bones in the hospital is A+ comedy though
 
I don't like Star Trek 4 partially because the movie exists to make fun of how different and silly the Trek crew is from modern day people, which I think is a little disingenuous since the Trek crew is supposed to represent a better humanity. Plus the giant whale probe thing is a really stupid plot point due to the fact that no explanation is ever given for it and it just walks into the heart of Federation space and nobody saw it coming or saw a trail of ships/stations losing power along its path. I kind of feel that if the JJ movies had a giant unexplained thing like that in them, the fans would absolutely lose their shit.

The scene with Bones in the hospital is A+ comedy though

Seriously, the lady that got the meds from Bones going through the hospital all happy and giddy was amazing.
 
Well that just ruins first contact because without the Federation/Starfleet they'd have no reason to assimilate earth in the future.

That's why it was retconned in VOY when the Borg Queen said that objective of the Borg in FC were to ensure that First Contact happened, not to prevent it. The crew of the Ent-E just assumed the opposite.

The implication of this was that Zefram Cochrane was not himself competent to perform the first warp flight without the help of Picard's crew. And if we consider the conditions and circumstances surrounding the flight, it makes a lot of sense.

It would analogous to US scientists developing the Atom Bomb during WW2 on some remote Pacific Island constantly under Japanese attack.
 

Sephzilla

Member
Well, I appreciate that retcon's effort but it doesn't erase the fact that the Enterprise-E crew literally see assimilated Earth while they're preserved in that temporal wake. Which implies that the Borg's goal wasn't preserving First Contact
 

Morts

Member
That's why it was retconned in VOY when the Borg Queen said that objective of the Borg in FC were to ensure that First Contact happened, not to prevent it. The crew of the Ent-E just assumed the opposite.

The implication of this was that Zefram Cochrane was not himself competent to perform the first warp flight without the help of Picard's crew. And if we consider the conditions and circumstances surrounding the flight, it makes a lot of sense.

It would analogous to US scientists developing the Atom Bomb during WW2 on some remote Pacific Island constantly under Japanese attack.

Man I don't remember that Voyager retcon at all. Sounds dumb.
 

Walshicus

Member
That's why it was retconned in VOY when the Borg Queen said that objective of the Borg in FC were to ensure that First Contact happened, not to prevent it. The crew of the Ent-E just assumed the opposite.

The implication of this was that Zefram Cochrane was not himself competent to perform the first warp flight without the help of Picard's crew. And if we consider the conditions and circumstances surrounding the flight, it makes a lot of sense.

It would analogous to US scientists developing the Atom Bomb during WW2 on some remote Pacific Island constantly under Japanese attack.

What, I don't remember that at all. What episode?
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
That's why it was retconned in VOY when the Borg Queen said that objective of the Borg in FC were to ensure that First Contact happened, not to prevent it. The crew of the Ent-E just assumed the opposite.

The implication of this was that Zefram Cochrane was not himself competent to perform the first warp flight without the help of Picard's crew. And if we consider the conditions and circumstances surrounding the flight, it makes a lot of sense.

It would analogous to US scientists developing the Atom Bomb during WW2 on some remote Pacific Island constantly under Japanese attack.

What the hell? Then how did First Contact happen in the first place? :p
Or is this dumb temporal paradox Miles O'Brien I hate time travel crap. lol
 
So finally made it to season 3 of Voyager, I liked the two parter, it was interesting seeing them rough it out without any tech, and RIP to my boy Hogan, Neelix did him dirty ;_;


That's why it was retconned in VOY when the Borg Queen said that objective of the Borg in FC were to ensure that First Contact happened, not to prevent it. The crew of the Ent-E just assumed the opposite.

The implication of this was that Zefram Cochrane was not himself competent to perform the first warp flight without the help of Picard's crew. And if we consider the conditions and circumstances surrounding the flight, it makes a lot of sense.

It would analogous to US scientists developing the Atom Bomb during WW2 on some remote Pacific Island constantly under Japanese attack.

that's just a mess smh
 
Ferengi huh....


Janeway sure likes to come up with whatever BS excuse to meddle in afaires...if she had just left the Ferengi alone they'd be home by now.

This is why the very idea of Voyager was flawed from the get-go. They have to find convenient excuses for why they can't get back or the series would be over in 2 seconds.
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
Ferengi huh....


Janeway sure likes to come up with whatever BS excuse to meddle in affairs...if she had just left the Ferengi alone they'd be home by now.

If you've seen Next Gen recently you'd expect this episode to happen and it does. I've always found it pretty good.

Early on there's a lot of teases about getting home early, like every four or five weeks. They actually wrote a couple of them just in case they wanted to bring the show back to the regular Star Trek universe.

In season 3-5 they do a lot of "We didn't get home but we took ten years off of our trip!" to sort of reset the races they run into. This leads to some...problems though as they clearly didn't tell all of the writers about them and some races they should be 20 years away from show back up.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Hey now, I liked the Ferengi. Were a fun callback to TNG.

I think Enterprise was more egregious with wanting to have their old stuff, like the Ferengi or Borg.
 
This is why the very idea of Voyager was flawed from the get-go. They have to find convenient excuses for why they can't get back or the series would be over in 2 seconds.

Yeah stretching it out over 7 seasons seems like a terrible idea, I mean they are two years into it and they haven't made a dent into the trip,

And yesterday I saw the episode where they had to cross some forbidden sector of space and as they were going through it undetected she decides it's a good idea to drop out of warp and scan a ship that was adrift...like wtf are you doing?

But yeah to your point they kind of have to write them to make stupid decisions otherwise there would be no show.

Enterprise season 3 definitely did it better.

Hey now, I liked the Ferengi. Were a fun callback to TNG.

I think Enterprise was more egregious with wanting to have their old stuff, like the Ferengi or Borg.

I do too, Quark was one of my favorite characters in DS9 and this episode. I don't recall Ferengi in enterprise? But yeah the Borg and the final episode were dumb.

If you've seen Next Gen recently you'd expect this episode to happen and it does. I've always found it pretty good.

Early on there's a lot of teases about getting home early, like every four or five weeks. They actually wrote a couple of them just in case they wanted to bring the show back to the regular Star Trek universe.

In season 3-5 they do a lot of "We didn't get home but we took ten years off of our trip!" to sort of reset the races they run into. This leads to some...problems though as they clearly didn't tell all of the writers about them and some races they should be 20 years away from show back up.

I had no problem with the episode, I remembered the call back to TNG right away and I enjoy the episodes when they mention the lore from other shows, makes the universe feel more connected, (Like DS9 with TOS and tribbles) but I feel that they could have made another reason for the worm hole not to work and not Janeways meddling messing it up, it just makes the characters seem dumb.

I was also going to mention the idea that they are still encountering the Kazon and Talaxians but then I remembered that in 2 years they've barley even moved.
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
They explore waay too much for exploration sake early on.

They get the message around season 3 and start booking it home like crazy after that, taking weird ass shortcuts.
 

Cheerilee

Member
"Arridor?"
"What is it now?"
"We had seven years of pure profit."
(laughing) "We did, didn't we?"

- Kol and Arridor while being burned
 
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