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The General Star Trek Thread of Earl Grey Tea, Baseball, and KHHHAAAANNNN
- Thread starter The Librarian
- Start date
how so? She traded one year of DS9 for four years of Becker, that's pretty good.
They can cancel the show on short notice no matter what, long term contracts don't stopmthat. They could have given the entire cast new five year contracts after season six and still could have cancelled the show after season 7 releasing the cast and be done with it.
Stallion Dan
Member
I liked Ezri.
Jadzia got boring fast, and her huge amount of Klingon stuff was pointless when we had an actual Klingon for that.
Jadzia got boring fast, and her huge amount of Klingon stuff was pointless when we had an actual Klingon for that.
VenomousCoffee
Member
I am pretty certain than when Voyager was still on, but nearing the end, the show runners said in an interview that this was their plan.
I dunno, it'd have been really weird from a narrative standpoint to reach the obvious climax... and then have a denouement that lasted episodes. I feel like that's really a whole 'nother series. I did enjoy the brief little hints of what their life might be like in the alt timeline, though, and I think it was one of the stronger elements of the motivation of Future Janeway. Yeah, some people didn't make it, but overall it's not like everyone was in a bad place. But it's the personal guilt that wears her down.
Stallion Dan
Member
Voyager should have got home a few episodes before the end, but by doing so brought some threat with them that they deal with during the finale.
That way we could have seen how they reacted to being home for a small bit, even if busy with the threat.
At least thanks to Nemesis we know Starfleet promoted her so she would never Captain a ship again.
That way we could have seen how they reacted to being home for a small bit, even if busy with the threat.
At least thanks to Nemesis we know Starfleet promoted her so she would never Captain a ship again.
Gotten about a quarter through Season Five. Seven of Nine seems to have the most interesting episodes (especially when shared with The Doctor - One was absolutely frightening) but I think my favorite episodes so far has been Extreme Risk and Infinite Regress. B'Elanna was great in the former.
I wouldn't even pretend to know the details relating to contract penalties involved with cancelling a show early, but they've got to be more than "nothing" because why else would contracts be a thing?
Trek apparently offered plenty of multi-year contracts as the shows got started, but then they scaled it back to one year at a time as the shows started to wind down.
Farrell apparently said that one of the reasons she left DS9 and signed on with Becker was because DS9 was offering one year at a time contracts, and Becker offered her a multi-year contract. Now it's obvious that Becker could have bombed and been cancelled right out of the gate, while Farrell herself wasn't even convinced that this was the end of DS9, but... a multi-year contract has to mean something in order for it to be advantageous.
Yep. Voyager tends to blow all of its big moments. I think both Scorpion and Eclipse are pretty bad.
Year of Hell is such a good idea...and then they run through most of the good stuff in the first episode.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
I mean, starring as the romantic lead against Ted Danson, even in his post-Cheers grey-hair years, has to mean something if you care about trying to transition out of the Trek acting ghetto.
Himynameischris
Member
A ton of missed potential with this show, 4 seasons in and they still don't have any really great episodes like TNG/DS9 (and even TOS)
Going through Voyager just makes me miss TNG/DS9 more.
Here's my understanding:
The trade of a contract is that the show gets to guarantee actors don't leave before the end of the show in exchange for paying them more. An actor's best option would always be to be free for new, better paying, options. especially if they're on a popular show where these contracts are a thing. But there is risk. So they're taking a guaranteed good payday to avoid the risk of not landing another gig.
A popular show ending is a boon to the actors, not a problem. It doesn't make sense for the producers to compensate the actors for it.
Look at Friends and the ever-escalating price to keep the actors around. It was because their value on the open market kept going up, but the ridiculous salaries were worth it even so.
And if they know a show is winding down it doesn't make sense to pay a premium to lock the actors up for more years than they need.
Sometimes Voyager has a couple of great ideas...done better in the other series. Jetrel is an honestly great episode...if Duet never existed. Same with Nothing Human.
This is my short list of the best Voyager episodes
Someone to Watch Over Me
Relativity
Worst Case Scenario
One
Tinker Tenor Doctor Spy
The Voyager Conspiracy
Live Fast and Prosper
Night
Living Witness
Course:Oblivion
This is actually a lot of episodes yet I'd put none of them among the best of DS9/TNG episodes, nor the best TOS episodes. I'd put them all ahead of the best ENT episodes, another show that I think has trouble making anything really great.
This is my short list of the best Voyager episodes
Someone to Watch Over Me
Relativity
Worst Case Scenario
One
Tinker Tenor Doctor Spy
The Voyager Conspiracy
Live Fast and Prosper
Night
Living Witness
Course:Oblivion
This is actually a lot of episodes yet I'd put none of them among the best of DS9/TNG episodes, nor the best TOS episodes. I'd put them all ahead of the best ENT episodes, another show that I think has trouble making anything really great.
Himynameischris
Member
I've only seen Worst Case Scenario so I guess I still have some episodes to look forward too lol
I would off the top of my head add "The Void" and "Counterpoint" to that list. The latter is probably one of the strongest 'solo' episodes Janeway gets and has probably one of the best guest performances anyone got to do on the show as well.
Yep, both of those are great.
I still think my idea for the final season of Voyager would have been a bit more interesting than what we ended up getting. I would have ended season 6 with Voyager actually crossing into the Alpha Quadrant (maybe by way of some Borg Transwarp conduit similar to what the finale did). After the revelation that they've officially made it back into the Alpha Quadrant, everyone on the bridge is celebrating and happy - except for Tuvok whom is doing some calculations at his station. Then in the middle of everyone's jubilation, Tuvok interrupts them.
"Captain, while it is true that we have returned to the Alpha Quadrant we have entered on what appears to be the far side of Romulan Star Empire space."
The jubilation of the room fades away quickly as everyone realizes now they have to cross through one of the Federation's most powerful enemies in order to finally reach home, and you leave that as your cliffhanger for the final season. Then season 7 effectively acts like a slight soft-reboot of the series and Voyager is truly back to being isolated again with no allies, and can't communicate with the Federation anymore because the Romulans will almost certainly intercept their transmissions. Season 7's tension then comes from Voyager playing cat and mouse with an enemy that is quite familiar with the Federation, and everyone's on edge because they don't want to fail when they're basically on the doorstep of home. Meanwhile you could also get a political subplot in play with the Federation and Romulans where the Federation refuses to publicly admit that Voyager is in Romulan space and the Romulans refuse to publicly admit they know of Voyager's presence but are secretly trying to hunt the ship down.
Added bonus: Can get a couple of Sela cameos in.
"Captain, while it is true that we have returned to the Alpha Quadrant we have entered on what appears to be the far side of Romulan Star Empire space."
The jubilation of the room fades away quickly as everyone realizes now they have to cross through one of the Federation's most powerful enemies in order to finally reach home, and you leave that as your cliffhanger for the final season. Then season 7 effectively acts like a slight soft-reboot of the series and Voyager is truly back to being isolated again with no allies, and can't communicate with the Federation anymore because the Romulans will almost certainly intercept their transmissions. Season 7's tension then comes from Voyager playing cat and mouse with an enemy that is quite familiar with the Federation, and everyone's on edge because they don't want to fail when they're basically on the doorstep of home. Meanwhile you could also get a political subplot in play with the Federation and Romulans where the Federation refuses to publicly admit that Voyager is in Romulan space and the Romulans refuse to publicly admit they know of Voyager's presence but are secretly trying to hunt the ship down.
Added bonus: Can get a couple of Sela cameos in.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
At that point the Romulans would at least be allies of a sort, since it would have just been after the Dominion war. Unless they decided to make it a Nemesis prequel and show how the Remans decide to take a clone Picard and make him their king. lol
firehawk12
Subete no aware
I guess the Romulans did try to steal that Andy Dick ship. Although I can't remember if that was during or after the Dominion war.
I believe that was at the point where they were ostensibly "neutral" (Andy Dick definitely name-checks the Dominion.) Although really we have no idea if their action was sanctioned by the Romulan government. Could have been another Kruge-esque glory-hunting mission.
Stallion Dan
Member
Some people seem to think Voyager starts with S3 of DS9, putting Message in a Bottle during S7 of DS9.
Which doesn't work.
I always saw the Romulans as being on a trajectory towards peace with the Federation.
Right from the start in TOS the Romulans were xenophobic nationalists, but after tangling with Kirk, the Romulan Captain acknowledges that (seemingly beyond mere respect for his successful adversary) him and Kirk were cut from the same cloth, and were it not for their political circumstances, they could've been close friends.
Spock made semi-successful efforts to bridge the gap that had formed between Romulus and Vulcan.
Picard engaged with the Romulans on a number of occasions, and Picard always acted in a stand-up way, and he seemed to be building trust and goodwill. Even when there were screwups, like Riker's former Captain's research into the phased cloak, Picard owned up to these sorts of mistakes and apologized, and I think this sort of thing went a long way towards sowing the seeds of trust within the Romulans, showing them genuine honesty and convincing the xenophobic Romulans that Federation Captains like Picard could be trusted.
So far we're just dealing with minorities, one Captain who becomes cool on his deathbed when nobody but Kirk is there to listen to him, a bunch of Romulan-Vulcan weeaboos hiding in the shadows, some TNG-era Captains with a grudging, growing respect for Picard...
Sisko provides the next big example here, with the Romulans being willing to loan Sisko a cloaking device for the Defiant. This is a political olive branch, being offered with political approval.
And then Sisko plays dirty and he tricks the Romulans into joining the Federation in their war with the Dominion (and Sisko got away with it). They aren't merging their crews or anything absurd like that, but Romulan and Federation ships are out there in the same sea, fighting a common foe, and occasionally pulling each other's asses out of the fire. That has to soften how a lot of individual Romulans feel about the Federation.
After the war, the Romulans can retreat back to their borders and rattle their sabres at the Federation for them to stay on their side of the fence, but it seems that politically and in the trenches, it's inevitable that the Romulans position on the Federation would be significantly softened.
IIRC, there was even a Voyager episode that dealt with Voyager making contact with a pre-TNG Romulan vessel, and while the Romulan Captain was initially distrustful, he agreed without too much trouble to assist the Voyager crew on humanitarian grounds. It just seems like it has always been inevitable that the tensions between the Federation and Romulans were going to fizzle out.
Incidentally, I think that a season built around Voyager treading on Romulan turf would be all the better if the Romulan response to this incursion was "mixed".
It does.
Message in a bottle is a season 4 episode, that puts it into season 6 of DS9.
Himynameischris
Member
Just watched message in a bottle, I liked it
It's also worth considering Romulus got wiped even in the Prime Timeline. I can see the Romulans becoming chummier with the Federation in a move akin to the glasnost of The Undiscovered Country, because being friends with the Federation is way better than being their enemy and having had the heart cut out of your empire. Likewise I could even see reunification becoming a real possibility even without Spock there.
SolidSnakeUS
Member
Andy Dick wasn't entirely insufferable. But outside of that, the episode was fun and definitely offered something fresh and good that the show needed.
Himynameischris
Member
Yeah it was a solid episode, one of the few that I genuinely didn't have any issue with and I liked the follow up one with the letters sent to the crew. It actually feels like they've progressed since they got stranded over there.
Really it's weird that Star Trek's writers (and sci-fi TV in general) doesn't do even the barest necessity of explaining why you can't just tech away some problems. "Caretaker" is a weird example, in that it has one of those "guidance system is off.... I'll have to pilot it manually" moments, but of course it's not a death sentence because Chakotay remembered there is a transporter so he doesn't have to do some honorable death bull. But then no one even discusses an alternate away to use the Array and destroy it when they're gone (remote explosives?) Even if the answer is just "we have no time to rig a device and we can't be sure it'll go off when we're gone", that would have been better than what we got.
I'm fascinated with the unification stuff for Romulans. One of the event chains I keep meaning to write for the New Horizons mod for Stellaris covers the area.
What would the unified state be called? If it was Romulan led I'd say "S'harien Union" would work. If Vulcan led, "Seleyan Confederation".
Himynameischris
Member
They sure do love fighting nazis in star trek,
that was a solid two parter at least, Neelix and the Doctor with the Klingons was hilarious
that was a solid two parter at least, Neelix and the Doctor with the Klingons was hilarious
firehawk12
Subete no aware
I can't really remember the episode, but I seem to remember that they were just out numbered, so it was either destroy the array or give it to the Kazon.
Himynameischris
Member
There really wasn't another Starfleet crew member qualified to take over for kes other than tom?
He had a couple of biochemistry courses in the academy.
Yeah, I dunno either, other than conservation of characters and the fact that he and the Doc probably had one of the best repartees until Seven came along.
StopMakingSense
Member
Being main cast on a major network TV series is a waaaaaaay better deal than Trek.
Himynameischris
Member
The writers for Voyager had no idea what they were doing.
*We can't get near that planet it's so deadly even our massive ship can't be near it*
*Let's try transporting what we need (Doesn't work because of how deadly everything is)*
*Let's send a little shuttle and evo suits*
*Screw it lets land Voyager on the planet*
I think if they spent less time explaining stuff with technobabble and just focused on the characters/stories it would have done wonders for the show.
I did enjoy Living Witness though and again it involved the Doctor and a simple story that wasn't overly explained.
Seven would have been a more logical choice, was Voyager really that low budget that they couldn't keep Kes in a reduced role?
*We can't get near that planet it's so deadly even our massive ship can't be near it*
*Let's try transporting what we need (Doesn't work because of how deadly everything is)*
*Let's send a little shuttle and evo suits*
*Screw it lets land Voyager on the planet*
I think if they spent less time explaining stuff with technobabble and just focused on the characters/stories it would have done wonders for the show.
I did enjoy Living Witness though and again it involved the Doctor and a simple story that wasn't overly explained.
Seven would have been a more logical choice, was Voyager really that low budget that they couldn't keep Kes in a reduced role?
They basically went "Two blonde non crew members is one blond too many" and ditched her.
It works out pretty well for them actually. Kes has some decent episodes while Seven has pretty much most of the best ones, gets all the best lines, gets most of the best b stories.
It works out pretty well for them actually. Kes has some decent episodes while Seven has pretty much most of the best ones, gets all the best lines, gets most of the best b stories.
Himynameischris
Member
Yeah I like Seven so far (she's the Data/Spock of the show, Tuvok is just kinda there...) and I know her and Janeway had issues on set but on screen it doesn't really come off like that, they have good scenes together.
One fun thing about Voyager is that while certain writers weren't the best about keeping track of shuttle craft or photon torpedeos or the like whomever was responsible for keeping track of crew compliment did a fantastic job. That number goes down and stays down with only a few notable exceptions!
Himynameischris
Member
Probably because they started killing off characters more frequently lol
I feel like there was some gossipy reason they got rid of the actress. Drugs or something. But yeah, I thought Kes was becoming an interesting character with her telekinesis and Tuvok being her mentor.
I thought it was down to scrapping either Kim or Kes and Garret Wang appeared on some Hollywood hot list.
That's what Garret Wang says, at least. At least from the in universe perspective of the show you can see where they'd see Kes or Kim as the most expendable.
HappenstanceUK
Member
I never really minded Kes being written out. It felt like the writers were struggling to come up with stories for her by the end anyway.
I'm kind of in the mood for a Voyager rewatch now though. Might have to start that soon.
I'm kind of in the mood for a Voyager rewatch now though. Might have to start that soon.
Himynameischris
Member
Harrys role is weird...he's an ensign that attends senior staff meetings, handles coms, some engineering/science officer roles but his job title is Ops Officer.
If I had to pick between the two I guess I'd stick with Kim, he's helped saved Voyager countless times already.
If I had to pick between the two I guess I'd stick with Kim, he's helped saved Voyager countless times already.
HappenstanceUK
Member
It was definitely weird that Kim never got a promotion throughout the series. I never particularly disliked him during the run, in fact I quite liked his friendship with Paris (although having watched DS9 for the first time after Voyager it became obvious they were trying to recreate the magic that was O'Brian & Bashir).
The producers wanted to spice up the show and reinvigorate it by adding a sexy new cast member (Jeri Ryan).
I'm sure that Robert Beltran would gladly point out that they didn't need to add a new cast member, they could've reinvigorated the show by actually making a better show, or at least they could stop actively sabotaging the cast's constant-but-futile efforts to try and make the show better.
The producers decided to fire one older actor in order to bring one newer actor in, because that's easier from a budgeting standpoint, and because the producers thought they had created a perfect balance in the number of cast members that they had, and of course producers decisions are always right, so when things go wrong the fault must lie somewhere else.
The producers were making a short list of which actors they felt would be best to fire. I don't think it's entirely clear that Garrett Wang and Jennifer Lien were the only two names on the list, nor was Garrett necessarily the frontrunner for being fired. Then Garrett got some well-timed positive magazine coverage, which the producers felt was enough to strike his name from the short list. Jennifer Lien was the one who eventually got the axe.