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[Gordon Shumway]

Race-baiting..

 

[Big Baybee]

This is a thread about the grand jury voting or not voting on the Tamir Rice case.

This isn't the thread about protesters blocking traffic... just stop the baiting bullshit already. Do you want to discuss the topic at hand or do you want to talk about something from another thread?

This passive-aggressive race-baiting stuff is irritating, and I'd rather we remain on topic. You are obviously mad about all this and trying to take it out on me.

This topic is directly related to why folks were blocking traffic in the first place.

 

[Herbs]

Going in circles with this BLM shit..every thread.

They really get to some people. Seems like they are working.

 

[Malyse]

This is a thread about the grand jury voting or not voting on the Tamir Rice case.

This isn't the thread about protesters blocking traffic... just stop the baiting bullshit already. Do you want to discuss the topic at hand or do you want to talk about something from another thread?

This passive-aggressive race-baiting stuff is irritating, and I'd rather we remain on topic. You are obviously mad about all this and trying to take it out on me.

That's two times.

Do you plan on answering the question or will you just continue living up to your tag?

😊

 

[NervousXtian]

This topic is directly related to why folks were blocking traffic in the first place.

Indirectly yes, but the we aren't discussing the article at all anymore. The article has multiple updates since it was posted. We aren't discussing that either.

 

[Enzom21]

Race-baiting..

Whistlin like a motha fucka.

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

Indirectly yes, but the we aren't discussing the article at all anymore. The article has multiple updates since it was posted. We aren't discussing that either.

 

[ANDS]

After watching Making a Murderer. The American legal system seems like a corrupt clusterfuck of epic proportions.

Its like roll a dice. On a 4+ you are found innocent. -1 if you are poor, -2 if you are black.

Unsurprising if that's your only source of "the American legal system." I wonder what you must think of our Space Program after watching Armageddon.

 

[KingV]

http://www.joincampaignzero.org/

Bye...

I've never seen that before. Thanks.

 

[Verelios]

This is a thread about the grand jury voting or not voting on the Tamir Rice case.

This isn't the thread about protesters blocking traffic... just stop the baiting bullshit already. Do you want to discuss the topic at hand or do you want to talk about something from another thread?

This passive-aggressive race-baiting stuff is irritating, and I'd rather we remain on topic. You are obviously mad about all this and trying to take it out on me.

You can't arbitrarily separate the two when they stem from the same cause, regardless if anyone wants to admit it.

 

[akira28]

While I am as outraged at the Tamir Rice case as you.... there's a reason people contrast BLM with MLK in a partially negative light.

Yes, MLK obviously protested and was arrested for it, but he also spent a fair amount of time talking about righteous anger and loving his enemies. He agonized about losing his temper in tense situations, fearing that it hurt his cause and ultimate goals. He never said he wasnt angry, but he tried to channel that anger in a productive way.

BLM (or at least the part that gets play in the media) seems to have all of the protesting with a nice healthy dose of anti-white resentment. It's like they learned half of the lesson, but forgot about the other just as important part.

When white people say 'Hey BLM isn't really effective at garnering sympathy from me', they are not necessarily saying that they don't agree with BLM's goals, just that maybe standing up in front of 3,000 white people and calling them all racists is not the most effective way of garnering sympathy for your movement.


Also, BLM at some point has to propose actual reforms it would like to see implemented.

(Fyi, this isn't directed at you personally, just the general sentiment that BLM is just like MLK)

bullshit.

when every single fence sitting moderate needing to be made to feel comfortable must be convinced before they'll agree to changes that they're ok with, it makes affecting change take even longer, which is why we're still talking about this 60 years after it had supposedly finally been addressed by good and competent people.

Especially when those "good" people consistently treat this issue like an intellectual discussion of hypotheticals while people's lives hang in the balance. Oh lets play devils advocate until we encounter a position so despicable that we can't find it in ourselves to keep up the argumentation. Its not like we need solutions. we need to occupy our time.

 

[commedieu]

Is that you stacey?

Edit; im out as soon as I can afford to leave. Its just blatant at this point. There is no w in sight either. The systems been broken since the inception of the nation. Every day is a reminder of that.

Mlk did nothing but get people to change set dressings. Shits still here.

 

[Slayven]

This is a thread about the grand jury voting or not voting on the Tamir Rice case.

This isn't the thread about protesters blocking traffic... just stop the baiting bullshit already. Do you want to discuss the topic at hand or do you want to talk about something from another thread?

This passive-aggressive race-baiting stuff is irritating, and I'd rather we remain on topic. You are obviously mad about all this and trying to take it out on me.

Know what is irritating? The Institutionalized sanction of murder.

That really grind my gears

 

[commedieu]

Know what is irritating? The Institutionalized sanction of murder.

That really grind my gears

Bee fully in bonnet.


Fuckers act like its protesting over higher wages or some shit they need to fucking be convinced is a bad deal. . Its executions. And people have to be sold the right way, by the right negro, that its a problem.

So done.

 

[Kinyou]

You can't arbitrarily separate the two when they stem from the same cause, regardless if anyone wants to admit it.

The question does seem a bit out of the left field considering his initial post

 

[Sulik2]

Respectability politics.

MLK wore suits, spoke eloquently, abstained from violence, and still got shot in the face. What's the lesson there?

That non-violent protests change nothing. When major race riots happened in multiple US cities at the same time legislation was passed. Its been proven over and over in history, if a repressed population wants something to change. It requires violence.

 

[Mr. X]

When did history make MLK so soft?

 

[Enzom21]

When did history make MLK so soft?

When his name started being used to silence uppity negroes.

 

[Simply Sarah]

That non-violent protests change nothing. When major race riots happened in multiple US cities at the same time legislation was passed. Its been proven over and over in history, if a repressed population wants something to change. It requires violence.

I think you're taking the wrong lesson here. Non-violent protest can change things, it's just that the powers that be have done their best job of sanitizing the real history of radical non-violent protest so that many people think it was just some basic marching and holding signs nicely. Non-violent doesn't mean not raising hell.

 

[TheOMan]

This is a thread about the grand jury voting or not voting on the Tamir Rice case.

This isn't the thread about protesters blocking traffic... just stop the baiting bullshit already. Do you want to discuss the topic at hand or do you want to talk about something from another thread?

This passive-aggressive race-baiting stuff is irritating, and I'd rather we remain on topic. You are obviously mad about all this and trying to take it out on me.

What are you doing?

 

[KingV]

Respectability politics.

MLK wore suits, spoke eloquently, abstained from violence, and still got shot in the face. What's the lesson there?

He also actually got shit done.

Now there is a final reason I think that Jesus says, "Love your enemies." It is this: that love has within it a redemptive power. And there is a power there that eventually transforms individuals. Just keep being friendly to that person. Just keep loving them, and they can’t stand it too long. Oh, they react in many ways in the beginning. They react with guilt feelings, and sometimes they’ll hate you a little more at that transition period, but just keep loving them. And by the power of your love they will break down under the load. That’s love, you see. It is redemptive, and this is why Jesus says love. There’s something about love that builds up and is creative. There is something about hate that tears down and is destructive. So love your enemies. (from "Loving Your Enemies")

You could educate, change minds, and build allies. Show people who are sitting on the sidelines why that's the wrong answer, and help them understand how to participate or support your cause or you could just deprecate them.

It's to BLM's advantage to both understand the white semi-ally (or even non-ally) perspective as well as trying to get those people to understand their perspective and get them off the sidelines.

At some point a coalition of support will have to be built to actually get any new laws passed.

 

[Mr. X]

MLK has to be the or top 3 most disruptive people in US history, hands down.

 

[KingV]

bullshit.

when every single fence sitting moderate needing to be made to feel comfortable must be convinced before they'll agree to changes that they're ok with, it makes affecting change take even longer, which is why we're still talking about this 60 years after it had supposedly finally been addressed by good and competent people.

Especially when those "good" people consistently treat this issue like an intellectual discussion of hypotheticals while people's lives hang in the balance. Oh lets play devils advocate until we encounter a position so despicable that we can't find it in ourselves to keep up the argumentation. Its not like we need solutions. we need to occupy our time.

So, what should I be doing about it? A position of 'white liberals and Bernie Sanders are the enemy too' isn't exactly leaving a lot of room for white participation of any political stripe. The movement is so fractured I'm not even sure that IS the primary message or is a widely held belief, but it is at least one of the messages.

Personally I think the most obvious thing for me to do is to vote Bernie and work to get him elected.

But, what else?

Edit: also worth mentioning that it's really not about 'agreeing to the changes'. I already agree to the changes. Police culture is out of control in the US. I agree.

 

[Mr. X]

So, what should I be doing about it? A position of 'white liberals and Bernie Sanders are the enemy too' isn't exactly leaving a lot of room for white participation of any political stripe. The movement is so fractured I'm not even sure that IS the primary message or is a widely held belief, but it is at least one of the messages.

Personally I think the most obvious thing for me to do is to vote Bernie and work to get him elected.

But, what else?

Using white privilege to get the issue heard is a start. They won't listen to the black voices, maybe people they consider their own can get them to listen and show some empathy.

 

[Malyse]

The question does seem a bit out of the left field considering his initial post

Well, his initial post was essentially "nothing to see here, move along". As he was immediately so dismissive of this, I was curious to know what he thought about the protesters that blocked the road (much in the same vein as Dr. King, but let's not talk about that)

 

[BitStyle]

I would say I'm surprised...but I'm not in the slightest.

 

[The Kree]

He also actually got shit done.




You could educate, change minds, and build allies. Show people who are sitting on the sidelines why that's the wrong answer, and help them understand how to participate or support your cause or you could just deprecate them.

It's to BLM's advantage to both understand the white semi-ally (or even non-ally) perspective as well as trying to get those people to understand their perspective and get them off the sidelines.

At some point a coalition of support will have to be built to actually get any new laws passed.

You think the DA who declined to indict isn't educated? What is a black person going to teach him that he doesn't already know? How to love? LMAO

I don't really understand why you think new laws are needed and that BLM needs to outline what they need to be. Harassment is already illegal. Murder is already illegal. Abuse is already illegal. We got cameras everywhere and cops still regularly get away with horrible shit on video.

You must be asking BLM to prescribe policies that force people to have feelings they don't want to have so that they can enforce laws in situations where they don't want to enforce them. This is not possible.

But aside from all that, it's not the oppressed people's responsibility to reach out and educate and sway their oppressors and the apathetic fence sitters. It's their oppressors responsibility to stop oppressing. Black people fighting back is not their responsibility, it's an inevitability, and you don't get to tell oppressed people how to fight back. They'll decide and either they'll win or lose. The black population centers in this country have the strictest gun laws and the weakest educational infrastructure, but you wanna place the impetus on them to be less disruptive and go out and be educators. You sound stupid right now.

 

[JoseLopez]

As tragic as this is, make sure you people protest the correct way and stop inconveniencing others you'll never get people to get behind your cause if you don't. Think about MLK and what he would do, he'd be ashamed of the protesting. It also doesn't help that BET is still a thing. Stop complaining about the Oscars and do your own thing if you don't like it.

are you real

 

[KingV]

Using white privilege to get the issue heard is a start. They won't listen to the black voices, maybe people they consider their own can get them to listen and show some empathy.

OK, I can understand that and would be happy to help educate my peers (really I already do that, but can probably do it better)

Do you think there's anything worth reading/watching that makes the case particularly well?

I kind of think that the news should be enough, but I'm sure that there is something more eloquent available.

 

[A Link to the Past]

well

this is fucked eh

are you real

no

 

[Enzom21]

So, what should I be doing about it? A position of 'white liberals and Bernie Sanders are the enemy too' isn't exactly leaving a lot of room for white participation of any political stripe. The movement is so fractured I'm not even sure that IS the primary message or is a widely held belief, but it is at least one of the messages.

Personally I think the most obvious thing for me to do is to vote Bernie and work to get him elected.

But, what else?

Edit: also worth mentioning that it's really not about 'agreeing to the changes'. I already agree to the changes. Police culture is out of control in the US. I agree.

Who the fuck mentioned Bernie Sanders? Ah... now I see why you have such a problem with BLM, they were mean to your hero.

 

[Malyse]

While I am as outraged at the Tamir Rice case as you, there's a reason people contrast BLM with MLK in a partially negative light.

Yes, MLK obviously protested and was arrested for it, but he also spent a fair amount of time talking about righteous anger and loving his enemies. He agonized about losing his temper in tense situations, fearing that it hurt his cause and ultimate goals. He never said he wasnt angry, but he tried to channel that anger in a productive way.

BLM (or at least the part that gets play in the media) seems to have all of the protesting with a nice healthy dose of anti-white resentment. It's like they learned half of the lesson, but forgot about the other just as important part.

When white people say 'Hey BLM isn't really effective at garnering sympathy from me', they are not necessarily saying that they don't agree with BLM's goals, just that maybe standing up in front of 3,000 white people and calling them all racists is not the most effective way of garnering sympathy for your movement.


Also, BLM at some point has to propose actual reforms it would like to see implemented.

(Fyi, this isn't directed at you personally, just the general sentiment that BLM is just like MLK)

So, what should I be doing about it? A position of 'white liberals and Bernie Sanders are the enemy too' isn't exactly leaving a lot of room for white participation of any political stripe. The movement is so fractured I'm not even sure that IS the primary message or is a widely held belief, but it is at least one of the messages.

Personally I think the most obvious thing for me to do is to vote Bernie and work to get him elected.

But, what else?

Edit: also worth mentioning that it's really not about 'agreeing to the changes'. I already agree to the changes. Police culture is out of control in the US. I agree.

So far you've dragged BLM, MLK, and Bernie Sanders into this thread, none of which were being talked about. Is your endgame derailment or is it only a stop on along the ride to some greater goal?

 

[Vice]

He also actually got shit done.




You could educate, change minds, and build allies. Show people who are sitting on the sidelines why that's the wrong answer, and help them understand how to participate or support your cause or you could just deprecate them.

It's to BLM's advantage to both understand the white semi-ally (or even non-ally) perspective as well as trying to get those people to understand their perspective and get them off the sidelines.

At some point a coalition of support will have to be built to actually get any new laws passed.

The reason MLK got things done is complex. He provided an alternative to far more violent groups out at the same time whiel also being willing to ruin the lives of those who were not protesting with him.

Ideas like getting your ass kicked and arrested onTV were very calculated movements meant to sway people. This combined wieth the fact that alternative rights movements were much more militant and scary compared to him made King the safe choice. There was a lot more than marching or gaining allies. Henspent a lot of time scaring the shit out of people - mostly by making them look like mosnyers who beat the eldey and children over sitting at a cohnter or wanting to vote.

To even get people to come over to his side he had to look death in the eye everyday and endanger the lives and livelihood of others. And all that got was mostly some sympathy support that has dried up since then.

 

[NervousXtian]

Well, his initial post was essentially "nothing to see here, move along". As he was immediately so dismissive of this, I was curious to know what he thought about the protesters that blocked the road (much in the same vein as Dr. King, but let's not talk about that)

Then come out me that way, not the way you did. Respect me as a forum member and have a discussion.

If you want to know why I even posted that it's because I read the OP and title, read the link, saw it was updated and that new information came out. A lot of people don't actually read the links of OP's and they wouldn't know that a vote more than likely did take place and that documents were provided that the jury foreman signed off on not pressing charges.

Those last 2 bits are important information that should now be part of the OP.

That's not going to mean people still won't be outraged that the officer wasn't charged, it just means that the story that was initially was reported in the OP wasn't actually what took place at the grand jury.

Is it not important to point out the fact there were updates?

 

[A Link to the Past]

He also actually got shit done.




You could educate, change minds, and build allies. Show people who are sitting on the sidelines why that's the wrong answer, and help them understand how to participate or support your cause or you could just deprecate them.

It's to BLM's advantage to both understand the white semi-ally (or even non-ally) perspective as well as trying to get those people to understand their perspective and get them off the sidelines.

At some point a coalition of support will have to be built to actually get any new laws passed.

Hey KingV, instead of selectively choosing certain quotes by him, could you acknowledge the quote that criticizes your stance of "I agree with your cause, just not your methods"?

Also ask yourself why you are in a thread about a black child who was murdered by a police officer and virtually every word you've said has been to complain about black people.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Who the fuck mentioned Bernie Sanders? Ah... now I see why you have such a problem with BLM, they were mean to your hero.

Every. Damn. Time.

 

[Malyse]

Then come out me that way, not the way you did. Respect me as a forum member and have a discussion.

If you want to know why I even posted that it's because I read the OP and title, read the link, saw it was updated and that new information came out. A lot of people don't actually read the links of OP's and they wouldn't know that a vote more than likely did take place and that documents were provided that the jury foreman signed off on not pressing charges.

Those last 2 bits are important information that should now be part of the OP.

That's not going to mean people still won't be outraged that the officer wasn't charged, it just means that the story that was initially was reported in the OP wasn't actually what took place at the grand jury.

Is it not important to point out the fact there were updates?

You certainly have a lot of faith in the system. And it's not like we were unaware of the updates; my second reply in this thread was in response to the most recent one. You did such a good job reading the OP that you didn't read the thread.

Spoiler

 

[The Kree]

A twelve year-old boy gets murdered by a cop, his family sees no justice, and we gotta have a discussion about white fragility.

 

[Tesseract]

pretty fucked up, especially that third update

 

[Gordon Shumway]

pretty fucked up, especially that third update

Pretty convenient, no? Nah..

 

[KingV]

You think the DA who declined to indict isn't educated? What is a black person going to teach him that he doesn't already know? How to love? LMAO

I don't really understand why you think new laws are needed and that BLM needs to outline what they need to be. Harassment is already illegal. Murder is already illegal. Abuse is already illegal. We got cameras everywhere and cops still regularly get away with horrible shit on video.

You must be asking BLM to prescribe policies that force people to have feelings they don't want to have so that they can enforce laws in situations where they don't want to enforce them. This is not possible.

But aside from all that, it's not the oppressed people's responsibility to reach out and educate and sway their oppressors and the apathetic fence sitters. It's their oppressors responsibility to stop oppressing. Black people fighting back is not their responsibility, it's an inevitability, and you don't get to tell oppressed people how to fight back. They'll decide and either they'll win or lose. The black population centers in this country have the strictest gun laws and the weakest educational infrastructure, but you wanna place the impetus on them to be less disruptive and go out and be educators. You sound stupid right now.

I don't know I'm pretty sure that there might be someone somewhere that has some ideas on how to improve things. Maybe that's ending mandatory minimums and sentencing guidelines, ending broken windows policing, or appointing a special prosecutor for police misconduct.

Are you really suggesting that the best way to go about this is to just be mad and hope society at large figures out all of the details for you? You really think that there is nobody, white, black, or whatever out there that has any good ideas on how to improve the situation? No way to clean up dirty cops, improve community policing, or find ways to make these charges stick? That's oddly defeatist. If it's hopeless, then what's the end game? Armed revolt? I hope the answer is no, but...

Black people can fight back however they want, but I will be frank, just being mad isn't going to change a thing.

Don't educate. don't do anything but be mad, but don't be surprised when nothing changes either, because people don't care about stuff they don't really understand

I agree with you that people should not need to be convinced not to sit on the fence, but they do. Either white people are actively evil, or they don't understand enough to care.

I think white people, in general, understand that black people are mad, but the next question is "Why are you mad?" And the next question after that is "What do you want to be done about it?"

And if you don't have good answers to those questions, people move on.

I know those answers exist, because people have shared them, but they are not widely known by white people.

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

A twelve year-old boy gets murdered by a cop, his family sees no justice, and we gotta have a discussion about white fragility.

We need to focus on the real victims.

Spoiler

Hypothetically.

 

[Bronx-Man]

Raise your hand if any part of this story surprised you whatsoever.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

We need to focus on the real victims.

Spoiler

Hypothetically.

😢

 

[NervousXtian]

You certainly have a lot of faith in the system. And it's not like we were unaware of the updates; my second reply in this thread was in response to the most recent one. You did such a good job reading the OP that you didn't read the thread.

Spoiler

I had multiple tabs opened, I saw your gif you posted after I had written my reply, actually most of the stuff written about the update I read after I replied.. I didn't refresh... but most of the thread before that was disgust over the system.

I don't have ultimate faith in the system... and grand jury's in police shooting cases are a joke anyways.. we knew that going in. If it wasn't for public outrage to begin with they'd never even take place, but the laws as written typically would make getting an actual conviction in many of these cases near impossible. Those laws needed to be looked out, but even more so police procedures need to be completely reworked towards deescalation.

I said as much above, the cop I don't feel was criminally liable for the death of Tamir Rice as the law is written, but I do feel he is civilly liable for that death as his unsafe and brazen actions led to the death.

Not that I feel a lot of empathy for the prosecutors in these cases, but they are in a lose-lose situation.. these cases typically would never have been brought to a grand jury because they typically aren't winnable cases, but if they don't they look bad, if they don't get the grand jury okay to trial they look bad, and if they eventually lose or end up pleading down during or before trial they look bad. The prosecutors are stuck arguing up against the laws in place.

We want to place blame in these things, say the system is broken... no the laws are broken and the police procedures are broken.

 

[KingV]

So far you've dragged BLM, MLK, and Bernie Sanders into this thread, none of which were being talked about. Is your endgame derailment or is it only a stop on along the ride to some greater goal?

Sorry I apologize for derailing the thread.

Not my intention, so I'll leave.

 

[Mael]

Are we talking about the time some cops went and drive-by-shooted a kid who was playing with a fake gun or I am mixing my cop brutality stories?

 

[Malyse]

Are we talking about the time some cops went and drive-by-shooted a kid who was playing with a fake gun or I am mixing my cop brutality stories?

It was more of a Stop and Pop than a drive-by, but yeah, you prolly are thinking of the right one.

 

[Mael]

It was more of a Stop and Pop than a drive-by, but yeah, you prolly are thinking of the right one.

And when we have protests about how it's not cool, because you know it was a kid getting shot by a cop for no reason after all, the real problem is that the protest is making people late at work?
Did I just stumble in some alternate dimension where it's ok to kill people or something?

 

[A Link to the Past]

I don't know I'm pretty sure that there might be someone somewhere that has some ideas on how to improve things. Maybe that's ending mandatory minimums and sentencing guidelines, ending broken windows policing, or appointing a special prosecutor for police misconduct.

Are you really suggesting that the best way to go about this is to just be mad and hope society at large figures out all of the details for you? You really think that there is nobody, white, black, or whatever out there that has any good ideas on how to improve the situation? No way to clean up dirty cops, improve community policing, or find ways to make these charges stick? That's oddly defeatist. If it's hopeless, then what's the end game? Armed revolt? I hope the answer is no, but...

Black people can fight back however they want, but I will be frank, just being mad isn't going to change a thing.

Don't educate. don't do anything but be mad, but don't be surprised when nothing changes either, because people don't care about stuff they don't really understand

I agree with you that people should not need to be convinced not to sit on the fence, but they do. Either white people are actively evil, or they don't understand enough to care.

I think white people, in general, understand that black people are mad, but the next question is "Why are you mad?" And the next question after that is "What do you want to be done about it?"

And if you don't have good answers to those questions, people move on.

I know those answers exist, because people have shared them, but they are not widely known by white people.

Ctrl + F "Tamir"

Huh

Thanks for derailing a thread about a murdered black child into a thread about complaining that BLM was mean to Bernie Sanders