bloodydrake
Cool Smoke Luke
that looks awesome! Cant wait to try this
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The High-end VR Discussion Thread (HTC Vive, Oculus Rift, Playstation VR)
- Thread starter Cartman86
- Start date
that looks awesome! Cant wait to try this
RIPmotion: VR running in place locomotion
Anyone seen this? This seems really better compared to teleportation movement!
Anyone seen this? This seems really better compared to teleportation movement!
6 posts up
Seems like a cool idea, wonder if it can really trick the brain enough though. And if it does trick the brain enough, the next issue might be you actually starting to run and hitting a wall, if you go too fast, not sure how fast and early Chaperone warns you though.Does it solve any of the motion sickness issues though? Because you are still not really moving so I would assume this solves nothing.
Yeah might as well use the trackpad. At best this doesn't create as huge a disconnect from standing while moving to walking around, but it won't help against sickness much.
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
I mean, have you tried it?
bloodydrake
Cool Smoke Luke
what would it hurt to try it before dismissing it? he's made it available to try.
GuitarAtomik
Member
This would get so tiring so quick. Seriously, just test it it out by jogging in place for intermittently for 15-20 minutes. Then imagine that with a Vive on your head/face.That said, it could be great for a work out app.
Guardian Monkey
Member
Anyone have a good solution for the breakout box not getting dragged around.
Zalusithix
Member
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
serversurfer
Member
Except youre not dissecting anything. Youre just spouting nonsense and demonstrating your fundamental misunderstanding of VR. For example
https://youtu.be/godnB5PhoDU?t=4m30s
I still cant find the specific video* where he refers directly to camera control, so hopefully this will do. Its specifically about ratcheting again, but he talks about similarly violent camera movement.
https://youtu.be/OcyKhtHOc5U?t=24m30s
*YouTube needs searchable transcripts ><
Except your brain doesnt consider the results to be "false," because those results are a direct product of the instructions being sent to the hand. Your brain thinks, Id like to be closer to tha <Burns>Excellent.</Burns> Your brain is actually quite comfortable with the idea of producing results with the hands. Most of your brain is devoted to it, in fact.
Dig those tiny feet.
Yeah, my bad; I was watching it while I was doing something else and mostly just noticed that he spent a lot of time in the CB, but I guess he was demoing, so whatever. Anyway, it would be a lot more efficient if a button tap would cast rays from the helmet to find the far end of the CB, and simply snap-rotate the VE so the chest then lies along that path. Then the fairy dust can appear to tell the user which way to turn to relocate their loot without strangling themselves. Thatd be faster, and probably less disruptive.
Much like stars, actually, the comparatively small IR markers get lost easily, especially at longer ranges where they fill less of the cameras view. So they use widely spaced arrangements of markers with a fair bit of redundancy, so when individual stars inevitably twinkle out of sight, they can still recognize the constellation by the stars which are visible tonight err, visible this frame. So there might be a dozen LEDs on the front of the mask because during any given frame, theyre only gonna be able to see a random selection of six or ten of them. But, thats enough for them to say, Nah, thats definitely Orion, cuz theres the belt yeah and see Betelgeuse and Bellatrix up above? Hence the name.
As for why Move is "better," do you generally find it easier to spot Orion or an internally lit blimp of similar diameter in the night sky? "Easier to spot" is "better" when we're talking about trying to spot stuff.
Specific in what way? It would basically just serve as an auto-run function. Or instead of skates-on-ice, make it socks-on-linoleum and peter out after a short distance, but still allowing them to cover twelve paces with three good pushes, for example. Really, any kid of momentum you tack on at the end will help hint to the player that theyre moving through the environment. But as long as the user is setting the velocity manually and it then drops off at a predictable rate even 0 that should be pretty comfortable, I suspect.
Well, like I said, we can constrain the users movements arbitrarily. We just need to be reasonably predicable, like introducing appropriate planar restrictions. You have 6DOF control in the pool, but if youre holding on to the wall at the ice rink, you can really only change your x, y, and yaw. See what I mean?
I actually found a video where Rick Marks and Doc_Ok were talking about how awesome and useful ratcheting was, and how sad it was that nobody would even give it a chance. Well, it was more like Rick mentioned ratcheting is a thing, and Doc_Ok immediately started gushing about it (after politely waiting for Rick to finish). He was describing a little more freedom than youd probably want to give players in a typical game situation, but like I said, he was pretty excited someone else finally brought it up. Doc concludes with, Everybody frowns upon it, but once they try it, everybody loves it. Its just the most natural thing.
https://youtu.be/ojuqO0wzweE?t=37m3s
Well, whats nice about it is that as Doc_Ok points out, the technique itself allows for some crazy and useful possibilities in the abstract, and I think we can simply allow/disallow certain techniques at certain times so that player locomotion is only allowed in non-game-breaking-yet-predictable ways. For example, we could allow players to simply fling themselves in to the air like Thor, or we can make it so that gravity still affects them and they plop right back to Earth as soon as they release the button. I think the flexibility there may be one of its greatest strengths, really.
You should watch the rest of the panel, because its pretty good stuff. They talk at some length about the power and flexibility provided by having a pair of 6DOF controllers, and weve really just begun to tap it. But since we control the functionality we expose to the users, we can offer them the simple ability to reach out and pull themselves forward as Rick suggested, or the crazy and convenient travel-via-world-scaling that Doc_Ok described, or anything in between.
But at the end of the day, we need to figure out how to use these powerful input devices provide users enough functionality to ensure that they always have an effective way to move from A to B, but not so much functionality they turn in to game-breaking gods unless thats your game, of course. While its probably not the ultimate solution for all problems, I think giving users the ability to simply reach out and say, Id like to be right here, is a reasonable enough place to start. Once we have some basic control over positioning, perhaps similar mechanics could be used to control traversal, or maybe we can think of better ways to use the 6DOF to describe that. The best way will likely depend on the type of traversal were trying to replicate, whether walking, climbing, swimming, flying, or whatever.
Sure, but like I said, skates are a thing too. And once everyone is used to skating around everywhere, they wont even care if their toons actually have wheels on their feet or not. Theyll be buying ankle-wing mods and shit like that instead.
Yeah, its really just another tool in the chest, and to some extent, its just a function of a 6DOF controller. Its already designed specifically to allow you to grab and manipulate stuff in a virtual environment, and that includes the environment itself. We can basically allow the player as much or as little freedom as we choose.
5ms!
No, most of the headsets are ~18ms, I think, which is good enough, apparently. I suspect we wont hit 5ms any time soon though.That's clever. Anyone know why he can't just use the headset to detect the movement? Too much stabilization done by the rest of your body to get a good read from there? Regardless, sticking the wand in his belt is clearly just a proof of concept. Seems like you should be able to get all of the needed data from a Bluetooth IMU clipped to your belt. He's basically just using the wand as a networked pedometer so he knows when to move the avatar forward. Just the jostling in your head should help minimize sickness though.
Yeah, I was thinking it might be nicer using more subtle movements, but you might need an "appropriate" amount of jostling in your ears based on how fast you're moving. You could probably train yourself to be comfortable with less jostling and/or more speed though, I'd imagine.
Khalifa Jayy
Banned
This is kind of amazing.
Assetto Corsa GT3 Oculus Rift "Mixed Reality"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlFKjWGxZqk
Assetto Corsa GT3 Oculus Rift "Mixed Reality"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlFKjWGxZqk
Ha, very well done. Taking a drink is a nice touch.
I have a liitle thread going for these - http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1203172
Your hands and brain communicate alot. That doesn't mean that your head will re-map those signals with no qualms.
A constructive idea.
Who's to say the cameras aren't high-res enough to differentiate smaller clusters of IR led's?
Show me a QR code, and I'll have no idea what it leads to. Show it to a phone, and it will decypher it instantly. So I don't find your example all that relatable.
I can't find the post, but I believe it was a Hover Junkers developer who claimed that walking in place on the Virtuix Omni still causes motion sickness, because even though your head is bobbing up and down and your legs are moving, there's still no horizontal movement for your inner ear to agree with what's happening in the virtual world. Bobbing up and down in place would therefore fail the same test.
plagiarize
Banned
So I just got to try out The Lab and a couple of other things using my Razer Hydras, which I literally had to dust off. Tracking clearly isn't 1:1 but I've got them pretty well set up and they work okay for maybe half of the experiences in the lab. The catapult works fine. The bullet hell thing worked really well. I tried the demo of The Brookhaven Experiment too.
They twitch more and more the further from the base station they get with the current implementation, but it's nice being able to get a sense of these things without waiting for my friend's Vive or the Touch controllers.
Plus, as janky as the current implementation is, it's also nice to use my Hydra's again for something. I'm not sure why they're so twitchy as they never were before. Hopefully they can get them working better.
It's impressive how fun something as simple as Brookhaven is, even with super twitchy guns that aren't motion tracked that well. As twitchy as they get, it doesn't seem to effect the aiming much. Maybe some autoaim is happening?
Unfortunately the twitchiness really prevents you from enjoying the Longbow game in the Lab. I was hoping that one would be plenty playable, but the tracking isn't nearly good enough for it.
I can't get the budget cuts demo to install unfortunately. I'll mess around with that tomorrow. Anyways, time for some Pinball FX 2 before I hit the sack. It's still my favorite VR game.
They twitch more and more the further from the base station they get with the current implementation, but it's nice being able to get a sense of these things without waiting for my friend's Vive or the Touch controllers.
Plus, as janky as the current implementation is, it's also nice to use my Hydra's again for something. I'm not sure why they're so twitchy as they never were before. Hopefully they can get them working better.
It's impressive how fun something as simple as Brookhaven is, even with super twitchy guns that aren't motion tracked that well. As twitchy as they get, it doesn't seem to effect the aiming much. Maybe some autoaim is happening?
Unfortunately the twitchiness really prevents you from enjoying the Longbow game in the Lab. I was hoping that one would be plenty playable, but the tracking isn't nearly good enough for it.
I can't get the budget cuts demo to install unfortunately. I'll mess around with that tomorrow. Anyways, time for some Pinball FX 2 before I hit the sack. It's still my favorite VR game.
Shimapanic
Member
This was on gamestop.com/vr
"PERSISTENCE - Just a few years ago, if you were to put on an Oculus Rift developer kit, turning your head would result in the image smearing. This "screen door" effect was created by images lingering too long on the screen. Over the years, Oculus and others working on consumer virtual reality have reduced image persistence to minimize the lingering after effects."
I'm sort of new to VR Stuff (I have a Gear VR and plan on getting a Vive)
Isn't the screen door effect the "grid"/lines you see between the pixels, and not what they said in this?
"PERSISTENCE - Just a few years ago, if you were to put on an Oculus Rift developer kit, turning your head would result in the image smearing. This "screen door" effect was created by images lingering too long on the screen. Over the years, Oculus and others working on consumer virtual reality have reduced image persistence to minimize the lingering after effects."
I'm sort of new to VR Stuff (I have a Gear VR and plan on getting a Vive)
Isn't the screen door effect the "grid"/lines you see between the pixels, and not what they said in this?
Yeah, it's not caused by ghosting. In fact as you move your head the gaps between pixels are harder to perceive than if the image is perfectly still. Low persistence screens are used to minimize ghosting, but I don't know why they conflate the two in that blurb.
Just got done playing Vanishing Realms.. Jesus... I think besides Audioshield, this is the killer app for Vive. The battle system is real nice. For nearly an hour I literally had presence only broken when I hit a box or my treadmill in the basement.
For anyone with a Vive, you guys owe it to yourselves to get Vanishing Realms. This is the future of dungeon crawling and my gosh, I cannot wait for an MMORPG with these mechanics. Seriously, it would be fucking glorious.
For anyone with a Vive, you guys owe it to yourselves to get Vanishing Realms. This is the future of dungeon crawling and my gosh, I cannot wait for an MMORPG with these mechanics. Seriously, it would be fucking glorious.
Allnamestakenlol
Member
Ha, I really enjoyed what I've played of it so far. I'm such a wuss, tho. That first skellie almost gave me a heart attack.
Ha, I really enjoyed what I've played of it so far. I'm such a wuss, tho. That first skellie almost gave me a heart attack.
Yeah, that one got me too. I actually jumped back when I saw it.
Roughly two weeks since I received my Vive and even the simplest of room-scale experiences continue to impress me. I find myself pacing around areas just to be there. I'm convinced that the most rewarding VR games will be those that find clever ways to apply room-scale to the core of their design.
I'd love to see something resembling a dungeon crawler (blobber) where searching for secret passages involved closely examining your surrounding walls, from banging object on it to search for hollow sounds, to moving a torch around to check for air currents.
I'd love to see something resembling a dungeon crawler (blobber) where searching for secret passages involved closely examining your surrounding walls, from banging object on it to search for hollow sounds, to moving a torch around to check for air currents.
Oculus exclusivity push continues:
http://www.roadtovr.com/insomniac-a...en-oculus-touch-exclusive/?platform=hootsuite
Edit: took out my "bullshit"
http://www.roadtovr.com/insomniac-a...en-oculus-touch-exclusive/?platform=hootsuite
Edit: took out my "bullshit"
Zalusithix
Member
The question is exclusive for how long? A lot of the exclusives have only been timed. Who knows, perhaps by the time that rolls around, the Vive will be officially supported. (Not that I'm confident in that.)
Turin Turambar
Member
Jesus, just grow up.
GuitarAtomik
Member
If Oculus is paying for it and they're taking advantage of Touch's unique features, I don't see the problem. That said, it would be awesome if they can translate it to Vive eventually.
I'm not growing anymore at this age. I might even go in reverse in some years.
artsi
Member
Keyboards aren't cutting edge technology, they all use standards set in stone ages ago, so no.
VR is new and these things will smooth out as time goes on. That's after both Oculus and Valve are done with the cockfighting and VR API development goes under a consortium instead of a single company with their own interests.
These are funded by Oculus. It's basically the same situation as first party console games.
http://ca.ign.com/articles/2015/07/13/oculus-luckey-offers-explanation-for-exclusive-rift-games
Yeah, they get worse with distance because they rely on a magnetic field. Can't cover the same area for that reason.
(I actually took the $100 hit to refund my STEM preorder once I heard about the Lighthouse system)
Zalusithix
Member
A universal VR API will require some third party with enough clout to step and force it. I don't see Valve and Oculus getting along on that front if left to their own devices given they have rather opposing ideals. The best we're likely going to see in the near to mid term are the most used engines (Unreal, Cryengine, Unity) supporting both and unifying their implementation from a dev's standpoint.
I understand why it happens. I just don't like that this is going now outside of the console world into the PC market. Especially in these days when except Nintendo exclusives have become less and less relevant.
artsi
Member
It takes time but I'm sure it'll happen at some point as more HMD manufacturers are entering the market.
Valve might license OpenVR openly but it could be stressing them too being the sole developer.
Could also be that the consortium developed API will come completely from somewhere else (Google?).
Looking at the past at (somewhat comparable situation) SGI was the only developer of IRIS GL, 3D graphics API until they said fuck it in 1992 and formed a consortium to develop and maintain what's called now OpenGL.
Should be noted that despite it DirectX (Microsoft developed) is still alive and kicking. Doesn't mean VR has to go the same road, though.
Zalusithix
Member
Short of Microsoft rolling a VR API into the traditional stack of DirectX/Xinput/DirectInput, or the Khronos Group doing something similar, I only see OpenVR as having a real shot at being a universal API - assuming they partner up with other major players. Oculus wants to completely tie the API to their store which is a nonstarter. OSVR just doesn't have the support needed in general to gain critical mass. Google is too focused on their own platforms to care much about the PC, and frankly they're too fickle of a company to rely on for an industry standard.
Anyhow, a VR API to rule them all will happen eventually, somehow, but that's probably years away. In the interim things are going to be a bit rocky.
artsi
Member
Yeah, overall I think everything is a wild card right now.
Looking at the past, IRIS GL was the closed but better performing API (like Oculus SDK now). They made it open after they started losing marketshare to the (back then) more open PHIGS, again taking the lead with that move (in time).
Then DirectX (100% closed API) came and kind of wiped the floor with both in the PC gaming space.
I would not actually see it impossible Facebook doing the same move in the future, right now they do have plenty of open-source project in the web technology space. But like I said, it's a wild card and no one knows what the situation is in 5-10 years.
I'm just very interested what will happen, meanwhile I think it's better to get both Rift and Vive if I want to play every game without hiccups.
Reddit AMA with a bunch of Vive developers coming up in 5 hours: https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/4fcjcz/later_today_6hrs_from_post_loads_of_vive_game/
(time zone converter)
(time zone converter)
Dreams-Visions
Member
looks interesting. I'm sure Insomniac will deliver!
The community will break land speed records getting this game working on the Rift. I think this sort of game has a lot of promise; drawing out weapons and shields n shit.
Do you mean the vive?
Incredible. You are probably the least informed person posting consistently in this thread, and have the audacity to say someone else misunderstands VR?
The thing you bolded and underlined as an example of his "fundamental misunderstanding" is 100% true. What do you believe is the #1 cause of nausea in VR? (aside from using a shitty non-Sony Playstation® VR system)
The reason "grab the world" movement doesn't make you sick is because your brain believes that is what's actually happening. You are moving the world around while your body is stationary. Whether it makes sense to use in a specific game or if it's more or less immersion breaking than roomscale/teleporting are separate matters entirely. Matters that you probably shouldn't comment on because you have hands on experience with neither.
Guardian Monkey
Member
Ha its funny that you said that. I had some right by my desk that I strapped ot the leg of the desk before coming back today and seeing this post.
Guardian Monkey
Member
Owlowiscious
Member
All of silver surfers posts point towards the PSVR being the optimal device. This is why PJ made such a comment.
OSVR support is in a fledgling state, but is advancing rapidly.
Check out its wiki page
https://www.reddit.com/r/OSVR/wiki/index
What do you mean. He's dealing with serversurfer, what more is there to say.
plagiarize
Banned
So I've been messing about a bit more with my hydras and Steam VR. First of all it further confirms that the Rift can absolutely do room scale. Heck, if I'm doing it today with the Razer Hydras, then I'll definitely be doing it with the Touch controllers, even if I need to get some USB extension cables.
I got Budget Cuts to work... mostly. For whatever reason, the hydras do not remotely recognize throwing motions. I'm guessing throwing in Budget Cuts and in the Lab are based not on the positional tracking, but the accelerometers, and I don't think the hydra has those.
Even without being able to use the throwing knives, I was able to beat the Budget Cuts demo and it was a fun experience. I'm not sure how engaging teleporting will be for everything else using it, but it was absolutely engaging in Budget Cuts.
And contrary to what the game claims (about being roomscale only) it's a standing 360 game. Yes, you can teleport into a room and walk around it. But you can just as easily teleport around it, and most people I've seen play it, play it this way.
It's definitely one to pick up whatever your play space. I wouldn't recommend buying the full version to play with Hydras (again, you can't use the throwing knives!) but the atmosphere is great, and it's incredibly tense. The teleportation gun has enough limitations to it's range, and firing speed to not undermine the tension.
It's great stuff.
Catlateral Damage in VR is going to need more space than I've got though. Teleporting up to stuff to knock it over isn't nearly as cool as teleporting around the office in Budget Cuts. I can imagine running around a room and knocking stuff over being a *lot* more fun.
I'm certainly not going to make up my mind about motion controls based on the current Hydra implementation, but of the stuff I've been able to try out, certainly a lot of it felt like it would work perfectly well as a standing 360 experience... but at least one feels massively limited if left as a standing experience.
Again, space limitations in my house (which we now officially own! WOOO) rear their head. I've got plans for the multipurpose room in the basement, but it's going to take some funds and we won't have those for a while.
If anything I'm more eager to try out the Vive and I hope my buddy Jerry gets his soon so I can try these games out in a larger space with perfectly tracked motion controls. But I think the Touch is going to cover a lot of these games just fine, Budget Cuts included... even if you have to use Steam VR to play them with chaperone.
I got Budget Cuts to work... mostly. For whatever reason, the hydras do not remotely recognize throwing motions. I'm guessing throwing in Budget Cuts and in the Lab are based not on the positional tracking, but the accelerometers, and I don't think the hydra has those.
Even without being able to use the throwing knives, I was able to beat the Budget Cuts demo and it was a fun experience. I'm not sure how engaging teleporting will be for everything else using it, but it was absolutely engaging in Budget Cuts.
And contrary to what the game claims (about being roomscale only) it's a standing 360 game. Yes, you can teleport into a room and walk around it. But you can just as easily teleport around it, and most people I've seen play it, play it this way.
It's definitely one to pick up whatever your play space. I wouldn't recommend buying the full version to play with Hydras (again, you can't use the throwing knives!) but the atmosphere is great, and it's incredibly tense. The teleportation gun has enough limitations to it's range, and firing speed to not undermine the tension.
It's great stuff.
Catlateral Damage in VR is going to need more space than I've got though. Teleporting up to stuff to knock it over isn't nearly as cool as teleporting around the office in Budget Cuts. I can imagine running around a room and knocking stuff over being a *lot* more fun.
I'm certainly not going to make up my mind about motion controls based on the current Hydra implementation, but of the stuff I've been able to try out, certainly a lot of it felt like it would work perfectly well as a standing 360 experience... but at least one feels massively limited if left as a standing experience.
Again, space limitations in my house (which we now officially own! WOOO) rear their head. I've got plans for the multipurpose room in the basement, but it's going to take some funds and we won't have those for a while.
If anything I'm more eager to try out the Vive and I hope my buddy Jerry gets his soon so I can try these games out in a larger space with perfectly tracked motion controls. But I think the Touch is going to cover a lot of these games just fine, Budget Cuts included... even if you have to use Steam VR to play them with chaperone.
