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[Zalusithix]

Unless it is more of a Star Trek, walk around the bridge/commanding, sort of deal.

I am so waiting for a sci-fi RTS/TBS space game where you're fleet commander. Being able to walk around the bridge, bring up a holo-map, give commands, warp from ship to ship, etc. No overhead views or fog of war like a traditional strategy game. Everything represented in universe as it would be in real life and able to be interacted with naturally.

 

[Bookoo]

I have the OR dev kits, but I haven't played a single seated VR game since getting the Vive at launch. I just can't find an excuse to bother.

I'd much rather play a seated game on my tv or projector than with a headset on.

Well I think a large part depends on the game. I have a Vive and haven't touched it since May and most of the VR games I play are seated.

I have found seated games more engaging right now since devs know how to make those and I think VR really does add something to them. After playing Edge of Nowhere, I just kept thinking how cool it would be to play an Uncharted in VR since it would provide a sense of scale.

I am excited for touch and motion controls in general, but I am just waiting for the content to get there.

 

[Wallach]

I would argue a good driving or flight sim in VR with a good high end wheel or HOTAS setup is easily as immersive as roomscale VR. There's no way I would prefer even a really high end triple monitor setup for that than using VR.

I would as "as immersive", it is straight up more. That is peak immersion for VR at the moment. There is no design constraints really in either of those genres, like there still is in most "room scale" games putting players on their feet.

Even with a Vive I don't put a lot of stock in the real "room scale" idea. You want tracked controllers, and you want to be able to turn around and use them. That is 99% of the value of a Vive right now in my eyes. Being able to walk around in a space larger than "standing space" already designs for is something that has proven to have very little value to me in my ~3.2m squared VR room. The time it has mattered the most was Fantastic Contraption. But in the games that people often bring up when talking about "room scale" - Raw Data, Vanishing Realms, Space Pirate Trainer - the standing space is the vast majority of where you play those games. Particularly stuff like Raw Data or Vanishing Realms with additional locomotion options. I actually kind of wish both of those games had a 180 degree flip button.

 

[gafneo]

So why did Valve release Steam Machines, then launch a VR that doesn't work on a good handful of them? "Hi, our Steam Machines are meant for long term, you can upgrade them once. Oh just forgot, those machines are obsolete, you needed to guess that our specs would be demanding for VR. Don't you PC game? Thats why we sell console pcs to elitist only. What's wrong with you? I could explain but I'll let you do all the research. Oh that VR headset we sold to the public was just a prototype, it won't work on newer machines once we release the official nonHTC. What you don't like spending tons of money for short term investments? Should have built your own VR headset like all the other elitists -Gabe"

 

[Zalusithix]

I actually kind of wish both of those games had a 180 degree flip button.

That sounds disorienting as hell. Teleportation I can deal with easily. I'm facing the same direction before and after. Teleportation with rotation fucks with my spacial awareness and I take much longer to adjust. The last thing I'd want in Raw Data is to be spending time constantly adjusting my perception of where I am.

 

[ArtHands]

Really want to try this out. No support for the Rift yet?

I am not sure about rift as I dont have one...sorry

 

[vermadas]

So why did Valve release Steam Machines, then launch a VR that doesn't work on a good handful of them? "Hi, our Steam Machines are meant for long term, you can upgrade them once. Oh just forgot, those machines are obsolete, you needed to guess that our specs would be demanding for VR. Don't you PC game? Thats why we sell console pcs to elitist only. What's wrong with you? I could explain but I'll let you do all the research. Oh that VR headset we sold to the public was just a prototype, it won't work on newer machines once we release the official nonHTC. What you don't like spending tons of money for short term investments? Should have built your own VR headset like all the other elitists -Gabe"

They launched Steam Machines because Steam was threatened by Microsoft taking steps toward locking down Windows and forcing everything through their store.

They introduced OpenVR, SteamVR, and helped HTC with the Vive because Steam was threatened by Oculus opening their own store and potentially monopolizing VR software sales.

I'm not sure if it's worth addressing the rest of the tinfoil hat nonsense in your post.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

I really like seated VR stuff too. Chronos is awesome, Elite Dangerous is awesome, and I want to pick up Edge of Nowhere soon. That said, 95% of the time I put on my Vive not totally sure about what I want to play, I scroll right past the seated experiences and end up playing something roomscale or standing. Like I said, they're really cool. But when I put on the headset, roomscale stuff is immediately more compelling.

So why did Valve release Steam Machines, then launch a VR that doesn't work on a good handful of them? "Hi, our Steam Machines are meant for long term, you can upgrade them once. Oh just forgot, those machines are obsolete, you needed to guess that our specs would be demanding for VR. Don't you PC game? Thats why we sell console pcs to elitist only. What's wrong with you? I could explain but I'll let you do all the research. Oh that VR headset we sold to the public was just a prototype, it won't work on newer machines once we release the official nonHTC. What you don't like spending tons of money for short term investments? Should have built your own VR headset like all the other elitists -Gabe"

 

[mrklaw]

I would as "as immersive", it is straight up more. That is peak immersion for VR at the moment. There is no design constraints really in either of those genres, like there still is in most "room scale" games putting players on their feet.

Even with a Vive I don't put a lot of stock in the real "room scale" idea. You want tracked controllers, and you want to be able to turn around and use them. That is 99% of the value of a Vive right now in my eyes. Being able to walk around in a space larger than "standing space" already designs for is something that has proven to have very little value to me in my ~3.2m squared VR room. The time it has mattered the most was Fantastic Contraption. But in the games that people often bring up when talking about "room scale" - Raw Data, Vanishing Realms, Space Pirate Trainer - the standing space is the vast majority of where you play those games. Particularly stuff like Raw Data or Vanishing Realms with additional locomotion options. I actually kind of wish both of those games had a 180 degree flip button.

I think when people say 'room scale' they basically mean what the vive does - the phrase was coined by valve and has become synonymous with it.

I agree the real value from the vive is 360 degree freedom of movement with tracked controllers - not the ability to walk around a large space. But I kind of still wrap that up as 'room scale' in my head

 

[Wallach]

I think when people say 'room scale' they basically mean what the vive does - the phrase was coined by valve and has become synonymous with it.

I agree the real value from the vive is 360 degree freedom of movement with tracked controllers - not the ability to walk around a large space. But I kind of still wrap that up as 'room scale' in my head

Yeah, I think a lot of folks do and it's certainly working in their favor as people see the Oculus keynote and think "you need 3 sensors to do room scale" when I think the majority of folks are not going to need 3 sensors in their actual play space.

 

[Zalusithix]

Yeah, I think a lot of folks do and it's certainly working in their favor as people see the Oculus keynote and think "you need 3 sensors to do room scale" when I think the majority of folks are not going to need 3 sensors in their actual play space.

Well, that's only working in their favor because Oculus needed 3 to do it in the first place. It's not like Valve planned that in advance. Unless Gaben is clairvoyant.

 

[Crayon]

In in for just the seated games. I believe a really great standing or room scale game will come.along, but the cockpit Sims are a sure thing and worth the price of admission for me.

 

[Wallach]

Well, that's only working in their favor because Oculus needed 3 to do it in the first place. It's not like Valve planned that in advance. Unless Gaben is clairvoyant.

I'm talking about the sort of mental wrapping up of 360 degree VR and actual walkabout gameplay both being wrapped up into the term "room scale". Those two things are not really the same thing, and only one of them is going to require 3 sensors. But I think people hear that the 3rd sensor is required for "room scale" and just assume the 2 sensor setup is only for forward facing like they used to talk about (partially because Oculus blew past all of that stuff way too quickly in their keynote with too few details).

 

[Cuburt]

Will PSVR still be able to be considered "high-end VR?

It's a well designed headset but the low resolution and lack of an additional positioning sensor like a magnetometer seems like it will hurt the experience in the long run, especially if you are paying $500 and expecting a high-end experience.

 

[Wallach]

Will PSVR still be able to be considered "high-end VR?

It's a well designed headset but the low resolution and lack of an additional positioning sensor like a magnetometer seems like it will hurt the experience in the long run, especially if you are paying $500 and expecting a high-end experience.

It's kind of borderline probably, but I think right now the separation between VR devices hinges largely on positional tracking, low persistence display and high refresh rates. So I'd still put PSVR in that camp.

 

[Crayon]

It's kind of borderline probably, but I think right now the separation between VR devices hinges largely on positional tracking, low persistence display and high refresh rates. So I'd still put PSVR in that camp.

I'd agree. Borderline. Probably good enough for vr right now, but it's up in the air if it will be considered obolete before it can get off the ground. Sony is really pushing it down in price and out the door soon.

I have a feeling there is enough room to grow and make quality games within the limitations of the psvr for the two or three years it has to go before a successor. But there is really no telling. 2 years from now, it could be the standard, or it could be just some toy.

 

[Zalusithix]

I'm talking about the sort of mental wrapping up of 360 degree VR and actual walkabout gameplay both being wrapped up into the term "room scale". Those two things are not really the same thing, and only one of them is going to require 3 sensors. But I think people hear that the 3rd sensor is required for "room scale" and just assume the 2 sensor setup is only for forward facing like they used to talk about (partially because Oculus blew past all of that stuff way too quickly in their keynote with too few details).

I know what you're talking about, but you're saying the merging of the terms is working in Valve's/HTC's favor. Which it is, but that's solely due to Oculus requiring more to do the same. If Oculus only required two sensors to do the same as the Vive, the ambiguity wouldn't have helped Valve/HTC or hindered Oculus.

I'm just saying that the ambiguity was never planned to benefit anybody.

 

[Bookoo]

I'm talking about the sort of mental wrapping up of 360 degree VR and actual walkabout gameplay both being wrapped up into the term "room scale". Those two things are not really the same thing, and only one of them is going to require 3 sensors. But I think people hear that the 3rd sensor is required for "room scale" and just assume the 2 sensor setup is only for forward facing like they used to talk about (partially because Oculus blew past all of that stuff way too quickly in their keynote with too few details).

Yea, it was oddly worded and it only causes confusion. I think the only reason they mentioned the 3rd sensor is to be on the safe side and to allow for larger play spaces.

I posted a video a few posts up of the Fantastic Contraption Dev using only 2 cameras in a room that looks like it's its probably is the size of most play spaces if not bigger (looks like its 7-10ft). He is walking around just fine and his setup isn't even that ideal.

They should have said something like "we can do room scale for X size of room and for extra coverage you can buy an extra sensor for $80 bucks" That way people may complain because the room size is smaller, but for the majority of people it's not really any issue.

 

[Wallach]

I know what you're talking about, but you're saying the merging of the terms is working in Valve's/HTC's favor. Which it is, but that's solely due to Oculus requiring more to do the same. If Oculus only required two sensors to do the same as the Vive, the ambiguity wouldn't have helped Valve/HTC or hindered Oculus.

I'm just saying that the ambiguity was never planned to benefit anybody.

Sure, I don't think it was something HTC or Valve planned. I didn't mean to imply that, it's something that has been created by the vacuum Oculus left in both of those dynamics until now. Neither Valve or HTC had a reason to separate those two ideas. I'm just pointing out that the association is definitely working in the Vive's favor, and leaves Oculus with the work of having to define them at the same time they try to sell these new products.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

It's kind of borderline probably, but I think right now the separation between VR devices hinges largely on positional tracking, low persistence display and high refresh rates. So I'd still put PSVR in that camp.

Yep. I think the biggest limiter of PSVR is its single camera setup which doesn't allow for much movement or 360 degree rotation (for the controllers at least). Otherwise it's up there with the other guys.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Carmack keynote starting up soon.

I wonder if it'll go more into the spacewarp stuff.

 

[Wallach]

Carmack keynote starting up soon.

I wonder if it'll go more into the spacewarp stuff.

Hoping so. I'm still surprised they have that working already. Going to be playing with it tonight once I wrap up work stuff.

 

[TheBear]

This video just introduced me to VRidge and...holy shit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceSqTaOHgnY

As someone who is only interested in PC VR for Sim Racing, is this not a perfect substitute for Rift/Vive? What's the catch here?

 

[Fret]

Woodsie just released a very interesting video: An Open Letter To Valve

basically - Valve isn't doing enough to fund content. I actually agree, I haven't used my Vive in like 2 months, there just isn't enough games to play. After watching the Oculus keynote yesterday I came out pretty impressed, but also disappointed that Valve isn't doing any of it.

 

[Septimius]

This video just introduced me to VRidge and...holy shit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceSqTaOHgnY

As someone who is only interested in PC VR for Sim Racing, is this not a perfect substitute for Rift/Vive? What's the catch here?

Lag?

 

[TheBear]

Lag?

Apparently not, he mentions it being lag free around 5.15 mark

 

[cakefoo]

This video just introduced me to VRidge and...holy shit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceSqTaOHgnY

As someone who is only interested in PC VR for Sim Racing, is this not a perfect substitute for Rift/Vive? What's the catch here?

Without positional headtracking, it's more of a substitute for the original Rift DK1.

 

[Zalusithix]

Without positional headtracking, it's more of a substitute for the original Rift DK1.

Yep, the lack of positional tracking will feel artificial even if everything else is spot on.

 

[kinggroin]

Really wish Valve would embrace ASW and ATW as options for slower experiences anyway.


Also, while it's nice we have revive, I'm really wishing we had what OCULUS does in regards to software, but natively supported.


Or maybe Valve could do a better job funding software or assist in polishing EA games.

 

[Soi-Fong]

Just tried Guided Meditation VR..its not a game but its a really cool relaxing app.

Dev here for that! Glad to hear you liked it.

Really want to try this out. No support for the Rift yet?

We're working on Rift support next!

 

[gafneo]

They launched Steam Machines because Steam was threatened by Microsoft taking steps toward locking down Windows and forcing everything through their store.

They introduced OpenVR, SteamVR, and helped HTC with the Vive because Steam was threatened by Oculus opening their own store and potentially monopolizing VR software sales.

I'm not sure if it's worth addressing the rest of the tinfoil hat nonsense in your post.

Oh I sound like the crazy one because Valve decides to quietly abandon linix support for Steam OS and Steam Machines? OK lets brush it under the rug and pretend like nothing happened. What didn't happen was all the stuff you just said. Windows is welcoming to gaming from third party apps. They are not sticking their nose in Steams business because they also believe in open platform. Steam Machines are last priority and a slap in the face to anyone who expected support beyond launch.

 

[mrklaw]

Yeah, I think a lot of folks do and it's certainly working in their favor as people see the Oculus keynote and think "you need 3 sensors to do room scale" when I think the majority of folks are not going to need 3 sensors in their actual play space.

well they might. If the default touch setup is twin front cameras, then many/most games will assume that setup. so any extended setup for room scale/360 degree tracking may need that third camera, unless you're happy to be moving your two cameras around when you switch game types.

 

[Fafalada]

Apparently not, he mentions it being lag free around 5.15 mark

With GearVR performing the reprojection (aka TimeWarp), and there being NO positional tracking, reprojection will effectively compensate for head-tracking latency completely (if you ignore near-field objects, and edge-of screen artifacts). So the illusion can hold reasonably well, but it's just that.

Eg. - theoretical minimum(ignoring any wireless communication/transmission costs,compression/decompression etc.) would be adding ~17ms of latency, which for "good" VR games means doubling the motion-photon latency. Real world numbers are likely higher than that.

 

[TheBear]

With GearVR performing the reprojection (aka TimeWarp), and there being NO positional tracking, reprojection will effectively compensate for head-tracking latency completely (if you ignore near-field objects, and edge-of screen artifacts). So the illusion can hold reasonably well, but it's just that.

Eg. - theoretical minimum(ignoring any wireless communication/transmission costs,compression/decompression etc.) would be adding ~17ms of latency, which for "good" VR games means doubling the motion-photon latency. Real world numbers are likely higher than that.

Is positional tracking a requirement for seated racing/cockpit games?

 

[Sleeping Lesson]

Is positional tracking a requirement for seated racing/cockpit games?

I guess it's not absolutely necessary, but I wouldn't play without it.

 

[Tain]

Is positional tracking a requirement for seated racing/cockpit games?

It'll make everything more immersive and comfortable, even in a cockpit game. I consider it a requirement for "good" VR.

 

[TheBear]

I guess it's not absolutely necessary, but I wouldn't play without it.

It'll make everything more immersive and comfortable, even in a cockpit game. I consider it a requirement for "good" VR.

Could you be more specific? I guess I'm not understanding what I would be missing out on here, as the guy in that video is not having any issues playing Project Cars. Will it do weird stuff to make you sick or something?

 

[GuitarAtomik]

Could you be more specific? I guess I'm not understanding what I would be missing out on here, as the guy in that video is not having any issues playing Project Cars. Will it do weird stuff to make you sick or something?

It's odd moving you head forward or backward or to the side and the image not moving with you. Like imagine trying to lean towards the rear view mirror to get a better look except your head doesn't move any closer to it. It's probably totally playable that way and maybe even better than playing on a monitor, but it won't feel nearly as natural as a headset that can do full positional tracking. Instead, it will feel kind of like your head is stuck on a tripod.

 

[Sleeping Lesson]

To add to that, just looking left and right moves the position of your head. Even though it may seem you're only moving rotationally, those subtle positional changes matter both for comfort and functionally. In driving games, you don't just turn your head to look into a turn, you often lean to see around your A-pillar.

Small stuff like that adds up.

 

[Wallach]

VR Lens Lab looks like they are offering new "RABS" lenses that attempt to correct for barrel distortion.

I went ahead and ordered a second set for the Rift to see how well they work in that regard. They also have some new spacer deals for the Rift adapters that look like they should keep them in place a bit better.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

VR Lens Lab looks like they are offering new "RABS" lenses that attempt to correct for barrel distortion.

I went ahead and ordered a second set for the Rift to see how well they work in that regard. They also have some new spacer deals for the Rift adapters that look like they should keep them in place a bit better.

Be sure to let us know how they are. If they really did fix the problem, I might order a second set, despite the high price, since they're pretty essential for me.

(I wish we could just get a software fix, it should be 100% correctable that way)

 

[Grinchy]

The company that makes Job Simulator (Owlchemy Labs) did a AMA about the PSVR version. Someone asked about the process of porting it to PS4 and they replied:

This was Owlchemy’s first console title (after many PC and mobile titles), so it was a new experience. The single greatest challenge was optimization. We determined it was incredibly important to run the game at 90fps, supersample at 1.4x resolution, with MSAA x8 with very high quality shadows because we wanted a super smooth experience for players, especially since moving your hands around is so important . It was a challenge to get there, but it was totally worth all the hard work!

https://www.reddit.com/r/PSVR/comments/56tcod/we_are_owlchemy_labs_the_makers_of_job_simulator/

AFAIK, this is the first confirmation of what settings a developer is able to get from PS4 that could be compared to the PC version. I was really happy to see that they went for 90fps native instead of doing the 60-120 reprojection.

 

[Durante]

That also seems to implicitly confirm that one of the biggest issues with relying on 60 FPS reprojection would be the controller tracking, which is what some of us expected based on how it works.

 

[Situacao]

Personal opinion here, but the more I try VR, the "more meh" I feel about it.

At first, VR really seemed like the next big thing, but as I started to see the disadvantages it has regarding interaction (movement, feedback, etc.), it has started to seem really gimmicky to me. There's lots of constrains in VR games and suddently it feels like I'm better off playing with a mouse-keyboard/controller than bothering with VR.

Has anyone else felt this? Is there a VR game I should really try out that my change my mind?

 

[Knuf]

Already posted?
PS VR teardown performed by Sony's very own mechanical design director.

 

[mckmas8808]

The company that makes Job Simulator (Owlchemy Labs) did a AMA about the PSVR version. Someone asked about the process of porting it to PS4 and they replied:



https://www.reddit.com/r/PSVR/comments/56tcod/we_are_owlchemy_labs_the_makers_of_job_simulator/

AFAIK, this is the first confirmation of what settings a developer is able to get from PS4 that could be compared to the PC version. I was really happy to see that they went for 90fps native instead of doing the 60-120 reprojection.

Very interesting to read.

 

[Durante]

Has anyone else felt this? Is there a VR game I should really try out that my change my mind?

Raw Data.

 

[Fafalada]

That also seems to implicitly confirm that one of the biggest issues with relying on 60 FPS reprojection would be the controller tracking, which is what some of us expected based on how it works.

To be fair - optimal controller tracking (even in 90 or 120hz games) is a harder problem than head-tracking is. Not un-solvable mind you, but I don't expect to get the best implementations of this until well into 2nd gen games, or possibly later.

 

[Zepp Twofist]

That also seems to implicitly confirm that one of the biggest issues with relying on 60 FPS reprojection would be the controller tracking, which is what some of us expected based on how it works.

The stuff I've seen from PS move, I am really scared that it will do more harm than good to the general public's impression of motion controls.

 

[KingSnake]

The stuff I've seen from PS move, I am really scared that it will do more harm than good to the general public's impression of motion controls.

It's already hurting the perception just by being one of the old motion controllers.