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The High-end VR Discussion Thread (HTC Vive, Oculus Rift, Playstation VR)

C

Cartman86

Banned
WA, USA person here. Card got charged for Vive. Shows as Processing. I ordered 4 minutes after it went up. I assume my bank would have flagged it already if they were going to right? Funny that I might end up getting my Vive before my Rift.
 
Zalusithix

Zalusithix

Member
AbortedWalrusFetus said:
I have news for you, but the percentage of the population with ambulatory disability is not as small as you might think. It's 5% of the US population between ages 21-64. Now, this is only the percentage of people in which it's high enough to be considered disabled. You look at the percentage of people in which it's not a disability, but involves pain, and you're going to get a MUCH larger percentage of people. I wouldn't be surprised if it was >15%. These are not things you can simply ignore when putting out a product.

For instance, I'm a healthy 32 year old male, but I suffer from a disorder called patellofemoral tracking syndrome, the pain of which on some days makes it difficult for me to squat to even tie my shoes. You'd have ZERO idea I was even experiencing pain if I didn't say anything. I can play sports, I can run, I can do literally anything but go into a deep squat without pain. If your entire platform is built around room scale, and those are the only experiences you provide, you can find yourself quickly alienating a segment of your target audience. I look forward to VR, even roomscale things, but when I see a demo of some guy bending down, or on hands and knees, that immediately writes that game off as something I can feasibly purchase and play. In order to be successful with as wide an audience as possible we're going to need compelling games that don't rely heavily on ambulation, you can't just focus in one area.
Click to expand...

While the tone might have been dismissive to people with handicaps, the statement itself still holds. Just because a portion of the population can't do something, doesn't make it so you never create things they can't use. There's a huge market in people that can walk around just fine. Sports equipment thrives on a market that can do far more than that.

Some games will be inclusive to those with disabilities. Some won't.
 
Zalusithix

Zalusithix

Member
I don't think this Teardown of the Rift has been posted yet?

Hello hybrid Fresnel lenses.
fQfRFnkpHBgyRduJ.huge

BWVtcSBsY1MKH26h.huge
Click to expand...
 
E

elyetis

Member
Nzyme32 said:
It's fake. One of the first comments is from the developer of the game - Colin Northway:

"tell Oculus to add a Chaperone system like the Vive! (This is my game btw)"

"also adding the crack seems a little disingenuous"

Someone else also commented:

"Oculus said it's simple and up to the developers.. So what's holding you guys back?"

which got the response

"Well I don't know about "simple" since we'd have to make a whole chaperone system."
Click to expand...
I'm not saying they should have to, and I really hope Oculus will offer a solution for it.
But it does should be pretty simple.
 
C

Cartman86

Banned
elyetis said:
I'm not saying they should have to, and I really hope Oculus will offer a solution for it.
But it does should be pretty simple.
Click to expand...

Sorry for the hyperbole but it would be beyond absurd for Oculus to not implement this system across everything if they are going to sell games that support standing or walking in their store. This should be a standard minimum safety feature for literally everything. Criminal even. I can't imagine they would not implement it.
 
P

pj

Banned
AbortedWalrusFetus said:
I have news for you, but the percentage of the population with ambulatory disability is not as small as you might think. It's 5% of the US population between ages 21-64. Now, this is only the percentage of people in which it's high enough to be considered disabled. You look at the percentage of people in which it's not a disability, but involves pain, and you're going to get a MUCH larger percentage of people. I wouldn't be surprised if it was >15%. These are not things you can simply ignore when putting out a product.

For instance, I'm a healthy 32 year old male, but I suffer from a disorder called patellofemoral tracking syndrome, the pain of which on some days makes it difficult for me to squat to even tie my shoes. You'd have ZERO idea I was even experiencing pain if I didn't say anything. I can play sports, I can run, I can do literally anything but go into a deep squat without pain. If your entire platform is built around room scale, and those are the only experiences you provide, you can find yourself quickly alienating a segment of your target audience. I look forward to VR, even roomscale things, but when I see a demo of some guy bending down, or on hands and knees, that immediately writes that game off as something I can feasibly purchase and play. In order to be successful with as wide an audience as possible we're going to need compelling games that don't rely heavily on ambulation, you can't just focus in one area.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry you have that condition but it's just not possible or practical to cater to everyone. Any hobby or activity you can name requires a physical ability that some segment of the population lacks.

Even if 15% of the population can't move around well, that's still 85% who can. I think the $1500+ total cost, free space requirement, and general lack of interest are far bigger limits on the room scale VR market for now.

Developers adapting room scale games to seated/controller experiences is currently driven by the lack of included roomscale and motion controllers in the rift. Once that is no longer an issue, I expect the demand for seated games to come from a segment of the population that is much larger than the less-mobile. The lazy. There will also always be demand from people who simply lack the space.
 
Zalusithix

Zalusithix

Member
Cartman86 said:
Sorry for the hyperbole but it would be beyond absurd for Oculus to not implement this system across everything if they are going to sell games that support standing or walking in their store. This should be a standard minimum safety feature for literally everything. Criminal even. I can't imagine they would not implement it.
Click to expand...

Considering their "concern" for the user with unrated content potentially being harmful, it would be awfully hypocritical of them to not have something like that by the time Touch ships. Arguably even now, there's probably an equal risk of a headache from smacking your head into the desk while wearing the Rift as something outside of their store causing one. ;P
 
D

dumbo

Member
Cartman86 said:
Sorry for the hyperbole but it would be beyond absurd for Oculus to not implement this system across everything if they are going to sell games that support standing or walking in their store. This should be a standard minimum safety feature for literally everything. Criminal even. I can't imagine they would not implement it.
Click to expand...

AFAICT the vive lighthouses are fixed, so the tracking volume is fixed. Whereas the oculus camera is not fixed, nor is the tracking volume.

Since there's no obvious way to detect whether the camera was turned/moved, there's no particularly good solution for chaperone:
- the system could assume the camera is in exactly the same spot, which may allow the player to walk into the wall without warning.
- the system could assume the camera may have moved/turned, and ask you to reset the chaperone every time.

The Rift isn't particularly suited to room-scale when you think about it.

Maybe the camera has an LED so they can detect each other? (although that wouldn't work for 2 forward cameras, and you wouldn't know which camera moved).
 
Zalusithix

Zalusithix

Member
dumbo said:
AFAICT the vive lighthouses are fixed, so the tracking volume is fixed. Whereas the oculus camera is not fixed, nor is the tracking volume.

Since there's no obvious way to detect whether the camera was turned/moved, there's no particularly good solution for chaperone:
- the system could assume the camera is in exactly the same spot, which may allow the player to walk into the wall without warning.
- the system could assume the camera may have moved/turned, and ask you to reset the chaperone every time.

The Rift isn't particularly suited to room-scale when you think about it.

Maybe the camera has an LED so they can detect each other? (although that wouldn't work for 2 forward cameras, and you wouldn't know which camera moved).
Click to expand...

Simple, albeit inelegant solution to that: Force a reset of the bounds on every startup. Or at least a calibration before you put the headset on. "Stand in corner X, and press Y on the controller."
 
P

pj

Banned
dumbo said:
AFAICT the vive lighthouses are fixed, so the tracking volume is fixed. Whereas the oculus camera is not fixed, nor is the tracking volume.

Since there's no obvious way to detect whether the camera was turned/moved, there's no particularly good solution for chaperone:
- the system could assume the camera is in exactly the same spot, which may allow the player to walk into the wall without warning.
- the system could assume the camera may have moved/turned, and ask you to reset the chaperone every time.

The Rift isn't particularly suited to room-scale when you think about it.

Maybe the camera has an LED so they can detect each other? (although that wouldn't work for 2 forward cameras, and you wouldn't know which camera moved).
Click to expand...

Never thought about that. Might be something where you have to define the bounds of your VR area every time you play.
 
E

elyetis

Member
Cartman86 said:
Sorry for the hyperbole but it would be beyond absurd for Oculus to not implement this system across everything if they are going to sell games that support standing or walking in their store. This should be a standard minimum safety feature for literally everything. Criminal even. I can't imagine they would not implement it.
Click to expand...
Oh I definitely agree that it's something Oculus should be doing, and maybe developer shouldn't try to put their own system so that it force Oculus hand to do it themself.
My point really was that it really should be easy ( as in less than a day of work easy ) to put a chaperone system in their game.

dumbo : the easy answer would be to ask the player if they want to reset or not ( with the ability to not show that message again, and do the reset from the option for people who know their camera won't be moves ).
 
bloodydrake

bloodydrake

Cool Smoke Luke
Sleeping Lesson said:
How is something like Adr1ft going to handle when the player moves around? A lot of that game kind of relies on the player only being able to look around.
Click to expand...

i think its still a seated experience they're not updating for room scale and motion controls.
but thats ok at this point, I'll take that from games that were designed for a seated experience and let them develop their sequels with full room scale support
 
D

Dreams-Visions

Member
M

marc^o^

Nintendo's Pro Bono PR Firm
I hope this is sign of things to come. There has to be a first studio and a follower to have everyone dancing.
 
Zalusithix

Zalusithix

Member
Dreams-Visions said:
Glad they're back to being on the Vive. May might be the best time too, as people will be looking for new experiences. By not launching with all the other games, they have an opportunity at some spotlight.
Click to expand...

Well, there's that, but there's also a large chunk of people that wont be getting their Vive until May anyhow (myself included). Unless HTC pulls a "gotcha" and ships out everything in April, May is still very much launch territory.
 
M

Melchettsmoustache

Member
I posted earlier in this thread that I was thinking about setting up a VR suite. I've been doing a lot of work and managed to pull together a business plan, quotes for the office refit and sourced a gaming rig that fits the bill, even pre order Oculus as well as the Vive. I took my idea to one of my local council fund managers and they're keen (certainly at the outset) to take my entire floor of me for rent to let schools and some social groups get access to it, this should also allow access to government tech funding which should allow me to add a few bells and whistles to the whole thing.

Pretty happy with how it's all going..... Touch wood.
 
S

Sleeping Lesson

Member
artsi said:
IIRC the view resets itself to the center if you move too much.
Click to expand...
Yeah I noticed it does that with the Rift's positional tracking.
bloodydrake said:
i think its still a seated experience they're not updating for room scale and motion controls.
but thats ok at this point, I'll take that from games that were designed for a seated experience and let them develop their sequels with full room scale support
Click to expand...
It's a weird problem, though, where the game may be "intended" to be a seated experience but they can't prevent you from getting up and moving around.
 
bloodydrake

bloodydrake

Cool Smoke Luke
Sleeping Lesson said:
Yeah I noticed it does that with the Rift's positional tracking.

It's a weird problem, though, where the game may be "intended" to be a seated experience but they can't prevent you from getting up and moving around.
Click to expand...

i wouldn't say its a problem, its acknowledging that the vive can provide both a seated or a room scale experience but its at the discretion of the developer..not the user to determine that.
I'm sure all that will happen is..you wave your arms around...nothing happens..you stand up and walk around...nothing happens...you move the controller button you move in game.

I think this is fundamentally what everyone's saying the advantage of the vive is at launch..you can have both types of experiences now
 
K

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Sleeping Lesson said:
How is something like Adr1ft going to handle when the player moves around? A lot of that game kind of relies on the player only being able to look around.
Click to expand...

Sleeping Lesson said:
Yeah I noticed it does that with the Rift's positional tracking.

It's a weird problem, though, where the game may be "intended" to be a seated experience but they can't prevent you from getting up and moving around.
Click to expand...

You can move around also with the Rift, no? Given the nature of the game I think it will ignore the movement in space of the HMD and just work with its position around its own ax. So you can look around. Also it does make more sense to use the motion controls to grab things within the game instead of press a button to grab. That should help the immersion a lot.

If they really want, they could use the motion controls also for moving around in the game somehow. Not by walking, maybe using the controllers as jetpacks or something.
 
bloodydrake

bloodydrake

Cool Smoke Luke
orthy posted this in the comments on steam about the Adr1ft announcement in reguards to room scale

ADR1FT on the Vive will be controlled via Gamepad and Mouse/Keyboard.

The game was very far into the development process before we received devkits and unfortunately, you can't just add motion controls, hands and arms to a game. That requires tons of new work, system rebuilding and animation support. It's essentially a new game.

VR motion control needs to be considered from the very beginning of development and be the central core of the interactive experience. It's not something that can simply happen with an update.

This isn't a negative, though. The ADR1FT VR experience is awesome and you won't be disappointed.
Click to expand...
 
S

Sleeping Lesson

Member
KingSnake said:
You can move around also with the Rift, no? Given the nature of the game I think it will ignore the movement in space of the HMD and just work with its position around its own ax. So you can look around. Also it does make more sense to use the motion controls to grab things within the game instead of press a button to grab. That should help the immersion a lot.

If they really want, they could use the motion controls also for moving around in the game somehow. Not by walking, maybe using the controllers as jetpacks or something.
Click to expand...

Giant Bomb demonstrated this issue on their stream, it was pretty hilarious.

I don't think a good solution is to "limit" the distance the player can move positionally, though. You just have to make it so the player doesn't want to break the game in this way.
 
bloodydrake

bloodydrake

Cool Smoke Luke
Soi-Fong said:
Ooh this a good deal. I think the "DLC Upgrade" for VR is like 10 bucks. The VR version itself is $30 on the Oculus store.
Click to expand...

ya theres no vive support as of yet but I've always wanted to try it in general and for Oculus owners 14bucks for the whole thing is a great deal
 
C

CarbonFire

Member
Sleeping Lesson said:
Giant Bomb demonstrated this issue on their stream, it was pretty hilarious.

I don't think a good solution is to "limit" the distance the player can move positionally, though. You just have to make it so the player doesn't want to break the game in this way.
Click to expand...

Just pause the game and/or blur it out anytime the player leaves the defined vr space for that particular game. Pop up the chaperone system as well so people can reorient/reposition themselves if the game is a seated/non-roomscale experience. Pausing/Blurring the world should be enough to dissuade people from consistently trying to break the game through movement.

You just never want to take away control of the players vision....even if that means they can break the bounds of the game through their movement.
 
S

Sleeping Lesson

Member
CarbonFire said:
Just pause the game and/or blur it out anytime the player leaves the defined vr space for that particular game. Pop up the chaperone system as well so people can reorient/reposition themselves if the game is a seated/non-roomscale experience. Pausing/Blurring the world should be enough to dissuade people from consistently trying to break the game through movement.

You just never want to take away control of the players vision....even if that means they can break the bounds of the game through their movement.
Click to expand...

Exactly, that's more or less what I mean.
 
C

Chairmanchuck

Member
bloodydrake said:
Adr1ft Vive support confirmed for May release

http://steamcommunity.com/games/300060/announcements/detail/820027100183310584

One more checklist game I want to experience on the Vive ...maybe not getting mine till May is gonna work out just fine :)
Click to expand...

Was actually quite clear, that its coming. Adam Orth, after the whole "it might be Oculus exclusive" said, that its coming to other VR HMDs.

I just wonder, why they didnt say it sooner. Do the devs who release an Oculus version have some kind of NDA?
 
O

Odrion

Banned
I got a question for people who used the Rift and Vive: Is there as much of a lack of depth with distance objects as there is in Gear VR?
 
P

plagiarize

Banned
No, because more distant objects get their sense of depth more from parallax and experience than eye seperation. To get parallax cues you need positional tracking. That said, things are still fairly blurry in the distance due to pixel density.
 
R

ruddiger7

Banned
Cartman86 said:
WA, USA person here. Card got charged for Vive. Shows as Processing. I ordered 4 minutes after it went up. I assume my bank would have flagged it already if they were going to right? Funny that I might end up getting my Vive before my Rift.
Click to expand...

I got my fedex shipping notification for the vive lastnight. Definitely beating the rift to delivery.
 
N

Nzyme32

Member
Chairmanchuck said:
Was actually quite clear, that its coming. Adam Orth, after the whole "it might be Oculus exclusive" said, that its coming to other VR HMDs.

I just wonder, why they didnt say it sooner. Do the devs who release an Oculus version have some kind of NDA?
Click to expand...

No idea, but it's infuriating to see that kind of crap with PC stuff
 
N

Nzyme32

Member
marc^o^ said:
I love this Vive ability to mix VR with reality while recording videos with the proper set up.

Look at this Audioshield video: https://youtu.be/FhSsdsu4yIk

It manages to give us an idea of how immersive the experience is. Simply amazing.
Click to expand...

My favourite is still fantastic contraption for this mixed reality stuff. Rather than having to get a green screen, they used another Vive controller attached to a camera as a tracker. Since that extra controller can be mapped to the game world and is set with a fixed position on the camera, you can just overlay whatever you want with perfect accuracy to the player and their controllers:

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/702198215416762370/pu/vid/1280x720/llz49kPFMPtHYzrb.mp4
 
R

Raticus79

Seek victory, not fairness
marc^o^ said:
I love this Vive ability to mix VR with reality while recording videos with the proper set up.

Look at this Audioshield video: https://youtu.be/FhSsdsu4yIk

It manages to give us an idea of how immersive the experience is. Simply amazing.
Click to expand...

They actually have that built into a free Unity plugin. The dev just needs a third Lighthouse controller attached to a camera. Should be more on the way:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/358720/discussions/0/405694031549662100/
 
C

Chairmanchuck

Member
Nzyme32 said:
No idea, but it's infuriating to see that kind of crap with PC stuff
Click to expand...

It is. Btw. I still dont get how there can even be headset exclusive games from a technical point of view.

I mean is it because the Vive uses different drivers than the Oculus? Is it because of the hardware?

I mean there are drivers that make the DS4 look like a Xbox 360 controller on PC, so I wonder if there wont be one that makes the Vive look like a Rift or vice versa.
 
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