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The Last of us: Remastered - A look at Joel's mental framework

Veelk

Banned
Here's a fun fact I learned in a random anthropology class I took way back when: Nearly every culture that exists, when you translate the name that people of that culture use to refer to themselves, you get the basic equivalent of "People" or "true people". This makes absolute sense, as our words are typically derived from more mundane things (for example the word 'true' comes from the word 'tree'). So, when naming themselves, they'd just name themselves 'people', whatever the language they have is. Which is all fine and dandy....until one tribe meets another. When you think of yourselves and those like you as the 'real people', then those other people have to be fake in some way. This is a phenomenon known as 'othering', where you are do not regard a certain type of person as a 'real' person. This is not to say that it was necessarily rooted in hatred or fear of the 'other', but in terms of simple differentiation, if you and your culture is what is a 'real' person, then those who are so different than you can't be 'real' as well, because that would just make no sense. Throughout history, the element of being a 'real' person has taken thousands of different forms throughout the world, whether it's a matter of belonging to a particular tribe, or believing in a particular god, or being of a particular sexuality. This process of 'Othering' is something I hypothesis to be an psychologically adaptational trait that helps suspend empathy for what people need to do. I don't know if it has it's roots in evolution, but I wouldn't be surprised. After all, it's very difficult to kill people, but if your just killing an unperson, then it's no big deal. Having empathy toward people is often regarded as an universal good, but in truth, having empathy toward everyone all the time would render society nonfunctional, or atleast chronically depressed. It's much less of a victory for justice, for example, to put away a murderer when you, while fully sympathizing with the victim, also understand and feel compassion for the murderer and you wish you could have comfort them both somehow. It's easier to just say the murderer is a bastard and be done with it.

With the zombie apocalpyse underway, shelter and resources are limited, and larger scale governmental agents are falling apart. This is a situation where empathy toward your fellow man will fuck you right over. Othering is the bread and butter of anyone who lives in a hostile world like the good folk of Last of Us. Because, lets say, if you are going to survive, you need medicine. However, there is another person who also needs it. Do they need it more? What will happen to them if they don't get it? If you catch yourself thinking these empathetic thoughts, you're already hesitating and your chances of getting that medicine are slimmer. Not just because of external forces (like, if you're racing the other person), but you might decide that that person needs that medicine more than you do and freely give it to them, and die. Empathy can be your murderer, if you let it, so you need to be able to other, so that the question of whether they deserve it more doesn't even come up. Of course the other guy doesn't need the medicine more. Only people can deserve or need stuff like medicine, while unpeople are just moving humanoid objects, and there is no inherent wrong to destroying an object.

Which finally brings us to the Last of Us, particularly Joel. Joel is a fun character. When the game first came out, there was a lot of discussion on Joel and whether he was a monster or a respectable man trying to do the right thing in a world gone wrong. Like, it was all but inescapable, since this was one of the best done examples of character development in all of gaming. It's good to come back after those months of debate and confirm that what I thought then is what I think now. What's that you might ask? Well, read and find out.

I should make one thing very clear: I don't think Joel is a sociopath or suffering from some kind of mental illness that limits his capability for empathy. He has psychological issues, but that's due to trauma, rather than anything inherent. I don't necessarily think he is amoral either. However, it should be noted that he was able to other people before he suffered that trauma. One small, but important scene is in the beginning when Joel, Tommy and Sara are driving to the highway they hope they'll be able to use to escape. As Tommy is driving, a family on the side hails them, hoping to catch a ride. For the record, they have plenty of room to fit 3 more people in. Tommy wants to pull over and help, while Joel orders him to drive on. He says they have a kid, while Joel replies with "So do we". Right there, he othered them. Not because of any particular creed or social deviance, but tribal mentality that would later contribute to his survival. He has nothing against this family, and they probably wouldn't lose anything huge in driving them, and if pressed, he'd probably admit that they deserve to live as much as he does. But they're not his people, so they don't fall under his protection, however little it would cost. And when Sara does die and Joel then has to deal with 20 years of infection, that tribal mentality is only amplified.

Joel is somewhat unique in his mentality, because of all the characters, he pursues it strongest of them all except for perhaps David and Bill. He does everything in his power to frame the things he does in terms of survival. Everything else is 'stuff happening', that is neither right nor wrong nor anyone's fault. The first mark of this is when Tess is finally bitten. Tess began the game essentially as a female version of Joel, maybe even moreso. Joel was widely known and feared by most, but Tess was known and feared by all. But when she realizes that she's going to die, she makes it her duty to have Joel guide Ellie to the Fireflies. "Guess what, we're shitty people, Joel. It's been that way for a long time." To which Joel insists, "No, we are survivors..." Tess was a survivor, but she acknowledged that to attain that survival, she had to give up basic human decency to do so. Later on, there is a similar conversation with Tommy. Joel, as he's trying to get Tommy to take Ellie off his hands, remarks that not doing so isn't a way to repay him for what he's done in the past. Tommy angrily tells him that all he has from those days are nightmares, to which Joel practically screams at him "I helped us survive!", to which Tommy said it wasn't worth it, and Joel doesn't reply to that. This contrast is what leads Tommy to join the fireflies, who are a group of idealists who hope to do good in the world, and presumably the reason he left were because the fireflies were not as advertised, and only found happiness in creating a family here, where they boast about being able to recreate a piece of civilization, not just because they have a working generator, but also because they have people who are compassionate and kind toward one another.

This habitual reframe of everything happening into a series of amoral, darwinistic incidents is reflected in how he deals with grief. For the vast majority of the game, he avoids the subject of his daughter like the plague. Tommy offered to give him a photo of Sara, but he declined it, because reminding him of her brings back his strongest center of empathy, the one person who was the most personest person who ever personed. Joel can detach and survive as long as he doesn't think about anything meaningful. It's not that it's impossible for him to form connections, but it's difficult. For example, he connected with Tess, but when she died, he just didn't acknowledge her, not even when Bill badmouthed her to his face. A clearer example (since we see the whole progress from strangers to friends) is his connection to Henry. He and Henry were so very similar to one another, but when Henry crossed the despair horizon and shot himself, months later, Joel still refuses to acknowledge what happened. How unhealthy this is is evident with Ellie, who tries to mourn the loss of her friend, but Joel just shuts her up by writing the whole thing off as "shit happens".

For the record, it's clear that this is a strong coping mechanism. Joel and Ellie come across a dead body of a person who killed themselves, and he made a remark about how difficult it was when ellie said it was the 'easy way out'. This implies that Joel was suicidal at one point too. This makes his coping mechanism make a strong amount of sense. The pain of his lost loved ones aches strongly, but he doesn't have the nerve to kill himself like wants to, so he needs to find a way to avoid the pain. So he just avoids it, refusing to acknowledge not just that the people he cared about died, but how they died. Because thinking about the reason they are all dead requires him to look beyond his amoral, detached framework of survival. Them being bitten by clickers might just be an unfortunate accident of the universe, but that's not what happened. Sara was shot by a soldier whose government was more concerned with containing a threat than protecting innocents. Tess died because she wanted to do something good for humanity with her final breathe. Henry died because he failed in his duty as a brother. Even Bill, who didn't die, is deeply hurt by the fact that the one man who he loved hated his guts specifically because he was purely survival oriented, as Joel strives to be.

So....here comes Ellie.

I think people who just write her off as being Joel's substitute daughter aren't wrong, but they undervalue that statement. Everything I described about how he regards people above is how he initially regarded Ellie, with coldness and indifference, so I won't go over that. What stands out more is the contrast he holds in the latter chapters, particularly Spring, where they've bonded enough to have him be openly affectionate. He responds to questions about his past with more willingness to talk about Sara, finally accepting that photo of her that he rejected from Tommy. Consider what this is doing to Joel. Whereas before, he found the memories of his past to be so painful as to flinch away at the mere mention of their names, he now is able to speak on them. What is happening, here, is that Joel is finally learning to move beyond basic animalistic survival. His life isn't just an organism fighting to continue breathing, it has meaning. And because it does, he can acknowledge the meaning of the life of others. This is why he now takes much more of an interest into the personal happiness of Ellie, rather than just her physical wellbeing.

But that isn't to say that his ability to Other just up and left. You don't just unlearn something like that, and when the fireflies find him and put in him predator situation, all of that comes back, which brings us back to that age old debate: Was it right for Joel to save Ellie at the cost of humanity. For me, this debate always had multiple facets, due to the question of whether the fireflies even can do it or whether one life is worth the rest of the worlds. However, those things always seemed irrelevant from Joel's perspective to me. It's an interesting question, no doubt, but Joel isn't thinking about the moral right to life or consent when they're talking about Ellie dying. When Marlene tells him how it's gonna be, his response isn't "Are you insane, wtf" or "You can't do that to a little girl, your own daughter!"

When confronted with the situation of his daughter dying, he says "Find someone else!" He's indifferent to the idea of a little girl being murdered for community purposes, he's just opposed to it being his little girl. He can't 'other' Ellie anymore, she's too close to him, so his first response is just to find some other Ellie that he doesn't have a personal connection with. That's unfeasiable, obviously, so his next mission is to have all the other fireflies die. He doesn't have anything against the rest of the world, but the rest of the world isn't part of his tribe, while Ellie is. And it is through that survival framework that he is able to choose Ellie over everyone else. It might be that he would agree that the rest of the world deserves life, but it's not about what anyone deserves, it's about protecting whats his. He and Ellie (really) are the Last of Us, but what does that make the Rest of Them? The other survivors, the cannibals, the fireflies, the government? The last of us refers to the last real people, as far as Joel is concerned, himself and Ellie, plus a few others if he's feeling generous, but no more. Everyone else is just an other.

Man, this game. I could probably write as much of an entry on other characters, and I could probably write even more on Joel alone, but I don't want to surpass the number of allowed characters in a post to do so.

Edit: Goddammit, can a mod move this to the game section?
 

NeoGiff

Member
Marvellous post. A lot of this has certainly gone though my head since playing (and replaying) the game, but you've outlined it a lot more clearly than I ever could. I would much rather discuss this than the simplistic "save Ellie or save the world" argument - not that its simplicity is inherently wrong or inferior.

Is there a synopsis?

A synopsis would completely defeat the purpose of this well-structured essay.
 

Handy Fake

Member
I do wonder what will happen when Ellie learns the truth about what Joel did to the Fireflies.

I think she knows, she's just happy to pretend not to. She's just as entrenched in the"Us vs The World" dynamic as Joel is and I think they're both better people for it.
 

Veelk

Banned
She does?!

She woke up in a hospital gown in the back seat of a car, Joel nervously driving away. I don't think she knows that he slaughtered them all, but his lie is pretty easy to see through. If it were true they'd have let them stay and gear up atleast.

I was originally going to make a similar analysis to ellie, but the Joel piece got long enough already and I still had more I could say about him, so I just cut it short.
 

Jobbs

Banned
I never was on "team monster". I identified with Joel quite a bit and felt as though I'd have done the same thing.

Who would give up their child - or any child under their care - for a *chance* at a cure (the whole Fireflies thing seemed shaky to me and Marlene didn't seem stable, as indicated by how they handled the situation) to some disease? I don't think anyone would.
 
Awww yisss a veelk wall of text thread on TLoU. This is what was missing on my life. I love your critical thinking and analysis of stuff, so seeing you feel so strongly about The Last of Us only reinforces my opinion about it.
This is probably some confirmation bias btw.
Folks that say a one liner about how TLoU's story is mediocre and go on about how it should have been a movie should read this thread. I know they wont but they should. I read it all and there's nothing to add unfortunately since i think you nailed the 'truth' of his character.

Edit: veelk you should totally do a Ellie one.
 

Veelk

Banned
I never was on "team monster". I identified with Joel quite a bit and felt as though I'd have done the same thing.

Who would give up their child for a *chance* at a cure (the whole Fireflies thing seemed shaky to me and Marlene didn't seem stable, as indicated by how they handled the situation) to some disease? I don't think anyone would.
On the contrary, not everyone values children, not even their own. But simply attributing Joels protectiveness to paternal instinct undercuts his character as much as trying to write him off as a one dimensional monster. Joel is not just being an ordinary parent when he goes on a murder spree for ellie.
Edit: veelk you should totally do a Ellie one.
I might. I'll probably have LoU stuck in my head for the next week or so, and ellie is just as compelling a character for it. Not to mention the game play itself warrants analysis.
 
Wow, what a great post OP! I think you are definitely right when it comes to Joel''s character and motivations. I found it particularly interesting how you tied his survivalist mentality to other characters like Tess, Bill, and Henry. You are right, the common thread between them all is that they are willing to survive or ensure the survival of those close to them by any means necessary. Honestly, I feel like that is the only reason they are able to trust each other and work together. Someone like Joel would never have partnered up with Tess, sought help from Bill, or worked together with Henry if they didn't share the same mindset as himself, as then they would be unreliable in his eyes.
In fact, I feel like the moment where Henry abandons Joel to the hunters is the moment where Joel is assured of his ability to survive. Once he gets over his rage at the beach, he never once questions Henry again.
 

Jobbs

Banned
On the contrary, not everyone values children, not even their own. But simply attributing Joels protectiveness to paternal instinct undercuts his character as much as trying to write him off as a one dimensional monster. Joel is not just being an ordinary parent when he goes on a murder spree for ellie.

I might. I'll probably have LoU stuck in my head for the next week or so, and ellie is just as compelling a character for it.

I meant anyone -- You know, among the decent and civilized.

I thought the game made it clear that Ellie had become Joel's surrogate child. I think you're overanalysing it.
 

Veelk

Banned
I meant anyone -- You know, among the decent and civilized.

I thought the game made it clear that Ellie had become Joel's surrogate child. I think you're overanalysing it.
Civility and decency are counterproductive to survival, and Joel has long since abandoned them. As I discussed in the part with ellie. He's okay with a child being murdered for a cure, just not his child. Civility and decency are not what are motivating him here.
 
Great post opie.

I only just recently finished TLoU myself, clocking in at 47 hours. I'm still in the process of digesting it all.

Your post was particularly pleasurable to read because everything is still fresh in my head.
 

Jobbs

Banned
Civility and decency are counterproductive to survival, and Joel has long since abandoned them. As I discussed in the part with ellie. He's okay with a child being murdered for a cure, just not his child. Civility and decency are not what are motivating him here.

In my mind you're over analyzing. Neil Druckmann has spoken a lot about this and the story and the themes and his goals with them and I just don't get the feeling he had all of this in mind when he wrote the characters. He often intends things to be taken at face value and has said as much - Though I'm sure he'd be happy to hear the interpretation.

He has talked about the ending choice and how it was a decision that would be made differently by parents than non parents.
 
Civility and decency are counterproductive to survival, and Joel has long since abandoned them. As I discussed in the part with ellie. He's okay with a child being murdered for a cure, just not his child. Civility and decency are not what are motivating him here.

Joel and Ellie's relationship is more complicated than Father/surrogate child.
Joel's natural daughter died in his arms after he failed to protect her (surely his feelings on the matter) and Ellie is his chance at forgiving himself.
It's an oversimplification to classify their relationship in simpler terms.
 

Veelk

Banned
In my mind you're over analyzing. Neil Druckmann has spoken a lot about this and the story and the themes and his goals with them and I just don't get the feeling he had all of this in mind when he wrote the characters. He often intends things to be taken at face value and has said as much - Though I'm sure he'd be happy to hear the interpretation.

He has talked about the ending choice and how it was a decision that would be made differently by parents than non parents.

I'm not saying paternal feelings didn't play a part, just not decency or civility. Being a parent isn't a Carte Blanche that let's you do whatever you want as long as it's in the name of protecting your child. It's not enough to just say that because it's more complex than that and overanalysing is a useless soundbite that's anti intellectual in purpose. You can disagree with my analysis, but dismissing it under the blanket term that says my evidence is not valid is a weak argument.
 

Jobbs

Banned
I'm not saying paternal feelings didn't play a part, just not decency or civility. Being a parent isn't a Carte Blanche that let's you do whatever you want as long as it's in the name of protecting your child. It's not enough to just say that because it's more complex than that and overanalysing is a useless soundbite that's anti intellectual in purpose. You can disagree with my analysis, but dismissing it under the blanket term that says my evidence is not valid is a weak argument.

I thought the story and motivations were cast very simply and boldly.

- Joel loses daughter in his arms, failing to protect her.

- Joel meets Ellie and is immediately reminded of his daughter (notice how he looks at his watch after he has his first nice exchange with Ellie)

- Ellie fully becomes Joel's surrogate daughter during Fall

- The story comes full circle and Joel decides he'd rather let the world burn than let it [failing to protect his child] happen again

Anything else you read into it I think you're projecting, which is fine, and which I think Neil would welcome. But I do think you're overanalyzing ;)
 

autoduelist

Member
Pretty much nailed it.

My only two [related] comments:

You say:
"Sara was shot by a soldier whose government was more concerned with containing a threat than protecting innocents."

I think you're misstating this slightly, and in doing so, missing a very important link between the beginning and end of the story. That is, in 'containing that threat' and killing Sara, that government [and the soldier] were trying to save humanity... and to do so, they needed to kill Sara [and anyone else trying to escape any quarantined zones].

Why is this important? Because it's exactly the same issue Joel faces when you asked "Was it right for Joel to save Ellie at the cost of humanity?"

Solider -- kill the escaping girl [Sara], and you might save humanity [by preventing the spread of infection].
Joel/Fireflys -- kill the girl [Ellie], and you might save humanity [by finding a cure for infection].

And that's the twist -- If you're the type of person that thinks Joel should have let them have Ellie for the potential saving of humanity, then that's the same line of thinking that justifies killing the innocent Sara. And as we all know, killing Sara didn't save the world. It didn't even help. It was just one more unnecessary killing. That's the same line of thinking that took Sara from Joel, and now you want him to lose Ellie too? No f'ing way.

[note- there isn't a chance in hell I'd let them have her]
 

zsynqx

Member
I'm not saying paternal feelings didn't play a part, just not decency or civility. Being a parent isn't a Carte Blanche that let's you do whatever you want as long as it's in the name of protecting your child. It's not enough to just say that because it's more complex than that and overanalysing is a useless soundbite that's anti intellectual in purpose. You can disagree with my analysis, but dismissing it under the blanket term that says my evidence is not valid is a weak argument.

Dude, I reckon you will really enjoy this video. Druckmann talking about writing and developing the Last of Us. A lot of good info about the story and potential motivations of characters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le6qIz7MjSk
 

Matt

Member
Who would give up their child - or any child under their care - for a *chance* at a cure (the whole Fireflies thing seemed shaky to me and Marlene didn't seem stable, as indicated by how they handled the situation) to some disease? I don't think anyone would.

Joel could know without a doubt that killing Ellie would lead to a cure, and he still would have done what he did. He just doses't give a shit.
 
Dude, I reckon you will really enjoy this video. Druckmann talking about writing and developing the Last of Us. A lot of good info about the story and potential motivations of characters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le6qIz7MjSk

Also gives a pretty significant answer for how to interpret the finale (or at least the original intention). I watched that when it first released and loved it. Highly recommended for fans of the game.
 

Veelk

Banned
Why is this important? Because it's exactly the same issue Joel faces when you asked "Was it right for Joel to save Ellie at the cost of humanity?"

Solider -- kill the escaping girl [Sara], and you might save humanity [by preventing the spread of infection].
Joel/Fireflys -- kill the girl [Ellie], and you might save humanity [by finding a cure for infection].

And that's the twist -- If you're the type of person that thinks Joel should have let them have Ellie for the potential saving of humanity, then that's the same line of thinking that justifies killing the innocent Sara. And as we all know, killing Sara didn't save the world. It didn't even help. It was just one more unnecessary killing. That's the same line of thinking that took Sara from Joel, and now you want him to lose Ellie too? No f'ing way.

[note- there isn't a chance in hell I'd let them have her]

I caught the bookends as well. The game makes it very clear in multiple ways that the fireflies incident is a repeat of the opening of the game, what with how Joel is carrying her away from danger in his arms.

What I dislike about the question is that it frames the situation as "save girl" vs "save humanity". The girl IS humanity, to Joel, while the rest of the people of the world aren't. That was by large the whole argument I was making. The better framing of this is that the soldiers and the fireflies want to save the majority human population by shooting the girl, but humanity is an abstract concept of humanistic value, not a tangible thing, and very subjective. To Joel, everyone who isn't part of his 'tribe' is not humanity, they're just people, and he has few issues with them dying. Joel, as he can see it, is saving humanity by saving Ellie, because Ellie is the only real person left in the world. He's othered everyone else, or is immediately ready to.

I don't think it matters whether I agree with Joel that Ellie should or should not have been saved, because the point of characters like these isn't getting the player to agree or dispute them, it's about getting the player to understand them. My understanding of what Joel did what he did for reasons I outlined in the OP, and whether I agree with them or not isn't meaningful to me.


Dude, I reckon you will really enjoy this video. Druckmann talking about writing and developing the Last of Us. A lot of good info about the story and potential motivations of characters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le6qIz7MjSk

Really good stuff, and it gave me some food for thought regarding the ongoing Ellie essay in my head. He says a lot of stuff that I've heard my own creative writing teachers tell me, regarding 'write honestly' and such. But the most valuable piece is to understand where it came from. That original idea where only women were zombies was...well, he admits it himself. Highly misogynistic. I already know that the prototypes of a story are almost always highly different from the final product, but this highlights it especially how far an idea can come.

Edit: there is a question towards the end about the Kill doctors scene. I don't have much to say about it, but I find it fascinating that people who agree that the fireflies were in the wrong hesitated in killing them. After all, they were equally culpable to trying to dissect Ellie as the soldiers. As a matter of fact, they were the ones directly doing it, and certainly not against their will, going by the records. In fact, if they didn't want to do it, all they'd have to do is inform (or misinform) Marlene that there was another way. They were the experts, after all, what could the rest of the organization do to dissuade them?

This is a unique situation as it is the players who are contradicting their reasoning rather than Joel. Joel in this case is nuetral to the doctors deaths, treating them like any other enemy. Many players were conflicted however. I feel like this is like that thought experiment, where people would use utilitarian reasoning to use an indirect action to save the most amount of people by killing a smaller amount, but would not do so if they had to play a more direct role. Something like that anyway, where they classify soldier's as different than doctors, even though they are equally contributing to the action that they find morally reprehensible.
 

Oxn

Member
Great post opie.

I only just recently finished TLoU myself, clocking in at 47 hours. I'm still in the process of digesting it all.

Your post was particularly pleasurable to read because everything is still fresh in my head.

I hope all those hours mean you beat it on grounded mode.

I did, and it was some of the most frustrating yet happy times of my gaming life.
 

Veelk

Banned
I hope all those hours mean you beat it on grounded mode.

I did, and it was some of the most frustrating yet happy times of my gaming life.

I ain't even trying that bullshit. I hate it when games are frustrating to the point of stupidity. I already find some of the encounters in the game over the top, I don't need to amp it up. A lot of the fights wouldn't be different from how I played them out (I stealth whenever possible), but the enemy rushes would just be obnoxious.

I played it on Hard with Listen mode off. I feel that was the exact sweet spot I needed. I struggled with finding ammo through the whole game (I spent maybe 80% of the game with neither clip of either of my pistols full, never capped out at any ammo, hell, I had no arrows for my bow until way after Bill's town) and was forced to play smart, and the one time I tried to just go all rambo (near the end of the game, where I realized there was no point in saving anything up anymore), I barely survived despite putting all I had into it. I MIGHT try Survivor someday, but I don't think I will because I don't want to start from scratch again. I want my new game+. But I'm not even touching Grounded.

Edit: Honestly, what I really like about my playthrough is that because every bullet counted, I felt I had to make a more concious choice to make every bullet count. As a result, I ONLY shot when I felt reasonably sure that I would hit something. As a result, my hit/miss ratio is a 76% for hit, which is crazy to me, because every other game it's like in the mid 30's.

Edit 2: Also, I added a little ludonarrative cohesion (whats the opposite of dissonance) by going rambo at the firefly headquarters. The entire game, Joel fought super carefully and stealthily. I thought it was appropriate to his character that this is the one point where he would be more reckless and crazy in his fighting style. He still used cover and everything, he wasn't stupid, but he could have been a lot less brutal and more efficient than he was, which in my interpretation reflected how addled he was by the idea of losing Ellie again.
 

Oxn

Member
I ain't even trying that bullshit. I hate it when games are frustrating to the point of stupidity. I already find some of the encounters in the game over the top, I don't need to amp it up. A lot of the fights wouldn't be different from how I played them out (I stealth whenever possible), but the enemy rushes would just be obnoxious.

I played it on Hard with Listen mode off. I feel that was the exact sweet spot I needed. I struggled with finding ammo through the whole game (I spent maybe 80% of the game with neither clip of either of my pistols full, never capped out at any ammo, hell, I had no arrows for my bow until way after Bill's town) and was forced to play smart, and the one time I tried to just go all rambo (near the end of the game, where I realized there was no point in saving anything up anymore), I barely survived despite putting all I had into it. I MIGHT try Survivor someday, but I don't think I will because I don't want to start from scratch again. I want my new game+. But I'm not even touching Grounded.

I only did it cause i loved the game, but i cant even think about it anymore. Some of those spots were just brutal, like the sniping section, and the winter sections.

Funny thing is i went straight from easy mode to grounded.
 

Veelk

Banned
I only did it cause i loved the game, but i cant even think about it anymore. Some of those spots were just brutal, like the sniping section, and the winter sections.

Funny thing is i went straight from easy mode to grounded.

For me, zombie swarms are always the worst and least pleasant parts of the game. They break the immersion for me more than anything else in the game. In terms of gameplay, my style is more suited to stealthing and taking on enemies one by one and the advanced zombies die really hard, so I wasn't a fan of finding a horde. But in terms of story, a lot of the encounters make little sense.

Most notably is the zombie encounter where David and Ellie work together. They are in a small hut that has been boarded up, and they're quiet. The Infected have poor eyesight (even early infected) and can't hear people over a countertop, let alone a whole house, so how they hell would they know? And why would they travel in swarms in an open field like that? I can understand when they've been trapped in one area for a while, but anything outside should not have a large group of them sicne nothing indicates they have a herd mentality. Plus they're not even really undead zombies like in most other media, so they would totally be pervious to the cold weather. But it's almost worse in enclosed areas, where I go out of my way to clear a building, but when I get to an item that instigates the next checkpoint, the zombies are coming up from behind me. I hate that stuff, and it's why I don't like the zombie genre in general.

Bah. Necessary evils for engaging gameplay I guess, but stuff like that annoys the hell out of me.
 

Oxn

Member
For me, zombie swarms are always the worst and least pleasant parts of the game. They break the immersion for me more than anything else in the game. In terms of gameplay, my style is more suited to stealthing and taking on enemies one by one and the advanced zombies die really hard, so I wasn't a fan of finding a horde. But in terms of story, a lot of the encounters make little sense.

Most notably is the zombie encounter where David and Ellie work together. They are in a small hut that has been boarded up, and they're quiet. The Infected have poor eyesight (even early infected), so how they hell would they know? And why would they travel in swarms in an open field like that? I can understand when they've been trapped in one area for a while, but anything outside should not have a large group of them sicne nothing indicates they have a herd mentality. Plus they're not even really undead zombies like in most other media, so they would totally be pervious to the cold weather. But it's almost worse in enclosed areas, where I go out of my way to clear a building, but when I get to an item that instigates the next checkpoint, the zombies are coming up from behind me. I hate that stuff, and it's why I don't like the zombie genre in general.

Bah. Necessary evils for engaging gameplay I guess, but stuff like that annoys the hell out of me.

You would hate the walking dead lol
 
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