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The Legend of Zelda Community Thread: Timelines, Retreads and Colors Oh My
- Thread starter BY2K
- Start date
The Broken Ska Record
Member
I hope this is a good place to put this, but I drew this picture of Link on a monitor at GameStop about 5 years ago.
Crumpet Trumpet
Banned
I remember in Wind Waker, Jabun and the Deku Tree and other people made a big deal about Link not being a descendant of the actual hero, and he had to ~prove~ himself at the Tower of the Gods, so I dunno.apana said:
Yes, it is entirely inaccurate, lol. They games take place one after another, followed by a linked ending. They can technically take place in either order, but Seasons is always listed before Ages in any official media, and the official manga (while not canon to the games in any way) tells the story of Seasons first, so there's more evidence for Seasons taking place before Ages.Htown said:
No, Ganondorf is a Gerudo from the desert. Ganondorf is just a normal Gerudo male. There is nothing in the games that ever suggests that Ganondorf is born as the demon lord Ganon. Ganondorf only ever becomes Ganon after obtaining the trident or the Triforce of Power (or, in one case, the entire Triforce).RagnarokX said:
And the Four Sword series does in fact take place in the same timeline as the rest of the Zelda franchise. Unless you don't believe the official timeline that Nintendo follows... But in that case the timeline placement of the Four Sword games shouldn't matter to you at all.
When you think about it, it's really not that crazy at all. For example, in my timeline, Ganon isBurntPork said:
the ancient demon that was sealed within the trident from FSA, which FSA Ganondorf awakened by stealing the trident. That Ganondorf became the ancient demon Ganon, and was then defeated by Link and sealed in the Four Sword. GBA ALttP shows us that sometime prior to ALttP, the Four Sword was moved to the Sacred Realm in the Place of the Four Sword, where the seal eventually broke and Ganon's spirit was presumably released. If these events happened after FSA and before OoT (which may be more likely that you might think, especially given that the Four Sword's seal was already broken twice before not too long after Vaati was sealed in it), then Ganon's spirit would have been free to roam the Sacred Realm before the events of OoT. And what else is in the Sacred Ream at that time? The Triforce! Ganon's spirit could have fused itself with the Triforce of Power, unable to use its power without a physical form, and waited there for a host to obtain it for him. That host would be none other than OoT Ganondorf. Upon touching the Triforce, Ganondorf receives the Triforce of Power, along with the spirit of Ganon. And then Ganondorf is sealed in one timeline, and stopped before ever touching the Triforce in the other, blah blah blah...
It's certainly not any more crazy than the fact that there are multiple Links, Zeldas, Tingles, Eponas, Malons, Impas, etc. throughout Hyrule's history. And if all of those are allowed to exist in the Zelda universe, what's stopping there from being multiple Ganondorfs?
And yes, FSA is confirmed to be a direct sequel to FS, taking place not too long after it and featuring the same Link (or Links, I should say).
Well, the most obvious evidence is that Ganon(dorf) dies many more times that he is ever shown to be revived in the series.Boney said:
TLoZ: Killed; ALttP; Killed, OoT: Sealed, comes back in TWW and TP, where he is killed in both; OoS/OoA: Revived, but killed again; FSA: Sealed, but is later shown to have broken out.
In addition to that, there is also some unused dialog from Ganondorf in TP that was left over on the disc. This text was to be Ganondorf's final words. You may recognize the very last sentence, which made the cut and does appear in the game. Here's what Ganondorf was originally supposed to say:
Those words basically outright confirm the existence of multiple Ganondorfs. And, yes, I am very aware that these words didn't make it into the final game, and because of that they are in no way canon. However, this shows us that this is what the developers at one point intended Ganondorf to say. And the fact that it remains in the game's data says a lot. This wasn't just an idea that was tossed around early in development and shot down, this is something that was nearly in the finished game but was cut very late during production for whatever reason (probably because they decided it would be best to keep Ganondorf's final words short and simple, or something like that). Point is, this shows intent. This tells us that the multiple Ganondorf idea is indeed supported by Nintendo.Ganondorf said:
Also, the 3D games are not the only games to have a confirmed timeline placement. TAoL is the confirmed direct sequel to TLoZ, both of which are confirmed to take place sometime after ALttP on the same timeline, with LA being the confirmed direct sequel to ALttP. And then FS is confirmed to take place before OoT (though many people choose to disregard this for whatever reason, or they're just not informed), with FSA being its confirmed direct sequel, and TMC being the prequel to both. And I assume everyone here who knows anything about the Zelda timeline knows where the 3D games fit in. So they confirmed timeline should look like this:
　　　　　　　　　　/TWW/PHST (Adult Timeline)
TMCFS/FSAOoT
　　　　　　　　　　\MMTP (Child Timeline)
And then we have this other little piece of the timeline that's confirmed:
ALttP/LA?TLoZ/TAoL
Since ST features a completely different Hyrule than the one seen in OoT, FS, FSA, TMC, and TP (and TLoZ, (part of) TAoL, and ALttP because those Hyrules are based on TLoZ/ALttP's), and since
the Master Sword is stuck in Ganondorf's stone body far under the sea
　　　　　　　　　　/TWW/PHST (Adult Timeline)
TMCFS/FSAOoT
　　　　　　　　　　\MMTP?ALttP/LA?TLoZ/TAoL (Child Timeline)
After that, the only games that don't have a concrete placement in the timeline are OoS and OoA. For reasons similar to those above, it's most likely that these games take place on the Child Timeline as well. They could take place between TP and ALttP, between LA and TLoZ, or after TAoL. I find it most likely that they take place either between LA and TLoZ or after TAoL, and in my personal timeline I choose the latter.
Then there's Skyward Sword. While it's confirmed to take place before OoT, neither Aonuma nor Miyamoto have said anything about its placement in the timeline in relation to the Four Sword series. However, given the little bit of the game's plot that we know about so far, it's pretty clear that this game has to predate every other currently released game. So, put everything together, and this is what you get:
　　　　　　　　　　　　/TWW/PHST (Adult Timeline)
SSTMCFS/FSAOoT
　　　　　　　　　　　　\MMTP?ALttP/LA?TLoZ/TAoL (Child Timeline)
Just stick the Oracle games wherever you feel they fit best, and BAM! That's really all there is to be done if you take everything that's already been confirmed into consideration. The Zelda timeline really isn't as complicated as people make it out to be. Well, understanding how some games connect may be, but piecing together what's confirmed and what's not is extremely easy, because most of the work has already been done for you!
Thank you! I think you'll really enjoy my video explanation, then. Basically what it will consist of is me explaining the above, and my theories as to how all of the games connect that way. I'd like to think that it's actually quite interesting. But that may only apply to super hardcore Zelda nerds like me, lol.effzee said:
shadyspace
Banned
I really should stop reading this MM creepypasta so late at night.
Electivirus
Member
shadyspace said:
You shouldn't have done that.
SteveWinwood
Member
POST IT POST ITshadyspace said:
shadyspace
Banned
Video game creeypasta freaks me out so much :/
Dr.Palutena
Member
meh creepy pasta always creep me out until that one paragraph where they go too far and i just go :/
friskykillface
Banned
I've read a bit of that before, still makes me 0_o
I will read the whole thing now D:
I will read the whole thing now D:
gatotsu911
Member
Even more than the series itself, the Zelda continuity is in desperate need of a reboot. It is really just getting ridiculous.
The Broken Ska Record
Member
There isn't continuity. If there is, it's ULTRA minimal and only references other games. The way it should be done.gatotsu911 said:
Professor Beef
Banned
At the very least, there's continuity between OoT, Majora, Wind Waker, and Twilight Princess.The Broken Ska Record said:
mattiewheels
And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'
I started to play WW again....what were they thinking with the sailing parts? Destination is so far out and absolutely nothing interesting happens in-between. Well, you can jump the shark I guess.
TheCongressman1
Member
Professor Beef said:
Well, and SS.
Professor Beef
Banned
Sometimes I feel like the only person in the world who loved sailing in Wind Waker.mattiewheels said:
That too.TheCongressman1 said:
ThatObviousUser
ὠαἴÏÏιÏÏÎ¿Ï Ïαá¿Ï εἶ
gatotsu911 said:
How is it getting ridiculous? The 3D games all have a clear connection. The older 2D games cause some problems, but they don't have enough emphasis on story that it's all that important they fit.
You want a series that needs a reboot? Resident Evil. Zelda though? No way.
Professor Beef
Banned
Resident Evil should be rebooted into a survival/comedy/horror.Andrex said:
Professor Beef
Banned
Codeblue said:
Professor Beef
Banned
How do you like the crimson-heads?Anth0ny said:
Hobbestetrician
Member
Yeah, that got me too.Codeblue said:
Count me in the 'loved sailing in Wind Waker' group, as well. It actually felt like a grand journey.
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
LOL.Codeblue said:
Nah. My boyfriend and I were just talking about TWW sailing today, actually. Imagine if the theme was not very good or if it was boring... I wouldn't like sailing much at all if that were the case.Professor Beef said:
I liked watching stuff come up in the distance, and watching the sunrise/sunset. Heck, I even liked looking up at the starry sky! I'm not saying that sailing is perfect, because it isn't. The landmasses were pretty sparse (for narrative reasons) and not very plentiful, and the sense of wonder loses its effects on subsequent playthroughs. And I can see people's problems with changing the wind direction. I can certainly see the other reasons why people disliked it a lot.
Some of the stuff you wrote is pretty similar to the way I think the timeline is laid out (the actual timeline you drew out is pretty similar to mine). Very interested to see what you come up with.Tyeforce said:
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
I still think trying to jam any part of the Four Sword / ALttP saga anywhere before OoT is just asking for trouble. I honestly think the "Link's first adventure" line from TMC (that was removed from the US version, by the way) was a scripting goof. Perhaps Capcom originally intended for this to be the case, but I believe Nintendo has retconned that particular placement. TMC uses the same writing system as WW, for instance, something that canonically cannot have taken place prior to OoT.
I also think that TMC/FS/FSA and their aftermath were retconned into the backstory of ALttP. OoT was originally meant to be that backstory, but its own story changed in development and didn't fit anymore. When the GBA version of ALttP came out, it featured the Palace of the Four Sword, basically implying that ALttP Ganon and FSA Ganon are one and the same.
For reference, my timeline is built from the following basic pieces:
.................WW/PH->ST
.............../
SS->OoT<
...............\
................MM->TP
(The timeline of the 3D games as confirmed by Aonuma et al)
TMC->FS->FSA->ALttP (The FS Saga has replaced OoT as the backstory of ALttP as of the GBA release of the game)
ALttP/OoS/OoA/LA (I think all four games feature the same Link. The connection was made explicit in BS Zelda and Ancient Stone Tablets)
ALttP->LoZ->AoL (ALttP was intended as a prequel to the original LoZ)
Join all these together and you get:
.................WW/PH->ST->TMC->FS->FSA->ALttP/OoS/OoA/LA->LoZ->AoL
.............../
SS->OoT<
...............\
................MM->TP
But I'm also willing to accept the logic behind:
.................WW/PH->ST
.............../
SS->OoT<
...............\
................MM->TP->TMC->FS->FSA->ALttP/OoS/OoA/LA->LoZ->AoL
The Tingle games (sort of) follow the same timeline, but in that case, it's a little more complicated because the presence of the Legend of the Fairy and the fact that Phantom Ganon wields a sword made by Zubora and Gabora in WW confirms that creatures and objects can and do travel between parallel timelines. This means that either a Tingle
must have done so at some point between MM and WW.
MM->WW->FPTRR/TBF->PH->ST->TMC->FSA->OoA->RTBToL
The Tingle games show and hint at a few plot points that you might otherwise miss:
- Tingles aren't born, they're made. In FPTRR,
- The Great Deku Tree you met in Wind Waker
- The Great Deku Tree succeeds in joining all the islands of the Great Sea together. During the events of FPTRR they have coalesced into four continents
- The land you visit in FPTRR is very likely to be the site of the future kingdoms of Labrynna and Holodrum (i.e. you meet members of the races seen in OoS/OoA who aren't found in any other game like the Salona/Subrosians and the Piratians).
- So basically, WW, FPTRR, OoS and OoA all take place in roughly the same place
I also think that TMC/FS/FSA and their aftermath were retconned into the backstory of ALttP. OoT was originally meant to be that backstory, but its own story changed in development and didn't fit anymore. When the GBA version of ALttP came out, it featured the Palace of the Four Sword, basically implying that ALttP Ganon and FSA Ganon are one and the same.
For reference, my timeline is built from the following basic pieces:
.................WW/PH->ST
.............../
SS->OoT<
...............\
................MM->TP
(The timeline of the 3D games as confirmed by Aonuma et al)
TMC->FS->FSA->ALttP (The FS Saga has replaced OoT as the backstory of ALttP as of the GBA release of the game)
ALttP/OoS/OoA/LA (I think all four games feature the same Link. The connection was made explicit in BS Zelda and Ancient Stone Tablets)
ALttP->LoZ->AoL (ALttP was intended as a prequel to the original LoZ)
Join all these together and you get:
.................WW/PH->ST->TMC->FS->FSA->ALttP/OoS/OoA/LA->LoZ->AoL
.............../
SS->OoT<
...............\
................MM->TP
But I'm also willing to accept the logic behind:
.................WW/PH->ST
.............../
SS->OoT<
...............\
................MM->TP->TMC->FS->FSA->ALttP/OoS/OoA/LA->LoZ->AoL
The Tingle games (sort of) follow the same timeline, but in that case, it's a little more complicated because the presence of the Legend of the Fairy and the fact that Phantom Ganon wields a sword made by Zubora and Gabora in WW confirms that creatures and objects can and do travel between parallel timelines. This means that either a Tingle
or Uncle Rupee
MM->WW->FPTRR/TBF->PH->ST->TMC->FSA->OoA->RTBToL
The Tingle games show and hint at a few plot points that you might otherwise miss:
- Tingles aren't born, they're made. In FPTRR,
your character gets transformed into Tingle by Uncle Rupee - it's a curse that makes you his slave and means that when you run out of rupees, you die. After you kill him at the end of the game, various artifacts he leaves behind, like the book from Ripening Tingle's Balloon Trip of Love, are still able to transform you into a Tingle.
dies during the events of Freshly Picked Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland
- The land you visit in FPTRR is very likely to be the site of the future kingdoms of Labrynna and Holodrum (i.e. you meet members of the races seen in OoS/OoA who aren't found in any other game like the Salona/Subrosians and the Piratians).
- So basically, WW, FPTRR, OoS and OoA all take place in roughly the same place
Professor Beef
Banned
Oh god dammit. I shouldn't have clicked on that link, now I have the urge to play Wind Waker again. Not that that's a bad thing, but I don't own it. And the few times that I did have it, my save file would somehow always get deleted after I beat the game so I could never play as Link in his jammies.Dark Schala said:
Crumpet Trumpet
Banned
What the fuck. I need to play that Tingle game.
I've always loved this WW music even though it only appeared in a trailer and the official soundtrack:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1AVNa8q8T8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1AVNa8q8T8
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
There are three, but FPTRR is the one that gives the most amount of backstory for the main Zelda games. Tingle's Balloon Fight really doesn't have any story to speak of except for a line or two in the manual and RTBToL all takes place inside a book.Crumpet Trumpet said:
shadyspace
Banned
lol and we know for a fact that the Tingle game is in-continuity?
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
I found this in my YouTube favourites. I completely forgot about this. So cute!
The Wind Waker - Wii Edition
The Wind Waker - Wii Edition
Is Irodzuki Tingle no Koi no Balloon Trip worth importing?viciouskillersquirrel said:
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
I consider all the Nintendo-published games in the Zelda franchise to be part of the continuity until something new comes out that retcons or supersedes the events in that game.
For instance, OoT 3D supersedes OoT. ALttP (GBA version) supersedes ALttP.
The Tingle games are canon until Nintendo say otherwise.
I have played the other two to completion and they're really only worth playing if you're a Zelda superfan. FPTRR is actually fun (and playable in English), but the bartering mechanic is broken, so you're best off playing with a guide. TBL is basically Balloon Fight with a Tingle skin and nothing happens when you beat it except some text to say "ALL LEVELS CLEAR".
For instance, OoT 3D supersedes OoT. ALttP (GBA version) supersedes ALttP.
The Tingle games are canon until Nintendo say otherwise.
From what I've seen, it's a pretty text-heavy RPG. Unless you speak Japanese, I wouldn't bother (I didn't).Dark Schala said:
I have played the other two to completion and they're really only worth playing if you're a Zelda superfan. FPTRR is actually fun (and playable in English), but the bartering mechanic is broken, so you're best off playing with a guide. TBL is basically Balloon Fight with a Tingle skin and nothing happens when you beat it except some text to say "ALL LEVELS CLEAR".
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
viciouskillersquirrel said:
Problems with this:
- The cut text in FSA may imply it was at one point meant to be something, but it isn't that any more. If we start pretending games count as what they were earlier in development, everything will fall apart. MANY of the games were radically different early on, the Oracles are a prime example. All you can honestly count is what's present in the final release. So "FSA was meant to be the LTTP backstory" even if it happens to be true is only a fun bit of development trivia, NOT a reason to affect timeline discussion in any capacity.
- You are attributing universe-altering intent to what are much more likely just Fun Gameplay Whatevers. Case in point, the Palace of the Four Sword in LTTP. You assume it implies a connection, I assume it's there just for fun. "You beat Four Swords, we'll give you a Four Swords bonus in LTTP, how nice." Just like how the OOT boss rush when link goes to sleep does not mean he constantly relives his greatest battles every night. Your tendency to consider EVERYTHING in a game as coming from universe intent is not going to serve you well. When I started injecting a dose of reality into my thinking, things started to come together much more satisfyingly.
- There is no indication that OOT, even with what it changes in its telling of the Imprisoning War, was ever considered by Nintendo to have "changed too much." Interviews make very clear that it is the Imprisoning War, including interviews held AFTER its release. That was the intent, and it never stopped being the intent. You can make assumptions based on FSA text, but the fact of the matter is that they are exactly that: assumptions. Those snippets of text could in fact mean something quite different from your assumptions, they could be from an early tech demo that turned into FSA later, they could be in there cause one developer put them in just for fun in a proof of concept. The reality with OOT as I see it is simple: Nintendo retconed stuff to make it more interesting. "Let's put Link in that story." The inconsistency exists without purpose, and there is no plan to "correct" it. The odds are in favor of FSA LTTP references being homages, not purposeful universe declarations.
Phantom Ganon's swords does not imply any kind of parallel dimension travel whatsoever. If it implies ANYTHING (as it's much more likely just a fun easter egg, and not something with true meaning), it's just means that Zubora and Gabora are making swords in both timelines. I'm sure they were making them long before OOT split the timeline anyway.
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
You just said the magic words. It's really too bad I spent my importing budget so fast this quarter. Hopefully next spring then. Thanks.viciouskillersquirrel said:
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
I never once made a reference to cut text in FSA (though I know the text you're talking about). FSA is the story of the rise (which happens offscreen) and imprisonment of Ganon, a different Ganon than that of OoT.Tathanen said:
The re-use of locations says to me that the two games are meant to be connected. Also, the fact that the
Forest of Light becomes the Lost Woods thanks to the intervention of the Deku Scrubs and the Dark Mirror
sealed Ganon in the Four Sword
found the shards of the same sword in the Dark World
Basically, why would they put in these clues out in the open if you weren't meant to take them at face value?
The Palace of the Four Sword isn't just off in some corner in ALttP, it's Ganon's Palace in the Dark World. I don't think that what you're doing is injecting reality so much as ignoring inconvenient facts that don't fit your current beliefs.Tathanen said:
I didn't really think FSA was the ALttP backstory either until I actually played the game. Unless you willfully ignore its obvious allusions to ALttP, I can't see how you even need to make reference to snippets of deleted text.Tathanen said:
If Termina were subject to a timeline split (which I doubt), then Zubora and Gabora couldn't make swords in the adult timeline anyway, because Link only ever stopped the moon from crashing in the child timeline. It's cross-timeline travel or bust, buster.Tathanen said:
Also, way to just totally ignore the Legend of the Fairy.
@ OoT being the IW
No there hasn't been a multitude of interviews that says this. There are only two and they're from people who aren't involved with the story. The thought of OoT = IW is just a fan myth at best, like when people say Toriyama wanted to end Dragonball with Freeza. It is just misinformation at best.
Even if it was, it isn't now. Ganon is officially dead in both timelines.
People think FSA is a prequel to ALttP because it's made by the same staff, features the same overworld, and explains where Ganon got his trident from. In FSA you seal Ganon into the Four Sword, which appears broken inside the Pyramid of Power in the GBA version of ALttP. Most theorists assume this means how Ganon came back, making FSA a direct Prequel. This doesn't mean FSA = Imprisoning War however.
No there hasn't been a multitude of interviews that says this. There are only two and they're from people who aren't involved with the story. The thought of OoT = IW is just a fan myth at best, like when people say Toriyama wanted to end Dragonball with Freeza. It is just misinformation at best.
Even if it was, it isn't now. Ganon is officially dead in both timelines.
People think FSA is a prequel to ALttP because it's made by the same staff, features the same overworld, and explains where Ganon got his trident from. In FSA you seal Ganon into the Four Sword, which appears broken inside the Pyramid of Power in the GBA version of ALttP. Most theorists assume this means how Ganon came back, making FSA a direct Prequel. This doesn't mean FSA = Imprisoning War however.