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The Legend of Zelda Community Thread: Timelines, Retreads and Colors Oh My

Tathanen

Tathanen

Get Inside Her!
viciouskillersquirrel said:
My point is that even if OoT was the IW at the time of release, WW came and cut that connection. FSA isn't the IW either, but it does provide ALttP Ganon with an origin story.

It's implied that after Ganon was sealed in the Four Sword in FSA, it was put into the Sacred Realm, hence its presence in the Dark World in ALttP. He busts out of the sword and finds himself in the Sacred Realm. From there, it's not much of a stretch to imagine the IW happening some time afterward.

Bam! New Ganon, new backstory.
Click to expand...

Where was that ever implied? The sword is there in GBA LTTP, sure. But is that all you're using? Was there something I missed in FSA regarding the sword being sealed in the Sacred Realm? And why on Earth would they put it there, of all places? "We've got this perfectly functional shadowy Dark World here in FSA, but let's go ahead and seal Ganon into the sacred realm, which we don't even acknowledge exists in this game. The realm that we as a people don't even know the LOCATION to, if we are talking about a pre-LTTP game. Pollute our most treasured of locales with his evil, and hey why not put him right next to the Triforce, that sounds like a good idea."

This is a huge and timeline-shattering notion, that of FSA being a LTTP prequel, it changes the nature of so many things, but it looks like the lynchpin for the whole thing is "the bonus dungeon in the GBA re-release has a Four-Swords theme." Which couldn't possibly just be because LTTP was packed in with Four Swords, and you unlock the dungeon via said Four Swords, no this tiny innocent thing has to imply that EVERYTHING WE KNOW IS WRONG.

It makes no sense whatsoever. Ganon put into the Sacred Realm, of all places, not by necessity but by choice? A "Dark World" in FSA with no real connection to the sacred realm, let's just have two games in sequence that happen to have Dark Worlds that are completely different? If FSA isn't the imprisoning war but comes before it, you're telling me he gets sealed into the sacred realm, gets out, then quests in search of the realm and breaks in (ala the IW story), and then gets sealed in it again? With OOT, FSA, and the IW, you're telling me that Ganon was sealed into the Sacred Realm THREE SEPARATE TIMES?

And this is less inconsistent than what I've suggested for a timeline?
 
D

Desiato

Member
Question: I managed to get my hands on Oracle of Ages and Oracle of Seasons. Which am I supposed to play first? Is there a chronological order or something?
 
M

Mama Robotnik

Member
Desiato said:
Question: I managed to get my hands on Oracle of Ages and Oracle of Seasons. Which am I supposed to play first? Is there a chronological order or something?
Click to expand...
Either is appropriate, as the games are designed to lead into each other.

Though if I recall correctly, Seasons proved (to me) to be more challenging than Ages, with a more hostile overworld and a tougher last boss. So if you like a progressive difficulty curve, starting with Ages might make sense.
 
D

Desiato

Member
Mama Robotnik said:
Either is appropriate, as the games are designed to lead into each other.

Though if I recall correctly, Seasons proved (to me) to be more challenging than Ages, with a more hostile overworld and a tougher last boss. So if you like a progressive difficulty curve, starting with Ages might make sense.
Click to expand...
Okay, thanks! That sounds like the way to go.
 
X

xandaca

Member
Not sure how to do SPOILERS here, so don't read below this point if you're trying to go into Skyward Sword fresh.

I've read that
Ghirahim isn't the game's big bad and that he's working for someone - I really hope we get a different villain to Ganon this time around. There are only so many times that fighting the same villain, even in different incarnations, can be satisfying. That said, if he is going to be in the game, it would be quite cool were the story to explore what first turned him evil, since this is apparently the earliest adventure in the timeline.

EDIT: Thanks to Jzero15 for letting me know how to cover up possible spoilers.
 
A

apana

Member
Suairyu said:
It's more interesting to break down the recurring themes of the series rather than the plot anyway.

Take Ganon, Link and Zelda, for instance. Three individuals fated to always meet each other in time again and again. For Ganon, he has to remember each meeting and as the centuries pass he loses more and more of his 'humanity' and becomes more and more the pig beast.

If the gods can intervene on a whim by flooding the world, surely they have the power at any moment to break this cycle. Yet they don't. The answer is clear: the gods want this endless cycle to continue. Maybe it's all for some divine reason and purpose or perhaps they simply find it amusing. Not a lot to do after you've already made the world, you see. The neverending three-way conflict over the Triforce has to be AAA entertainment. Or maybe still this is all some divine punishment for Ganon for his hubris in trying to take the power of the gods. He has to slowly lose himself to a pig form over centuries, always beaten by the same plucky lad, over and over, never allowed to win, never allowed to truly die.

The gods are cruel.
Click to expand...

Gods by definition are "cruel". If they create universes in which their creations suffer that can be perceived as being cruel. The logic people use is that the gods use suffering as a teaching tool, as a way to move people forward in their personal growth. I personally think there is more than one Ganondorf, or there will be at some point. Ganondorf died in Wind Waker and Twilight and I think a new one will come into the world when the old Ganondorf is completely forgotten.
 
F

Forkball

Member
I used to have a pretty good Zelda timeline that made some sense until they did all sorts of craziness with Minish Cap and FSA etc. This is excluding Skyward Sword.

So OoT is first, Link does his thing and goes back in time to relive his childhood (amazing reward, by the way). He then searches for Navi in the woods and gets sent to Termina and MM happens. After he comes back from Termina, it turns out hundreds of years have passed in Hyrule. He goes to live with a fake Uncle since he doesn't know what else to do, and LttP happens. After that game ends, he goes on a boat, crashes, and LA happens. When he comes back, OoA/OoS happens. Then once AGAIN turns out a lot of years pass in Hyrule, and Zelda I and II happen. Link finally dies, Ganon floods everything, WW and the DS games happen.

However, a bunch of stuff doesn't make sense. If you wanted to do the One Link theory that I express (which is a big stretch, don't get me wrong), he can't be in both TP and LttP. So MM Link could come back and live his life as a cowboy ala TP and LttP is a new Link. Also the Ganon execution scene in TP makes no sense. It is implied that the sages imprisoned him after OoT, so did they just bring him out so they could kill him? How the hell did he keep the Triforce of Power all that time?

Also the whole alternate worlds hulabaloo. Labyrnna and Holodrum just seem like random dimensions, but there's evidence that shows that the inhabitants of Termina and Twilight Realm were once in Hyrule. I guess the goddess' solution to everything is to just shove rulebreakers into different dimensions (which always fucking backfires).

I don't even know where the hell FSA/Minish Cap fall into the story, I guess before OoT, but it looks like it will clash with SS.

The only solution I know is that Nintendo is just making it up as they go along. Every time a new Zelda comes out the fanbase thinks it will explain the gaps in the timeline, but instead it just makes stuff even more confusing. When TP was announced, many assumed that it would explain how Hyrule would be flooded, the link between Termina and Hyrule, a lead in to LttP etc. Nope, all it did was just introduce more stuff to confuse us and didn't answer any previous questions.
 
Lord Ghirahim

Lord Ghirahim

Member
I don't think TWW and TP's creators want Ganondorf to ever come back. In TWW he lost the Triforce, got the Master Sword lodged in his brain, got petrified and sunk to the bottom of the sea. In TP, he got stabbed with the Master Sword, lost the Triforce, and was betrayed by his slave at the very end. They really want him out of the picture.
 
Jzero

Jzero

Member
xandaca said:
Not sure how to do SPOILERS here, so don't read below this point if you're trying to go into Skyward Sword fresh.

I've read that Ghirahim isn't the game's big bad and that he's working for someone - I really hope we get a different villain to Ganon this time around. There are only so many times that fighting the same villain, even in different incarnations, can be satisfying. That said, if he is going to be in the game, it would be quite cool were the story to explore what first turned him evil, since this is apparently the earliest adventure in the timeline.
Click to expand...
[./SPOILER] without the dot.
 
B

BY2K

Membero Americo
Lord Ghirahim said:
I don't think TWW and TP's creators want Ganondorf to ever come back.
Click to expand...

Yes, because getting rid of one of the most popular video games villains is such a good idea.

More seriously, we'll see Ganon/Ganondorf again someday.
 
Tathanen

Tathanen

Get Inside Her!
Forkball said:
The only solution I know is that Nintendo is just making it up as they go along. Every time a new Zelda comes out the fanbase thinks it will explain the gaps in the timeline, but instead it just makes stuff even more confusing. When TP was announced, many assumed that it would explain how Hyrule would be flooded, the link between Termina and Hyrule, a lead in to LttP etc. Nope, all it did was just introduce more stuff to confuse us and didn't answer any previous questions.
Click to expand...

This is why I have to be REALLY careful with my expectations. They colored TP for me when I first played t hem, I don't want that to happen again. All I'm going to rely on from SS is the Master Sword origin story. Any hopes around the interlopers story from TP, and various other potential backstories, has to be pushed from my mind. Gotta enjoy the game just for what it is, not for what I want it to be ahead of time.

Also: was thinking about Labrynna and Holodrum last night, there's no way those are just normal places. If their names weren't enough to imply something, Jabu Jabu existing fully adult in the present, and young in the past, in this non-Hyrule place, makes the whole thing seem suspect. A lot of it I chalk up to Capcom just having no idea what they were doing and Nintendo not putting the story through any rigor, but back when I wrote up crazy ideas for how things could work, I put Labrynna and Holodrum INSIDE the Triforce. They were ethereal worlds within the Triforces of Courage (Wisdom? I forget) and Power. Helps explain why so much of what's in those worlds seems to be pulled directly from Hyrule and its history, and the physical incarnations of the goddesses that inhabit them.

These days I don't know if I'll consider them to still be worlds WITHIN the Triforce, what with my no-fanfiction rule, but I still like the idea of those places being strongly tied to parts of the Triforce in some capacity. I think the goddesses, the character repeats, and the fact that the Triforce ITSELF sends you to them implies a strong connection.

Lord Ghirahim said:
I don't think TWW and TP's creators want Ganondorf to ever come back. In TWW he lost the Triforce, got the Master Sword lodged in his brain, got petrified and sunk to the bottom of the sea. In TP, he got stabbed with the Master Sword, lost the Triforce, and was betrayed by his slave at the very end. They really want him out of the picture.
Click to expand...

Wind Waker always seemed like they wanted him to come back, to me. Killing him is one thing, but imprisoning him in stone? With the sword sticking out? That's just BEGGING to be found some day, and have someone innocently pull the sword out, resurrecting him.
 
A

apana

Member
Forkball said:
I used to have a pretty good Zelda timeline that made some sense until they did all sorts of craziness with Minish Cap and FSA etc. This is excluding Skyward Sword.

So OoT is first, Link does his thing and goes back in time to relive his childhood (amazing reward, by the way). He then searches for Navi in the woods and gets sent to Termina and MM happens. After he comes back from Termina, it turns out hundreds of years have passed in Hyrule. He goes to live with a fake Uncle since he doesn't know what else to do, and LttP happens. After that game ends, he goes on a boat, crashes, and LA happens. When he comes back, OoA/OoS happens. Then once AGAIN turns out a lot of years pass in Hyrule, and Zelda I and II happen. Link finally dies, Ganon floods everything, WW and the DS games happen.

However, a bunch of stuff doesn't make sense. If you wanted to do the One Link theory that I express (which is a big stretch, don't get me wrong), he can't be in both TP and LttP. So MM Link could come back and live his life as a cowboy ala TP and LttP is a new Link. Also the Ganon execution scene in TP makes no sense. It is implied that the sages imprisoned him after OoT, so did they just bring him out so they could kill him? How the hell did he keep the Triforce of Power all that time?

Also the whole alternate worlds hulabaloo. Labyrnna and Holodrum just seem like random dimensions, but there's evidence that shows that the inhabitants of Termina and Twilight Realm were once in Hyrule. I guess the goddess' solution to everything is to just shove rulebreakers into different dimensions (which always fucking backfires).

I don't even know where the hell FSA/Minish Cap fall into the story, I guess before OoT, but it looks like it will clash with SS.

The only solution I know is that Nintendo is just making it up as they go along. Every time a new Zelda comes out the fanbase thinks it will explain the gaps in the timeline, but instead it just makes stuff even more confusing. When TP was announced, many assumed that it would explain how Hyrule would be flooded, the link between Termina and Hyrule, a lead in to LttP etc. Nope, all it did was just introduce more stuff to confuse us and didn't answer any previous questions.
Click to expand...

I love this idea. Termina is in another dimension or alternate world and when Link tries to get back to his world by travelling through the forest he ends up arriving in Hyrule at a different time period. I love the idea of a kid journeying through time. The only difference is that instead of a few hundred years into the future I would have him arrive about ten thousand years into the past and have him go through a story where he was instrumental in creating Hyrule.

I also feel that Hyrule shouldn't be in one geographic location. It should be an idea that moves along with people as they migrate over generations. That way you can have a lot of variety in terms of how Hyrule looks so you dont constantly need the same mountains and valleys etc.
 
Lord Ghirahim

Lord Ghirahim

Member
Tathanen said:
Wind Waker always seemed like they wanted him to come back, to me. Killing him is one thing, but imprisoning him in stone? With the sword sticking out? That's just BEGGING to be found some day, and have someone innocently pull the sword out, resurrecting him.
Click to expand...

Can't wait for the ST sequel where marine biology student Link and Princess Zelda have to visit Ancient Hyrule to retrieve the Master Sword for Nayru knows what.
2pyrtqq.jpg
 
R

Rehynn

Member
Lord Ghirahim said:
Can't wait for the ST sequel where marine biology student Link and Princess Zelda have to visit Ancient Hyrule to retrieve the Master Sword for Nayru knows what.
Click to expand...

Not sure if serious, but I actually want that game to happen.

The Legend of Zelda: The Sunken Kingdom. Hmmmm... the words taste good in my mouth.
 
B

Boney

Banned
Lord Ghirahim said:
I don't think TWW and TP's creators want Ganondorf to ever come back. In TWW he lost the Triforce, got the Master Sword lodged in his brain, got petrified and sunk to the bottom of the sea. In TP, he got stabbed with the Master Sword, lost the Triforce, and was betrayed by his slave at the very end. They really want him out of the picture.
Click to expand...
He loses the Triforce in WW as well?

I honestly don't remember.
 
Tathanen

Tathanen

Get Inside Her!
Boney said:
He loses the Triforce in WW as well?

I honestly don't remember.
Click to expand...

Well in WW, everyone loses the Triforce. The pieces come out and form the whole, and after the King's wish the Triforce disappears. Presumably back to the Sacred Realm, but who really knows where it actually went.
 
B

Boney

Banned
Tathanen said:
Well in WW, everyone loses the Triforce. The pieces come out and form the whole, and after the King's wish the Triforce disappears. Presumably back to the Sacred Realm, but who really knows where it actually went.
Click to expand...
that makes total sense.
 
A

apana

Member
xandaca said:
Not sure how to do SPOILERS here, so don't read below this point if you're trying to go into Skyward Sword fresh.

I've read that Ghirahim isn't the game's big bad and that he's working for someone - I really hope we get a different villain to Ganon this time around. There are only so many times that fighting the same villain, even in different incarnations, can be satisfying. That said, if he is going to be in the game, it would be quite cool were the story to explore what first turned him evil, since this is apparently the earliest adventure in the timeline.
Click to expand...

Of course because the dark interlopers will be the main villains. There will be a lot of interloping going on in this game.
 
T

Tuck

Member
Suairyu said:
It's more interesting to break down the recurring themes of the series rather than the plot anyway.

Take Ganon, Link and Zelda, for instance. Three individuals fated to always meet each other in time again and again. For Ganon, he has to remember each meeting and as the centuries pass he loses more and more of his 'humanity' and becomes more and more the pig beast.

If the gods can intervene on a whim by flooding the world, surely they have the power at any moment to break this cycle. Yet they don't. The answer is clear: the gods want this endless cycle to continue. Maybe it's all for some divine reason and purpose or perhaps they simply find it amusing. Not a lot to do after you've already made the world, you see. The neverending three-way conflict over the Triforce has to be AAA entertainment. Or maybe still this is all some divine punishment for Ganon for his hubris in trying to take the power of the gods. He has to slowly lose himself to a pig form over centuries, always beaten by the same plucky lad, over and over, never allowed to win, never allowed to truly die.

The gods are cruel.
Click to expand...

I think that because Ganondorf has the triforce of power, the gods can't do squat against him. He is immortal - all they can do is imprison him.
 
H

Holy Order Sol

Member
Tyeforce said:
However, this shows us that this is what the developers at one point intended Ganondorf to say. And the fact that it remains in the game's data says a lot. This wasn't just an idea that was tossed around early in development and shot down, this is something that was nearly in the finished game but was cut very late during production for whatever reason (probably because they decided it would be best to keep Ganondorf's final words short and simple, or something like that). Point is, this shows intent. This tells us that the multiple Ganondorf idea is indeed supported by Nintendo.
Click to expand...

You mean it was at one point. Nothing else can be inferred from what you just pointed out.
 
Lord Ghirahim

Lord Ghirahim

Member
Jackano said:
Ahah indeed!

Don't forget to post some nice pics when you have it! :)
Click to expand...

You'll have to wait until 2013 for pics, that's when I expect it to get shipped ;//
Their one "Master Arts" figure that's been released is pretty nice.
6z78tc.jpg
 
JaseMath

JaseMath

Member
Professor Beef said:
So what was up with Zant during the ending of TP? That's something I never got.
Click to expand...
I thought it was a visual cue for the moment Ganondorf dies, but then again, it could actually be Zant killing him...not sure how that works though.
 
S

Suairyu

Banned
SecretMoblin said:
I've always just treated that games that aren't clearly connected as fun, standalone titles.
Click to expand...
That's pretty much the only sane way to do it. Some games are very clear direct sequels to others, yet some games have multiple very clear direct sequels to the point of it not working at all.

I mean, by the very fact they have to keep making new games, they're forced to make it up as they go along. Even if they have an official order/timeline for internal use, there's no way that:
a) it has every future Zelda game to be made already in there
b) it is entirely consistent with the games themselves (see a)

Each game, minus whatever other game it may directly reference, is its own isolated 'legend' to play and enjoy. Think of it as a new interpretation on a famous theme.

My favourite approach was when Jeremy Parish gave his thoughts, which basically boiled down to legends being stories told over and over until they barely resemble the actual facts of history anymore. Attempting to construct a working timeline is a futile quest so just accept each game as a different bard's take on one particular tale.

Professor Beef said:
So what was up with Zant during the ending of TP? That's something I never got.
Click to expand...
Could be wrong because it's been years since I played it, but I thought after Ganon was sent to the Twilight realm he was in some bizarre spirit form? Zant first perceived him as a giant ball of fire. I always figured Zant was his link to physical existence, so at the end Zant snaps his own neck, killing Ganondorf.
 
G

Gravijah

Member
Suairyu said:
My favourite approach was when Jeremy Parish gave his thoughts, which basically boiled down to legends being stories told over and over until they barely resemble the actual facts of history anymore. Attempting to construct a working timeline is a futile quest so just accept each game as a different bard's take on one particular tale.
Click to expand...

they are all clearly connected with some kind of timeline, the easiest thing to do is accept that with a game series set over 25 irl years and hundreds of in game years, it's not going to be perfect and things will change.
 
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