• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power - Season 1

J

jason10mm

Gold Member
Kimahri said:
Smaug isn't the antagonist. He's an encounter. Try again.

The Hobbit is a perfect example, really.
Click to expand...
I think that if you polled children, somewhere north of 99.9999999% of them would say "the dragon is the bad guy!" in The Hobbit. Let's not get too pedantic. The Hobbit clearly has themes that resonate with adults and outside of the core story, that is what makes it Fine Literature(tm), but it is a fetch quest with a boss monster at the end.

But if you KNOW Sauron and Morgoth are out there, and in Middle-Earth this is basically THE DEVIL running around to some extent, it becomes very difficult to adjust stakes below this level. Do you think RoP is NOT gonna reference how destructive the One Ring will be, or hint at the wars to come? These big bads really adjust the scope of evil that audiences expect.

Could you make a nice anthology series pulling the smaller stories from Tolkien? ABSOLUTELY. Can you hang a BILLION DOLLAR epic on them? Highly doubtful.

I hope they build enough real shit that some small crew can come in, borrow assets, and make these side stories on a shoestring budget. But I don't think Amazon has access to really any of that stuff.

I dare say there is no market for a story of a meek hobbit, hen-pecked by his shrew of a wife, that decides to strike out on his own, leaving his mewling bratty kids behind, and becomes a pirate on the high seas with random adventures that in no way relate back to the primary struggle of elves, kingdoms of men, and The Enemy.

Fuck....now I kinda want that! :p
 
AJUMP23

AJUMP23

Parody of actual AJUMP23
Kimahri said:
Smaug isn't the antagonist. He's an encounter. Try again.

The Hobbit is a perfect example, really.

Edit: was there an antagonist in kingkiller chronicles? Can't remember.
Click to expand...
Gandalf set up the whole expedition because he worried about Smaug hooking up with the Sauron. Together they could not be stopped.

Why did Gandalf agree to help Thorin destroy Smaug?
The Theory — Many Lord of the Rings fans believe that one of the key reasons Gandalf agreed to help Thorin and the other Dwarves on their quest to destroy Smaug was because he wanted to make sure the dragon was gone before Sauron began his next bid to take over Middle-earth.
Click to expand...
 
FunkMiller

FunkMiller

Member
Kimahri said:
Smaug isn't the antagonist. He's an encounter. Try again.

The Hobbit is a perfect example, really.

Edit: was there an antagonist in kingkiller chronicles? Can't remember.
Click to expand...

Ice Cube What GIF


The entire plot is about reclaiming the lonely mountain from Smaug. It’s a quest to defeat him. The same way LotR is a quest to defeat Sauron.
 
Hari Seldon

Hari Seldon

Member
jason10mm said:
I think that if you polled children, somewhere north of 99.9999999% of them would say "the dragon is the bad guy!" in The Hobbit. Let's not get too pedantic. The Hobbit clearly has themes that resonate with adults and outside of the core story, that is what makes it Fine Literature(tm), but it is a fetch quest with a boss monster at the end.

But if you KNOW Sauron and Morgoth are out there, and in Middle-Earth this is basically THE DEVIL running around to some extent, it becomes very difficult to adjust stakes below this level. Do you think RoP is NOT gonna reference how destructive the One Ring will be, or hint at the wars to come? These big bads really adjust the scope of evil that audiences expect.

Could you make a nice anthology series pulling the smaller stories from Tolkien? ABSOLUTELY. Can you hang a BILLION DOLLAR epic on them? Highly doubtful.

I hope they build enough real shit that some small crew can come in, borrow assets, and make these side stories on a shoestring budget. But I don't think Amazon has access to really any of that stuff.

I dare say there is no market for a story of a meek hobbit, hen-pecked by his shrew of a wife, that decides to strike out on his own, leaving his mewling bratty kids behind, and becomes a pirate on the high seas with random adventures that in no way relate back to the primary struggle of elves, kingdoms of men, and The Enemy.

Fuck....now I kinda want that! :p
Click to expand...
I thought the entire point of this Amazon series was to tell the story that leads up to the end of the second age, which does have Sauron as the big bad guy. IIRC that is the forging of the rings, Sauron infiltrating Numenour, tons of shit with the Dwarves, etc. Lots of cool lore, the only question is if Amazon hired writers that can pull this off.
 
J

jason10mm

Gold Member
Hari Seldon said:
I thought the entire point of this Amazon series was to tell the story that leads up to the end of the second age, which does have Sauron as the big bad guy. IIRC that is the forging of the rings, Sauron infiltrating Numenour, tons of shit with the Dwarves, etc. Lots of cool lore, the only question is if Amazon hired writers that can pull this off.
Click to expand...
I agree, that seems to be the plot, the question is just how focused is the show and how many random, meandering, unconnected side stories will we have to sit through? The "it takes place across ALL OF MIDDLE-EARTH" is a bit concerning that it starts off with like 6 stories that may never connect up. Naturally if all of these stories are dynamite then it won't matter, but experience tells me that shows like this (seems to be) collapse under their own weight far more often than not.

So is there a great adaptation of Sauron getting them rings out there somewhere? Absolutely. Is this gonna be it? "Future Uncertain" :p
 
sol_bad

sol_bad

Member
Azurro said:
This guy right here is the audience of this mess. Of course it's going to be bad, but as long as represhentashion is part of the creation of the show/movie, guys like the one right here say they will be there.

Activist watchers sadly are either a tiny minority, are broke af or don't bother to actually watch it, so that's why they usually fail. But hey, stunning and brave angry GINO and strong black woman dwarf will be iconic moments to be remember for eternity.
Click to expand...

Yep, I'm a hardcore activist, you got me. Uhuh.
 
J

jason10mm

Gold Member
FunkMiller said:
Mid boss? What are you talking about? This isn’t a video game. Smaug is the chief antagonist of The Hobbit. Good grief.
Click to expand...
No, no, no, let's not be too hasty. The Battle of Five Armies is clearly Smaugs second or third boss stage :p

Narratively I felt that The Hobbit ends with the defeat of Smaug. The Bo5A segment, while cool as a kid, is really the epilogue to Thorin and his refusal to yield A SINGLE INCH in the face of overwhelming odds. It is a great character manifestation for him and a telling tale of politics in M-E but from a story perspective it's over at that point.
 
K

Kimahri

Banned
I kid, a little (disgaea 1 reference), but let me rephrase a bit.

My copy of The Hobbit is 307 pages. Smaug is first encountered on page 217. He's dead on page 252.

He's talked about beforehand, but he's really not a big part of the book, and the story is not over with hos death.

Even so, this is a distraction. The claim was that a story needed something like Morgoth or Sauron, because those are the only ones worth telling. Smaug isn't either of those (bringing up fan theories is irrelevant btw).

My point was that there are plenty of stories to be told in this universe that doesn't center around the great big evil. The Hobbit is one of those stories.

There are many stories during the many years of history Tolkien wrote to choose from. Will it be as big an epic? I dunno, depends on how good the writing is. I'm not gonna bother listing, it's been done already.
 
K

Kimahri

Banned
sinnergy said:
If this turns out to be good , lol at all the crow that will be eaten 🤣
Click to expand...
I'll happily eat crow. I want it to be good. I just really don't like anything I've seen so far.

Put no trust in that Collider review though, they gave Wheel of Time an A.
 
Hari Seldon

Hari Seldon

Member
sinnergy said:
If this turns out to be good , lol at all the crow that will be eaten 🤣

crow GIF
Click to expand...
I think it will be pretty good, it also has the huge advantage over stuff like Wheel of Time, Witcher, and GoT in that it is TV-14 so it can pull in far more people. I will be watching with my oldest daughter, she will never watch GoT in my house, even if she is 30 and still living here lol.
 
Last edited:
strange headache

strange headache

Banned
sol_bad said:
YEP, I'm a fan boy cos I'm waiting to see the actual show before I pass judgement!!!
Click to expand...

All you need are pretty pictures to look at, explosions, pop references and cameos. They will turn LOTR into a Marvel-like cinematic universe. So this soulless design-by-committee corporate product should be right up your alley.
 
Last edited:
FunkMiller

FunkMiller

Member
Kimahri said:
I kid, a little (disgaea 1 reference), but let me rephrase a bit.

My copy of The Hobbit is 307 pages. Smaug is first encountered on page 217. He's dead on page 252.

He's talked about beforehand, but he's really not a big part of the book, and the story is not over with hos death.

Even so, this is a distraction. The claim was that a story needed something like Morgoth or Sauron, because those are the only ones worth telling. Smaug isn't either of those (bringing up fan theories is irrelevant btw).

My point was that there are plenty of stories to be told in this universe that doesn't center around the great big evil. The Hobbit is one of those stories.
Click to expand...

It really wasn't. The claim is that you require a decent antagonist to hang a story around in a fantasy epic. You've resolutely failed to prove otherwise. Even in this very post, where you claim The Hobbit does not centre around a great big evil - despite the fact the plot centres around destroying a great big evil.

And the amount of pages a villain is in a book does not matter, otherwise Sauron isn't much of an enemy either, is he? Antagonists do not have to physically feature much in a story to be the driving force behind the narrative.

And, to bring it back around to Rings Of Power, none of the promotion for this series has in any way established the antagonists, protagonists, driving force of the plot, motivations for any of the characters, or anything resembling a coherent storyline. This is not a good sign at all. If you can't sum up your story in an efficient, easy to grasp manner, then the chances are you don't have a very good story to tell.

And story is all that matters.

If anyone is looking forward to this show just because of the way it looks, or purely because it's based on Tolkien's world, then they're idiots - and contributing to the reason why we get so much asinine crap shovelled onto us by entertainment companies.

Lord Of The Rings is a masterpiece of storytelling. Why can't the people responsible for this show even tell us what their story is?
 
Last edited:
K

Kimahri

Banned
FunkMiller said:
It really wasn't. The claim is that you require a decent antagonist to hang a story around in a fantasy epic. You've resolutely failed to prove otherwise. Even in this very post, where you claim The Hobbit does not centre around a great big evil - despite the fact the plot centres around destroying a great big evil.

And the amount of pages a villain is in a book does not matter, otherwise Sauron isn't much of an enemy either, is he? Antagonists do not have to physically feature much in a story to be the driving force behind the narrative.

And, to bring it back around to Rings Of Power, none of the promotion for this series has in any way established the antagonists, protagonists, driving force of the plot, motivations for any of the characters, or anything resembling a coherent storyline. This is not a good sign at all. If you can't sum up your story in an efficient, easy to grasp manner, then the chances are you don't have a very good story to tell.

And story is all that matters.

If anyone is looking forward to this show just because of the way it looks, or purely because it's based on Tolkien's world, then they're idiots - and contributing to the reason why we get so much asinine crap shovelled onto us by entertainment companies.

Lord Of The Rings is a masterpiece of storytelling. Why can't the people responsible for this show even tell us what their story is?
Click to expand...
Great evil meaning Morgoth and Sauron. I thought that was clear.
 
J

jason10mm

Gold Member
Trunx81 said:
„has potential” is exactly what my mom said about me in school. We all knew how wrong that was.
Click to expand...
Yeag, damning with faint praise much?

But for this show, ESPECIALLY since it's from the tech octopus that is Amazon, I'd REALLY REALLY need receipts from anyone reviewing it about who they work for, where they earn their money from, even who is hosting their stuff because if ANY OF IT is tied to amazon (thus virtually everyone in this space, I suspect) then that is a HUGE caveat to their "opinion". Amazon is just too pervasive and vindictive to be above punishing negative commentary and they can reach ALMOST EVERYONE.

This is your dystopian corporate nightmare cyberpunk scenario, right here!
 
J

jason10mm

Gold Member
Oberstein said:
Huh... LoTR and Hobbit had big budgets too.... but Ok.
Click to expand...
I don't think he was referring to the budget, but the faceless souless corporation behind it. The LOTR movies FEEL like an artistic expression from Jackson, despite their budget. I'm guessing this show lacks a singular vision to elevate it from a committee assemblage to a creative epic.
 
Come On Tars

Come On Tars

Member
Man, everything just looks off about this. LOTR had an authenticity to the look due to Jacksons lack of greenscreening everything. Even by ROTK it was leaning too heavy on that. The Hobbit had a videogame cutscene look to it that's off putting. Now this is a whole new level above that :(
 
NecrosaroIII

NecrosaroIII

Ultimate DQ Fan
Are you degenerates really debating whether or not Smaug is the antagonist of the Hobbit (yes he is). At least in the book. Even though the story continues, it's still dealing with the consequences of his defeat.

In Lord of the Rings, it continues on for another couple hundred pages after Sauron's defeat, ending with Saruman's death in the Shire. But I wouldn't call Saruman the main antagonist of LotR.
 
PaddyOCanager

PaddyOCanager

Member
NecrosaroIII said:
Are you degenerates really debating whether or not Smaug is the antagonist of the Hobbit (yes he is). At least in the book. Even though the story continues, it's still dealing with the consequences of his defeat.

In Lord of the Rings, it continues on for another couple hundred pages after Sauron's defeat, ending with Saruman's death in the Shire. But I wouldn't call Saruman the main antagonist of LotR.
Click to expand...
We've moved on. Now we have confirmation bias that the new show sucks. Get with the program and choose your side lest you be caught in the crossfire.
 
AJUMP23

AJUMP23

Parody of actual AJUMP23
NecrosaroIII said:
Are you degenerates really debating whether or not Smaug is the antagonist of the Hobbit (yes he is). At least in the book. Even though the story continues, it's still dealing with the consequences of his defeat.

In Lord of the Rings, it continues on for another couple hundred pages after Sauron's defeat, ending with Saruman's death in the Shire. But I wouldn't call Saruman the main antagonist of LotR.
Click to expand...
No we are just trying to help one moron see the error of his ways.
 
N

nightmare-slain

Banned
Last edited by a moderator:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power Still Reportedly on Track for Five Seasons Despite Ratings Decline
News
27
2K
SJRB replied
Rings of Power Season 2 Trailer Released
News 7 8 9 10 11
523
28K
AJUMP23 replied
The Lord of the Rings: The War of the Rohirrim | Official Trailer | Dec. 11 (Internationally) Dec. 13 (US)
2
53
2K
Oberstein replied
Warner Bros. Shuts Down 15 Year Old Lord of the Rings: The Hunt for Gollum Fan Film After New Movie Reveal
11
1K
TheInfamousKira replied
IGN Live - Borderlands, PowerWash Simulator, LOTR: The Rings of Power, and More (how exciting, right...?)
Event
20
1K
Saber replied
Top Bottom